Iron Fist

[GloatingSwine]

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Hmm. I didn't see that as Danny just being difficult for the sake of it. If they had been discussing the annual window cleaning budget I think he probably would have done as he was told, it wasn't some 'rebelling against authority' thing, it was just bad luck and writer fiat that the first thing on the agenda was the pricing strategy of a lifesaving drug that he felt wasn't being handled ethically.

No, I don't think you were supposed to, I think you were supposed to see him being naive and charming and good hearted, but it's what happened in the series. It's the logical consequence of Danny's behaviour thus far, stalking Joy to the point of breaking into her house, kidnapping and threatening Ward, and generally belonging in that mental care home...

[JeenLeen]

To add something to the argument about Danny's mentality and that he was raised to have by the monks:

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If I heard it right, when Davos was helping Danny break out of the Hand academy, the exchange went something like this.

Davos: What is this place?
Danny: It's the Hand.
Davos: Ah. Let's kill as many as we can as we leave.

Now, Davos' response makes sense. They are, to his knowledge, monstrous enemies who will serve evil; he hasn't seen them as innocent students being duped/taken into a cult. But it definitely is telling how Danny wants to spare the students and even seemed reluctant to kill truly evil Hand.

As an aside: I get Danny sparing the students who are just ignorantly being trained in what seems a good place, but I found his non-lethal take-downs of Gao's forces to be a bit unbelievable. He knows that, if they survive, they will remain as servants of the Hand and his enemies (assuming Gao doesn't kill them for failure, but then what good does sparing them do?)
But I in general have wished that he, Jessica, and Luke were all more willing to kill.

[GloatingSwine]

But I in general have wished that he, Jessica, and Luke were all more willing to kill.

Jessica and Luke are operating more or less openly under their own name (and Luke is already framed for murder and assault of police officers), so they're much more sensibly restricted to minimum necessary force (and we talked about Jessica's need to prove to herself that she was, in fact, controlled and not a willing accomplice which required her to have Killgrave alive in the other Netflix Marvel thread)

[JeenLeen]

Jessica and Luke are operating more or less openly under their own name (and Luke is already framed for murder and assault of police officers), so they're much more sensibly restricted to minimum necessary force (and we talked about Jessica's need to prove to herself that she was, in fact, controlled and not a willing accomplice which required her to have Killgrave alive in the other Netflix Marvel thread)

That does make sense. And really my main annoyance at Jessica was her not punching Kilgrave a few episodes before the finale. I agree with her not killing thugs, most of which were just innocents manipulated by Kilgrave.

I find Luke a bit more annoying, since he probably could get away with some of the criminals he fought.

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Although getting framed for Cottonmouth's death was a big disadvantage for him, I think a lot could have been resolved sooner and easier if he punched Diamondback sooner or, after it became clear Mariah was a threat, snuck to her place at night and killed her. Now, I do admit killing her in cold blood would be... rather unappealing for a hero in a TV show. But I think he could do it secretly enough that, even if some blamed him, nothing would stick.

With Danny... it just seems odd that Living Weapon trained to kill the Hand seems reluctant to kill openly evil Hand who are actively trying to kill him and, at times, those dear to him.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, first off. If you are on the lamb trying to hide from the cops. The last thing you want to be doing is running around killing people. Second, you just don't understand the characteristics of Luke Cage. For lack of a better term. He is a paladin. Well, pretty much a paladin. Just without all the shiny.

The reason Danny doesn't kill willy nilly, is because he is still trying to keep his life as Danny Rand. You can't keep that and go around killing people willy nilly. He currently isn't really the Iron Fist. He is torn right now between being Danny, and then Being the Iron Fist. Obviously he is leaning more on the Danny Rand side. Ergo, he would want to keep being him as un-incarcerated as possible.

[Starbuck_II]

That does make sense. And really my main annoyance at Jessica was her not punching Kilgrave a few episodes before the finale. I agree with her not killing thugs, most of which were just innocents manipulated by Kilgrave.

