The Least Stat-Dependent PC

[Addaran]

How are moon Druids not stat dependent in combat if they're wild shaping to get good stats for combat?

He meant as in resources spend. Your initial stats are irrelevant and you don't need to use your ASI on them (in fact, it's useless, since your physical stats get replaced.) So you only need to invest in one stat with point buy or you could just have one good stat while rolling.

Even with crappy wisdom, you're kinda okay until some spells are thrown at you.


edit: Shadowmonk'ed

[Tanarii]

Your base stats are irrelevant.

Okay so the answer is an assumption the OP means base stats when he says least stat dependent in combat. That's not unreasonable.

OP is that what you mean? Because it certainly makes Moon Druid the least stat dependent. Almost any other character (including Beastmaster Ranger) is attack stat dependent in combat.

[Mjolnirbear]

As an aside, my understanding is BM Ranger is mechanically fine. Most people are dissatisfied with its implementation. Furthermore all classes are balanced within a fairly narrow margin. Paladins are strong, wizards are flexible, but no class is outright broken nor are there trap classes. They all function well enough to have fun with.

[Citan]

Context:

1. I don't consider myself an optimizer, but among my group of friends I may be the most inclined to optimize
2. I recently made a beast master ranger (to get away from the optimizing mentality), precisely because it was considered a weak class (on forums), and built my character from an RP perspective. I had a blast and became attached to the character
3. some talk about the importance (or unimportance) of ASIs got me to thinking:

Question: How could you build a character that is "good enough" in combat yet minimally dependent on ability scores and ASIs? Caster and non-caster options, please.

Logic: insofar as your abilities are not necessary to character function, you could use your abilities, skills, feats and other options to support character choices.

Clarity: I'm not sure how clear the question is, so I'll come back and edit it as needed.

Easy enough when you break down to the following.
a) Being resilient (high AC, possibly high saves)
b) Being good enough on attacks.

1. Paladin (Devotion recommended):
AC: heavy armor
Defense: Aura of Protection (at least +1 on all saves)
Attack: Sacred Weapon + Bless.
You can easily start with 16 in STR, CON and CHA as a Half-Elf, and you are excellent in both offense and defense.
Even if you don't want to optimize, you can fare well by maxing only either your main attack stat or your casting stat (depending on Oath), you will still get some nice bonus and you can compensate with your spells as needed.

2. Rogue (Arcane Trickster recommended)
AC: a bit lacking at first, but with DEX you can reach 17, which is respectable.
Defense: Uncanny Dodge, halving damage is always good. You also get Shield and Mirror Image, possibly Haste
Attack: you can only rely on DEX, and you have option to go ranged.
You can very well stay safely at range, so all you need really is DEX.

3. Bear Barbarian
AC: you can forego Unarmored to go medium + shield if you prefer defense.
Defense: Danger Sense, Feral Instinct, Relentless Rage, resistance to all damage.
If you don't care that much about Unarmored Defense, you just need a 14 in DEX and go wild, the only thing you can do is Attack with STR anyways.

4. Fighter (Eldricht Knight recommended)
Especially with feats allowed this is potentially one of the best, but even without.
AC: heavy armor.
Defense: Action Surge (you can Dodge ;)), Indomitable, Healing Surge.
Attack: 4*attacks.
You can very well max only your attack stat and be done with it, or start with very bad stats and bump them to honest levels with so many ASI (especially without feats).
If feats are allowed, you can easily max both attack (GWM/Sharpshooter) and defense (Resilient, Tough, Defensive Duelist, Durable).
AND you get the usual Shield + Mirror Image/Blur/Misty Step.

5. Moon Druid (lvl 10+)
extra squishy normally, but you get physical stats of your Wild Shape, so as you improve it you get better. It also makes for a hefty amount of temp hp.

6. Wizard (lvl 18+ )
Shield as a free reaction, what else?

[tkuremento]

You're right, I meant 16-17 to start.

It could be possible with the common houserule I see of no VHuman because everyone gets 1 feat to start so you could with a half feat that gives +1 to your 17. But RAW, nope :P

[BurgerBeast]

Thanks everyone for the replies. To provide clarity (I hope) I meant, at least in theory and insofar as it is possible, a character for whom ability scores matter the least.

In other words, if I just want to be able to assign the initial ability scores however I want (because I want to play a wise, charismatic character, or because I want to play a strong, intelligent character), which class(es) best facilitates this?

