1068: Tactical options

[pendell]

*Nods* Thank you. Total Defense does indeed seem like a reasonable option.

Diplomacy is cross-class and Roy doesn't seem to have ranks in it, so trying to persuade her that Thrym wants to end the world is unlikely to work, but there's no reason not to try it.

That's right; Talking is a free action and doesn't impact the combat actions. Sure, why not? It doesn't cost anything and he might roll a 20.

... The one thing I like about 3.5 is there's a 5% of unqualified success for just about everything. That is soooo much higher than the real world for similar ventures it's not even funny.

E again to add:

Now that I think about , the reason Roy might want to taunt is the same as in the battle with Thog. Thog was already angry, but taunting him was useful to get him to ram into the architecture and have the building land on him.

Likewise, taunting might work if Roy can provoke the giantess to charge him, miss, and go sailing off the Mechane.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I'm afraid there's nothing you like about D&D 3.5.

A 20 on an attack roll always hits, but a 20 on a skill check is just "one point higher than a 19"; if what you're trying to convince someone of has a Diplomacy or Bluff DC of 35, and your total skill check after all modifiers is <=14, you just plain aren't going to be believed. Similarly, if the DM decides for some reason to make you roll Balance to walk across a room, the DC's likely to be zero or less and rolling a 1 will not mean you fail.

[KorvinStarmast]

Probably go Total Defense; as far as Roy is aware, he has every reason to expect reinforcements imminently (from Elan, from the Mechane's crew, from Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar), and she doesn't. Diplomacy is cross-class and Roy doesn't seem to have ranks in it, so trying to persuade her that Thrym wants to end the world is unlikely to work, but there's no reason not to try it.

The only flaw in this approach is the rest of the puny humans on the Mechane, three of whom are already chutney, one of whom is tied up, one of whom is going all drama queen and screwing things up for all and sundry, and various of whom are needed to sail the ship. Felix helped to fight off the giant on the stern, so he may try to make an effort against the giant. With Roy distracting the giant, Felix may, if a rogue, get a sneak attack opportunity. Hard to say.

If giant ignores Roy's full defense since his sword is gone, she can wreak bloody havoc all over the Mechane. So Roy needs to be actively trying to find a way to get her to rush him and, a la Belkar versus the Vamp Goliath at the God's Moot, trip or shove her over the side.

Full defensive needs, IMO, something like a taunt or other pro active effort to keep her focus on him. If she destroys the Mechane's crew she gets a mission kill, with the result being that Roy can't get to the Dwarf Council in time.

[Kish]

Note that I answered the question asked--what would I do if I was Roy. Not "what would I do if I knew the exact situation somehow and was in Roy's position."

"Wait for one of three groups of reinforcements that are respectively: tied up with a mutiny, repeatedly fizzling Mending while hanging from a wildly swinging rope, and lost" is of course a useless plan, but Roy knows none of that. From his perspective, the crew of the Mechane are his reliable allies, Elan must be done mending the balloon by now, and Vaarsuvius, Haley, and Belkar will probably be getting back any second.

[KorvinStarmast]

Note that I answered the question asked--what would I do if I was Roy. Not "what would I do if I knew the exact situation somehow and was in Roy's position."

Roy knows he can't lose the ship. Roy knows that he has to get to Dwarf Council on time. He knows this each waking moment that they travel.

Roy know that he can't let the lady giant win this fight with him. Roy, is, as we all know, a high int fighter.

Roy does not know

that the crew of the Mechane are his reliable allies as there's just been a mutiny. He can't deal with that until giant is gone.

Elan must be done mending the balloon by now ..

He does not know that, he's busy fighting two, and now one, giant.
Vaarsuvius, Haley, and Belkar will probably be getting back any second.

He does not know that (any second) either, given that the Mechane has strayed from its path.

His tactics have to account for what he does know, to include shouting up at Elan to see how the repair is going while he keeps the giant's attention on him ...

[Mordar]

I think the play has to be the slain giant's battle axe...the belt of giant strength should allow use, perhaps at a not-insignificant penalty...

