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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Noted. Though I reiterate my prediction that this encounter will resolve itself without the giantess dying, most likely by diplomacy (and not trickery). She will then quite possibly show the Mechane a way out to where they want to go that allows them to bypass the remaining giants.
    While it would delight me if it would, I doubt diplomacy will work here. That sexist society she's from provides two powerful aggravating factors:

    1) Success ensures a better standing not just for her but for all other women of her tribe. This is her first, best chance to get sole credit for something going right.

    2) Failure means she'll be scapegoated by the tribal elders. They'll be looking for someone to blame for the failure, and as a successful woman -- already a target in the eyes of the men running things -- they will leap at the chance to save the reputation of the males by loading her with all the blame for the failure. Remember the USS Chesapeake -- somehow a third lieutenant got cashiered for the lost battle, not the dead captain or the surviving higher-ranking officer.

    They'll also use her "failure" as an excuse to say "women can't be fighters" and set back the entire gender as well.

    That's the way the world works. People with political clout use it to vacuum up all the credit for themselves and load the blame onto other people, especially those who are already unpopular. If you're a minority, the only real way out of this is to just be so much better than everyone else that they grudgingly accept you as a peer -- which they will until you make one final mistake. Then they will hastily restore the narrative on your corpse, fanning a trivial error into blame not only for you but for everyone else like you.

    I think the giantess is smart enough to know this. Which means she cannot return to her tribe unless in total victory.

    At this point I don't think even the world ending would change her mind. Assuming they could convince her they weren't simply lying for tactical advantage in the first place -- no mean feat -- then she's still fighting for a place in the afterlife and the world to come. The certainty of afterlife and a place in it may be a better "bet" in her eyes than the potential destruction of everything, gods included, at the hands of the Snarl.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-04-07 at 09:55 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Your fifth paragraph (which I agree with) contradicts the rest of your post (which I, correspondingly, don't). The only way to win the game is not to play. As long as she implicitly or explicitly accepts that the sexist elders have the right to decide her social status, she'll get less than she's earned by any objective measurement. "Wow, I guess if she can do that much more than a man could, women really are the equal of men" doesn't actually happen. At absolute best, her success would "prove" that she's an anomaly and maybe deserves a little more than the other women in her tribe, who are only women.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Your fifth paragraph (which I agree with) contradicts the rest of your post (which I, correspondingly, don't). The only way to win the game is not to play. As long as she implicitly or explicitly accepts that the sexist elders have the right to decide her social status, she'll get less than she's earned by any objective measurement.
    So long as she remains a part of the tribe and its hierarchy, she has no choice but to play by those rules and accept both credit and blame from the tribal elders. "Not to play" means either leading a revolt and taking control of the tribe herself, or leaving the tribe and living in exile a la Drizzt Do'Urden.

    It doesn't look to me like she is interested in either route. She appears to be going for the Tuskegee Airman/Glory strategy of demonstrating loyalty and courage in the hope of elevating her sisters.

    Will it work?

    Regrettably, we're probably never going to find out, because she's almost certain not to survive this encounter. And even if she did, I doubt Rich will burn many panels following up on that potential story.

    ...

    Maybe he could do it as a kickstarter reward if he ever decides to hold another one?

    ETA: When it comes to society, "not to play" is not a choice. You can't win, can't break even, and you can't quit the game. You can either live on an island by yourself (I, personally, do not so choose) or you can move to another society and play the game by rules not (typically) more enlightened than your own, and in which you have not been trained to play from birth.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-04-07 at 10:28 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    People tell me that I can't resolve arguments by drawing a sword or shooting the person in the face, even if he agrees to it.

    Who made that rule?
    Mostly lawful good Paladin types...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    You're ignoring a whole lot of choices that aren't either "accept that sexist asterisks run things and walk away" or "accept that sexist asterisks run things and try to convince them that I'm special."

    But...I am afraid I cannot elaborate here.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    While it would delight me if it would, I doubt diplomacy will work here. That sexist society she's from provides two powerful aggravating factors:

    1) Success ensures a better standing not just for her but for all other women of her tribe. This is her first, best chance to get sole credit for something going right.

    2) Failure means she'll be scapegoated by the tribal elders. They'll be looking for someone to blame for the failure, and as a successful woman -- already a target in the eyes of the men running things -- they will leap at the chance to save the reputation of the males by loading her with all the blame for the failure. Remember the USS Chesapeake -- somehow a third lieutenant got cashiered for the lost battle, not the dead captain or the surviving higher-ranking officer.

