[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[N. Jolly]

Welcome all to the Spheres of Might open playtest! For the past few weeks, we've been running a backer only playtest and gathering quite a lot of data on this new and exciting system, but now we'd like to open it up to the public to get as many people's thoughts and opinions as possible. There has been a TON of changes from the previous preview, and the new open playtest includes the complete roster of spheres and classes which we will be included in the full release as well as new content such as martial traditions, conversion archetypes so that you can use Spheres of Might with traditional Pathfinder classes, drawbacks to allow you to further customize your experience, and more!

While you can comment on the doc directly, we'd prefer you to make longer comments here or on the Drop Dead Studios forum! We're looking forward to seeing what you have to say, so let us know, and let's get this open playtest rolling!

Champions of the Spheres Archetypes playtest
Champions of the Spheres Prodigy playtest

[Mehangel]

The Open Playtest now includes Legendary Talents and 2 Gish Classes (Sage and Troubadour).

Looking through the Legendary Talents, I have to say that I am largely disappointed with their prerequisites (over half of them have a prerequisite of BAB +5 or higher).

One of the things that made me fall in love with Spheres of Power was that they abandoned the idea that ability X was only available at level Y (You could shapechange, fly, teleport, or even stop time at level 1). Advanced Talents in Spheres of Power were set aside as a world building tool and only the most common game-breaking talents. While it is true that Advanced Talents have caster level prerequisites, they had them only because having Advanced Talent X before level Y would most certainly cause problems. Spheres of Power also allowed me to build characters as I want them at level 1 (maybe level 3 with more complex characters).

Legendary Talents from Spheres of Might however seem to have BAB prerequisites for no other reason than to deny martials from having nice things. Talents which were Legendary were supposed to be made such because they were "unrealistic" or "too wushu" for specific games. That is not to say that I argue against any of the legendary talents from having BAB requirements, I am rather saying that it looks like you could easily just reduce the BAB requirements of each by 5 (BAB +10 would become BAB +5, etc) and it would be fine. I would go as far to say that almost all the talents that had the BAB requirement of +5 could due without having any BAB requirement (and those that do could easily be re-written to scale).

I get frustrated whenever I see people forced to stat-out characters from comics, movies, television series as being level 5 or higher when in all likelihood they were probably level 3, and definitely no higher than level 5. I am tired of the Martial/Caster disparity, and it looks like Legendary Talents are not doing martials any favors. Seriously, why would I want to play a Sphere of Might character (using Legendary Talents) when I could accomplish the same thing with Spheres of Power at lower level (and not need Advanced Talents).

Again there are a number of Legendary Talents that I approve of having a BAB requirement (mostly death effects), but things as simple as shoot arrows into a target to create a makeshift ladder never really needed a BAB requirement of +5 to begin with.

[Ssalarn]

I actually think I agree that we swung high on several prereqs; the design team is discussing numerous legendary talents and lowering or removing their BAB/rank prerequisites, so expect to see several of those lowered or dropped entirely as we complete our team review.

[Dracul3S]

Mehangel wrote it better than I could. I agree with all of that. Spheres of power and of might should have the same level of abilities. As of now not the case! And guess who's weaker again? Not the casters.

[Mehangel]

On a different note, any chance that the next major update to the Spheres of Might Open Playtest include Gish Archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes?

[stack]

On a different note, any chance that the next major update to the Spheres of Might Open Playtest include Gish Archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes?

Most of those are still in the concept phase. I don't think any are playtest ready. Getting the base book complete has been a greater focus.

[calyst]

So using only Drop Dead Studio products plus an Akitonian Blade and Boots of the Cat I have found a build that lets you do weapon+20d6+abit each round at 8th level by taking 2 lethal, and 3 non-lethal damage. Is that a fair and balanced trade off?

[stack]

Care to post the build?

[Mehangel]

Most of those are still in the concept phase. I don't think any are playtest ready. Getting the base book complete has been a greater focus.

That's too bad, I know alot of other playtesters who want to write/stat up characters. Any idea what the next big update might include (Archetypes, Prestige Classes, Player/Builder Guide, etc)?

