Permanent Image "within the limits of the range"

[Segev]

Permanent image references silent image for most of its effects, but one of the differences is that where silent image states that it allows you to move the illusion around within the limits of the area of effect, permanent image says you can move it around within the limits of the range.

I can interpret this in one of several ways:

• It's a typo. It should have been limits of the AoE.
  
  • An issue with this interpretation is that it would've been best to just leave it out, since it would inherit this from silent image anyway.
• It overwrites the silent image clause...
  • ...so you have to be in range to move it around at all, but it moves around within range from you.
  • ...but the range is from where you were when you originally cast it. You can move it around within that range from that original casting location. (It still is confined to the AoE for its maximum size.)
• It adds to the AoE option.
  
  • So you can move it around within the AoE by concentrating without having to be in range, or you can take it with you by having it move around within range of you.
  • So you can move it around within its AoE regardless of relative range by concentrating, or have it appear within range of you at any time and move its AoE around within that range.

So...which is it? How does this work? Can you really take a permanent image with you? Can you "teleport" it to you at any time? Can you concentrate on it and move it within its AoE regardless of range (per inheritance from silent image)?

And then imagine how delicious permanent image can be when combined with the observant illusion discovery! Even if it can't be pulled to you/taken with you, leave permanent images scattered around and you can spy through them at any time!

[weckar]

[*]...but the range is from where you were when you originally cast it. You can move it around within that range from that original casting location. (It still is confined to the AoE for its maximum size.[/list]

This always made most sense to me personally. It stays size-limited but gains mobility. One thing I wonder though: can the image only move or also be shifted? I other words, is it a billboard or an animation?

[Segev]

One thing I wonder though: can the image only move or also be shifted? I other words, is it a billboard or an animation?

I've rarely seen anybody claim it's a statue/billboard, as that makes them nearly useless. Particularly permanent image, which is a 6th level spell AND states that it's static if you're not concentrating (implying that the movement is more than just translation through space when you do concentrate).

What remains an open question, to me, is whether the movement of the image allows for gross alterations to it, or just for animation of it. I've seen people have silent images change entirely from one thing to another. But I'm not sure that's supported by the RAW.

[Telonius]

Technically it's supposed to be an image of a person, creature, or force. So unless the creature being emulated is a Phasm, by what's written, it's probably supposed to be stuck.

Personally I'd rule that you can move the Permanent Image anywhere within the range of the spell (as opposed to anywhere within the size of the effect, per Silent Image); the "range of the spell" being anywhere within 400 ft + 40/level from where the spell was first cast.

If you could move it anywhere with you, that would open up all sorts of silliness. (I'm imagining some practical joker making a permanent image of a big exclamation point and putting it right over where the town guards are supposed to stand).

[icefractal]

[*]...but the range is from where you were when you originally cast it. You can move it around within that range from that original casting location. (It still is confined to the AoE for its maximum size.)

That's what I'd go with, but I admit that's more based on seeming like a reasonable way for the spell to function rather than having strong RAW support toward that interpretation.

Also, the arcane discovery is awesome, I hadn't seen that one before. It doesn't even seem to be a Scrying effect, so pretty hard to block or detect (the illusion itself could be detected, but not whether it was "live"). And since it works with Shadow effects too, it looks like you can see through any of your Simulacra, or even through a Mage Armor that you cast on someone via Shadow Conjuration.

Fun idea - offer to provide lighting for city streets, mansions, castles, etc at a low price.
Use Shadow Evocation -> Continual Flame. If anyone asks why, it's because you don't have to spend ruby dust that way, of course. Now you can see and hear out of every single lamp!

[Segev]

That's what I'd go with, but I admit that's more based on seeming like a reasonable way for the spell to function rather than having strong RAW support toward that interpretation.

Also, the arcane discovery is awesome, I hadn't seen that one before. It doesn't even seem to be a Scrying effect, so pretty hard to block or detect (the illusion itself could be detected, but not whether it was "live"). And since it works with Shadow effects too, it looks like you can see through any of your Simulacra, or even through a Mage Armor that you cast on someone via Shadow Conjuration.

Fun idea - offer to provide lighting for city streets, mansions, castles, etc at a low price.
Use Shadow Evocation -> Continual Flame. If anyone asks why, it's because you don't have to spend ruby dust that way, of course. Now you can see and hear out of every single lamp!

