[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Ssalarn]

Oh hey, the Toolsmith ability of the Blacksmith still does literally nothing because it increases the competence bonus granted by Masterwork tools which do not and have not ever granted a competence bonus. I feel like this may be a byproduct of the book fetisihizing competence bonuses like DSP does to insight bonuses. For the record, they grant a circumstance bonus.

Probably got caught in a sweep that was being done to normalize bonus types. We use set bonus types to limit stacking and preserve the math framework of the game and system; in SoM competence represents the bonus type we felt was the best fit for martial, well, competence, as well as preventing those abilities from excessively stacking with other options and further distorting the math of the skill system since it gets used heavily in our talents. Anyways, I'll add that to the list so it works as intended.

[Aipaca]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Been looking over the Conscript a lot, and I feel like the Sphere Specialisations are pretty weak for the ~7 feats you are giving up to get them. Would it be too late to make Sphere Spec. worth 2 points? I realise that you guys have done a lot of playtesting with everything, but I can't for the life of me work out how it's worth it, especially considering as far as I can tell by RAW the answer to my next question is no.

For the "Conscript level+1=BAB for your specialised sphere" ability, does that stack with BAB you get from other classes? I understand that you are trying to not replicate the dipping heaven that is the Incanter, but it's definitely a bum deal if it doesn't stack.

Finally, does the aforementioned "Conscript level+1=BAB" ability include for attack actions associated with a Sphere, eg. a Deadly Shot?

Thanks again, loving SoM so far.

Just a bit of a bump for these Conscript questions?

Thanks

[Ssalarn]

Been looking over the Conscript a lot, and I feel like the Sphere Specialisations are pretty weak for the ~7 feats you are giving up to get them. Would it be too late to make Sphere Spec. worth 2 points? I realise that you guys have done a lot of playtesting with everything, but I can't for the life of me work out how it's worth it, especially considering as far as I can tell by RAW the answer to my next question is no.

We're pretty good with the 3 point cost, for several reasons. It means you can't take two without sacrificing talents, which is important to prevent it from being too much of an irresistable 1 level dip like incanter. The value is actually pretty solid too across the life of the class. You get a bonus talent, two class abilities, and a capstone, which is a solid benefit; taking Dual Wielding as an example, the bonus talent is worth a feat, Perfect Ambidexterity is the equivalent of a strong feat that would probably have prereqs (call it a feat and a half), Rending Strike is the equivalent of Two-Weapon Rend and a critical feat, and Eviscerate is a strong class feature worth about two feats. Plus the effective BAB/HD bump is equivalent to about a trait, so the cost to value is really close to what we want to see and making them any cheaper would make the classes early levels much too powerful.

For the "Conscript level+1=BAB for your specialised sphere" ability, does that stack with BAB you get from other classes? I understand that you are trying to not replicate the dipping heaven that is the Incanter, but it's definitely a bum deal if it doesn't stack.

It does not. The bonus is something we intended to help encourage treating the conscript as a class instead of a ready source of cheap feats/talents that you graft onto another class (like the Incanter). It can help soften the transition into a non-full BAB class but it's not really meant to help shift bonuses over to another chassis.

Finally, does the aforementioned "Conscript level+1=BAB" ability include for attack actions associated with a Sphere, eg. a Deadly Shot?

Yes. It applies to any abilities granted by the sphere, including special attack actions.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

[Mithril Leaf]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

I do believe that natural weapon attacks count as weapon attacks, but don't quote me as a rules source for that.

[stack]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

Errata is making it work with natural attacks.

[EldritchWeaver]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?

[khadgar567]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?

funny thing is you don't need haramaki if you are using protection sphere and if unarmored training stacks then we have first buck naked dex combatant in pathfinder history.

[Galacktic]

funny thing is you don't need haramaki if you are using protection sphere and if unarmored training stacks then we have first buck naked dex combatant in pathfinder history.

What protection sphere? Do you mean Guardian? And if so, what talent?

[EldritchWeaver]

What protection sphere? Do you mean Guardian? And if so, what talent?

I think he means SoP's Protection sphere with Armored Magic talent. Bad news though. That talent won't stack when using the armor bonus option. It is a bit of a problem, considering the Living Weapon archetype would really work with Unarmored Training well otherwise.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I do believe that natural weapon attacks count as weapon attacks, but don't quote me as a rules source for that.

