CR for a creature that can't harm the party.

[Avianmosquito]

This is a simple one: Can a CR really be applied to a creature that can't physically harm the party? I've got an incorporeal creature for Aelsif called the Formless Falsetto that will torment characters with its voice, but can't actually harm them as it has no physical form. Can I give such a thing a CR, since it's not a threat to anybody on its own?

[GalacticAxekick]

This is a simple one: Can a CR really be applied to a creature that can't physically harm the party? I've got an incorporeal creature for Aelsif called the Formless Falsetto that will torment characters with its voice, but can't actually harm them as it has no physical form. Can I give such a thing a CR, since it's not a threat to anybody on its own?

I'm not certain how CR is calculated in 3.5e, and so it's very possible that such a creature would have a CR 0 for being harmless.

But make no mistake, if it can dissuade the party from achieving their goals on its own, or if it can make it difficult for them to face other obstacles, it is a threat.

[Avianmosquito]

I'm not certain how CR is calculated in 3.5e, and so it's very possible that such a creature would have a CR 0 for being harmless.

Oh, it's not harmless. The harm it inflicts just isn't physical, and it can't kill by itself.

But make no mistake, if it can dissuade the party from achieving their goals on its own, or if it can make it difficult for them to face other obstacles, it is a threat.

If inflicting effects like "shaken", preventing rest and compelling them via enchantment to seek out and try to free its physical form (these creatures are fragments of a great old one's disembodied voice) count as "dissuading the party from achieving their goals", then yes. It very definitely does.

[GalacticAxekick]

Oh, it's not harmless. The harm it inflicts just isn't physical, and it can't kill by itself.

I mean, you specifically titled this thread "CR for a creature that can't harm the party". You're free to define harm as including or excluding psychological harm, but at least be consistent.

If inflicting effects like "shaken", preventing rest and compelling them via enchantment to seek out and try to free its physical form (these creatures are fragments of a great old one's disembodied voice) count as "dissuading the party from achieving their goals", then yes. It very definitely does.

The shaken condition by itself is not enough to dissuade the party: people can keep adventuring even if they feel a bit spooked. But the prevention of rest can be lethal, and the enchantent you describe can totally realign their goals, so yes, this creature is very capable of threatening the success of the party.

[erikun]

If it isn't a combat encounter, then you could just treat it as an obstacle to overcome and rate it on the difficulty in doing so. In general, overcoming a creature would be similar to overcoming a hazard with similar required rolls. (Assume taking 10 in such situations to determine difficulty, if with a recent D&D system.)

If the creature can't be fought, can't be attacked, and can't be overcome, then it isn't really an encounter (and can't really have a CR). In that case, it is more a story event or RP encounter and the party should really only gain XP for overcoming that part of the story, as opposed to "defeating" the situation.

[Avianmosquito]

I mean, you specifically titled this thread "CR for a creature that can't harm the party". You're free to define harm as including or excluding psychological harm, but at least be consistent.

That title isn't accurate, I just didn't want to find out if there was a character limit.

The shaken condition by itself is not enough to dissuade the party: people can keep adventuring even if they feel a bit spooked.

That was just one example of how it can weaken the party. It can also inflict despair (as "crushing despair"), penalize concentration, and when defeated (it can't be defeated permanently, but it can be disabled long enough to flee from it) it lets out a scream causes intelligence damage.

But the prevention of rest can be lethal,

Funny thing, in real life schizophrenia can actually be so severe as to often prevent its victims from sleeping. Paranoia already makes it hard to sleep, and when you add on auditory hallucinations sleep sometimes becomes a monumental challenge if not an outright impossibility. As far as I know, none of these people actually die from a lack of sleep because dying of sleep deprivation isn't actually possible.

and the enchantent you describe can totally realign their goals, so yes, this creature is very capable of threatening the success of the party.

