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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    To be fair, the perceived 'number of races' can vary wildly depending on where you're from and what time you're talking about. Most of my friends and I don't consider 'Latino' a race, we'd generally lump them together with other white people. Although I also use 'Oriental' semi-frequently because to me 'Asian' means South Asian instead of East Asian. We're all 20-something English people, for the record.
    Not just your friend group. In Europe, people generally don't consider people who hail from other European countries a different race.

    Basically, to be considered a different race in Europe, you have to look so different that others could not achieve that look with hair dye and a suntan.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Not just your friend group. In Europe, people generally don't consider people who hail from other European countries a different race.

    Basically, to be considered a different race in Europe, you have to look so different that others could not achieve that look with hair dye and a suntan.
    Yeah, but I was speaking from personal experience and so I was throwing in my personal experience.

    Also, occasionally I'll be in a situation where we're talking about 'Celtic', 'Anglo', 'Norman', and so on as if they're different races, but that's on the assumption that they're different sub groups of 'white'. In my experience you might consider someone to be in a different racial grouping white still being the same race.

    Oh, and some of us would resent your implication that we're part of Europe. I'm not sure why, We're sandwiched between two bits of it (France and Ireland), both of which are JUST OVER THERE, YOU CAN BASICALLY REACH OUT AND TOUCH IT.

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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Not just your friend group. In Europe, people generally don't consider people who hail from other European countries a different race.

    Basically, to be considered a different race in Europe, you have to look so different that others could not achieve that look with hair dye and a suntan.

    I don't know about Europe today, but some old books I've read conflated "race" with "nationality", so they mentioned a "French race", a "Greek race", and even a "Celtic" and "Saxon" races, as well as a "human race".

    It's a nebulous term with shifting meanings.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I don't know about Europe today, but some old books I've read conflated "race" with "nationality", so they mentioned a "French race", a "Greek race", and even a "Celtic" and "Saxon" races, as well as a "human race".

    It's a nebulous term with shifting meanings.
    While most of that thinking is based on spurious nonsense and observation, not actual genetics, there are distinct markers for particular population groups within Europe. Such as broad Northwest European, Southern European and Eastern European groupings.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Dr.Samurai's Avatar

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    I don't think it's quite that nebulous 2D8HP.

    What I learned in school was there are three: caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid. I don't know if that's true or not (not really relevant), but it's what always made me interested in knowing my ancestry.

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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I don't think it's quite that nebulous 2D8HP.

    What I learned in school was there are three: caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid. I don't know if that's true or not (not really relevant), but it's what always made me interested in knowing my ancestry....

    I saw those divisions in some anthropology textbooks from the 1960's as well (sometimes they also added "australoid").

    I said "nebulous", because many newer works reject the division, and older works often used "race" to mean "nationality" (so a "Norman race", a "Saxon race", and a "Celtic race" in the British Isles, whereas modern geneticist say that the populations are virtually indistinguishable, with the exception of more Scandinavian ancestry in parts of Scotland and the old "Danelaw" in England).

    So "race" has meaning, but it changes depending on when the word is used, and who is using it.

    To give an example, someone with a certain skin tone 60 years ago may have been classed as among the "whites" if the were in Cuba, and among the "colored" if they were in South Carolina.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Knaight's Avatar

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I saw those divisions in some anthropology textbooks from the 1960's as well (sometimes they also added "australoid").

    I said "nebulous", because many newer works reject the division, and older works often used "race" to mean "nationality" (so a "Norman race", a "Saxon race", and a "Celtic race" in the British Isles, whereas modern geneticist say that the populations are virtually indistinguishable, with the exception of more Scandinavian ancestry in parts of Scotland and the old "Danelaw" in England).
    It's worth understanding that the 1960's understanding of genetics involved a fairly recent discovery that genetic information was kept primarily in DNA, which hadn't even thoroughly trickled out of biology to other fields yet. 50-57 year old textbooks (and that's assuming they were up to date and that these were college textbooks, as highschools generally lag a decade or three behind and it just gets worse the lower you go down) aren't great sources in information.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Serpentine's Avatar

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    The "three races" thing sounds incredibly outdated to me. Like, 60+ years outdated. Like, maybe was generated by and used to justify certain not-good ideologies outdated.

    It's possibly also worth mentioning that recent thought has that races don't really exist in any meaningful way. There is more genetic variation within a race than there is between one race and another. They are entirely arbitrary and artificial delineations (though it might be worth noting that, when it comes down to it, the category of "species" is too).

    For example, look at the "race" of "Asian". For me, as an Australian, when I hear "Asian", I think China/Japan/Korea. In the UK, when they hear "Asian" they first think "Indian subcontinent". Looking at those people, they look just as different as, say, Europeans and Africans. And then there's other groups that fall under "Asian": South-east Asian, for example, in Indonesia and their neighbours. Or Tibetans look different again, and Mongolians, and so on. And then the edges blur further: at what point does south-east Asian turn into Polynesian? Islander people are fairly distinct from Maori people who are fairly distinct from Australian Aboriginal people, but they'd probably be lumped in together under "Australasian" or somesuch.

    It's my understanding that ethnicity is the more accepted and useful category nowadays. I mean, that's the word in the thread title and all... The main situation I can see "race" being useful to look at is things like where certain races are at greater or lesser risk of certain ailments or conditions, but even then there's probably a better terminology to use.
    Last edited by Serpentine; 2017-08-15 at 07:57 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: DNA ethnicity test: have you? Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    The "three races" thing sounds incredibly outdated to me. Like, 60+ years outdated. Like, maybe was generated by and used to justify certain not-good ideologies outdated.
    It is, and is at least several decades out of date. You can tell because 'Negroid' would encompass the continent with the most genetic variation. That's not a helpful category anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    For example, look at the "race" of "Asian". For me, as an Australian, when I hear "Asian", I think China/Japan/Korea. In the UK, when they hear "Asian" they first think "Indian subcontinent". Looking at those people, they look just as different as, say, Europeans and Africans. And then there's other groups that fall under "Asian": South-east Asian, for example, in Indonesia and their neighbours. Or Tibetans look different again, and Mongolians, and so on. And then the edges blur further: at what point does south-east Asian turn into Polynesian? Islander people are fairly distinct from Maori people who are fairly distinct from Australian Aboriginal people, but they'd probably be lumped in together under "Australasian" or somesuch.
    Or how Indian isn't a race, really, you have several racial groups filed under that one. Or how different cultures have different races, such as a Chinese person in America being Asian, but might be a Han back home. Or how in certain parts of the world a family can be multiple different races...

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    It's my understanding that ethnicity is the more accepted and useful category nowadays. I mean, that's the word in the thread title and all... The main situation I can see "race" being useful to look at is things like where certain races are at greater or lesser risk of certain ailments or conditions, but even then there's probably a better terminology to use.
    For...Some things. The times I usually hear race getting the most importance is genetic factors in terms of disease or treatment. But even then, race is a horrible predictor of if someone will have a gene or not. Caucasians are more likely to have the gene for cystic fibrosis and lactose tolerance, but you'll find plenty who lack both genes. If they happened to have a non-Caucasian ancestor, well then it sorta stops working.
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