[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Adam Meyers]

Technician Responses

"For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?"

It is half damage, so upgrades like Mechanical Savant and such would apply.

"For the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?"

You can use any of your own powers from within the suit; in essence, you can act as normal (except move, since that would leave the suit), or you can spend those actions piloting. In essence, unless the suit is covered, the cockpit is open air and you can fire a gun, throw a gadget, or whatever else you would like to do, assuming you can reach the target from your perch.

Comment that was forwarded to me but I can't seem to find the source in my quick searches: "How does Aided Flight taken twice interact with the Athletics Sphere?"

It means you can apply (mobility) talents to that movement, and you can use talents like Diving strike with your movement, or use Wall Jump to make a swift action jump as if the aided flight was just a normal jump.

@Quarian Rex's Comments:

Those are some good ideas. I'll have to think about the implications of them as well as how exactly they would be implemented, but I appreciate the post.

Craftsman's Insight, Forger's Insight, and Greater Craftsman were intended to be magical (you know, in case you don't have a blacksmith in the party); between magic, improved items, and the technology guide there are so many systems for augmenting items that I prefer to keep them separate yet accessible as needed. That being said, if we do open up permanent inventions, those would still be Ex, including the independent inventions.

Those notes on Unethical Science sound appropriate to add, yeah.

[Quarian Rex]

@Quarian Rex's Comments:

Those are some good ideas. I'll have to think about the implications of them as well as how exactly they would be implemented, but I appreciate the post.

Craftsman's Insight, Forger's Insight, and Greater Craftsman were intended to be magical (you know, in case you don't have a blacksmith in the party); between magic, improved items, and the technology guide there are so many systems for augmenting items that I prefer to keep them separate yet accessible as needed. That being said, if we do open up permanent inventions, those would still be Ex, including the independent inventions.

Those notes on Unethical Science sound appropriate to add, yeah.

Thanks for having a look. In an attempt to nudge you, I would like to point that technology, by its very nature, lends itself very well to proliferation. Adding the option to do so when the Technician acquires the ability make and distribute magic items is quite thematically appropriate. The cat's already out of the bag with Autonomous Creations (and for the love of the babby jebus don't think that this is a request to put the cat back in the bag!) since I think that would have the greatest potential impact on the game, the rest is just filling in the middle-ground. That, and it gets away from the appearance that technological Inventions are somehow soulbound to their creator. That fits less well.

Even keeping the creation cost at 500 gp per improvement (as per Autonomous Creations), while costly (this is equivalent to a 1,000 gp base cost magic item, one that comes with penalties to its use), is acceptable. One of the key draws when playing any kind of 'maker' class (and this is one of the best maker classes I have encountered) is seeing what you have made get used. Seeing the final battle of the campaign between warring armies be turned (at staggeringly great expense) due to the king's 1st rifleman regiment and their shiny new railguns is something that should not be denied. The fact that you have a system set up where an attempt to abuse this by arming everyone with Integrated Shield/Powerful Load/Pressurized Shot/Speed Lever/Enhanced Reliability/Explosive Round/Railguns would only result in a bloated monstrosity incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn (even with a touch attack!), yet can still be made, is uniquely well balanced and a testament to a solid design philosophy.

*nudge*

Also, any thoughts on adding a Trait that would allow a character to ignore one Improvement for the purposes of penalties when using an Invention? Perhaps call it Technophile, or Early Adopter, or The Igor? I think that there should be some widely accessible option to represent a society that has embraced this sort of thing.

[A.J.Gibson]

For the errata: 'breath' instead of 'breathe' in 3 places.

[arkangel111]

In regards to prodigy...

How many links do you actually think an average prodigy will get?

Rnd 1 - some form of standard action to get the opener for 1
Rnd 2 - atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, move for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 3 - regain focus (move?), atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 4 - Repeat rnd 3 or finish for 8-10 links assuming save or AoO
Rnd 5* - Race to next combat or atk

*Most combats are over in 5 rounds if not sooner so rnd 5 is best spent full attack for 1 link and no finisher

It seems to me this class was designed with Leroy Jenkins in mind, since to get any real benefit your best bet is to run through the whole dungeon and make a last stand.

thats 3 std action attacks and 1 finisher, likely being 2-3 spells for rnd 4, since the only real good combat finisher is Arcane Apocalypse. At first I thought doombringer might be decent but realistically its only 3 attacks, which you get at level 15 if you just sit still anyways and it doesn't use up your links, And AA is 2-3 spells in a round WITH a boosted caster level.

