When did the Saphire Guard learn about the Crimson Mantle?

[nethar]

Been a long time reader and recently decided to reread the whole comic including the prequel books.
When reaching the Trial in Azur City and the Crayon Exposition I notice something that puzzles me.

Soon and Lirian learned about the Rift 66 years before the story takes place. The Dark One learned about the same Rift (Lirian's) when 65 years before the story begins and creates the Crimson Mantle granting knowledge of that Rift to the wearer after that.
Redcloak dons the Mantle when his village is slaughtered 34 years before the story by the Saphir Guard.

My question is given that the Mantle only grants knowledge of Lirian's Gate, and Soon being the only one who kept to the "No intervining.. No just visting..." part (Lirian and Dorukan kept up their relationship while Serini and Draketooth kept in touch for the betting pool) when and how did the Saphire Guard learn about the Mantle and the thread it poses to Lirian's gate?

Is the question answered somewhere in bonus material? (I don't own print versions of Paladin Blues and War and XP's)

[Keltest]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.

[nethar]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.

While they apparently have no idea that the Mantle is a powerful artefact Miko clearly recognised the Goblin in a Red Cloak as a known thread. But given that this was after the distruction of Lirian's gate and the Trial this might only be her recognising Redcloak from the Orders discription at the trial.

Thanks for that fast answer.

[Jasdoif]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.

To be more specific:

It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

[nethar]

Thats all my questions answered, Thank you folks

[B. Dandelion]

Thats all my questions answered, Thank you folks

Hang on a second, OP, I'm not sure it was.

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins.

Nothing in the Giant's quote that Jasdoif posted validates any of this! The Giant touches on the second part of the assertion, that the paladins hadn't known the Crimson Mantle was an actual artifact. But there's zip about a prophecy. I own all the physical books and if there's a bonus strip or commentary that touches on a goblin-related prophecy of doom, it's news to me. Maybe it's part of the updated commentary in the new PDFs I've been too poor to buy yet, but I've been reading rumors to this effect for years and sort of doubt that they were retroactively verified only recently.

That said, I'm not sure they needed a prophecy. We saw the Order of the Scribble go up against the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his army as part of the crayon flashbacks in Start of Darkness. Then in the strip itself Redcloak says Kraagor killed thousands of goblins. Having that many goblins following the high priest of their evil god in order to seize a rift is a pretty good starting point for Soon to be able to work it out that the Dark One and his followers are an ongoing potential threat to reality. That the goblins only knew about one of the rifts is maybe something he didn't figure out, but them being a threat to one rift is certainly enough to presume they are a threat to the others as well.

We might learn more about this as we learn more about the Order of the Scribble.

[Kish]

I'm not aware of any such prophecy, and I'm pretty sure I've read all the print-only content except for the calendars at this point.

[Lacuna Caster]

To be more specific:

Remind me how long Shojo was on the throne, again? It seems rather likely that he at minimum knew about these crusades, even if he wasn't directly responsible for issuing the orders.

[Jasdoif]

Remind me how long Shojo was on the throne, again?

About 47 years.

[Lacuna Caster]

Cripes. That's a minimum of a 17-year overlap. He'd have to have been complicit, then.

[NerdyKris]

In stopping goblins who were actively trying to unleash a world destroying monster.

Just because some of the paladins crossed the line doesn't mean the entire mission was wrong or that Shojo is directly responsible for war crimes. Like Rich said elsewhere, we don't see how many paladins fell due to that battle, and we certainly don't see which ones are court martialed and jailed upon returning to Azure City for their actions.

[Kish]

Azure City was a nation dedicated to all that was good and holy...but in many ways failed to live up to its ideals.

[...]

Most damning, though, is a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods.

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

[Bavarian itP]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

We have only Belkar's word that he was chaotic good, haven't we? ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html )
Shojo himself only claims to be non-lawful. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html )

On the other hand, Miko ignored the "bring them back alive" orders easily enough, so maybe other paladins were a bit overzealous too (not as much as Miko, obviously).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

Is it just me, or is the war and calamity that befell Azure City over the course of the OotS plotline actually, in some twisted way, ultimately a good thing for the beleaguered city-state? As in purifying the more questionable facets of their society in the process?