    They'll also use her "failure" as an excuse to say "women can't be fighters" and set back the entire gender as well.

    That's the way the world works. People with political clout use it to vacuum up all the credit for themselves and load the blame onto other people, especially those who are already unpopular. If you're a minority, the only real way out of this is to just be so much better than everyone else that they grudgingly accept you as a peer -- which they will until you make one final mistake. Then they will hastily restore the narrative on your corpse, fanning a trivial error into blame not only for you but for everyone else like you.

    I think the giantess is smart enough to know this. Which means she cannot return to her tribe unless in total victory.

    At this point I don't think even the world ending would change her mind. Assuming they could convince her they weren't simply lying for tactical advantage in the first place -- no mean feat -- then she's still fighting for a place in the afterlife and the world to come. The certainty of afterlife and a place in it may be a better "bet" in her eyes than the potential destruction of everything, gods included, at the hands of the Snarl.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    I think you failed to consider other options, like "success means she'll be scapegoated for the death of her comrades, and her victory will be dismissed as too costly, probably cowardly. If they died and she lived, she was probably not honorable. Maybe she hid back? Maybe she backstabbed him? The imagination of oppressors is fertile to discredit opponents.

    Because if you are "so much better than everyone else", accepting you as a peer is no more probable than accepting you as a threat to the established order.

    You also seem to assume she will return to her tribe. And seem to assume she knows what is at stakes. But it was suggested to us that she does not, in fact, know the world is threatened with destruction. Maybe she's not ready to let go of this world, yet? Maybe, if she knew, she would rather be an outcast than to participate?

    This giantess doesn't have a name yet, but she does have a personality and a limited background. All should know that the probability of a character dying decreases with the more we learn on them. Tack on top of that that the character is a vehicle for a progressive message valued by the author (anti-patriarchism, female assertiveness), to have a (likely male) character kill the most blatant anti-patriarchal female character, over what is quite possibly a misunderstanding (or, at the very least, due to manipulation), does not strike me as particularly likely.

    I'm not saying I *want* them to talk it out, but that I *expect* them to. Killing her off at this point would seem contrary to the author's ethics, on top of making the whole sub-plot of frost giants being an oppressive patriarchy a distraction at best, a waste of time at worst.

    The giantess rebelling against the patriarchy to aid the crew of the mechane to escape would seem the logical conclusion to the elements presented to us so far.

    The only loose ends I'm not accounting for are the stranded heroes, I do not have any strong ideas about how their reunion will occur.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    I do think there's a fair chance that a single joke Rich made last page is being overthought--well, I think it's certain that the joke is being overthought, but specifically that she may simply be defeated and killed like any number of other at-least-marginally-sympathetic antagonists the Order has mowed down since the comic began. The goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan, who readers of Start of Darkness know were draftees who were only there because Xykon threatened them, for starters.

    Edited: Actually, I think I convinced myself what I was saying was tosh as I was saying it. I can't think of any examples of even marginally sympathetic antagonists who the Order killed. The (unnamed) bandits in Wooden Forest, Durkon took over and disbanded, and Miko (not the Order) killed even their two awful leaders. The orcs on the island, they ultimately converted to Giggles and dealt with as allies. The goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan were a retcon. Okay, I agree, I'll be surprised if Roy kills her. (Still room for one of the explicitly-Neutral-not-Good pirates to do so, though.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2017-04-07 at 11:38 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #248

    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    One thing to keep in mind is that Frosty the Giantess may be the highest leveled member of the tribe by now. Winning through diplomacy may involve pointing this out and suggesting she make herself queen.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that Frosty the Giantess may be the highest leveled member of the tribe by now. Winning through diplomacy may involve pointing this out and suggesting she make herself queen.
    Possible, but that would likely involve a whole arc dedicated to the process. I'm hoping not. I'm assuming that overthrowing a patriarchy takes more than defeating the leader in single combat. Though to your credit, in 1961, she does say that they "are the strongest of (their) clan", so I guess she quite possible is the strongest one now. Nations usually aren't led by whoever has the most levels, but... this is D&D, so maybe here they do.

    For the goblins, they were conscripted as a group, which is not the same effect as individuals speaking out. Goblins with actual personalities are few and sparse. There's Redcloak, who is still alive after all this time, and did enough evil to possibly compensate for his sympatheticness. Jyrinx, who really barely has a personality, and mostly is just there to do unnamed things offscreen. Technically a hobgoblin, too. There's that kid who posed as wanted to be good, until he backstabbed the party. And... there's Redcloak's family in SoD, whose death by the main evil characters mostly served to fuel the story.