It currently specifically calls out natural weapon attacks as not being able to be redirected. However...

Errata is making it work with natural attacks.

Thank you! This is great to know.

[Ssalarn]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?

A haramaki would still count as armor. We'll be adding the following options to the final version of the book before it goes to print to open things up a bit:

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.


New martial tradition:
Tattooed Warrior
Bonus Talents: Equipment: Unarmed Training, Unarmored Training
Bonus Feats: Dragon’s Tattoos, Zodiac Tattoos
Special: Characters with the Tattooed Warrior tradition gain 1 bonus skill point that must be spent on Craft (tattoos) each time they gain a level in any class.


We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions.

Unarmored Training is a very strong option currently but we've heard the requests to open up armor special abilities to our unarmored combatants and we think that this will be the best and most balanced way to accommodate that. The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences.

It also came up in the Drop Dead Studios forums, but we'll also be removing the limitation preventing unarmored training from being usable with shields. This should leave tons of room for customization without making unarmored combat the hands down best choice for defense.

[AlienFromBeyond]

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.

Could this get "or similar ability" to AC Bonus class feature so it will also work with, say, Prescient Dodger? There are many class features that act in a manner similar to Monk's AC Bonus without being the same name. Unarmored Training itself uses that wording anyways for what it doesn't stack with, so there's precedent for it within SoM.

Otherwise, looks good to me! How come it lets you get +6 of armor special abilities instead of +5 though? Just a typo or intentional?

[digiman619]

How come it lets you get +6 of armor special abilities instead of +5 though? Just a typo or intentional?

Because you need at least one +1 before you can apply special qualities to weapons and armor.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Because you need at least one +1 before you can apply special qualities to weapons and armor.

It already makes your count as having +1, you go straight to special abilities with the feat.

[digiman619]

It already makes your count as having +1, you go straight to special abilities with the feat.

Yeah, but the base +1 is still there, so if you want +5 worth of abilities you will have a total of +6.

[Mehangel]

Perhaps it would be better if it were reworded to:

Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature (or similar ability).
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. Zodiac Etchings cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +6. You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.

[EldritchWeaver]

A haramaki would still count as armor. We'll be adding the following options to the final version of the book before it goes to print to open things up a bit:

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.


New martial tradition:
Tattooed Warrior
Bonus Talents: Equipment: Unarmed Training, Unarmored Training
Bonus Feats: Dragon’s Tattoos, Zodiac Tattoos
Special: Characters with the Tattooed Warrior tradition gain 1 bonus skill point that must be spent on Craft (tattoos) each time they gain a level in any class.


We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions.

Unarmored Training is a very strong option currently but we've heard the requests to open up armor special abilities to our unarmored combatants and we think that this will be the best and most balanced way to accommodate that. The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences.

It also came up in the Drop Dead Studios forums, but we'll also be removing the limitation preventing unarmored training from being usable with shields. This should leave tons of room for customization without making unarmored combat the hands down best choice for defense.

Perhaps it would be better if it were reworded to:

Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature (or similar ability).
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. Zodiac Etchings cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +6. You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.

Fixed that for you. ;)

Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?

[digiman619]

Fixed that for you. ;)

Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?

It has IUS because it was originally from their Luchador class.

[EldritchWeaver]

It has IUS because it was originally from their Luchador class.

I meant, how Tattooed Warrior does fulfill that prereq, but interesting to know.

Consulting my oracle revealed, that a good chunk of weapon and armor abilities are flat gp costs, as well there are some, which depend on the enhancement bonus (like Staunching). Are there plans to grant those with another feat or do you say that opens a can of worms?

[GreatGoatEater]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?

[EldritchWeaver]

It just occurred to me, would/should Dragon's Tattoos affect natural weapons as well? Unarmed Training is going to affect natural weapons as well after all.

[Mehangel]

Consulting my oracle revealed, that a good chunk of weapon and armor abilities are flat gp costs, as well there are some, which depend on the enhancement bonus (like Staunching). Are there plans to grant those with another feat or do you say that opens a can of worms?