Sure, at present, there have been tens of thousands of casualties and the survivors are a refugee nation hiding out in some former elven fortifications, arguably still without a true permanent home. But at the same time, their ordeal has rid them of their speciesist and genocidal former leadership along with much of their originally rather corrupt and backstabbing aristocratic class. It seems to me that, whatever form the Azurites take as a nation as an outcome of the OotS story (whether reclaiming Azure City or moving on to a new homeland), they will emerge a more truly Good-aligned nation for it all.

[B. Dandelion]

Like Rich said elsewhere, we don't see how many paladins fell due to that battle,

He did say that.

and we certainly don't see which ones are court martialed and jailed upon returning to Azure City for their actions.

He pretty much implied the opposite of that happening, however.

Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

[Lacuna Caster]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

No, I'm increasingly of a similar opinion.

On the other hand, Miko ignored the "bring them back alive" orders easily enough, so maybe other paladins were a bit overzealous too (not as much as Miko, obviously).

I think one of the paladins on the scene mentioned 'leave no survivors', which suggests that the slaughter was a deliberate plan, not just a few random mistakes by certain individuals. I may be misquoting though(?)

I broadly agree that Miko may not have been oh-so-atypical, but I suspect 'bring em back alive' was a retcon. (She also had the Order framed by the LG, immediately stopped when smiting didn't work, and then brought everyone- including Belkar- back alive. For all her flaws, we never see her kill toddlers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.)

[factotum]

I think one of the paladins on the scene mentioned 'leave no survivors', which suggests that the slaughter was a deliberate plan, not just a few random mistakes by certain individuals.

That paladin could have been saying that in the belief that it would encourage the villagers to reveal where the Bearer was hiding, and the others then took it and ran with it. We can't judge what orders they were given back at base from that statement.

[Lacuna Caster]

That paladin could have been saying that in the belief that it would encourage the villagers to reveal where the Bearer was hiding, and the others then took it and ran with it. We can't judge what orders they were given back at base from that statement.

No, I just checked SoD. The exact words are "Exterminate the rest and let us be done here", coming from what appears to be the leader of the expedition after the Bearer had already been killed. Nobody appears to object, which suggests either a surprisingly large contingent of the Guard went AWOL sans orders from their commander, or this was part of their intended plan.

If Kish's quote is accurate, "a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods" suggests that even the 12 were on-board with this. Is Shojo really the only one out of the loop?

[littlebum2002]

Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.

[Keltest]

Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.

Youre forgetting Shojo's father.

[littlebum2002]

Youre forgetting Shojo's father.

It's in my calculations. Here I'll make it clearer:


Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.
All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years?

So We'll say Soon handed over control of the city to Shoj's father about 56 years before the comic started. In that panel Shojo looks about 5.

And if Shojo took control of the city 47 years before the start of the comic, then his father only ruled for 9 years before Shojo took over, making him about 14 when he started ruling, making him about 61 now.

He certainly looks MUCH older than that.



Either

A) Shojo was 61 when he died, an just looked to be in his 80's due to unhealthy living,

C) Shojo was a REALLY small teenager when his father became ruler, and was in his 70's when he died, or

C) The Order of the Scribble found the rifts, took control of them, made gates, Soon founded an entire city, ran it, then got old and handed control of it over to Shojo's father in a matter of a few years, making Shojo in his late 60's when he died.

[Jasdoif]

Soon founded an entire city

Azure City predated Soon.

[martianmister]

I'm pretty sure Soon never ruled Azure City.

Azure City predated Soon.

There is a narrative weirdness about Soon's origin story. Apparently he's from, alread existing, Azure City, yet the first time he seen the rifts in Elven Woods.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's not implausible that Soon would go to visit the elven lands on a honeymoon trip- the elves and azurites canonically have good relations. The rift in AC was also the smallest, so it's possible it opened latest.


If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?

[Random Poster]

If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?

Well, Miko certainly believed that she received direct communication from the gods. That worked out really well for everyone.

Also, as I understand it, the gods (not just the 12 southern gods, but ALL gods except the Dark One) had long ago agreed to a strict NDA regarding the rifts (and by extension, the gates and the people guarding them), so they couldn't have warned the paladins about Shojo, even if his actions had otherwise warranted a divine intervention.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, Miko certainly believed that she received direct communication from the gods. That worked out really well for everyone.