    Would Roy be winning, he'd probably just kill her. But that's probably part of why he can't be winning, because her winning offers the most plausible non-lethal end, while furthering the "women as badasses" concept. If she lost, the conclusion would simply be "sure, she was holding back, but in the end she still wasn't strong enough anyways".

    Sure she only mentions the patriarchy in 1968, maybe it's being overthought. But it took 3 panels for her to do so, plus the panel where she gets Haley's moral support. So half of 1968 is about saying that frost giant society is bad, and one panel of 1969 is there to tell us that she has no idea why she's fighting there, and thus may not support it if she knew. Indeed, she expresses her intent to keep on living, which stands against Thrym's plans.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I can't think of any examples of even marginally sympathetic antagonists who the Order killed.
    The YA black dragon, maybe? He was polite to polymorphed!V before V started trying to mind control him.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mr-mercer View Post
    I do hope that the situation ends with combat (because as I've said many a time before, I like it when people hit other people with big swords) but I'm willing to accept a peaceful option as well and that does seem pretty likely. I'll be content with any of the options currently on the table, really.
    I suspect it will end with combat, but there are potentially options out - if the giants haven't been informed that they are fighting to get the world they're on destroyed and they take the information provided as accurate I could see them giving up this fight, and probably their loyalty to their demigod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The YA black dragon, maybe? He was polite to polymorphed!V before V started trying to mind control him.

    GW
    There was also one of the kobolds, who joined with the LG specifically to take revenge on Belkar.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The YA black dragon, maybe? He was polite to polymorphed!V before V started trying to mind control him.

    GW
    On that note, the ABD (and relatives).

    However, I'm struggling to think of anyone who can be considered an antagonist at all (rather than a mook) who the Order actually killed themselves beyond the dragons. Thog, maybe, but we don't know for sure if hes dead. Z was killed by the vampire, not Durkon. Kabuto was killed by V, I guess. Crystal was killed by Haley twice, so I suppose she counts.

    The order has an incredibly poor track record dealing with their antagonists, come to think of it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    There was also one of the kobolds, who joined with the LG specifically to take revenge on Belkar.
    I wouldn't call revenge a sympathetic characterisation, marginal or otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    On that note, the ABD (and relatives).
    ABD wasn't really sympathetic - not after planning to eat V's children just to make V suffer. She was just V, on a smaller scale.

    The relatives didn't get any characterisation at all.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-04-07 at 12:33 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BannedInSchool View Post
    If duelling is also the basic justice system, then you could also just let people know you or your pro could win a duel so they should just let you get away with whatever crime you're committing against them. Or for anything not covered by the real justice system.
    Dueling was considered highly civilized back in the day when gov'ts and courts were so weak that lethal open clan warfare was always a real threat. Thus anything to constrain and control the violence was a plus, and arguably made you a more civilized man.

    But in the 18th and 19th centuries, duels were no longer so useful in terms of reducing overall violence, so their legitimacy eroded.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I wouldn't call revenge a sympathetic characterisation, marginal or otherwise.
    It's not an unreasonable motivation though, and what little we knew about the character was that they wanted revenge on Belkar and they were generally not on board with what the Linear Guild got up to.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ABD wasn't really sympathetic - not after planning to eat V's children just to make V suffer. She was just V, on a smaller scale.
    Yeah. If the ABD simply ate V slowly and painfully, I could call that a kind of justice, in such a violent universe.

    ABD herself fully deserved being the target of the Familicide spell, although the other victims of Familicide certainly did not.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It's not an unreasonable motivation though, and what little we knew about the character was that they wanted revenge on Belkar and they were generally not on board with what the Linear Guild got up to.
    I didn't say it was unreasonable - I said it was not sympathetic, and I stand by it. All we know is that he seeks revenge, and is willing to associate with evil people to do so. While I can accept it is not unrealistic, it does not make me care for him, and therefore his death is suitably entertaining and amusing, especially since it is one of the few times Belkar had to get clever about how he dispatched an enemy.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't think Giantess has really been shown to be exceptionally sympathetic. Sure, she suffers from a sexist society but so do a lot of other women in strip. I don't see that as being especially sympathetic so much as "adding a marginal amount of depth to an otherwise throwaway character".

    That is something the Giant does. He wants the beings in his comic strip to be more than just targets on a shooting range. And good for him.