This feels, I guess underwhelming... I mean this class kind of forces you to build with vital strike in mind, which isn't that good for a med BAB class. Also, you'll have to fit mobility into the build since you HAVE to move every turn to gain links, which forces AoO's unless you full withdraw but then you short change yourself on links. Not to mention the gaining and losing martial focus constantly for no reason other than gaining links.

I hope I am missing something cause this feels like too much work (tracking) for little to no benefit. None of the links really give that great of benefit until finishers. Of the finishers the only one that is decent is going to be AA, but a dedicated caster probably has quickened and can start that on round 1 while you are waiting till the 4th round to cast 3, putting you ultimately behind by 2 spells. I guess it could be really nice, if it doesn't cost spell points when using the finisher but that is not mentioned so I assume you still have to pay the cost.


*EDIT - Also with the class links and martial spheres missing it is hard to playtest since most of the testing is dependent on the interaction between spheres and class features. Can we get the playtest links returned?

[EldritchWeaver]

In regards to prodigy...

How many links do you actually think an average prodigy will get?

Rnd 1 - some form of standard action to get the opener for 1
Rnd 2 - atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, move for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 3 - regain focus (move?), atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 4 - Repeat rnd 3 or finish for 8-10 links assuming save or AoO
Rnd 5* - Race to next combat or atk

*Most combats are over in 5 rounds if not sooner so rnd 5 is best spent full attack for 1 link and no finisher

It seems to me this class was designed with Leroy Jenkins in mind, since to get any real benefit your best bet is to run through the whole dungeon and make a last stand.

thats 3 std action attacks and 1 finisher, likely being 2-3 spells for rnd 4, since the only real good combat finisher is Arcane Apocalypse. At first I thought doombringer might be decent but realistically its only 3 attacks, which you get at level 15 if you just sit still anyways and it doesn't use up your links, And AA is 2-3 spells in a round WITH a boosted caster level.

This feels, I guess underwhelming... I mean this class kind of forces you to build with vital strike in mind, which isn't that good for a med BAB class. Also, you'll have to fit mobility into the build since you HAVE to move every turn to gain links, which forces AoO's unless you full withdraw but then you short change yourself on links. Not to mention the gaining and losing martial focus constantly for no reason other than gaining links.

I hope I am missing something cause this feels like too much work (tracking) for little to no benefit. None of the links really give that great of benefit until finishers. Of the finishers the only one that is decent is going to be AA, but a dedicated caster probably has quickened and can start that on round 1 while you are waiting till the 4th round to cast 3, putting you ultimately behind by 2 spells. I guess it could be really nice, if it doesn't cost spell points when using the finisher but that is not mentioned so I assume you still have to pay the cost.


*EDIT - Also with the class links and martial spheres missing it is hard to playtest since most of the testing is dependent on the interaction between spheres and class features. Can we get the playtest links returned?

I think there are more openers and links available than you mention here, but yes, it seems tricky to get enough links for the really good stuff. I'm going to play a prodigy tomorrow, so I'll see how useful he'll be. There are talents which reduce the chance of AoOs: Mobility and Moving Target (if taken twice). Admittedly, I'm not sure which route is better, if you can't get all of them.

Also playtest docs can be found here: *removed because I was being asked to*. Just be aware that those are different enough compared to the current PDF (which still gets another revision), so those docs aren't that useful. You might want to wait until the wiki adds the current stuff at least, or just to buy the book. ;)

Edit:

Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?

[arkangel111]

Can't bring myself to buy a book just to playtest. I love spheres of power but I'm not impressed with might so far. Granted I only got a brief glimpse, most of it seemed to complicate things more than necessary imo.
I'm still leaning towards PoW for martials and SoP for casters. But like I said I haven't had a good look at it either. Hopefully they'll still be playtesting this when SoM makes it online.

[digiman619]

Can't bring myself to buy a book just to playtest. I love spheres of power but I'm not impressed with might so far. Granted I only got a brief glimpse, most of it seemed to complicate things more than necessary imo.
I'm still leaning towards PoW for martials and SoP for casters. But like I said I haven't had a good look at it either. Hopefully they'll still be playtesting this when SoM makes it online.