Actually weapons are fairly well set when it comes to allowed weapon specials. Armor on the other hand are hurting in that department. On the PFSRD, there are almost no +2 or +4 armor specials that aren't flat gp costs.

[AlienFromBeyond]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?

I think RAW you actually get stuck with the default of Wisdom, which is unfortunate. This seems like an oversight in the spellcasting for SoM progression exchange rules, they should probably say that your practitioner modifier for the class is whatever stat you used for was. Otherwise Paladin is pretty darn sad about the deal.

[Quarian Rex]

Some thoughts on the Technician and the Invention system. Great job overall. I have seen many attempts to do tech type things in this game but most just come off as variant spellcasting but worse. You avoided this by relying on meaningful sidegrades that feel more like extensions of masterwork crafting (I mean this in a good way) and I quite appreciate that. Balancing the utility with difficulty to use with the scaling penalties for multiple Improvements works amazingly, limiting the proliferation of power without handwaving incongruent limitations. Again, great job.

There are some things that I have noticed and concerns/possible missed opportunities that I want to look at though. First would be the Autonomous Creations. I love this thing. Being able to create independent inventions apart from your class features is every kind of goodness that an aspiring pioneer of a future technological revolution could want. Cost seems to be on point even. Now you can make robot bodyguards, steam powered, AI driven taxi-cabs, and clockwork, self-targeting siege engines. What could be wrong? Nothing, other than the fact that this cannot be done unless you grant the invention autonomy. I see that as a bit of a problem. Being able to make the most advantageous version of an invention (one with its own set of actions and crafted HD) but nothing less is a gross oversight. Then there is the fact that a Technician can make fully autonomous constructs for others without losing access to one of his precious prototypes but he can't outfit a good sized party with Self-Supporting backpacks or Improved Mobility armor.

My suggestion would be to expand the utility found in Autonomous Creations to the other crafting Technical Insights. Keep Autonomous Creations essentially the same, just make the autonomy aspect a separate Improvement (that needs to be paid for separately) that is unlocked by this insight, so that autonomy has an opportunity cost instead of being the default. Have Craftsman’s Insight grant the ability to create permanent Inventions from Grand Gadget, Improved Backpack, Improved Boots, Improved Gloves, and Improved Goggles, all costing 500 gp x (the number of improvements they possess) plus the cost of the item being augmented. Forger’s Insight would allow permanent augmentations from Improved Armor, Improved Crossbow, Improved Firearm, Improved Melee Weapon, Improved Shield, and Improved Suit at the same cost. Greater Craftsman can be kept as is since it unlocks all the other crafted constructs in the game and I think that it provides some great lateral choices for the player.

None of these really need any kind of limitations on the number of inventions added due to the penalties for non-Technicians. The only addition needed would be to say that a Technician suffers non-Technician penalties for any Improvements past his class Improvement limit (plus 1 for every selection of Inventor’s Insight he has selected, keeping it relevant even after he can make the items permanently). This way a Technician can make an item so over-engineered that even he cannot use it. The fact that the Improvements are balanced pretty damn well and don't stack ridiculously lead to a lot of interesting options.

For Craftsman’s Insight, Forger’s Insight, and Greater Craftsman I would appreciate stating in the text whether magic items/constructs made with these abilities are technological (aka [Ex] effects) or are still considered to be magical. There is precedent for this in the Technology Guide, and I think this would be thematically appropriate, but it needs to be spelled out.

The Unethical Science Inventions from the Mad Scientist (great archetype btw) should really be amended to add, "Each time it is selected, the wielder may use the invention an additional 3 (or 6 for Portal Gun) times, or may create a separate version that can be used 3 times.", similar to what is included under Grand Gadget.

Adding, "The integrated item can be improved as a separate Invention.", to Weaponized Gadget (from Grand Gadgets), Integrated Shield (from Improved Crossbow and Improved Melee Weapon), Integrated Weapon (from Improved Crossbow), and Integrated Gun (from Improved Melee Weapon and Improved Shield) would be bloody awesome as well. Letting a Technician rock an over/under barrel option for his favorite Inventions instead of having them all strapped to his back like a pleb (at the cost of an Improvement of course) would be all the good.

Adding a note to Unethical Science that these options (other than Reanimation) can be added to other inventions through the Integrated Gun and Integrated Weapon improvements as if they were an appropriately sized weapon would be appreciated for the same reason.

