Ladies... the female gaze?

[golentan]

Bujold is amazing just in general.

Wish I'd noticed that comment.

[Sermil]

Well, as long as this is turning into a Bujold-fest, I'll throw in the first time Cordelia Naismith, Miles' eventual mother, noticed something positive about Aral Vorkosigan, Miles' eventual father, in Shards of Honor, right after he makes a tricky shot with a stunner:

Vorkosigan grinned like a boy over his shoulder at her, and jogged after his prize.
"Oh," she murmured, stunned herself by the effect of the grin. It had lit his face like the sun for that brief instant. Oh, do that again, she thought; then shook off the thought. Duty. Stick to duty.

[factotum]

Well, as long as this is turning into a Bujold-fest, I'll throw in the first time Cordelia Naismith, Miles' eventual mother, noticed something positive about Aral Vorkosigan, Miles' eventual father, in Shards of Honor, right after he makes a tricky shot with a stunner:

I would say that one applies to both genders, surely? Leastways, I always think a woman is far more attractive when they're smiling, which is why I don't understand why fashion shoots usually have their models looking so utterly miserable...

[Sermil]

I would say that one applies to both genders, surely? Leastways, I always think a woman is far more attractive when they're smiling, which is why I don't understand why fashion shoots usually have their models looking so utterly miserable...

Slightly off-topic: They're not trying to look attractive, they're trying to look high-status. As a rule, low-status people smile at high-status people, high-status people don't smile for low-status people. It's a way of ingratiating yourself. Think of the classic image of young worker trying to impress her new boss. The worker is usually smiling and trying to look eager; the boss is giving her a 'we'll see' frown. If you look at ads for low-end clothes, the models are usually smiling and looking happy; as you move up the status chain, the models look more and more seriously and cold. That coldness makes they look like they are 'above' you in the social hierarchy, and therefore, if you wear these clothes, you too will move up the social hierarchy.

[minderp]

"...so I absent-mindedly tucked my ankle behind my ear..."

Wait, if i read the following comments correctly, i'm getting the popular opinion that this isn't an appropriate way to greet someone and show coyness? Dammit, all that yoga for nothing...

[Scarlet Knight]

Wait, if i read the following comments correctly, i'm getting the popular opinion that this isn't an appropriate way to greet someone and show coyness? Dammit, all that yoga for nothing...

I think I love you...

[Liquor Box]

I attempted to read 50 shades to see what was so great about it...it's not. It really, really is not a good read. I couldn't even bring myself to finish it. In fact, reading something like that (which was originally twilight fanfiction, and it really shows) or twilight itself is probably detrimental to having a good example.

There's something between younger girls (maybe like 10-14) and older where what they think is attractive and romantic are completely different. From what I've seen, the younger and inexperienced will think things like jealousy, possessiveness, stalking! (in the case of twilight) or emotionless (50 shades) are romantic. Get a tiny bit older or experience it in real life, and you can see how terrible it is. I'm not really sure what it is that makes a lot of girls think this way, I assume it's the media they are exposed to while younger on what a 'cool' or 'desirable' man would be like and they have no real world experience to make their own judgements off yet.

Using 50 shades as an example, the lead male character's (I forgot his name) behaviour was controlling and entirely sexually driven. I think it was supposed to be romantic in there somewhere but I didn't see it, it was just sex for the sake of sex while saying there was chemistry and there wasn't. It also just, made no sense at all, feeling very forced on why the two are even together. I could never read twilight but I hear the same from that, that the characters relationship felt very forced.

I noticed this comment because it stands out in such stark contrast to the success of the novel - it is immensely popular with women of all ages. i haven't read it myself, so don't have a personal opinion on how good it is or isn't.

I suppose this illustrates different strokes for different folks. Whatever the OP writes, it will resonate with some females as to where their gaze would go, and not to others. Pick and idea from the thread and run with it.

[minderp]

I think I love you...

*absent-mindedly tucks the other ankle behind the first*...

[StarLightPips]

Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking (Sounds petty but it's kinda true). If people put a negative connotation to what you've written it's more than likely they're projecting sterotypes of people onto your writting.