That's what it tries to do first. If you don't do what it wants, it starts torturing you next. The entire point of its existence is to get its body freed. Unfortunately, there's a lot of very heavily armed people around the prison of K'Macthia, whose entire purpose is to prevent the mother of monsters from being freed. Trying to do this will get you killed, and even if you did succeed K'Macthia is likely to go on a rampage as soon as she revives in anger for having been impaled in a collapsed temple for millenia.

A bit of a no-win scenario, isn't it?

If it isn't a combat encounter, then you could just treat it as an obstacle to overcome and rate it on the difficulty in doing so. In general, overcoming a creature would be similar to overcoming a hazard with similar required rolls. (Assume taking 10 in such situations to determine difficulty, if with a recent D&D system.)

Whether it is a combat encounter or not depends strictly on whether the party attacks it or not. Otherwise it will continually torment them until they escape it, blast it or do what it wants.

If the creature can't be fought, can't be attacked, and can't be overcome, then it isn't really an encounter (and can't really have a CR). In that case, it is more a story event or RP encounter and the party should really only gain XP for overcoming that part of the story, as opposed to "defeating" the situation.

It can be attacked and defeated like any other incorporeal creature, although it cannot be permanently killed, and it can be escaped from. (It has a fixed movement speed, even. It can only fly at 30ft per round.) It performs as any other incorporeal creature in most respects, except it lacks any abilities that can directly injure or kill.

[Hashmalum]

There is actually precedent for harmless creatures having a CR: ordinary bats have no attacks, but have CR 1/10. Given that this thing can indeed screw with the party in various ways, I think a CR is completely appropriate.

[Avianmosquito]

Beautiful. Now I just need to figure out what its CR would actually be.

[Jormengand]

Really, CR is at least nominally equal to the APL of a party who would spend about a quarter of their daily resources to get rid of a creature, whether that's by making themselves immune to the harm it deals and walking away, or by killing it. So it absolutely can be applied, and even be quite high, for something which can't kill the party.

[Avianmosquito]

Really, CR is at least nominally equal to the APL of a party who would spend about a quarter of their daily resources to get rid of a creature, whether that's by making themselves immune to the harm it deals and walking away, or by killing it. So it absolutely can be applied, and even be quite high, for something which can't kill the party.

Well, if it catches you on a road or something and you're okay with leaving it to go make somebody else's life a living hell, you could be level 1 and by yourself and just run away, provided you can run long enough it'll lose track of you. (It doesn't get tired, after all.) Then it'll go float into a town and harass everybody it can find until they all pick up and move. Then it'll follow their carts and it'll find a new town to harass until they run away. And so on. It's one hell of a menace, primarily for the economic damage it inflicts by forcing people to move. There's a lot of ghost towns in Sohei because of these things.

But, if you want to actually disable it, remembering it can't actually be killed, that might be difficult. It having 10 HD, regeneration and being incorporeal is quite hard for a party to overcome. Disintegrate will one-shot it, but chewing through 45hp with magic missile sucks, especially when competing with regeneration, and everything else has a 50% fail rate. The standard civilian method is to light house house on fire from the outside in, and hope that when it dissipates the wind blows it far enough away to not come back.

[Kaskus]

Posting the full stat block would make evaluation much easier.

[Avianmosquito]

Posting the full stat block would make evaluation much easier.

Formless Falsetto
Medium Aberration, Incorporeal, Celestial (Lesser)
Hit dice: 10d8+0 (45 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Fly 30ft
Armor Class: 14 (+1 dexterity, +3 deflection), flat-footed 13
Base attack/grapple: +7/+3
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6-4)
Full attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6-4) and slam -2 melee (1d6-4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special attacks: Song of the Betrayed, Song of fear, Song of despair, Shocking screech
Special qualities: Ethereal, DR 5, Whispers, Tongues, Invisibility, Regeneration 10, That Which Can Eternal Lie
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 3, Cha 16, Wis 12
Saves: Ref 4, For 3, Will 9
Skills: Perform (Sing) 6
Feats: Alertness, iron will, stealthy
Environment: Otherlands
Organization: Individual
Challenge rating: ???
Advancement: N/A

Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them.