Good catch on shadow [whatever] being a valid thing to see through; I hadn't thought of those. Using shadow evocation for continual flame is likewise quite clever; I'm surprised I hadn't thought of something like it, myself. Admittedly, it takes a higher-level spell slot, but it's still a gold savings!

[Darth Ultron]

So...which is it?

It is exactly like Silent Image except it is bigger.

Silent Image is 4 10 foot cubes + 1 10 foot cube/level.
Permanent Image is a 20 foot cube + 1 10 foot cube/level.

Both spells have the same range. And you can move the figment around in that range.

[Segev]

It is exactly like Silent Image except it is bigger.

Silent Image is 4 10 foot cubes + 1 10 foot cube/level.
Permanent Image is a 20 foot cube + 1 10 foot cube/level.

Both spells have the same range. And you can move the figment around in that range.

Actually, no.

You can't move silent image around within range. Only within the AoE. These are two different quantities. Whether permanent image is overwriting the "within the area" with "within range," or somehow adding it as an additional thing you can do, is the question. And whether "the range" is defined from the point where you cast it, or from you. It's worth noting that unseen servant is an example of a spell where the range is continually measured from you. As is floating disk.

[Geddy2112]

The range of silent image is long, 400+40ft/level. However, silent image can only be moved within the area of effect, which is four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level. So a silent image is stuck within the four 10-ft. cubes +one 10-ft cube/level, but the spell can be cast anywhere that is 400+40ft/level away from the caster.

A permanent image can move within the limits of the range of silent image(400+40 ft/level) when concentrated on. This means a permanent image can be moved anywhere that is 400+40ft/level from the point of casting, which is a minimum of 880 ft for a wizard/sorcerer and a minimum 1040 ft for a bard.

[Segev]

The range of silent image is long, 400+40ft/level. However, silent image can only be moved within the area of effect, which is four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level. So a silent image is stuck within the four 10-ft. cubes +one 10-ft cube/level, but the spell can be cast anywhere that is 400+40ft/level away from the caster.

A permanent image can move within the limits of the range of silent image(400+40 ft/level) when concentrated on. This means a permanent image can be moved anywhere that is 400+40ft/level from the point of casting, which is a minimum of 880 ft for a wizard/sorcerer and a minimum 1040 ft for a bard.

So your take is that permanent image is overwriting the "within the area of the spell" clause of silent image, rather than adding anything to it.

[Duke of Urrel]

I never noticed that effect of the the Permanent Image spell, according to the spell's descriptive text, can be moved within the limits of the spell's range. Thanks for pointing this out, Segev!

I have only one comment, which is to point out that the descriptive text of the Major Image spell is worded very much like the Permanent Image spell.

While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.

So I definitely take the view that the text of the Permanent Image spell is not an error; the rules really do allow you to move the spell's effect anywhere within the spell's range by concentrating upon it.

I am indecisive about whether the Permanent Image spell's range is a sphere that is centered on you wherever you go or whether it is a sphere that is permanently centered at the spell's point of origin when you cast it. This question has never come up with the Major Image spell, but since the Permanent Image spell is permanent, we need to come up with an answer, don't we?

Maybe the best judgement is that you, the spellcaster, can choose whether the range of the Permanent Image spell is always centered on you and follows you around, or whether the spell's range is permanently anchored to the spell's point of origin when you cast it. I would only insist that you can't change your mind after you cast the spell.

[Segev]

That seems fair, to even a bit over-generous. Having thought about it more, I am more and more of the opinion that the range is from the caster, if only because every other spell I can think of with a duration and a range that cares what the range is after the moment of casting seems to insist the effect stay in range of the caster, not of the point of casting.

That said, permanent image can't be controlled via concentration outside of that range, so the caster has to come in range of it to re-assert control. Makes permanent images of creatures useful only as resources to re-collect and re-use, since leaving them behind makes them static. Whether you can alter them from being a given creature to another, or even to an object or phenomenon, is still a valid question. 5e, which has similar wording but is definitely a different edition so has little bearing on this as actual rules, seems to think you normally can't; it takes a 6th level Illusionist to be able to alter the image that dramatically. But I've seen people interpret base silent image as being alterable to that degree.

And, to be pedantic, what's the difference (to an observer) between an illusion of a phasm pretending to be an ogre and an illusion of an ogre? Of a mimic pretending to be a wall and a mimic? It's within reason to assume that the nature of the illusion is wholly within the spellcaster's control as long as he is able to control it at all. But some might say that's too powerful.