TL;DR Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

[Sajiri]

I noticed this comment because it stands out in such stark contrast to the success of the novel - it is immensely popular with women of all ages. i haven't read it myself, so don't have a personal opinion on how good it is or isn't.

I suppose this illustrates different strokes for different folks. Whatever the OP writes, it will resonate with some females as to where their gaze would go, and not to others. Pick and idea from the thread and run with it.

I remember noticing very clearly that whenever anything sexual came up in it, the grammar and spelling suddenly became very bad :/ I felt like I was the only one who noticed it.

Also maybe Im just hard to please. I read a lot, I also write a lot, and to me it felt like the popularity of 50 shades was based entirely on the fact that 1. there was a lot of sex and 2. it was piggy backing on something else originally (twilight). From my experience, most people who I personally know and liked it were the people that don't read novels very often. Descriptions consisted of hair colour, eye colour, and outfits, and nothing else. Most actions were blinking, gasping, and main-character-guy-who's-name-I-forget constantly running his hand through his hair. The lead female was described as plain, clumsy, never wore makeup or fancy clothes, but she somehow had, it felt like, every introduced male character pining after her. The author I think had a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'. It was complete with little anime-esque style descriptions of what I could imagine a chibi version of herself dancing or drooling in a thought bubble over her head aka her 'inner goddess'. Also Im pretty sure the book was called 50 Shades of Grey because main-guy's eyes were described over the book in 50 different ways of they are SO GREY AND BEAUTIFUL.

I am probably being harsh and overthinking this and there's nothing wrong with anyone who likes it of course (If I have offended anyone or my comments disagree with someone else's opinion, I apologise. This is all my own personal opinions and thoughts on what makes things like 50 shades so successful and what I think is wrong with it). It does interest me that it is so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly. I suppose if you have enough sex in something it will become popular, just like when the Avatar movie was rereleased in cinemas and as soon as it was announced to have a longer sex scene, a lot of people suddenly decide they had to see it.

However, I say 50 shades as a bad example because I dont think it was attempting to set out to do what it actually did- which was write about what is honestly a very abusive relationship taking advantage of an inexperienced young woman. I admit I didnt read all the way to the end, but it really didnt seem like it was going to build up to anything to do with that realisation, it seemed like it was attempting to go for misunderstood man can learn to love by finding a pure hearted wife material girlfriend or something, and failing terribly. It was essentially porn, but because it was a book, it was seen as more classy, and because it was then popular even more people flocked to it and it was seen as more acceptable to like it or something.

I also recall it offending the BDSM community, as what they do is built on trust, but again, the book presented it in an entirely controlling and abusive manner. The controversy probably also helped garner interest, and I think hearing that was also what finally got me curious to see what the big deal with it all was and try reading it. Its funny how one fanfiction story could do all this.

[minderp]

...a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'...
...so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly...

It is actually the first book i could not finish, and i have read some incredibly awful books among the thousands. The grammar was painful.
Some sections sounded like she found a thesaurus and set herself the challenge to never repeat a word, no matter how far stretched the words became.
And then, yes, the favourite words, over and over and over.
It was painful.
I tried, i'm a hairdresser, EVERY 40 something to 50 something client had read it and wanted to talk about it. So i tried, for the same reason i read the newspaper and those terrible celebrity magazines - so i can talk about SOMETHING with housewives of all age. But i couldn't. I just couldn't finish it.

[scalyfreak]

One important aspect of the female gaze (though I hate gender labels and would prefer to assign this one to a personality type instead):

How does he treat people who "don't matter", when no one is looking? Is he nice to the annoying four year old child because he's trying to get on the mother's good side, or because he likes kids? What are his friends like? And how many of them are female, and how does he treat them? How does he treat his mother and sisters? Nephews?

Et Cetera.

All of the above gives hints about what kind of person someone is, and that makes it very important when you're watching a guy while trying to determine if he is relationship material. Or one-night-stand material, for that matter.

[Liquor Box]

I remember noticing very clearly that whenever anything sexual came up in it, the grammar and spelling suddenly became very bad :/ I felt like I was the only one who noticed it.