Well, the spheres of power wiki is puting the details up there, hopefully they should have everything up by Monday.

[Sam C.]

Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?

This does not allow you to reach any space you would not normally be able to reach with associate movement modes you posses.

Most people cannot walk through walls, so I would assume not.

[Wartex1]

It just depends on what the wall is made of

[Galacktic]

But if you combine it with Unstoppable, the sky (and your skull) are the limit!

[RedMop]

Some questions.

Q1: Guardian Sphere and Massive Damage - with Greater Delayed Damage taken twice, it is 5x level. With poor HP rolling, it is possible to have more than 50% of your total HPs in the delayed damage pool. When does the Massive Damage check happen? If I am hit 5 times for 10 damage, and I can handle taking 50 in my delayed damage pool, do I have to deal with Massive Damage when I apply the damage to my real HPs? It seems more clear that by taking a single 50 point hit, I'd need to deal with Massive Damage right now, instead of at the end of my turn, though I'm not certain this is correct.

Q2: Scholar Animal Training, Large - Exactly what abilities of the familiar do I keep? Which BAB/Saves/HPs/Skills do I use? Does the natural armor stack? Can I still apply familiar archetypes to the critter?

[RedMop]

Also, Page 194, Butcher blends in with the green splotches at the top. Maybe a different color is needed there.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I really want to say how much I dislike the font used for sphere/talent names. I have multiple times read the IC as K instead. It's the C in particular that I hate, though I'm no fan of the O either. I realize it's probably way too late to change it now, but I think it was a serious mistake that honestly impedes readability of the product.

[Mehangel]

I really want to say how much I dislike the font used for sphere/talent names. I have multiple times read the IC as K instead. It's the C in particular that I hate, though I'm no fan of the O either. I realize it's probably way too late to change it now, but I think it was a serious mistake that honestly impedes readability of the product.

I actually thought that it was funny as I also misread a bunch of Open Hand talents as being: Spinning Heel KKK, KKK-Off, Snap KKK, etc.

[digiman619]

Why does Monk Weapon Training care about Flurry of Blows/Brawler's Flurry when the monk and brawler archetypes trade them away?

[RedMop]

Why does Monk Weapon Training care about Flurry of Blows/Brawler's Flurry when the monk and brawler archetypes trade them away?

You don't need the archetype to use the spheres. You can just spend feats.

[digiman619]

You don't need the archetype to use the spheres. You can just spend feats.

I keep forgetting that is a thing...

[Ssalarn]

Q2: Scholar Animal Training, Large - Exactly what abilities of the familiar do I keep? Which BAB/Saves/HPs/Skills do I use? Does the natural armor stack? Can I still apply familiar archetypes to the critter?

Wherever you have overlap, use whichever stats are most advantageous. You can take both familiar and animal companion archetypes.

If Paizo answers one of the FAQ requests regarding the shaman's ability to gain a combo familiar/animal companion, that ruling would override this one.

[RedMop]

Wherever you have overlap, use whichever stats are most advantageous. You can take both familiar and animal companion archetypes.

If Paizo answers one of the FAQ requests regarding the shaman's ability to gain a combo familiar/animal companion, that ruling would override this one.

Can that be added to the animal training description?

[AlienFromBeyond]

Probably got caught in a sweep that was being done to normalize bonus types. We use set bonus types to limit stacking and preserve the math framework of the game and system; in SoM competence represents the bonus type we felt was the best fit for martial, well, competence, as well as preventing those abilities from excessively stacking with other options and further distorting the math of the skill system since it gets used heavily in our talents. Anyways, I'll add that to the list so it works as intended.

What about the competence bonuses in other places? For example, why does Iron Grip in Wrestling give a competence bonus instead of untyped like its associated feat, Improved Grapple? It just makes taking the talents a worse option than the actual feats if you've got some other source of competence bonuses, and I thought talents were supposed to always be at least as good, if not better, than feats. They don't even start out as strong, and pretty much everyone who would want to take a talent with an associated feat of Improved X will also want the talent that is associated with Greater X, so the bonus doesn't even catch up when comparing the two talents vs the two feats.