    You're ignoring a whole lot of choices that aren't either "accept that sexist asterisks run things and walk away" or "accept that sexist asterisks run things and try to convince them that I'm special."
    Tribal society. There are far fewer options in such a society than in an urban one.

    My understanding is that tribal societies are closely adapted to their surroundings, and their experiences are enforced by a strict set of both commandments and taboos, which have the power of Sacred Tradition. These strictures go to the very core of who they are as a people; it is what separates them from the rest of the world and makes them who they are.

    These practices and traditions are often the result of centuries of experience, and allow the culture to survive in these circumstances. Unfortunately, they don't do well at all when the situation or the circumstances change.

    Urban cultures are much better at change; they are already a melding place for people of many different tribes, and because of that the rulers have to be a bit more open-minded and willing to accept changes than otherwise. Indeed, it isn't infrequent for the inhabitants of cities to be people who were outcast from their home clans for one reason or another.

    All of which is to say that if our Giantess wants alternatives she's going to be better off trying it in the Giant equivalent of Greysky than in her own tribe. Tribes are , by their nature, inherently conservative and resistant to innovations.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Your fifth paragraph (which I agree with) contradicts the rest of your post (which I, correspondingly, don't). The only way to win the game is not to play. As long as she implicitly or explicitly accepts that the sexist elders have the right to decide her social status, she'll get less than she's earned by any objective measurement. "Wow, I guess if she can do that much more than a man could, women really are the equal of men" doesn't actually happen. At absolute best, her success would "prove" that she's an anomaly and maybe deserves a little more than the other women in her tribe, who are only women.
    I do believe in isolated (or maybe not so isolated) fields/areas, movement towards the bolded comment does happen. Science, medicine, some sport/athletics, some buisness-related professions. Even many activities of daily life. It's a far cry from universal or from absolute equality, but huge strides have been made by the exceptional. Normal caveats about faint praise, low bar or long ways to go apply.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Possible, but that would likely involve a whole arc dedicated to the process. I'm hoping not. I'm assuming that overthrowing a patriarchy takes more than defeating the leader in single combat.
    Not happening. V and Haley already took out the Jarl and his guards, along with a good-ish sized chunk of the religious staff. Add in all of the (disproportionately male) giants getting killed along the way (excuse me, Doomsealed) and Frosty is not only going to end up the most powerful person likely left in the tribe, but the tribe will be stressed beyond comprehension. That breeds desperation, and a willingness to change if it offers a shot at survival.

    Said changes won't stick, likely, but they won't all go away either.

    And who says it's going to take an arc? Playgrounders were claiming we were going to spend a large amount of time watching the Anti-Tarquin League in action, and they haven't been seen since the Order left them.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Either Yokyok or the young black dragon would qualify as "at least marginally sympathetic" by my definition.

    However, I wasn't thinking of Belkar and Vaarsuvius as "the Order," which is of course indefensible on a linguistic level. I'll revise it to "none of the Good members of the Order, and especially not Roy."

    (Crystal doesn't qualify, not even slightly. Neither does Thog.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Either Yokyok or the young black dragon would qualify as "at least marginally sympathetic" by my definition.

    However, I wasn't thinking of Belkar and Vaarsuvius as "the Order," which is of course indefensible on a linguistic level. I'll revise it to "none of the Good members of the Order, and especially not Roy."

    (Crystal doesn't qualify, not even slightly. Neither does Thog.)
    It was not my intent to imply either of them were sympathetic, but rather to point out that the Order, as a group or as individuals, has historically not been the ones to actually kill their antagonists, including the unsympathetic ones.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Another thing I just thought is that the expectations we have, set by Hollywood movies, don't work in OOTS world.

    In Hollywood, villains are made into faceless mooks, typically wearing masks that completely cover their faces. They have no loves, no friendships, no struggles. That is why, if we see a stormtrooper having even the slightest inkling of a conscience, that's our clue s/he's going to defect and become a protaganist.

    That's not the real world. Real-world villains have redeeming characteristics , often love their families.

    I think Rich is trying to make his comic a little bit less two dimensional by giving his villains, even the smallest ones, some redeeming or sympathetic elements. To make them more like real people.