Also maybe Im just hard to please. I read a lot, I also write a lot, and to me it felt like the popularity of 50 shades was based entirely on the fact that 1. there was a lot of sex and 2. it was piggy backing on something else originally (twilight). From my experience, most people who I personally know and liked it were the people that don't read novels very often. Descriptions consisted of hair colour, eye colour, and outfits, and nothing else. Most actions were blinking, gasping, and main-character-guy-who's-name-I-forget constantly running his hand through his hair. The lead female was described as plain, clumsy, never wore makeup or fancy clothes, but she somehow had, it felt like, every introduced male character pining after her. The author I think had a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'. It was complete with little anime-esque style descriptions of what I could imagine a chibi version of herself dancing or drooling in a thought bubble over her head aka her 'inner goddess'. Also Im pretty sure the book was called 50 Shades of Grey because main-guy's eyes were described over the book in 50 different ways of they are SO GREY AND BEAUTIFUL.

I am probably being harsh and overthinking this and there's nothing wrong with anyone who likes it of course (If I have offended anyone or my comments disagree with someone else's opinion, I apologise. This is all my own personal opinions and thoughts on what makes things like 50 shades so successful and what I think is wrong with it). It does interest me that it is so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly. I suppose if you have enough sex in something it will become popular, just like when the Avatar movie was rereleased in cinemas and as soon as it was announced to have a longer sex scene, a lot of people suddenly decide they had to see it.

However, I say 50 shades as a bad example because I dont think it was attempting to set out to do what it actually did- which was write about what is honestly a very abusive relationship taking advantage of an inexperienced young woman. I admit I didnt read all the way to the end, but it really didnt seem like it was going to build up to anything to do with that realisation, it seemed like it was attempting to go for misunderstood man can learn to love by finding a pure hearted wife material girlfriend or something, and failing terribly. It was essentially porn, but because it was a book, it was seen as more classy, and because it was then popular even more people flocked to it and it was seen as more acceptable to like it or something.

I also recall it offending the BDSM community, as what they do is built on trust, but again, the book presented it in an entirely controlling and abusive manner. The controversy probably also helped garner interest, and I think hearing that was also what finally got me curious to see what the big deal with it all was and try reading it. Its funny how one fanfiction story could do all this.

Sure, I think it still comes down to different strokes for different folks. Other than your point about grammar and spelling, I don’t think there is one “right” or “good” way to write a scene like this – it is subjective and (like 50 Shades) what is good writing or a good story for some, will not be for others.

It sounds like you are a person of refined literary tastes, so I’m sure there will books that appeal to you that do not appeal to the mainstream, and books that appeal to the mainstream that do not appeal to you (like 50 Shades). It also sounds like you have a moral objection to the relationship depicted in the book, but most readers of the book did not.

I guess my point is that the OP will not be able to please everyone (or every female) with how he depicts the female gaze. Your post demonstrates that an example (50 Shades) that appeals to many, does not appeal to all. Is 50 Shades a good example for the OP to follow? Some readers will things so, some (like you) will not, and in the end it comes down to whether that book resonates with the sort of story/scene the OP is trying to write.

[Honest Tiefling]

I tried, i'm a hairdresser, EVERY 40 something to 50 something client had read it and wanted to talk about it. So i tried, for the same reason i read the newspaper and those terrible celebrity magazines - so i can talk about SOMETHING with housewives of all age. But i couldn't. I just couldn't finish it.

This thread was at first educational. Now it has become the thing of nightmares. I will tip my next quiet hairdresser well in the memory of your sanity.

[minderp]

This thread was at first educational. Now it has become the thing of nightmares. I will tip my next quiet hairdresser well in the memory of your sanity.

I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks to my occupation, i can name all of the Kardashians - there is no hope left for my sanity.

[Kyberwulf]

First off, I would like to say, I dislike it when people say one group writes something better then another group. I have seen good writing from one side of equation. I have seen bad writing of the other-side.

ON the topic at hand. I don't think it is going to be an easy question to ask. It's not like you are logging on and asking how to fix a carburetor. Writing people is going to be more complex then that.