(So yes, while this creature does have attacks, they only affect other ethereal entities. It may beat up the ghost in your attic, though as hopelessly weak as its attacks are even that isn't likely, but it can't hurt anything corporeal.)

DR 5/--

Whispers (Ex): When within 30ft of a formless falsetto, any creature susceptible to mind-affecting spells hears otherworldly falsetto mutterings in their head, causing them to be come shaken for 5d6 rounds unless they succeed a will save with a DC of 18. A listener who succeeds their saving throw is immune to Whispers for 24 hours. The save DC is charisma-based.

Invisibility (Ex): The formless falsetto is a formless, transparent mass and cannot be seen. I am not going to copy+paste the entire ruleset on visible creatures, you know how invisibility works for ethereal entities.

Regeneration (Ex): The formless falsetto never takes lethal damage from an attack, and regenerates 10 hit points each round. The formless falsetto is immune to death effects, and even a coup de grace or failed save against massive damage will only deal nonlethal damage equal to its maximum hit points (45).

That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex): The formless falsetto cannot be slain, but reaching a total amount of non-lethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points (90hp) will force it to dissipate, expanding to colossal size. When dissipated, the formless falsetto's DR rises to 25, but it loses its dexterity and deflection bonus to AC and gains a -8 to AC from its size. The formless falsetto drifts at 5ft/round until it finds wind, and is carried at the speed and in the direction of the wind until it condenses. While dissipated, it only recovers 10 hit points per day, and will not condense again until it recovers to full hit points.

(If you missed it, that means it should drift with the wind for nine days before it regains what little form it has and becomes active again. So yes, there is a point to blasting it, with any luck the wind will blow it far, far away. And even if there's no wind, it'll drift 120 miles on its own in that time, that's far enough that it may not come back. Fingers crossed.)

Tongues (Ex): The formless falsetto speaks and understands all languages.

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

Song of Fear (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a chaotic, lurching song that strikes fear into a single listener within 30ft. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become frightened for 10 minutes. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw. This replaces the shaken effect from the formless falsetto's whispers.

Song of Despair (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a sweeping, tragic song that brings a single listener to tears. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or be inflicted with crushing despair, as the spell, for 10 minutes. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw.

Shocking Screech (Ex): If the formless falsetto is forced to disperse, its last action is to emit an ear-splitting psychic scream that rings in the minds of all listeners within 30ft. All listeners must make a will save with a DC of 18 or receive 1d6 intelligence damage.

Formless Falsettos are five small fragments of K'Macthia's voice. The great old one K'Macthia was betrayed by its worshippers and imprisoned in a collapsed temple, the temple's support column driven through her chest. As it faded it sang a final song in mourning and its telepathic voice separated from its body, shattering into pieces known as the Ethereal Choir. The Betrayed Baritone was the largest piece, the Suffering Soprano was the smallest, the two Battered Basses were second largest, the three Ashamed Altos were the third largest, and the five Formless Falsettos were second smallest.

(Yes, yes. 1, 1, 2, 3, 5. Presumably if I made more types there'd be 8, 13, 21 and so on. I'm sure at least one of you noticed, very good.)

The Formless Falsettos wander the Otherlands around the Tomb of K'Macthia, pleading with those they encounter to free them from the tomb and tormenting those who don't comply with songs of fear and despair until they comply or the falsetto gives up. Unkillable as their body, the fragments of dead K'Macthia will forever seek their body's freedom and resurrection until the day they can rejoin their physical form.

(Is that enough information? Or should I list its combat habits?)

[Bucky]

It should definitely have a CR because it can combine with some actual threats to make them more threatening. And given how much it can stack its debuffs, and its potent defenses, I'd have a hard time seeing it with a lower CR than about 5.

(E): Also, there *is* a lose condition for the party - everyone ends up charmed. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered harmless.