[calyst]

Conscript fast movement, specialization beserk, freerunner package. Sithier for racial jump bonus. Trasformation and Hybrid feats for move speed. Wall stunt, diving strike, air stunt, swift movement x 2. Remember +4 jump for every 10ft speed above 30ft. At 1 dc from air stunt and x3 from Akitonian Blade. Move action jump, swift action jump from air stunt talent gets over 200ft wich is falling damage cap for diving strike as standard action for +20d6 and because of 100ft base speed doesnt break rule of cant jump more than speed.

[stack]

I had never heard of that item before today. Suppose we may have to cap the diving strike damage. Funny, because I was thinking that one was probably underpowered. The ways skill checks can be broken never cease to amaze.

Of course, you need a 200 ft ceiling with a 100ft wall to pull it off. I'll have to check stacking and a few other things when I get to a computer as well.

[AlephOzone]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

[stack]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

The idea has come up but no work has been done to my knowledge. Might be aomethig that happens eventually, might not.

[Mehangel]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

If I were to hazard a guess, adapting Spheres of Power to 5E will not happen until all the Sphere Handbooks are completed, and will probably be included as part of a Kickstarter campaign for an 'Ultimate Spheres of Might & Power' book.

[AlephOzone]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I guess im gonna try my hand at adapting the sphere systems for 5e for my game with my friends.

[digiman619]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I guess im gonna try my hand at adapting the sphere systems for 5e for my game with my friends.

If you do, post your creations in the Homebrew forum. You're not the first to ask for such a conversion.

[Saffron-sama]

Out of curiosity how does the Blacksmith' Artisan Savant interact with the crafting rules in the Spheres of Power book?
Currently you need to take the Artificery and Improved Artificery feats in order to craft with the Blacksmith class in that rule system is that a feature or a error?

I know I am really late for this question but why was the 1st level bonus 2 talents removed?
The loss of those two talents have hurt many of my early level builds quite badly. Plus many of my higher level build gothurt by it a bit to.

[Hunter Noventa]

Out of curiosity how does the Blacksmith' Artisan Savant interact with the crafting rules in the Spheres of Power book?
Currently you need to take the Artificery and Improved Artificery feats in order to craft with the Blacksmith class in that rule system is that a feature or a error?

I know I am really late for this question but why was the 1st level bonus 2 talents removed?
The loss of those two talents have hurt many of my early level builds quite badly. Plus many of my higher level build gothurt by it a bit to.

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

[Saffron-sama]

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

Ahh, well traditions are going to need to pick up the slack then and become a lot more flexible. I have been having to bug my gm about traditions a lot including make adjustment to some to better fit my character concept. Since most traditions give you usually one talent that does not jive well or help the character.

Such as the scoundrel base sphere for ninjutsu is not very helpful for the more militant ninja clans.

[Hunter Noventa]

Ahh, well traditions are going to need to pick up the slack then and become a lot more flexible. I have been having to bug my gm about traditions a lot including make adjustment to some to better fit my character concept. Since most traditions give you usually one talent that does not jive well or help the character.

Such as the scoundrel base sphere for ninjutsu is not very helpful for the more militant ninja clans.

Oh I agree, you ought to be able to work with your GM to make a Martial Tradition that is fitting. Just like the SoP casting traditions. I'm pretty sure the rules for both encourage GMs to make or adjust them to better fit their world.

I know that an upcoming game where we'll be using this system doesn't have any eastern influences, so the likes of ninjutsu or bushido won't be options, but I know my GM is creative and flexible enough to work with it.

[Ssalarn]

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

This was very much the case. The difference between the way talents impact martial characters and the way talents impact magic users are fairly different, and the two bonus talents created multiple issues related to front-loading and balance, both in general and between classes. The Martial Traditions create a path to achieving most of the same effect, but in a cleaner more balanced fashion that also helps inject some flavor into the game world and gives players and GMs both additional customization options for their games.

[N. Jolly]

Just letting everyone know that the SoM playtest is getting a new update soon.