One thing you will have to consider first. The culture she lives in. As the author, you have a lot of leeway in that respect. When you are writing try to think how the character views her culture's value. What the culture sets as the benchmark will determine what she looks for in a partner. When you are writing a scene like this, people will generally pick up what is considered desirable, and what isn't by what is focused on, and what isn't.

Take for instance, when you said that they share a communal bath. That says a LOT about the culture and how they view their bodies. Which is very important.

Also take note of the social status of the person. Both the voyeur, and the voyeuree. This might same trite, but it is an important consideration for context.

The next thing to consider is how she views herself in this culture. Once you can figure out how the culture works, you can see how see would view herself in the culture. What she would find attractive because of what he can provide. What is so unattractive about other people, that he does well.

I bring this up, because when someone starts falling for someone, they look at more then just physical attributes. Well, certain body parts take on different meanings.

From the original post, I will assume you are a guy. Don't you ever notice when you are checking out the ladies, you look at them and formulate different thoughts? Like a certain way they dress or act. What body parts you can see, or can't see? It takes on a different meaning in your head. You can see the same type of clothes on different women and have different ideas about what they mean to you as potential partners. There has to have been a time when you written off someone as one thing, only to have them change their persona. That one time you stopped seeing them as a label, as seen them as a person.

That's the moment you have to capture when they are in the scene. Which is probably, why you have to go back and rewrite some scenes. I am guessing. To write that scene you will have to go back and drop back moments where she sees the and experiences when he goes against the culture or does something that is exemplary. The moment where Buttercup realizes what "as you wish means."

Also, we(that includes you) need more information about her, to really determine what she would find attractive. The more you find out about her, the more you can reflect how she sees the world. How she sees the culture influences how she sees him. How he fights it, how it weighs him down, or how he thrives in it. Most importantly, how she can best help him, moreover that she WANTS to help him. (note, I am only using female pronouns as the agent here, because the was asked for it from that perspective. The gender pronoun can be flipped.) That she WANTS to be something special to him.

This is were the social standings comes into play. What she does would depend on if she views herself of lower, equal or higher station. What her potential options according to culture is, depends on how the scene plays out.

Also, It would help to know about the other character, how we know or don't know how he feels about her and the situation. Again social ques, as far as culture goes. How he looks, vs how he acts can help. If he is Gaston or Beast. How he looks physically. Does he have like, a surfer body, a runners body, arnold body. You said she is a fitness freek. That could juxtapose nicely against the fact that he is a musician. I mean, musicians aren't known for the physicality.

I mean the scene could go she is bathing in the water. She notices him sitting on the edge of the pool. What she never noticed, as he sits there in a robe slightly opened at the top, is the quiet determination as he focuses on his instrument. The way he pushes the distractions of the pool away so he can get the strings to the perfect note. The way she never noticed how perfect his voice is as he harmonizes.(remember, to use the word perfect as much as you can.)

Remember though. When writing don't think. Is this how a (label) would act. Instead think how a person would act.

I don't know how serious of a response you wanted. Hope this helps. A lot more wordy then what other people said. I just want to say though. Knowing your characters helps the most. When you can come on and describe your characters, you will know how they will act. Don't worry so much about anyone will perceive them. A lot of the best characters go against the mold. Also, when you know your characters, the scene will write itself.

[Aedilred]

My understanding of 50 Shades is that its success was all about content. People enjoyed and/or were titillated by the sex scenes and BDSM content (whether the novels actually offered an accurate portrayal of BDSM is another matter). However, stylistically, the books are terrible, replete with lumpen similes, mixed metaphors, malapropisms, passages that read like they haven't been properly edited, and generally the sort of prose you might write as an adolescent on a bad day, then find a few years later and cringe with embarrassment that you ever committed such drivel to text.

Perhaps the books do in some sense offer a reasonable representation of the way a woman in such situations might think about such things, but even if they do, the language used to convey it is so poor that I can't imagine it's a text worth taking as your model for such things.

Just because something's popular doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

[Scarlet Knight]

Just because something's popular doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

True, but 50 Shades was the first S&M book I ever saw that house-wives were willing to walk around with in public. Not Story of O or Madonna's Erotica, hey, they often hid their Harlequins!

Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking ....
Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

Any Jack Nicholson fans out there? :
Woman : "How do you write women so well?"
Melvin Udall (Jack): "I think of a man. And I take away reason and accountability."

[Marlowe]

Another Bujold fan; notice she takes time to mention what people are wearing. Might seem like a minor detail, but it can say a lot about who they are, how they see themselves, and how they were planning on spending the day when they got up that morning.

[Brother Oni]

Straight women are going to look at abs, hips (especially if they're narrow in comparison to broad shoulders), what I like to call the runners V which is really just the indentation from the hips down and inwards.

In art, the 'runner's V' is more formally known as the Apollo's Belt or Adonis belt.

To support the general sentiment of the thread, it depends on the character primarily and to a lesser extent, their culture. For example, my wife likes broad chest and shoulders while all her sisters prefer thin lean men.

[Honest Tiefling]

Another Bujold fan; notice she takes time to mention what people are wearing. Might seem like a minor detail, but it can say a lot about who they are, how they see themselves, and how they were planning on spending the day when they got up that morning.

Also says a lot about the observer! Through I have only read one of her books, Ethan of Athos. I don't recall him mentioning that, but the main character is a pediatrician and probably an idiot when it comes to fashion.

[thorgrim29]

Also says a lot about the observer! Through I have only read one of her books, Ethan of Athos. I don't recall him mentioning that, but the main character is a pediatrician and probably an idiot when it comes to fashion.

And Ethan is from a crazy ascetic cult obsessed with sin so fashion options are probably limited

[Themrys]

Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking (Sounds petty but it's kinda true). If people put a negative connotation to what you've written it's more than likely they're projecting sterotypes of people onto your writting.

TL;DR Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

No. It is not.

Look at Jim C. Hines' blog, the article "If we wrote men like we write women". It takes some more blatant examples of male gaze, and switches the sexes in the piece of writing. If you are not a very exceptional woman, who manages to somehow dehumanize and objectify men despite being fed narratives from a male PoV for all your life, then you will notice very big differences to how you look at men.

The female gaze may be almost the same as that of men who actually consider women human. Sure. But that perfect situation is not the case everywhere.


As was suggested before: Read books by women. Just ... read decent, high-quality books by women. Do not read Fifty Shades of Grey or Twilight. Those latter ones might also reflect how some women think, but unless exactly those women are your target audience, it is a bad idea to target your writing at them. I assume you want to write something for a more general audience so ... let yourself be inspired by books for a more general audience.

[2D8HP]

...Look at Jim C. Hines' blog

Oh I read that! (I checked out his Fable: Blood of Heroes from the library, so I looked out his blog) He also poses in the same position as the women pictured on the covers of different fantasy novels and comments on how much pain they cause:

Cover Posing - Jim C. Hines

It sounds strident, but it's actually hilarious!

As was suggested before: Read books by women.

I recommended these before in a different thread:

This week I finished The Burning Page, the third and last novel in a series after The Invisible Library, and
The Masked City.

It was AWESOME!

Now I'm about to start A Conjuring of Light, the third novel in a series after A Darker Shade of Magic, and
A Gathering of Shadows, which I've been eagerly awaiting the publication of FOR TOO LONG!

The first sentence reads:

"Delilah Bard - always a thief, recently a magician, and one day, hopefully, a pirate - was running as fast as she could.



Meet you later, I'll be reading!

Both series are written by women, with women protagonist, but most of the rest of the characters are men, so the lead characters gaze at them.

And in the Shades of Magic series two of the men gaze at each other, so twice the gaze to steal emulate!

I'm sure I've read that much "gaze" before (the Anne Rice I read decades ago I'm sure did), but I have a poor memory for it.

The "gaze" in incidental (both series are page-turning fantasy adventures, which is what I was looking for), but you could do worse.

Recommended.

[scalyfreak]

Elisabeth Moon's books about Paksenarrion might be worthwhile as well. Next to nothing romantic going on, at least not for the main female protagonist, but in addition to a very well written female perspective, they also portray a paladin very well.