It seemed likely to me that the answer would boil down to a caster that specializes in spells with no save. But I wanted to also consider non-casters.

Essentially I wanted to know which classes would give freedom to build the rest of the character however I want - from ability score placement to feat and skill choices. So, in answer to the ability score question: they shouldn't matter. The player would still get to roll or use the standard array, but you (the commenter) would have no control over where the scores ended up assigned.

You might think of it as: which class is best if you have to choose it first, there will never be an ASI (only feats), but then abilities, skills, and feats are randomly assigned (edit: race also)?

Edit: they wouldn't be randomly assigned, though. They'd be chosen by a player who chooses solely for character reasons - not for optimizing.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

There isn't a non-caster option for that.

[BurgerBeast]

There isn't a non-caster option for that.

There is, by definition, a non-caster option, because I said "least" dependent. So of the non-caster classes, in your opinion, which would function best (not well - best)?

[mgshamster]

There is, by definition, a non-caster option, because I said "least" dependent. So of the non-caster classes, in your opinion, which would function best (not well - best)?

If you wanted to attack, then any martial with only one stat requirement (either strength or Dex).

Personally, I'd go thief. You would only need Dex, and just having it at 14 is good enough. Then use your bonus actions for other stuff (like getting away or helping allies via use an object). Your expertise can be put in skills you want to excel in that you have a higher stat.

And if you really wanted to, you could even ignore Dex, pick up magic initiate, and grab an attack cantrip that uses whatever your highest mental stat is.

Or, as a second option, just throw in straight 12s to all your stats and be a well rounded character. You'll do just fine in the game with any class.

[Citan]

Thanks everyone for the replies. To provide clarity (I hope) I meant, at least in theory and insofar as it is possible, a character for whom ability scores matter the least.

In other words, if I just want to be able to assign the initial ability scores however I want (because I want to play a wise, charismatic character, or because I want to play a strong, intelligent character), which class(es) best facilitates this?

It seemed likely to me that the answer would boil down to a caster that specializes in spells with no save. But I wanted to also consider non-casters.

Essentially I wanted to know which classes would give freedom to build the rest of the character however I want - from ability score placement to feat and skill choices. So, in answer to the ability score question: they shouldn't matter. The player would still get to roll or use the standard array, but you (the commenter) would have no control over where the scores ended up assigned.

You might think of it as: which class is best if you have to choose it first, there will never be an ASI (only feats), but then abilities, skills, and feats are randomly assigned (edit: race also)?

Edit: they wouldn't be randomly assigned, though. They'd be chosen by a player who chooses solely for character reasons - not for optimizing.

As long as feats are allowed in your game, most classes will do.
INT? go Wizard with Shocking Grasp and be done with it.
CHA? Valor Bard or Tome Warlock if you really want to be the less possible dependent (to get Shillelagh).
WIS? Nature Cleric, Druid, Monk with Magic Initiate welcomes you.
STR/DEX/other (like balanced stats across the board): see Fighter and Rogue for well-rounded, Barbarian and Ranger for more extremes. :)

Enjoy!

[BurgerBeast]

As long as feats are allowed in your game, most classes will do.
INT? go Wizard with Shocking Grasp and be done with it.
CHA? Valor Bard or Tome Warlock if you really want to be the less possible dependent (to get Shillelagh).
WIS? Nature Cleric, Druid, Monk with Magic Initiate welcomes you.
STR/DEX/other (like balanced stats across the board): see Fighter and Rogue for well-rounded, Barbarian and Ranger for more extremes. :)

Enjoy!

Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?

[RickAllison]

Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?

That can work with a few things. If multiclassing and Elemental Evil Player's Companion are allowed, a magically-inclined Fighter or Rogue can work with either a feat, Druid 1, or Nature Cleric 1 for Wisdom or Tomelock 3 for Charisma to pick up Shillelagh (Fighter) or Magic Stone (kind of for Fighter, but mainly for Rogue). Int would be a little bit tricky to accomplish without being a dedicated caster, while the Fighter or Rogue are general enough that you can make them work with Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, or Charisma.