I find Luke a bit more annoying, since he probably could get away with some of the criminals he fought.

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Although getting framed for Cottonmouth's death was a big disadvantage for him, I think a lot could have been resolved sooner and easier if he punched Diamondback sooner or, after it became clear Mariah was a threat, snuck to her place at night and killed her. Now, I do admit killing her in cold blood would be... rather unappealing for a hero in a TV show. But I think he could do it secretly enough that, even if some blamed him, nothing would stick.

With Danny... it just seems odd that Living Weapon trained to kill the Hand seems reluctant to kill openly evil Hand who are actively trying to kill him and, at times, those dear to him.

He only became the Living Weapon by luck when you think about it.
The dragon is less an enemy to defeat, but a obstacle you get around.

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It was luck he grabbed the symbol on his chest killing him.

He only trained to get accolades he never got from his father (in the comics, his father is a jerk, hits Danny when he acts disobedient).
He did better and better so he decided to get best award: The Iron Fist!
And yet, after getting the reward, he shirks his responsibility defending the gate?!

[Zalabim]

Very briefly: Big Al died. It was plainly (probably) murder. There was even a zoom in on a tattoo, like it was meaningful. It was apparently unrelated to anything else in the series though. No one seems to care out of universe either.

[tantric]

Gripe: IronFist guy is smokin' hot and not once in the entire season did he get shirtless. Facepalm - comic book geeks!

[Red Fel]

Very briefly: Big Al died. It was plainly (probably) murder. There was even a zoom in on a tattoo, like it was meaningful. It was apparently unrelated to anything else in the series though. No one seems to care out of universe either.

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Actually, they show the needle in his arm, suggesting that it was an OD. And the tattoo is later revealed to be meaningful - the bird, which they show flying over the city on multiple occasions, was the "sign" Danny was looking for while in the monastery. He reveals late in the season that after becoming the Fist, he looked for a sign as to what to do with his life; he saw the bird flying overhead, a symbol of freedom, and realized that the way was open.

So, basically, the bird tattoo tells Danny to embrace his freedom, except we don't find that out until later and it's never actually revisited, because bad writing.

Gripe: IronFist guy is smokin' hot and not once in the entire season did he get shirtless. Facepalm - comic book geeks!

You're right. Not once. Multiple times.

Also, I wouldn't say hot. Lanky, yes, but dude was not ripped. A bit toned, but not a lot.

[Clertar]

He trained in traditional CMA, not bulking at the neighbourhood gym, and was on a low-protein diet.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, he should look like Bruce Lee.

Who was basically solid as **** with muscle, but it was muscle gained through martial arts training.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, he should look like Bruce Lee.

Who was basically solid as **** with muscle, but it was muscle gained through martial arts training.

This. Lee wasn't swole, but he was toned. The man had definition over every inch. You could see the movement of each muscle, every sinew.

That's not to say Finn Jones is scrawny or flabby, but he's nowhere near as toned as someone who has trained for fifteen years in an isolated monastery should be.

[Sapphire Guard]

Getting that fit is a full time job, which makes your lead very difficult to cast.

There was even a zoom in on a tattoo, like it was meaningful. It was apparently unrelated to anything else in the series though. No one seems to care out of universe either.

Hmm. I thought the tattoo was meant to signify that maybe he was actually telling the truth, and Danny wasn't the only mysterious homeless guy with mystical powers in New York.

No, I don't think you were supposed to, I think you were supposed to see him being naive and charming and good hearted, but it's what happened in the series. It's the logical consequence of Danny's behaviour thus far, stalking Joy to the point of breaking into her house, kidnapping and threatening Ward, and generally belonging in that mental care home...]

Well, I understood all that as reasonable mistakes. He didn't threaten Ward until he had a gun pulled on him. He settles down a lot after he gets used to things.It was all round more plausible that him immediate slotting back into his life perfectly for me. Good ideas, no, but not that unreasonable for someone with Danny's recent experiences, level of desperation, and abilities.

[Kyberwulf]

Holy crap.