[Avianmosquito]

It should definitely have a CR because it can combine with some actual threats to make them more threatening. And given how much it can stack its debuffs, I'd have a hard time seeing it with a lower CR than about 5.

Most lesser celestials have a CR of about 10, if it has a CR of 5 I'll have to reclassify it as a minor celestial.

(E): Also, there *is* a lose condition for the party - everyone ends up charmed. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered harmless.

Goddamn ninja... Anyway, the charm doesn't last forever. Can you really walk across a continent in 10 hours? I don't think so. It has to keep you failing that save to get you to actually walk to the Tomb of K'Macthia, so it's not a 100% loss. And even then, it's just a charm spell, it's not dominate. If walking across the continent into the alien Otherlands and trying to penetrate territory guarded by a large army is something to which you would vehemently object, it can't get you to do that.

[Bucky]

CR 5 is a lower bound. It might be considerably higher.

(E) How bad 'everyone is charmed' is depends on who gets charmed and at what level. If some of the party members are capable of fast travel, they might well reach the tomb, leaving the others behind.

[Avianmosquito]

CR 5 is a lower bound. It might be considerably higher.

That's good, I was aiming for 10.

(E) How bad 'everyone is charmed' is depends on who gets charmed and at what level. If some of the party members are capable of fast travel, they might well reach the tomb, leaving the others behind.

It is just a charm spell, you know. It's not dominate. Also, the Otherlands stretch for almost 800 miles inland from the Tomb of K'Macthia. (The Tomb of K'Macthia is an island in the Otherseas just off the coast.) That's a LONG way, you know. You'd have to be really, really fast to get there in 10 hours, like 80 miles per hour kind of fast, through xenoformed terrain full of otherworldly fauna and anomalies.

Not to mention when you get there you'd be faced with an entire legion trying to keep you out, most of which are in the level 5-10 range. Because frankly, the slow outward creep of the Otherlands makes our world ****ed ENOUGH without you releasing K'Macthia. (In fact, K'Macthia was betrayed and entombed specifically because people figured out it was creating the Otherlands with its bile. Though now K'Macthia is bleeding, and it turns out its blood also mutates terrestrial life. So we're ****ed anyway and now we've pissed it off. Go team!)

[Bucky]

You'd have to be really, really fast to get there in 10 hours, like 80 miles per hour kind of fast, through xenoformed terrain full of otherworldly fauna and anomalies.

That's within range of Teleport.

Not to mention when you get there you'd be faced with an entire legion trying to keep you out, most of which are in the level 5-10 range. Because frankly, the slow outward creep of the Otherlands makes our world ****ed ENOUGH without you releasing K'Macthia.

Being compelled to fight through an endless legion of monsters for 10 hours sounds like a sufficiently nasty result for losing a fight.

[Avianmosquito]

That's within range of Teleport.

On this episode of Teleport Ruins Everything...

Being compelled to fight through an endless legion of monsters for 10 hours sounds like a sufficiently nasty result for losing a fight.

They aren't monsters, they're a humanoid military. Mostly spirit folk and halflings. And if that sounds like something you'd vehemently object to, you wouldn't do it. Again, it's ONLY a charm, it's not domination. As the spell says: "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing."

This creature is armed with a charm effect and "Please go to my body's tomb and somehow free me from underneath a collapsed building where the central support column has impaled me through the chest, while an entire legion of heavily armed soldiers shoots you with muskets and stabs you with swords.".

[Bucky]

If it's trying to charm PCs, convincing them to break into an ancient, ruined temple might not even require the opposed Charisma check.

[Avianmosquito]

If it's trying to charm PCs, convincing them to break into an ancient, ruined temple might not even require the opposed Charisma check.

POINT.

Do you think the legion of mid-level soldiers trying to stop them is going to make that easier or harder? Actually, there's also the otherlands themselves. Do you think the 800 miles of redzone is going to make them more or less inclined to go that way? While we're at it, how do you think the fact that releasing K'Macthia might result in an apocalyptic rampage may affect it? Or the fact that we're going to be xenoformed either way?