Heck, get yourself a secret chest or a Portable Hole and store a permanent image in there, and you don't have to concentrate on it to carry it with you. With even good faith discussion of what counts as "stationary," you could argue to affix a silent image (and thus a permanent image) to a wagon, or a ship, or maybe even the inside of a backpack or a coin purse, because you start running into all sorts of issues if you try to define "stationary" wrt the planet as more special than any other form of "stationary."

Now I'm imagining a rogue or somebody buying a scroll of permanent image and using / UMDing it and having a pet illusion that they pull out for all sorts of cunning purposes. That'd be 1,650 gp for the scroll. DC 31 UMD check.

[Darth Ultron]

Actually, no.

I guess I'd ask how you interpret the spell?

So a first level mage casts silent image and makes an image of an orc. So your saying that the caster can pick a spot, within 440 feet, and put the orc image there. And then, for the rest of the spell the orc image can be moved round the four 10 foot cubes that the caster picks from that spot?

And then a 11th level mage can cast permanent image and make the image of an orc. So your saying this orc image can be moved around anywhere within 840 feet of the spellcaster?

Or the 1st level mage can make the image of a wall of fire, filling four 10 foot cubes and can't move it from the spot it's cast. But the 11th level mage can make an image of 130 10 foot cubes of a wall of fire...but can move that wall of fire around within 840 feet of the spellcaster?

So your interpenetration has Silent Image as an unmovable in place effect within a couple ten foot squares. So, for example a 1st level mage could make an illusion of a hat at one point, but once they move more then four 10 foot cubes from that spot the hat won't come with the mage? But on the other hand, the 11th level mage can wear the illusion of the hat and walk along anywhere with no problem?

Or like a 1st level mage can't have the orc illusion walk down a full length of a 50 foot long tunnel, as it will stop at the 40 mark? (Having to illusion of the orc start at ''o'' right next to the mage and walk down the hallway).

And Major Image gets the upgrade to ''the illusion can be moved anywhere with in range of the caster AND moves with the caster''?

[Segev]

I guess I'd ask how you interpret the spell?

Well, that's kind-of what this thread is about. Your interpretations seem like valid readings of the rules, but I'll address them each individually, too:

So a first level mage casts silent image and makes an image of an orc. So your saying that the caster can pick a spot, within 440 feet, and put the orc image there. And then, for the rest of the spell the orc image can be moved round the four 10 foot cubes that the caster picks from that spot?

No interpretation necessary here; this is what the spell says it does.

And then a 11th level mage can cast permanent image and make the image of an orc. So your saying this orc image can be moved around anywhere within 840 feet of the spellcaster?

That is one possible interpretation. Another would be that it can only move around within 840 feet of where the caster was when he cast the spell.

Or the 1st level mage can make the image of a wall of fire, filling four 10 foot cubes and can't move it from the spot it's cast.

Well, presumably he could cause it to dwindle in size then flare back up again, but he couldn't move out out of that set of 10 foot cubes, per the spell's stated capacities.

But the 11th level mage can make an image of 130 10 foot cubes of a wall of fire...but can move that wall of fire around within 840 feet of the spellcaster?

That sounds right, assuming "range from spellcaster" is the rule and not "range from point of casting."

So your interpenetration has Silent Image as an unmovable in place effect within a couple ten foot squares. So, for example a 1st level mage could make an illusion of a hat at one point, but once they move more then four 10 foot cubes from that spot the hat won't come with the mage? But on the other hand, the 11th level mage can wear the illusion of the hat and walk along anywhere with no problem?

That is what the rules say, although "in place effect" raises the questions about "in place wrt what?" Define it wrt the mage's head, and it moves around with the head. Whether you can do that or not is...a matter of DM judgment, really. But it's a valid question because of the same question being raised when silent image is cast:

• on a boat
• inside a wagon
• on a flying island or castle
• inside a treasure chest
• or other similar moving locales

Or like a 1st level mage can't have the orc illusion walk down a full length of a 50 foot long tunnel, as it will stop at the 40 mark? (Having to illusion of the orc start at ''o'' right next to the mage and walk down the hallway).

That does seem to be what silent image specifies.

And Major Image gets the upgrade to ''the illusion can be moved anywhere with in range of the caster AND moves with the caster''?