Now, that may come before, during or after the Full Defense gambit...but I do think there's a decent chance the surviving giant would eventually batter through the defense and lay in some more heavy damage.

- M

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the play has to be the slain giant's battle axe...the belt of giant strength should allow use, perhaps at a not-insignificant penalty...

By the rules that run OotS, he cannot use the giant's axe... as an axe. He might still be able to snap off the head, and use it as a quarterstaff.

(To be clear, I am not predicting this will be the case. I am in fact not predicting anything at all. It diminishes my enjoyment of the comic to attempt to predict minor plot developments)

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

By the rules that run OotS, he cannot use the giant's axe... as an axe. He might still be able to snap off the head, and use it as a quarterstaff.

Or as an orderstick. Roy would be the only person proficient in that, thanks to Elan's long ago prediction about Orderer Stickier

[SaintRidley]

Unless Roy has the Monkey Grip feat, the giant's axe is out of bounds for him. A two-handed weapon sized for a large creature is otherwise impossible for a Medium creature to wield at all.

[factotum]

Roy does not know

that the crew of the Mechane are his reliable allies as there's just been a mutiny. He can't deal with that until giant is gone.

I think Kish is assuming that Roy doesn't know about the mutiny, which seems reasonable to me--he was kind of busy with a bunch of frost giants at the point Andi whacked Bandana across the head, and was furthermore at the opposite end of the ship from what was happening there.

[Kish]

It's that or assume Roy has been spending the entire fight aware of, but actively and deliberately ignoring, something that Thog would realize directly impacts what he's doing.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's that or assume Roy has been spending the entire fight aware of, but actively and deliberately ignoring, something that Thog would realize directly impacts what he's doing.

Of, he's aware of it but can't do anything about it since he had two giants in his face and he knows he has to deal with them ... 1 down one 1 to go. With Roy's high Int and high level, I think he has the Situational Awareness to handle a lot of info at once and still function well.

With him Facing Aft for much of the fight, he's likely able to see a ruckus up there, though mostly with peripheral vision as the giants are large ... and they occupy the bulk of his attention.

[Jasdoif]

It's that or assume Roy has been spending the entire fight aware of, but actively and deliberately ignoring, something that Thog would realize directly impacts what he's doing.

Hey...is that where Thog's been, going to school to pick up skill ranks in Listen and Spot?

[pendell]

I'm in the camp that says Roy's attention is and has been fully engaged by the Giants attempting to kill him. If he wasn't why, would "brace for impact" have caught him by surprise?

Still, I suspect that if at all possible Roy will want to dispatch his enemy by himself ; not just for pride, but for the simple reason that high-level adventurers aren't exactly thick on the ground right now. If Elan/Haley/V are saving Roy's tush, they're not doing something else which might be even more critical.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ChillerInstinct]

Options are pretty slim. Roy's got to be getting low on health, there's only so much room to fight on, and he's against a foe of comparable physical strength and greatly superior range.

I think it's time for a tactical retreat. There's a door behind him, though where in the ship it leads I haven't a clue. But the Frost Giant can't fit in there, and that'll buy time to get a few potions into him and maybe find something he can improvise with.

The downside, of course, is that it leaves the Frost Giant with at least a minute to keep attacking the ship. Which is... uh, not ideal at all. But at this point, he's dead otherwise, and unless Elan can jump down there's nothing the FG from destroying it over Roy's corpse anyway.

I think, either way, Roy isn't going to win this fight without outside intervention.

...Wait. Would B still have that short sword on her person? If one of the crew listened to her, they might be able to give Roy a weapon. It's not his usual fare, but it beats going bareknuckle.

[Ruck]

Or as an orderstick. Roy would be the only person proficient in that, thanks to Elan's long ago prediction about Orderer Stickier

(hmm, can't find the strip, it was Roy and Elan in a blue room in Azure City near the end of No cure for the Paladin Blues. )

I'm not sure what prediction you're referring to, but Elan mentions "Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier" in #938.

[2.5 cats]

The Mechane had harpoons mounted to the sides back in the desert, but I'd have to scroll through the current pics to see if they were dismounted when the ship went in for repairs.