[Bucky]

Depends. Does the PC know how it's guarded? Can they reasonably believe they could do the job without taking on the guards? Do they know what the consequences will be if they're successful? Can the falsetto's +3 Bluff modifier beat their Sense Motive regarding the last point?

[Avianmosquito]

Depends.

Alright, now the GM fun starts.

Does the PC know how it's guarded?

Depends. Knowledge checks and bardic lore may make this a "yes". Because holy **** is it well guarded. A legion means roughly 6,000 soldiers. Add on another 12,000 support staff and an equal number of civilians, and remember that this legion is mostly mid-level, many (hundreds) are high-level and some (dozens) are epic-level. They regularly defeat K'Macthia's children, the great ones it produced with It Yeek'Kal Thet, Sha'nit-Feek'It-La'Kep and Nya-Za'Thoth, and they will annihilate your party. So, can such a force exist without it being common knowledge, at least in the Otherlands? It's a great question.

Can they reasonably believe they could do the job without taking on the guards?

Another question that varies based on PC skill sets.

Do they know what the consequences will be if they're successful?

A rampage, which may or may not be followed by a reduced rate in the Otherlands spreading? They almost certainly don't understand the long-term consequences, but they won't live to see a significant difference anyway. We're talking millenia of spread already, just for 800 miles. It'll take aeons for the whole planet to be xenoformed.

Can the falsetto's +3 Bluff modifier beat their Sense Motive regarding the last point?

Depends on the party. Besides, does sense motive really apply? The Falsetto is quite honest. "Please free me. I just want to continue my work of making your world better (like mine)."

Overwhelming odds are the party will get splattered across the xenoscape anyway, if they do try. That is one massively overwhelming force assembled there.

[Bucky]

In other words, there's a significant chance it can talk at least one party member into going if it charms everyone.

The backup 'plan' is scattering the party by frightening off anyone that knows what they're getting into is also pretty threatening. Then sending one or two people into the Otherlands.

---
Difficulty
---
It's defenses are really potent - DR 5 on top of being incorporeal on top of Regeneration 10. And some of the players hitting it will presumably be Shaken.

Offensively, it's effectively throwing around Save-or-Lose effects. A successful charm or Song of Fear knocks someone out of the fight. This leads to an even harder time overcoming its regeneration.

In other words, it's still a very dangerous encounter by itself until the party can blast through 90 HP with magic AND achieve a sustained 11 DPR through incorporeal miss chances WHILE one party member isn't contributing. I'm not calibrated well enough to know at what level that happens.

A very rough estimate is that it's about as challenging to defeat as an adult dragon (CR 14).

---
mechanics
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The Whispers ability doesn't appear to have the standard no-retries clause for fear auras.

Why does it have ranks in Move Silently when incorporeal creatures auto-succeed Move Silently checks? That might as well be Perform(Sing).

[Avianmosquito]

In other words, there's a significant chance it can talk at least one party member into going if it charms everyone.

The backup 'plan' is scattering the party by frightening off anyone that knows what they're getting into is also pretty threatening. Then sending one or two people into the Otherlands.

Well, people wouldn't burn their houses down over a minor nuisance. And boy, in base 3.5, that wouldn't even work. (Non-magical fire only does 1d6 no matter what? WHY?)

---
Difficulty
---
It's defenses are really potent - DR 5 on top of being incorporeal on top of Regeneration 10. And some of the players hitting it will presumably be Shaken.

Well, a creature that relies on throwing around status effects that can be magically prevented or cured and many party members will have large bonuses or total immunity to probably needs some high defences. Though DR, it's worth remembering, is only relevant to physical damage so most of the firepower going in won't be subject to it.

Offensively, it's effectively throwing around Save-or-Lose effects. A successful charm or Song of Fear knocks someone out of the fight. This leads to an even harder time overcoming its regeneration.