I missed most of the playtest but have become a big fan since the release. Hearing that you will be doing an update before print lead to me hoping that the above might be addressed and slid in.

[Ssalarn]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?

I think RAW you actually get stuck with the default of Wisdom, which is unfortunate. This seems like an oversight in the spellcasting for SoM progression exchange rules, they should probably say that your practitioner modifier for the class is whatever stat you used for was. Otherwise Paladin is pretty darn sad about the deal.

I've put a note in our errata to add the following sentence to the end of the "Combat Training For Non-Spheres of Might Classes" section-
"Characters who trade their spellcasting for a combat talent progression use whatever ability score affected their spellcasting as their practitioner modifier (for example, a paladin who trades their spellcasting for a Proficient combat talent progression would use Charisma as their practitioner modifier)."

Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?

As I mentioned in the same post where I included the new feat and martial tradition-
"We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions. [...] The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences."
We have updated the martial tradition text to state that you do not need to meet the prerequisites of a feat or talent granted by a martial tradition to gain its benefits.
Any character capable of enchanting arms or armor can apply the enchantments to your tattoos, and adding the enhancements takes the same amount of time as enhancing a weapon or suit of armor.

[EldritchWeaver]

Any character capable of enchanting arms or armor can apply the enchantments to your tattoos, and adding the enhancements takes the same amount of time as enhancing a weapon or suit of armor.

I can't help but thinking that this is somewhat unfortunate. I mean, if you order a new sword, you aren't forced to watch the guy working on it. But I can understand why you wouldn't want to remove the time limits. Maybe if the preparation can be done without having to stay several days at the wizard's place?

Also, is there any reason why you need to limit Zodiac Etchings entchantment-wise as it is? I think you are already paying a feat for circumventing a limitation, which includes the natural tradeoff that you can't change your armor just because you found the cool loot (which means that you always pay effectively double for your personal enchantments, too). All in all, using that feat is more resource intensive already compared to getting armor outfitted, so no other limits seem necessary.

[kkplx]

Is it possible to combine the Equipment Sphere Talent "Duelist’s Grip" with the conscript's Finesse Training to apply 1 1/2 your dexterity bonus to attacks that qualify for duelist's grip?

If yes, does this also mean that if you wield your finesse training weapon in 2 hands, can you add 1 1/2 times your dex modifier to damage?

[Mehangel]

Is it possible to combine the Equipment Sphere Talent "Duelist’s Grip" with the conscript's Finesse Training to apply 1 1/2 your dexterity bonus to attacks that qualify for duelist's grip?

If yes, does this also mean that if you wield your finesse training weapon in 2 hands, can you add 1 1/2 times your dex modifier to damage?

While I am not a Dev, I would as a GM rule in favor of allowing the combination of the Duelist's Grip talent with the Conscript's Finesse Training ability, thus allowing you to apply 1 1/2 your Dex mod to attacks that qualify.

I probably would also allow you to add 1 1/2 times your Dex mod to damage with your finesse training weapons wielded in 2 hands (such as Elven Curve Blades), just as long as the weapon in question doesn't include lines like the rapier which state:

Drawback: You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.

In any case, I am supposing the answer to your second question might have to wait till Paizo releases a FAQ (if they have not already) about how it works with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training and Elven Curve Blades.

[kkplx]

I'd like to pose a scenario that should be possible, to see if I'm getting it right:

You need, at level 1:
Barrage Sphere
Trap Sphere with 2 Drawbacks (must immediately trigger, and only use darts, to get trap wielder and opportunist) and 2 talents (Trapper's recovery, Rapid Placement)
This can be achieved with the mechanic archetype and two talents spent


You gain: 4 attacks in one round, as long as your trap hits, repeatable each round.

start round
- Expend your focus with Rapid Placement to place your dart trap and trigger it immediately, as a move action
- As the opponent is hit, you take an attack of opportunity, and regain your focus as an immediate action
- You then Barrage, attacking twice
end round

If you want a failsafe for the focus, simply take Blitz focus later to get a second chance to recover, when you barrage, in case your trap misses

Did I get this correctly?

[edited to add the needed Rapid Placement, thanks Sam C.]