People are focusing WAY to much on how the dude looks as a martial artist. I don't ever want to see anyone making those claims talk about the unfairness of female actors having to look a certain way.

I find it funny is all.

[Dr.Samurai]

Holy crap.

People are focusing WAY to much on how the dude looks as a martial artist. I don't ever want to see anyone making those claims talk about the unfairness of female actors having to look a certain way.

I find it funny is all.

But it's true. They are showing us a story and it doesn't quite add up to many of us. Quite frankly, Danny Rand does not look or act or fight like someone that has spent the last fifteen years training non-stop to become a supernatural warrior monk. It's cheap. He's just a "normal" person (but rather annoyingly oblivious) that we are *told* is a badass warrior monk. But literally none of his qualities or attributes support that.

That's what makes it poor storytelling. They're having it both ways. He gets to be this rich affable normal guy, but with the Iron Fist. It's like a technicality that he has to have trained for fifteen years to acquire the Iron Fist. They have to mention it, but not really follow through on it.

EDIT: It would be the same with Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. If either character was playing a warrior monk martial arts master that has been training all their life, neither one would really have a body that supports that. Daredevil comes the closest I think.

[Kyberwulf]

Why is there so much hate for rich people all of a sudden?

that is another comment being thrown at him. "He is rich" "he is a spoiled rich kid"

I think he can afford*see what I did there* some measure of leeway. His parents died in front of him. Also his family seemed to be genuinely decent and caring people. He lost them and the surrogate family he thought he had.

Still, It's kind of silly, to be so up in arms about the the aesthetics of the show. Because, that's all it is. Window dressing. It's the same way as getting angry and hating a show because they changed the gender of the characters for no reason, changing the race of a show for no reason.

Does he look like he can fight, or does he look like he has the physical strength? No. Does Jessica Jones look like she can throw people around? no. Did buffy look like she could bench press a car? Milla and Beckinsale?

Why is it a man has to look and act a certain way to be credible superhero? A woman is forgiven this fault all the time.

[Clertar]

Yeah, he should look like Bruce Lee.

Who was basically solid as **** with muscle, but it was muscle gained through martial arts training.

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[Clertar]

This. Lee wasn't swole, but he was toned. The man had definition over every inch. You could see the movement of each muscle, every sinew.

That's not to say Finn Jones is scrawny or flabby, but he's nowhere near as toned as someone who has trained for fifteen years in an isolated monastery should be.

I guess you should tell that to shaolin monks that have grown up practicing martial arts in monasteries

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[Dr.Samurai]

Why is there so much hate for rich people all of a sudden?

that is another comment being thrown at him. "He is rich" "he is a spoiled rich kid"

I think he can afford*see what I did there* some measure of leeway. His parents died in front of him. Also his family seemed to be genuinely decent and caring people. He lost them and the surrogate family he thought he had.

What hate for rich people? It's incongruous. Let me see if I can articulate my point better.

Danny Rand is a character that is getting the perks of two very different lives, without having to be the kind of person that would lead either of those lives.

When we first see him, he isn't even aware of his own hobo look. He is offered shoes and he politely declines it. He gets offended when Joy offers him money for his stake in the company. We're led to believe that Danny is above material things, because he's been a monk most of his life.

But we soon see that he isn't above bribing people with insane offers like paying their rent for months. Or, let's accelerate that 1000% and just *buy the ****ing building* that his love interest rents out of because it's convenient for him. Let's take my private jet to China.

Hey, that's not how we do business. We sell the medicine at cost!!! But also... I need all of this money to do stuff and bribe people so... let's make that happen too.

He starts off as one might expect of a monk, but then quickly falls into the "money aint no thang!" mentality and just uses it willy-nilly. So he gets to play off the ascetic barefoot monk, while also being a billionaire. Nice how that works.

Still, It's kind of silly, to be so up in arms about the the aesthetics of the show. Because, that's all it is. Window dressing. It's the same way as getting angry and hating a show because they changed the gender of the characters for no reason, changing the race of a show for no reason.