In other words, it's still a very dangerous encounter by itself until the party can blast through 90 HP with magic AND achieve a sustained 11 DPR through incorporeal miss chances WHILE one party member isn't contributing. I'm not calibrated well enough to know at what level that happens.

I'd say around level 11, where the party's casters have spells that can one-shot it. (Harm does it guaranteed in one, disintegrate knocks it down almost to dispersal at caster level 11.) A party lacking a cleric, sorcerer or wizard (or any other caster who can blast out high-damage force or negative energy spells) won't be able to do that, though.

A very rough estimate is that it's about as challenging to defeat as an adult dragon (CR 14).

Oh good, that's the very upper limit of the "lesser celestial" range. (Minor celestials are CR 5-9, lesser is 10-14, greater is 15-19. 20-29 is great ones, and the great old ones are 30+. It says something about Aelsif's aliens that CR 9 is "minor" and CR 14 is "lesser", doesn't it?)

Now, that is less than ideal. I had hoped it would be a little weaker than that. Perhaps I can lower the CR by extending the time it takes to sing its songs? A full minute, perhaps?

---
mechanics
---
The Whispers ability doesn't appear to have the standard no-retries clause for fear auras.

That's an error on my part, it should have it.

Why does it have ranks in Move Silently when incorporeal creatures auto-succeed Move Silently checks? That might as well be Perform(Sing).

Because I forgot that.

I'll fix those now.

[noob]

This creature should have a significant cr: it can help a lot another creature to attack the team.
for Cring there is a war independent of philosophical questions:count hit dice(and multiply by the type modifier which is 1/4 for aberration) then add bonuses for abilities(+1 for a weak defensive or offensive ability +2 for a strong one)
I guess that with that it reach high CR
It have two insane defensive abilities: high regen+dr and incorporeal+etheral
(probably +4 cr)
10 aberration hit dice(+2.5 cr)
And have a lot of attacks that are: make saves or be super screwed which corresponds to the kind of attack a creature of a cr between 9 and 12 could have(a creature of a cr lower than 9 with a save dc of this kind is an oddity in pathfinder which is quite near to 3.5)http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/b...rCreation.html
but since it fits in "powerful special attack"(if there was a super crazily one shot ultimate death final super special attack category it would be in it but they never through there would be a monster with such game ending powers) I guess this means that it is only a +2
So it have a CR of at least 8.5(2+4+2.5)


"Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them."
the description you do after the properties of being incorporeal and ethereal are not included in the two previous ones:ethereal and incorporeal creatures can fight normally only creatures that are both.

The ultimate offensive ability it have is the following:

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

1: It is extraordinary which is conveniant.
2: it is not charm person nor charm monster it just makes the target charmed which is a condition which is never described and which have no reasons whatsoever to end when the target is harmed by the person who charmed it.
3: Once the target is charmed you can make pleas which makes the subject behave like if he was affected by charm person at the moment the plea is done.
So the formless falsetto might start casting this spell on all his opponents then he might kill them with ease(just need the time for them to starve) since each time he attacks one of his targets(with the fear stuff) he can just after that make the plea of freeing him from his tomb(and so the target do that like if he was under charm person and so can not attack the caster) then use again his attack.
This monster can cause tpk and it is not unlikely to do that.

[Avianmosquito]

This creature should have a significant cr: it can help a lot another creature to attack the team.
for Cring there is a war independent of philosophical questions:count hit dice(and multiply by the type modifier which is 1/4 for aberration) then add bonuses for abilities(+1 for a weak defensive or offensive ability +2 for a strong one)
I guess that with that it reach high CR
It have two insane defensive abilities: high regen+dr and incorporeal+etheral
(probably +4 cr)
10 aberration hit dice(+2.5 cr)
And have a lot of attacks that are: make saves or be super screwed which corresponds to the kind of attack a creature of a cr between 9 and 12 could have(a creature of a cr lower than 9 with a save dc of this kind is an oddity in pathfinder which is quite near to 3.5)http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/b...rCreation.html
but since it fits in "powerful special attack"(if there was a super crazily one shot ultimate death final super special attack category it would be in it but they never through there would be a monster with such game ending powers) I guess this means that it is only a +2
So it have a CR of at least 8.5(2+4+2.5)


"Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them."
the description you do after the properties of being incorporeal and ethereal are not included in the two previous ones:ethereal and incorporeal creatures can fight normally only creatures that are both.