    Thing is, I think we see these clues and we take that as a hint that the character is supposed to be a hero or protaganist, which is what it means in Hollywood. I don't think that's what it means in Riches' art -- it just means the character isn't a cardboard cutout.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I can't think of any examples of even marginally sympathetic antagonists who the Order killed.
    If you think about why you consider the giant to be marginally sympathetic, I think you would be able to come up with others. It seems to me that the only thing that differentiates the frost giant from any other enemy (in terms of sympathy) is:
    - She perceives that she is the victim of prejudice (sexism)
    - She is a mere pawn fighting on behalf of a higher power whose motives she doesn't understand.

    It does not seem to me that either of these factors differ from any of the goblins or hobgoblins fighting under Xykon. The comic established that goblins are (or at least perceive themselves to be) the victims of prejudice and they are generally unwittiing pawns in Xykons plans. The only difference is I suppose that there has been few goblins who have received as much individual dialogue as the giant has.

    I would be a little disapointed with a diplomacy based solution simply because I do not think it realistic. Even at the best of times (where there is a channel of open dialogue) people who have a firm position rarely change their mind from mere persuausion. Politics is a real world example, and this forum is an example closer to home. In politics, people who are hired for their ability to persuade try to persuade people to vote for their candidate, but it is widely accepted that very few people who are staunchly republican or democrat will swing, and people are mostly competing for the undecided voters. In this forum, there was a lively debate following the last strip where people argued about the giants comments about sexism - to the best of my knowledge people who were firmly in one camp or the other did not change their mind, despite the best efforts of others (the closest may have benn me and Snails agreeing that we understood each others arguments, but still tended toward our own interpretation of the strip). Both those occassion are far more conducive to people being persuaded than the middle of pitched combat - after all we weren't (and the American politcal parties aren't) at the stage of actual fighting, and we did have a forum where we cold at least set out our arguments. The problem is that once people have reached a firm issue on a particular point. it is very hard to change their mind by persuasion - their arguments are logical to them, and they will construct arguments (which may not actually be logical) to defeat points raised on the other side. If it were so easy to simply persuade people to change their idealogical alliances, we would see it happening all the time, whenever a persuasive person gets the chance to preach at someone. In reality it happens rarely - as most of those who argued for either perspective in the 1068 thread should appreciate.

    Of course in saying all of that, this is a story, and (as we saw in 1068), not one where people always act in a realistic manner given their situation. The comic did make a point of telling us that the giant was not aware that the world would end. So who knows. It would be somewaht unrealistic though, for this giant to go from being actively trying to kill Roy on behalf of her god to helping the order simply becase of a few panels of chat.

  25. - Top - End - #265
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Honestly I just hope the giantess equally dies/gets killed by Roy like every other mook they've fought so far, I don't see why things should go differently for her compared to any other enemy or goblinoid. In fact if she were to "graciously make it *wink wink*" not because of storytelling purpose but solely out of her real-world political critique connections it'd make a new low for the story to me.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    We also need to keep in mind that not only is this a story, it's one grounded in D&D and diplomancers are a thing. Haley could talk someone into believing he was a wallaby in a sentence.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    With her Bluff boosted to epic levels.

    Beyond that, I just want to reemphasize that I'm not thinking about Hollywood at all--I'm thinking of 1068 previous strips of this particular work of Rich's. This may well end with Roy cutting down a character who's shown a trace of a personality that wasn't vile, but if it does, that should be recognized as a thing that's never happened before.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    In reality it happens rarely - as most of those who argued for either perspective in the 1068 thread should appreciate.
    It happens all the time. It's not something that tends to happen all that quickly, and a lot of the time you would have no way of knowing it happened precisely because it's long term and because people tend not to talk it up that much (because who really wants to go into the various ways they used to be horribly wrong?), but it's hardly a strange behavior. On top of that, this isn't just a persuasion case - it's a new information case, where the information is someone trying to kill her, when that someone represents an organization she already has strained ties to.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    We-ell, the problem with duelling is professional duellists.

    How to commit legal murder in a society that allows duelling:
    1) Provoke a duel with the victim.
    2) Hire an assassin as your stand-in in the duel. A dandy versus a professional killer? It's little short of murder.

    Another trick mentioned in Scandinavia was that duellists would stake claim to other people's stuff, and offer to fight duels to settle the ownership.

    These and other reasons are why we settle things through laws and juries these days, rather than hacking each other to bits.

    I personally would like to see more trials by ordeal

    Tongue-in-cheek,

    Brian P.
    What city do you live in that has professional duelists? Where I live, people do things themselves.

    Maybe this is why paladins are the world police.
    I'm a Lawful Good Human Paladin
    Justice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quibbilcious View Post
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    Maybe this is why paladins are the world police.
    You really think the police are lawful good?

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