In general, one or two-level dips can make a lot of unorthodox builds possible if you have 13s for the appropriate stats (which is just north of average for a PC). Warlock 2 for Eldritch Blast can make anyone with a decent Charisma viable for combat (not amazing, but we don't care about that) while the rest of the build can focus on RP-related stuff. For Wisdom, Nature Cleric 1 for Shillelagh and heavy armor can make a main class with Extra Attack viable and a little bit resilient while the rest of the build focuses elsewhere (but loses the Rage damage bonus if you want to go Barbarian) while Druid 1 (or Magic Initiate)/Arcana Cleric 1 for Shillelagh+Booming Blade lets any other class be resilient enough. If you have Intelligence, then you will have to make do with wizard cantrips. You won't be contributing nearly as much as other builds will be, but you won't be useless and even just Wizard 1 or Magic Initiate gives utility while keeping it as simply the PC dabbling while being focused on the main class.

If you can't multiclass, then Moon Druid. You can contribute to combat at least twice per short rest, your Wisdom is just a nice bonus that only restricts your daily spell selection (no saving throw or attack spells, leaving things like Goodberry), and the other ability scores are only bonuses. Just like any build, having a terrible Con is dangerous, but you have a better chance than other classes with the same.

[Vogonjeltz]

I've had PCs who dumped con. They did just fine.

And I've had buffing characters who didn't really care about their casting stat.

PCs with poor constitution who do fine just got lucky and never hit a really tight scrape.

[Citan]

Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?

Well then...
1) If multiclassing and feats are both forbidden, then Cleric and Wizard are probably the best. Between Domains/School choices and spell selection, while having a good Intelligence/Wisdom would be better, it can still work with average statistics.

2) If feats are allowed, Fighter obviously, because he can stack several feats to shape it as you wish: charismatic leader? Inspiring Leader, Observant. Bruiser? Charger, Tough, etc. Tactician? Manoeuver Initiate, Mage Slayer, Alert. Wiseman? Magic Initiate: Cleric or Druid, Observant, etc...

3) Feats/multiclass are allowed...
Then anything works really. This is actually the best imo when you want to builds a character from the concept: first define your concept, then determine your stats, then see what fits into it. Most ability score combinations will still allow you to take at least 2 classes, one caster and one non-caster, so you can usually achieve 90% of any concept you may have.

[Asmotherion]

The safest bet would be Moon Druid. You can be an excelent Tank wile Animal Shaped, and also cast buff and healing spells.

More or less any Buffer-Focused character can play his role well without crazy Ability Scores, but the Druid can also deal damage and take damage for the party.

As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.

[Addaran]

As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.

Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.

[RickAllison]

Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.

Sun Soul could do a little better (at least it can stay far away), but you are right on that. Paladin would be similarly hard.

[mgshamster]

PCs with poor constitution who do fine just got lucky and never hit a really tight scrape.

This is a very swingy edition. *Every* character that does fine is one who just gets lucky.

[Citan]

The safest bet would be Moon Druid. You can be an excelent Tank wile Animal Shaped, and also cast buff and healing spells.

More or less any Buffer-Focused character can play his role well without crazy Ability Scores, but the Druid can also deal damage and take damage for the party.

As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.

Honestly, I had a NPC Moon Druid, level 3, fight a PC Monk 1 / Cleric 1, and he got totally wasted.
Granted, the NPC didn't want to fight in the first place, so he didn't go on the offensive as he could: he cast Hold Person and succeed for a turn but didn't take advantage of it.
With that said, his Wild Shape was near useless (had only one use left): he transformed into a Brown Bear, supposedly the best "ratio" creature for AC/HP. My player launched a successful Inflict Wounds and rolled near max (26/30 damage). Druid hit only one of his Multiattack, and on next turn player made one strong attack, putting Druid out of Shape, then finishing him off with a critical (:facepalm:).

So, granted, I was out of luck (NPC missed most of his actions) while my player was on fire (+1 Perception mod but proficient, rolled >20 each time the Druid tried to hide after going into spider form and putting himself outside of view... Then succeeded on most attacks).

And I certainly did not take the best course of action (retrospectively, the NPC should just have bumped the player unconscious while he Held him since he was sure to hit&critical, then tie him up and take a time to wonder what to do next... Instead of just trying to persuade him to calm down XD).

But still, as far as direct confrontation go, I really didn't feel the supposed "tankiness" of Moon Druid wild shaped as CR 1 creature. Brown Bear lasted exactly one round, on 1 vs 1. XD
Lesson of the day: when luck really is not on your side, there is little you can do about it.

Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.