If it was the one thing, fine. But... you're really just dismissing every single complaint that people have, so it's not really just "window dressing". We could have been able to say "he doesn't act like a monk, or fight like a monk, but at least he has a convincing martial arts master's body". But he doesn't even have that. Again, he just looks and acts like a moron that does tai chi on the weekends. Not like what the show keeps telling us he actually is.

Does he look like he can fight, or does he look like he has the physical strength? No. Does Jessica Jones look like she can throw people around? no. Did buffy look like she could bench press a car? Milla and Beckinsale?

Why is it a man has to look and act a certain way to be credible superhero? A woman is forgiven this fault all the time.

I don't know what you're talking about. You really need to get off this anti-SJW kick, as much as I agree with that sentiment. People were *up in arms* when Gal Gadot was cast as Wonder Woman precisely because everyone felt she was too slender to play the role. CBG19 complains about skinny women warriors as well. It's... a thing people do. I don't know why you think it's specific to men.

[afroakuma]

It seems there's some sort of effort to divert from criticism of the show by:

• Criticizing other shows
• Blaming the show's failings on political correctness
• Contending that those who criticize the show are perpetrating double standards.

So, setting all of that nonsense aside: this show is terrible. It's an exercise in expediency over purpose, convenience over care, and checking boxes over delivering something of any narrative worth. If other shows didn't exist, this show would still be a terrible show, except the only point of the show existing would also be gone.

If you can't talk about the show on its own merits, or lack thereof, why be part of a discussion of that show?

[Knaight]

Still, It's kind of silly, to be so up in arms about the the aesthetics of the show. Because, that's all it is. Window dressing. It's the same way as getting angry and hating a show because they changed the gender of the characters for no reason, changing the race of a show for no reason.

Are you really going to claim that what a show looks like is unimportant? It's a visual medium, a huge amount of the point of choosing a visual medium is that it allows the aesthetics to be displayed prominently with minimal time put to it (as opposed to a book, radio show, etc.), so that said aesthetics can carry the weight.

Does he look like he can fight, or does he look like he has the physical strength? No. Does Jessica Jones look like she can throw people around? no. Did buffy look like she could bench press a car? Milla and Beckinsale?

Why is it a man has to look and act a certain way to be credible superhero? A woman is forgiven this fault all the time.

Jessica Jones explicitly has super powers, her ability to throw people around isn't because she trained a bunch and just has that much muscle (much the same way that Luke Cage doesn't need to look like he can pull of the various punching through walls and hurling people across rooms stunts that he has). The actress who played Buffy actually had martial arts training, and it showed, but the super strength was again a supernatural ability. Similarly, Iron Man and The Hulk don't look like they have spectacular strength in their normal incarnations, but it doesn't actually matter because the costumes and CGI for their superpowered incarnations do look capable. Meanwhile someone fairly muscular was cast as Batman, because Batman's strength is supposed to actually come from muscles.

[Kyberwulf]

I know it's not specific to men. I am just pointing out, that the same people who are complaining about the lack of features on one actor, will turn around and defend other actors for the same thing.

Look at a comment just made. Jessica Jones and Luke don't need to look the part. Because they are special in some way. Yet in the comic's they are shown to be waay more physically fit. Not only that, it is pervasively all through comics, that the characters are are shown to be way more fit then normal humans. Yet for some reason, this guy has to look like bruce lee, and act like ... I don't know insert some uber narvana sounding monk.

I can forgive a character for not being the most well rounded, nonplushed guy. When his whole world, both worlds have just been thrown into chaos.

How can you agree with my sentiment, yet tell me I am completely wrong?

I am not trying to divert critism of the show.

I am trying to defend something that is being judged not by it's merits. But by the fact that it is popular to hate on the show.

I bring up other shows, that are tied inexorably together. Other shows are getting passes for the same crappy writing and characteristics, while this one is being bashed.

I have said before, this show isn't good. It just isn't nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

If the same level of criticism were levied against the other shows, and the same type of bashing. Everyone would be up in arms trying to defend them.