You can see the Mechane firing a harpoon (or a ballista anyway) in 1055.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure what prediction you're referring to, but Elan mentions "Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier" in #938.

Thank you, the memory failed me. (And I just finished BRITF last weekend. Doh, old age has its drawbacks ...) I have updated that post to include your kind jog to my memory.

[Ruslan]

Roy only has one option: survive for long enough until someone/something else changes the flow of the battle. It could be Elan returning from mending the balloon and Charming the giantess, it could be Haley, V and Belkar rejoining the force, or the Mechane running into another mountain and knocking the giantess off the ship. Or something else. But Roy himself basically has no options.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy only has one option: survive for long enough until someone/something else changes the flow of the battle. It could be Elan returning from mending the balloon and Charming the giantess, it could be Haley, V and Belkar rejoining the force, or the Mechane running into another mountain and knocking the giantess off the ship. Or something else. But Roy himself basically has no options.

As I commented a bit further up, he's a high Int fighter and he is not above using a taunt to get the Giant to rush at him (sorta like Belkar did with the Goliath vampire) ... that may be his only hope, but I think it's something he'll try to keep the Giant focused on him and not on the crew ... who can't handle that giant.

[Mido]

I'd say Brian P.'s choice in the OP is the best given the information presented so far. Taunt and goad Lady Frost Giant into a mistake since Roy already has a piece of info that can make that highly effective despite being average in the Charisma department, the fact that she feels oppressed by their supposedly (I presume since it is stated but not shown) male dominated society and she takes umbrage upon it (her tirade and all). Roy being male would just hammer in the insults more and make her even more furious, thus making her more likely to commit to rage and make a more costly mistake, preferably one that gets her off the ship or if not so lucky, give Roy enough of an opening to find a weapon to give him a better chance at winning.

edit: Oh, just to be as thorough as possible if DnD implications are to be presumed, Total Defense doing perception checks would be my move in-game if it were to come to this kinda situation.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Taunts and insults are totally within Roy's wheelhouse.

[pendell]

Indeed. When you intend to put someone six feet under

:considers current situation:

Well... several hundred feet down in a giant crater?

...

ANYWAY, the point is, when you're going to kill someone, their feelings are not going to be high on your list of things to worry about.

...

Still, I'm not wedded to that solution. Perhaps Rich is more creative and will come up with another answer -- but I think he's still going to reference this in some way. Why introduce Chekhov's Fact if it's not going to be important somehow?

Could Roy convince her to help him against the unjust society that has been ignoring her skills? Doubt it; Diplomacy is cross-class for him.

....

But Haley could.

...



Unlikely, but it would be amusing if Rich could somehow pull it off.

So, let's see if I understand the various tactical options we have:

1) Taunt her into rage, then either goad her into charging off the ship or at least distract her.

2) Total Defense, waiting for someone to intervene and , again, keeping her distracted.

2A) Diplomacy+Total Defense. All the advantages of Total Defense, plus the possibility that Roy can somehow use his INT/WIS to neutralize the Giant, if not actually pull off a defection, as Haley did with Crystal. Not much of a chance, but non-zero either, and utterly impossible if the taunt is employed first.

3) Flee into the Mechane's interior in search of a potion or something.
I don't really like this option. It leaves the Giant free to kill the crew or tear the ship apart.

4) Abandon the ship entirely.
I'm concerned whether that's even an option; if Roy will survive the fall. He can't be at top HP right now.

5) Grapple the Giant, throw her off the ship.
Too many "ifs" for me. If we win the strength check and she doesn't have some feat or magic item of her own. If we can succeed in throwing her off. It seems a very risky course of action. Still, I'd choose this one over 3) or 4).


Other ideas welcome. "What would you do?" is a favorite game of mine.

At the moment, I think I would choose option 1 simply because it's Roy on deck, and anyone who's had to listen to his sarcastic gibes for more than a round or two isn't going to seriously listen to anything he says.