Some of you have already heard this, but we are planning a massive update to the playtest documents, to come online Monday or Tuesday. Among other things including some expanded content, the update will make two major changes to the rules:

• First, the removal of dedications. They've actually become less important as the mechanics have evolved, and removing them opens up a bit more customization.
• Second, the expansion of the battered condition. Currently the sole property of the berzerker sphere, battered condition inflicted by the berzerker sphere is seeing its usability expanded, and can now be inflicted by other spheres, and has become a much more potent martial tactic.

We're excited to see how these changes (among the other, smaller ones) will affect play. We'll announce them when they go live, but since Paizo Con is this weekend, we'll be waiting until that's over before posting changes. If you'll be at Paizo Con this weekend, we'll be tending a booth and talking to whoever passes by, so come say hi.

Sadly I'm not at Paizocon now, but I will be at Gencon (hopefully), so if any of you are going to that, feel free to bother me.

[Manyasone]

Bah. Unfair. Haven't got my own jet to cross the big wet. I swear, Europe is at a disadvantage in all this

[NomGarret]

I just wonder why every time I fly there's a big update.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I just wonder why every time I fly there's a big update.

Fly more often please. Maybe with enough updates SoM will finally match up to SoP

[NomGarret]

Well I didn't plan on doing so again until September, but for the good of the product I will fly my little heart out.

[Ssalarn]

Just wanted to pop in and note that the update should be officially and completely rolled out at this point, for anyone who hasn't seen/heard.

Links in the OP should be good, but reposting them here just in case:
Sphere 1
Sphere 2
Sphere 3
Class 1
Class 2
CotS classes
Legendary Talents
Additional Rules
Archetypes

[The Blade Wolf]

So. This is going to be a bit of general impressions of Spheres of Might as a whole, as well as how it compares to Spheres of Power. Note that this is a less of a science and more of an art as it comes down to the differences in experience when constructing characters using the different systems. But hopefully, I can make my point come across well.

The point being that Spheres of Might is significantly less satisfying than Spheres of Power. Because Spheres of Might is too concerned about making sure that each of the individual talents is equal to a feat when Spheres of Power has many, many talents that are worth significantly more than a feat.

For example, a level 9 character that I created had Draw Cut, Swift Slice and Slickened Grip from the Duelling Sphere, as well as Read Foe, Unlikely Feint, Master of Misdirection, Hand Slash from the Fencing Sphere. This gave me max ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive, as well as allowing me the ability to Feint effectively against non-human enemies. More importantly, however, it gave me a very solid routine off ‘Ready an action to attack an enemy with my sheathed weapon. Draw>Free Action Feint>Success = Swift Action Attack>Fatal-Thrust Feinted Enemy>Success = Free Disarm vs the target with -12? to CMD>Success = Attack for AoO’ in order to hit an enemy 3 times and disarm them for a standard action. Which is a pretty damn good routine.

Except, what if they were immune to bleed? Well, then I won’t be able to do both of the extra attacks, only one of them. What if they don’t have a weapon to disarm at all? Well, I don’t have an exploit to use so I guess I just Fatal-Strike them. What if I failed the Feint? Well, then I won’t get either of the extra attacks or the Fatal-Thrust. So all those talents are rendered useless, and I needed to be an expert participator, or an adept with several ‘Extra combat Talent’ feats in order to be able to get that routine at that level. Not to mention it’s only useful against one target, not so great against multiple targets at once.

What if I was using Spheres of Power, however? Well, let’s say I wanted to be a Mageknight focused on the Conjuration Sphere. Lingering Companion & Greater Summoning lets me summon by Companion for the entire day for the simple cost of 2 spell points. Boon Companion has me summoning a Companion at the same level as a full-caster would, and my 3 remaining talents is pretty flexible. Maybe I wanted a ranged supporter to my melee combat? Well, I could go Battle Creature twice and Quick Companion in order to make them pretty much as good at range as a normal fighter would, or maybe it could go the route of Magical Companion instead, and specialize in the Destruction Sphere, if I’m reading it right, it’ll only have 2 less talent than I do at that stage. Maybe I want a battle-buddy or a big beefy dude to draw enemy fire from me or my casters? Altered Size x2 and Armored Companion or Fortified Companion helps make it big and tough, whilst Powerful Companion can help increase its strength and damage...