Well, the thing is, unless you really build it in such a way because you want a weak character, in which case the problem lies not in class but in character concept, the Monk would actually fare pretty well.
Because even with poor stats, you would probably have at least a good score in DEX and an average WIS, putting your AC in the 13-15 range which is not good, but not ugly either.
Before you have a chance to bump your DEX/WIS, you could either...
- Start as Variant Human and take Defensive Duelist (better defense as a reaction) or Magic Initiate: Sorcerer/Wizard (Mage Armor), depending on your starting DEX.
- Multiclass into Fighter and forego your Unarmored and bonus action Martial Arts for some time to wield medium armor (by far the worst solution since you lose both bonus action attack and Unarmored but still better than dying and supposedly you have better AC like this than unarmored, especially since you could wield a shield).
- Mainly use ranged attacks (daggers) when you have no chance of doing 1 to 1 fight (second worst solution because again, you lose bonus action attack, but at least you retain everything else)
- Or go as is and use your Ki solely on Dodge bonus action in critical times.

Sun Soul Monk would have very little problem with low AC because he can use his Ki to make 2 bonus action attacks.
Long Death Monk could mitigate his low AC with THP every few rounds.
4 Elements Monk could mitigate low AC by extending his reach (although it makes fire damage).
Shadow Monk could mitigate his low AC by casting Darkness on a pendant/ring before he wears it (provided he has darkvision obviously).

And as Monk progresses, he gains powerful no-resource defensive features and more Ki to fuel Dodge/Dash/Disengage bonus action. So past the 4-5 first levels, he would be fine most of the time.

[Addaran]

Well, the thing is, unless you really build it in such a way because you want a weak character, in which case the problem lies not in class but in character concept, the Monk would actually fare pretty well.
Because even with poor stats, you would probably have at least a good score in DEX and an average WIS, putting your AC in the 13-15 range which is not good, but not ugly either.
Before you have a chance to bump your DEX/WIS, you could either...
- Start as Variant Human and take Defensive Duelist (better defense as a reaction) or Magic Initiate: Sorcerer/Wizard (Mage Armor), depending on your starting DEX.
- Multiclass into Fighter and forego your Unarmored and bonus action Martial Arts for some time to wield medium armor (by far the worst solution since you lose both bonus action attack and Unarmored but still better than dying and supposedly you have better AC like this than unarmored, especially since you could wield a shield).
- Mainly use ranged attacks (daggers) when you have no chance of doing 1 to 1 fight (second worst solution because again, you lose bonus action attack, but at least you retain everything else)
- Or go as is and use your Ki solely on Dodge bonus action in critical times.

Sun Soul Monk would have very little problem with low AC because he can use his Ki to make 2 bonus action attacks.
Long Death Monk could mitigate his low AC with THP every few rounds.
4 Elements Monk could mitigate low AC by extending his reach (although it makes fire damage).
Shadow Monk could mitigate his low AC by casting Darkness on a pendant/ring before he wears it (provided he has darkvision obviously).

And as Monk progresses, he gains powerful no-resource defensive features and more Ki to fuel Dodge/Dash/Disengage bonus action. So past the 4-5 first levels, he would be fine most of the time.

That's the point on the thread though, the OP's players might go for a charismatic intelligent monk from what he seems to imply. In which case, monk is probably the worst class possible. 13-15 really isn't that awesome, with the same stats, a dragon sorcerer or someone with mage armor with already have that, with the same stats.


Regarding shadow monk, darkvision won't work, since it's magical darkness. You need warlock levels for devil's sight or other kind of senses.

[Citan]

That's the point on the thread though, the OP's players might go for a charismatic intelligent monk from what he seems to imply. In which case, monk is probably the worst class possible. 13-15 really isn't that awesome, with the same stats, a dragon sorcerer or someone with mage armor with already have that, with the same stats.


Regarding shadow monk, darkvision won't work, since it's magical darkness. You need warlock levels for devil's sight or other kind of senses.

Is it though?
Sure, it will not work great especially on the few first levels, but even if you have to sacrifice your Ki to focus on defense, by level 14 you get Evasion for DEX saves and proficiency in all saves. Only a Paladin decently built could trump that. ;)
And as I said, as long as feats are a thing, there are several ways to mitigate the main problem which is AC while keeping efficient in your everyday thing (which is attacking).

On the contrary, a Sorcerer will have to choose between similar AC but good CHA, or better AC but average CHA. Which means either crappy DC or using his Sorcery points for Heightened.

So as you see, in both cases, you have at the same time an "ability problem" and built-in solutions to deal with it. ;)

Good note about Shadow, forgot about the limitation of natural darkvision.