If it was Haley on deck, though, I'd definitely at least try option 2 first. The Giant is chaotic-something, right? Haley's chaotic, she understands the Giant's problems better , and she could talk the skin off a snake. Heck, I'm half surprised she had to kill the caster giants as opposed to convince them to chuck the whole thing and form a rock band!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[2.5 cats]

I'm not sure how bad a fall would be--if they're skirting the ridge we could be talking 20-30 feet into soft snow.

A grapple could work not to throw her overboard, but just to keep the giant from using her axe and buying time. Ditto disarming her and chucking her axe overboard--that just might convince her to jump off.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless Roy has the Monkey Grip feat, the giant's axe is out of bounds for him. A two-handed weapon sized for a large creature is otherwise impossible for a Medium creature to wield at all.

Incorrect. If it's a battleaxe that happens to be wielded with two hands instead of one, Roy can use it as is. If it's a greataxe, then he needs Monkey Grip. Or for Rich to decide that story trumps rules minutia.

Now, the real problem he has at the moment is that the axe is behind the frost giant, which makes the rest moot.

[SaintRidley]

Incorrect. If it's a battleaxe that happens to be wielded with two hands instead of one, Roy can use it as is. If it's a greataxe, then he needs Monkey Grip. Or for Rich to decide that story trumps rules minutia.

Now, the real problem he has at the moment is that the axe is behind the frost giant, which makes the rest moot.

A battleaxe can be wielded in two hands, but is not a two-handed weapon. Given that a Large battleaxe is identical to a Medium greataxe in all ways, and that these axes are far larger than a Medium greataxe, this is definitely a Large greataxe and requires Monkey Grip for Roy to use.

[SilverCacaobean]

It's kind of how I in the Worst Tactical Blunders thread argued that the Familicide shouldn't be considered a bad tactical option, since while it was doubtlessly Evil, from a tactics perspective it could be argued that it kept any more relatives to Black Dragons from threatening Vaarsuvius or they're family.

That is a horrible tactical decision! Two second of consideration (that V didn't spare) would prove it. Instead of having one family member after you, you have millions? Billions? Anyone related to those who died! Dragonkind has an oracle that can point the to the reason their relatives died, remember? That's how the black dragon found V... Hell, Tiamat knew immediately, V is lucky she blamed the fiends! Maybe she didn't either and the fiends convinced her to stay her hand until their plan is complete...

Frankly, Roy's best option here is to use his big brain and decent Charisma. If he can get her talking, maybe he can explain what Thrym's end goal is. Doesn't sound like she'd be down with that.

This. He already tried to convince Greg to switch sides, so why not try it with her? He could use what she said, too. ("You'll get annihilated for Thrym? For the elders who expect you to not upstage your male colleagues? For a god that hasn't given you a fair chance up to the point he needed you to destroy the world?" or something)

Alternatively, I'd pick up Andi and use her as an improvised weapon. Probably this.

[pendell]

That is a horrible tactical decision!

I would say it was a horrible moral decision and not a tactical decision at all. "Tactics" refers to those skills and tricks used to win the immediate battle, and the battle was already over when familicide was employed. Familicide was a 'pursuit' action, in which V attempted to exploit zir victory by ensuring there would be no threat from that quarter ever again.

From a purely short-sighted perspective, this Evil act may have been successful; unless they are resurrected , none of Mama's relatives are coming after V or zir family.

The reason I'm saying "short-sighted" is that karma seems to be a real thing in OOTS, and the karma train is definitely going to come back and hit V for zir actions. That could very well have costs for both V personally and zir family. So not only do I believe that familicide was a terrible moral crime, it did not even serve its intended purpose; to keep V and zir family safe.

...

Also, I'll wager 100 zorkmids that our Giantess is going to be screaming SMASH THE PATRIARCHY! As she attempts to *smash* Roy inna face with her club. If Rich doesn't go for that joke, it'll be such a waste of setup

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Indeed, Vaarsuvius themself highlighted the ridiculousness of the assumption that only family members might come to avenge one of their victims: their excuse was that this was supposedly to protect adopted children and a spouse.

[SilverCacaobean]

not a tactical decision at all.

I knew someone would say that...
Anyway. I meant, that if you goal is to protect yourself and your family, this (angering a god and commiting genocide) is a very stupid thing to do.