[Dr.Samurai]

I know it's not specific to men. I am just pointing out, that the same people who are complaining about the lack of features on one actor, will turn around and defend other actors for the same thing.

Look at a comment just made. Jessica Jones and Luke don't need to look the part. Because they are special in some way. Yet in the comic's they are shown to be waay more physically fit. Not only that, it is pervasively all through comics, that the characters are are shown to be way more fit then normal humans. Yet for some reason, this guy has to look like bruce lee, and act like ... I don't know insert some uber narvana sounding monk.

The difference is that before acquiring the Iron Fist, Danny became a martial arts master. He had to beat everyone else to have a shot at the dragon and receive the Iron Fist. So... he should look like a martial artist. Like someone playing Batman shouldn't be scrawny, because part of his ability to defeat people comes from his physicality.

Jessica has a mutant power that isn't tied to her muscles (or rather, not tied to her muscles being large). I just googled images of the comic version. She does not look muscled to me. Like Rogue from X-Men. Super strength not tied to actual muscles. She doesn't need to look buff.

I can forgive a character for not being the most well rounded, nonplushed guy. When his whole world, both worlds have just been thrown into chaos.

His world was thrown into chaos FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. He should be over it to some degree. Especially as some zen type monk. Anything that happens after he leaves K'un-Lun is of his own making. He has to deal with the consequences of his actions just like every other adult on the planet.

How can you agree with my sentiment, yet tell me I am completely wrong?

Because I am also "anti-SJW" (for sake of simple categorization), but I don't see it everywhere and reduce everyone's opinions to PC culture. It's frustrating that people can type a wall of text explaining why they don't like the show and the only thing you can see is that Danny Rand is a white man. It's not even mentioned anywhere, and you are the only one bringing it up.

[Legato Endless]

Part of this issue is expectations renders the equivalency argument invalid for many people. This isn't the first show in the series to draw criticism for underwhelming choreography. Luke Cage did so as well, as the fight scenes were considered mostly underwhelming in staging and shooting. That show did get more of a pass on this however, for several reasons.

More importantly than Cage having powers, was the conflict of the show was more sociological. Every Netflix entry, and most early superhero stories involve a struggle with identity. Luke is by design the most self assured Defender on a personal level, but also the least presumptive in terms of his relationship to his greater surroundings. In the beginning of the series to a fault. Cage's conflict for better and occasionally for worse is more resolved around argument and speeches with fights forming more after effects for decisions, with some exceptions like the underwhelming climax.

This is also partially why Luke and Clair's epic road trip down memory lane is monotonously unnecessary as it removes Luke from his relationship with his neighborhood, the central dynamo of the show, to ask tediously maudlin questions about a backstory we never needed. When people talk about things they dislike about Luke's entry, they tend to the forgive the lackluster fight scenes because it's more obligatory for his show.

But Iron Fist is a show that centers around martial arts. It should by all rights have been the superior successor to Daredevil on this count. Danny's fighting is much more central to his character than Luke or Jessica. It's even more central to him than Matt by a good margin. It's a primary facet of the narrative. People are going to be more disappointed here because it matters more here. The same way subpar dialogue hurts a bottle episode significantly more than other kinds of television.

[Zalabim]

Danny Rand is not a zen type monk. He has never pretended to be a zen type monk. He was never trained to be zen type monk. Davos, who lived and trained in K'un-Lun his whole life is not a zen type monk. K'un-Lun's warrior monks are not zen type monks. They have been taught to abandon attachments and repress their feelings and you can see what effect that has had on Danny and Davos in the show. Your complaint about Danny's characterization rings hollow because you decided his character before ever watching the show.

Danny came back to New York to look for a connection to family and the life he had. He never addressed and accepted the loss of his family in these past 15 years. That's not what they do in K'un-Lun. They don't teach peace, harmony, and acceptance. They teach discipline, detachment, and repression. Joy and Ward offered him money to go away. Of course he turns that down. Through the whole series he acts like someone who doesn't value money. He doesn't care about getting it. He doesn't care when he spends it. He cares about finding some connection, some replacement for the family he lost.