That actually seems to be surprisingly common in Azure City- even O'Chul essentially resorts to 'this must be what the Gods want' when he's captured and tortured- but more generally I have to wonder why they wouldn't chat with middle-management on occasion. (I mean, we know that Hel communicated directly with her high priest.) As the angry GM would put it:

"If you think about it from the god’s perspective, it’s kind of weird to let someone that valuable slip away from you. The whole “well, you did one evil thing too many so I took away your spells” is really a dumb management technique. Hell, when I f$&% up at work, I get written up before I get fired. Within reason. If the lawful good paladin of Bahamut gleefully burns down a puppy orphanage, you have to let him go.

But I am a big fan of using omens, dreams, visions, and ultimately even divine agents and other members of the clergy to stop a character from falling too far out of favor. It actually makes divine characters MORE interesting in my world because divine upper management wants to work with them. Clerics aren’t just waiting around for the hammer of divine judgment to fall."

Also, as I understand it, the gods (not just the 12 southern gods, but ALL gods except the Dark One) had long ago agreed to a strict NDA regarding the rifts (and by extension, the gates and the people guarding them), so they couldn't have warned the paladins about Shojo, even if his actions had otherwise warranted a divine intervention.

Huh? The paladins were the people guarding the Gates, and perfectly aware of the gates and rifts. None of which is relevant to Shojo's antics.

[Keltest]

That actually seems to be surprisingly common in Azure City- even O'Chul essentially resorts to 'this must be what the Gods want' when he's captured and tortured- but more generally I have to wonder why they wouldn't chat with middle-management on occasion. (I mean, we know that Hel communicated directly with her high priest.) As the angry GM would put it:

"If you think about it from the god’s perspective, it’s kind of weird to let someone that valuable slip away from you. The whole “well, you did one evil thing too many so I took away your spells” is really a dumb management technique. Hell, when I f$&% up at work, I get written up before I get fired. Within reason. If the lawful good paladin of Bahamut gleefully burns down a puppy orphanage, you have to let him go.

But I am a big fan of using omens, dreams, visions, and ultimately even divine agents and other members of the clergy to stop a character from falling too far out of favor. It actually makes divine characters MORE interesting in my world because divine upper management wants to work with them. Clerics aren’t just waiting around for the hammer of divine judgment to fall."


Huh? The paladins were the people guarding the Gates, and perfectly aware of the gates and rifts. None of which is relevant to Shojo's antics.

I kind of got the impression that what Hel did was unusual and in part only possible because she has a grand total of one cleric at the time. The stickverse gods are not omnipotent and don't even really appear to have the normal "be in 50 places at once" thing that most D&D gods can do. Thor, for example, probably just has too much going on to bother watching all his clerics to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow, if he were even inclined to.

[Jasdoif]

If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?

Why would they? The Snarl is a threat to their existence, one the Godsmoot could still decide is worth destroying the world and every paladin over; Shojo placing the Gates above the oaths was in line with their interests. Interests they felt important enough to turn twenty four blind eyes towards paladins slaughtering innocents, after all.

[Kish]

Even good gods seem to use a different alignment scale than mortals in the OotS universe. And yes, by that I do mean "a form of good other than that which is actually good." I would be quite surprised to learn that every soi-distant Good god in the recent vote was on the "no" side and even more surprised to learn that all of them were among the very few who mentioned, or even implied, concern for mortal life as a reason for so being.

[Ruck]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

We have only Belkar's word that he was chaotic good, haven't we? ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html )
Shojo himself only claims to be non-lawful. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html )

I'm pretty sure we have Word of Giant on this as well. Shojo's last words (well, second-to-last words) I think speak to why he's Good: "Everything I did, I did for my people." Not for personal gain-- and we don't have any indicators he's lying when he says it. "Good" doesn't mean "Perfect"; we see Shojo use lies and deception and manipulation to do what he does, but everything we actually see him do in the strip is for the purpose of combating an existential threat to both Azure City and the world at large.

Is it just me, or is the war and calamity that befell Azure City over the course of the OotS plotline actually, in some twisted way, ultimately a good thing for the beleaguered city-state? As in purifying the more questionable facets of their society in the process?

I wouldn't say "good" necessarily, but certainly dramatically appropriate, given that it was their extremism toward the goblin race that, in the long run, brought this about.

Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.

No, Soon never ruled Azure City. He created and headed the Sapphire Guard, which was not the same office as the ruler of Azure City until he turned it over to Shojo's father when he was near death. (I forget where I read this, but I think Rich wrote it somewhere, and also it's really the only way to make the timelines make sense.)