And that’s just one sphere, for a low caster who is just as good at fighting as Fighter would be, maybe even better thanks to Stalwart and Resist Magic making the much better against deliberating effects, whilst Mystic Combat gives them much greater out of combat options. Spheres of Might spent a lot of talents on a pretty specific combination that works great when it actually works out, but there are so many ways to shut it down without even trying. Mindless Undead or Constructs and boom, all his talents are basically wasted. The Mage Knight? There likely isn’t any situation where an extra guy isn’t useful. The only way to stop it is to kill it or dismiss it, and the later just means he has to resummon it later. Killing it is easier than killing a player, but if the Mage Knight put that much focus on it, he’s not going to let his summon die easily either.

Spheres of Might is designed so each talent and sphere are equal to a feat... but that thinking is quite frankly, holding it back significantly, as their Spheres of Power talents, and especially the individual Spheres are worth SO much more than a single feat.

Spheres of Might gets... the ability to inflict piddling bleed damage, and the ability to disarm someone who is bleeding without provoking an AoO. Spheres of Power gets the ability to summon a companion who is as strong as the fighter at that stage. Spheres of Might gets... the ability to expand their martial focus (which takes a full minute to regain) in order to add +1 to their damage for one attack. Spheres of Power gets the ability to give their party the ability to see in the dark, or their fighter extra natural attacks, or a +10 bonus to disguise! Spheres of Might gets.... The ability to Dual-Wield. Spheres of Power gets the ability to create a fricking wall that the enemy has to get past, as well as the ability to give allies a +1 Deflection Bonus to AC for an entire hour.

In summary: If Dead Drop Studios wants Spheres of Might to able to be equal to Spheres of Power in how easy it is to craft a character to cast/fight in the way that you want them to cast/fight without getting punished? They need to make the base Spheres (most, anyway), a lot more powerful, and to make the individual talents significantly stronger as well. It’ll help make the Drawbacks actually worth a single talent for one thing...

Melee already sucks compared to Magic in Pathfinder... please don’t make it even worse by releasing a Spheres of Might that is completely underwhelming compared to Spheres of Power.

[Manyasone]

I agree with most of what you say, however these are my 2 euros.
The problem is that third edition turned the combat system around by, instead of the casters hiding behind the martials, the martials are hiding behind the casters or better yet, 'Stay at home! Don't get in the way. I'm tired of raising your useless meat... ' anyways. This became so ingrained that when you design stuff for martials that is too powerful, a lot of whiners will raise their voice saying it's not right that the fighters are better at fighting than the wizards. Because reasons... But when whiners keep whining they will be heard and stuff will be adjusted. I like what the team is doing so far with SoM. But i would like it even more if our martials could become on par with guys like Herakles, Leonidas, Achilles, Lancelot, Slaine, Zhao Yun, Ryu Hayabusha.. You get my drift

[Mehangel]

Something I have noticed is that Spheres of Might does little to remove the Caster/Martial disparity. More specifically, in regards to Legendary Talents it looks like individual spheremartial abilities do not receive support unless A) they make it so that magic does it more effectively, or B) lock it behind unnecessary prerequisites to keep it that way. The most keen example of this is Sever Limb.

Sever Limb is locked behind a BAB prerequisite of +11. Why? Because magic cannot restore a lost limb until 10th level in Spheres of Power. Now as brought up by other playtesters, it is also possible that it has this prerequisite to keep GM's from using this ability on players before they can afford to have their wounds restored. This I feel is a cop-out; Just remove the BAB prerequisite, and add a sidebar telling GM's that NPC's of CR 9 or lower should not have Sever Limb. Infact, i would go as far as to say, that NPC's in general should NOT have access to Legendary Talents (there are ofcourse exceptions, but it should be the PC's running the show, not the NPC's).

Ofcourse, all of this is conversed at length on the DDS website forums; But I felt that this rant was relevant to the current conversation.