Danny Rand is still torn up about the death of his parents. That's plain as day, like blinking neon lights. It drives his story. If you won't accept the basic premise, you're not going to enjoy the ride.

[Knaight]

Look at a comment just made. Jessica Jones and Luke don't need to look the part. Because they are special in some way. Yet in the comic's they are shown to be waay more physically fit. Not only that, it is pervasively all through comics, that the characters are are shown to be way more fit then normal humans. Yet for some reason, this guy has to look like bruce lee, and act like ... I don't know insert some uber narvana sounding monk.

They don't need to look the part for a part they don't actually have, yes. Similarly, the various character playing lawyers and politicians in political dramas don't need to look like martial artists. Sitcom protagonists generally don't need to look like martial artists. There's a general principle here, and it's that looking the part is relative to your actual part.

As far as the original comics go, yes, they've changed dramatically from the earlier comics. Putting aside for now how this drastically contradicts with that judging things on their own merits position that's being espoused elsewhere, the original comics are only relevant for people who both consider them part of the same broader work (and not a different piece of work that can be ignored) and like them enough to think they should have some sort of priority.

[Starbuck_II]

Jessica Jones explicitly has super powers, her ability to throw people around isn't because she trained a bunch and just has that much muscle (much the same way that Luke Cage doesn't need to look like he can pull of the various punching through walls and hurling people across rooms stunts that he has). The actress who played Buffy actually had martial arts training, and it showed, but the super strength was again a supernatural ability. Similarly, Iron Man and The Hulk don't look like they have spectacular strength in their normal incarnations, but it doesn't actually matter because the costumes and CGI for their superpowered incarnations do look capable. Meanwhile someone fairly muscular was cast as Batman, because Batman's strength is supposed to actually come from muscles.

Actually, the Iron Fist is actually a magical power that makes his martial arts better. It isn't just martial arts.

[Vogie]

But it's true. They are showing us a story and it doesn't quite add up to many of us. Quite frankly, Danny Rand does not look or act or fight like someone that has spent the last fifteen years training non-stop to become a supernatural warrior monk. It's cheap. He's just a "normal" person (but rather annoyingly oblivious) that we are *told* is a badass warrior monk. But literally none of his qualities or attributes support that.

That's what makes it poor storytelling. They're having it both ways. He gets to be this rich affable normal guy, but with the Iron Fist. It's like a technicality that he has to have trained for fifteen years to acquire the Iron Fist. They have to mention it, but not really follow through on it.

EDIT: It would be the same with Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. If either character was playing a warrior monk martial arts master that has been training all their life, neither one would really have a body that supports that. Daredevil comes the closest I think.

Precisely. Daredevil's physique shows the amount of work - Charlie Cox was toned for the role. It wasn't a question.

And it makes it even worse that we have an idea of what the Iron Fist should look like on the DC universe side - Stephen Amell from Arrow is ripped and toned. He's not doing the salmon ladder with virtual effects.

Oliver Queen was only on the island (among other places) for 5 years. If Danny Rand really was in a Warrior Monk Training for 15 years, we should be able to see it. He should look like Davos.

And it doesn't help that he starts the series - as in, the first scenes - looking and acting like a "Dude, where's my Car" wannabe.

[Zale]

Finn didn't necessarily need to look like a martial artist, but he certainly needed to convincingly portray a martial artist.

Acting is just about giving enough of a show that people wave plausible deniability away. It's less important that Danny look like a martial artist than that he holds himself like one, or moves like one- or at least how people expect people in martial arts movies to move.

It's about faking it well enough.

Finn Jones just doesn't pull that off. He stands like someone in a beginner's tai chi class; watching him is almost painful at times. Especially when compared to other people in the cast who do a much better job of it.

[thorgrim29]

And it doesn't help that he starts the series - as in, the first scenes - looking and acting like a "Dude, where's my Car" wannabe.

-Dude, where's my company dude?
-I don't know dude where's your company dude?