It certainly gets upgraded to "anywhere within range." Whether that's "of the caster" or "of the point in space where the caster was when he cast the spell" remains an open question. If it's "of the caster," then "moves with the caster" is inherently part of that. Nothing indicates it moves with the caster if it has to stay in range of the point from where it was first cast.

edit: Oh, and you missed another question: Can a caster create an illusion of an orc, then decide that an illusion of an ogre is more useful and have the orc turn into one? What about deciding an illusion of a wall is now more useful as an illusion of a coin in his belt pouch? (That latter is mostly useful if you can set it to move wrt the belt pouch, so you don't have to concentrate on moving it. At least for a permanent image.)

[Darth Ultron]

Well, that's kind-of what this thread is about. Your interpretations seem like valid readings of the rules

Well, Id say that the interpretation that a silent image must stay within a couple ten foot squares makes the spell too weak. A couple of stationary ten foot squares make the spell a lot less useful. And things like making an orc illusion walk along a path would be very odd, like the orc could walk back and forth along a 100 ' line, but could not walk 20 ' forward...as no matter what you will run out of 10 foot squares eventually.

And that interpretation prevents a lot of simple things that a first level illusion should be able to do like :

Making an illusion of something like an intruder for a guard to chase.
Making an illusion of an item to carry around.
Making an illusion to give to someone.
Making an illusion of a flare or other attention getting signal.
Making an illusion of a floating cloud.

edit: Oh, and you missed another question: Can a caster create an illusion of an orc, then decide that an illusion of an ogre is more useful and have the orc turn into one? What about deciding an illusion of a wall is now more useful as an illusion of a coin in his belt pouch? (That latter is mostly useful if you can set it to move wrt the belt pouch, so you don't have to concentrate on moving it. At least for a permanent image.)

Well, if your a by-the-book kind of person the spell does say ''an object, creature or force''. And only mentions moving the image, but never says anything about changing it. So that would be one, unchanging object, creature or force.

Though to just say ''one'' does not exactly work. After all an orc is one creature, and it's boots, armor, and axe would be three objects. And it just gets more silly from there as a lot of things need more then ''one'' thing. A simple campfire is at least three pieces of wood, plus the fire..and it just gets silly to say ''a campfire'' can be ''up to five objects of wood'', but you can't make a goblin with a dagger.

But multiple ''things'' can get a bit much like can the magic create 25 orcs? I often rule it to be ''one thing'' only, but many ''things'' can make up ''one''. So you can make a knight on a horse, but they can't separate.

Changing the image after you cast it though, is just pure house rule. The spell(s) descriptions never say you can do that. And if you could, you'd think they would have added the line of ''you can change the image with a move action'' or such.

Sadly, the 3.5 and Pathfinder image spells are just a cut and paste from earlier editions and they were unclear and even broken back then.

[Segev]

Well, Id say that the interpretation that a silent image must stay within a couple ten foot squares makes the spell too weak.

That is a valid opinion, but it is what the rules say. Silent image is quite clear on that point. You can, of course, house rule it. I would even recommend it.

Well, if your a by-the-book kind of person the spell does say ''an object, creature or force''. And only mentions moving the image, but never says anything about changing it. So that would be one, unchanging object, creature or force.

That's one way to read it. It could also just be one at a time.

Changing the image after you cast it though, is just pure house rule. The spell(s) descriptions never say you can do that. And if you could, you'd think they would have added the line of ''you can change the image with a move action'' or such.

Perhaps, but it doesn't state that it's fixed, either. And technically, all you have to do is say "it's a psion under a True Metamorphosis power, so he can morph at will" to get objects and creatures galore. Silly, but...

[Darth Ultron]

Perhaps, but it doesn't state that it's fixed, either. And technically, all you have to do is say "it's a psion under a True Metamorphosis power, so he can morph at will" to get objects and creatures galore. Silly, but...

Brings up the other point of ''if you make an image of a red dragon...can it breathe fire?'' Does ''the fire'' count as a separate force or is it ''part'' of the dragon?

And if you'd say the dragon can breathe fire as it ''is a dragon'', I'd point out it is just an image of a dragon. So there would be no reason an image of a housecat or a tree could not ''breathe fire''. And can the image of the red dragon breathe frost? It's possible for a real red dragon to do that (with a meta breath feat, for example)...but does that matter?

Like if you ''make an image of a mimic'' then the image of the mimic can change into all sorts of forms.....but if you make the image of a troll, well you are stuck with the troll.