The ultimate offensive ability it have is the following:

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

1: It is extraordinary which is conveniant.
2: it is not charm person nor charm monster it just makes the target charmed which is a condition which is never described and which have no reasons whatsoever to end when the target is harmed by the person who charmed it.
3: Once the target is charmed you can make pleas which makes the subject behave like if he was affected by charm person at the moment the plea is done.
So the formless falsetto might start casting this spell on all his opponents then he might kill them with ease(just need the time for them to starve) since each time he attacks one of his targets(with the fear stuff) he can just after that make the plea of freeing him from his tomb(and so the target do that like if he was under charm person and so can not attack the caster) then use again his attack.
This monster can cause tpk and it is not unlikely to do that.

This is really starting to PISS ME OFF.

Charm cannot do ANY of that. In fact, DOMINATE can't do ANY of that. It is JUST a CHARM effect, it follows the exact same rules in what it can and cannot do as ANY OTHER charm effect, just like ANY other creature with a charm effect, and there are many of those. The rulebook is VERY EXPLICIT on exactly what "charm" means in monster abilities, and you can't just ignore literally every single rule to pretend an effect achievable by a level-1 spell is an instant TPK.

Have a link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

A VAMPIRE can do better than that.

[noob]

Sorry but the ability is never said to be a charm effect it is only said that the creature is charmed which makes it entirely unsimilar from a level 1 spell.
Furthermore for tpk it also needed to make creatures be stuck by fear stacking for reaching the cowering state(else the creatures would then research food when they start to be hungry) and then once the creatures are cowering the wisp can just keep making them afraid freezing them until they succeed an high number of saves in a row(due to the 10 minutes duration of the spell which means that the creature can try more than 10 times on each adventurer the time the fear ends on one of them(but the creature on the other hand needs 3 success per adventurer every 10 minutes))

[Avianmosquito]

Sorry but the ability is never said to be a charm effect it is only said that the creature is charmed which makes it entirely unsimilar from a level 1 spell.

It doesn't have to say "This charm is a charm effect like the charm spell and follows charm rules because it is a charm effect and only does what charm can do because CHARM CHARM CHARM CHARM CHARM.", charm is a recognized term with a specific meaning. Shaken is also a recognize term with a specific meaning, so is damage, so is literally everything else here. I do not have to copy+paste the entire rulebook after every game term, this isn't a Bee Movie meme.

Oh, and frightened can also do nothing you think it can do. The SRD is explicit then too.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

Panicked can't even make a character starve to death, much less frightened. All frightened will do is make a character run away from a creature that can't move fast enough to seriously pursue.

The combat habits of the creature directly reflect this. It is unkillable and has an agenda, so all it does is use song of the betrayed to try and get itself freed, if it fails then it uses song of despair to lower their save and check bonuses and tries again. If it won't work or they attack it in a way that actually causes damage, it uses song of fear to make them **** off and it moves on to the next target. Not only can it not intentionally kill ANY corporeal entity, it doesn't want to.

[noob]

Cowering

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).

It is the final state of fear.(source: the page you quoted)

The cr of a creature do not depends on what mister B wants but of what a creature of this kind could do in a battle(which is way less horrible than what a creature can do if he plans instead of fighting)

[Avianmosquito]

it is the final state of fear.(source: The page you quoted)

Frightened characters DO NOT cower. Cowering requires PANIC.

You're clearly a troll. I'm done with you.