[EldritchWeaver]

I think there are more openers and links available than you mention here, but yes, it seems tricky to get enough links for the really good stuff. I'm going to play a prodigy tomorrow, so I'll see how useful he'll be. There are talents which reduce the chance of AoOs: Mobility and Moving Target (if taken twice). Admittedly, I'm not sure which route is better, if you can't get all of them.

Actually, I missed that can create more than one link per round, if you chose the right things and everything went well, you can gain 3 links per round. And without wasting actions to get a link, although I can see myself that doing that, if you really have nothing else to do.

Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?

Most people cannot walk through walls, so I would assume not.

Maybe I should clarify. Does the movement mode actually require that in theory you can use it from your current point of space with your respective movement speed to get to the target space within a move action?

If not, then you could go to a floating platform, because land movement supports staying on the platform. If not, you could walk the long route around the house to enter the room. Personally, I don't see why those restrictions have to be there (aside from range). Warp doesn't care for this at all. And there is a PoW maneuver equivalent for this.

Q4: The I Will Come talent states that you are exhausted after using it. Can you remove the condition as usual or are you forced to wait the time stated?

[digiman619]

For those interested, the Spheres of Power wiki now has the Spheres of Might rules on it.

[exelsisxax]

For those interested, the Spheres of Power wiki now has the Spheres of Might rules on it.

All the orange links fooled me, but they indeed go to real pages now.

[Wartex1]

I have a question about the Barrage Sphere.

The text for the Barrage Sphere says:

"Beginning at 6 base attack bonus, you may expend your martial focus to make an additional extra attack, increasing the penalty to all your attacks from -2 to -4. For every 5 points of base attack bonus you possess, you may increase this penalty by an additional -2 to make an additional extra attack."

Is it supposed to say for every additional 5 points of base attack bonus, or just every 5? And (I think this is implied, but I'm not entirely sure) the extra attacks from BAB require expending Martial Focus, right? Otherwise, it feels that it makes regular attack actions strictly better than Full Attacks for little to no investment, but with requiring the expense of martial focus, it seems more balanced, so I believe that's the intention.

On a similar note, Mobile Focus seems strictly better than Focusing Reload for most ranged weapon users, and Perfect Shot makes little sense, especially when combined with Improved Precise Shot. Somehow, you get more accurate when firing at someone in cover than when you're not? I'd recommend making it closer to Improved Precise Shot in function and making IPS the Associated Feat for the talent.

[digiman619]

All the orange links fooled me, but they indeed go to real pages now.

Yeah, that sylistic choice made it difficult to determine what was and wasn't up yet over the last few days. Now that it's all up, however, you can tell at a glance which system a given thing is for. Makes me wonder what they'll do when Champions of the Spheres comes out. Green, perhaps?

[stack]

Actually, I missed that can create more than one link per round, if you chose the right things and everything went well, you can gain 3 links per round. And without wasting actions to get a link, although I can see myself that doing that, if you really have nothing else to do.





Maybe I should clarify. Does the movement mode actually require that in theory you can use it from your current point of space with your respective movement speed to get to the target space within a move action?

If not, then you could go to a floating platform, because land movement supports staying on the platform. If not, you could walk the long route around the house to enter the room. Personally, I don't see why those restrictions have to be there (aside from range). Warp doesn't care for this at all. And there is a PoW maneuver equivalent for this.

Q4: The I Will Come talent states that you are exhausted after using it. Can you remove the condition as usual or are you forced to wait the time stated?

Flash step is meant to get you where you could go with your normal movement (move, charge, withdraw, run, whatever), just without passing through the intervening spaces.

A4: The exhausted condition can be removed as normal, nothing prevents it.

[Cybershark]

Now that the Spheres of Might stuff is up on a wiki I can reference it a lot more easily. Was thinking up a fencing-focused Swashbuckler build when I realized: why does Swashbuckler not get the Fencing sphere + Fencing Parry and Riposte (or just the Fencing Sphere P/R talent as a standalone, anyhow) as a replacement for Swashbuckler Parry/Riposte?

Fencing Parry/Riposte requires martial focus, makes you spend an AoO to block an attack, but at +5 BaB (Swashbuckler 5), allows expenditure of martial focus to make an attack against a target who attacked you.

Swashbuckler Parry/Riposte is pretty much identical, except it requires an IMMEDIATE ACTION to make the riposte: in the world of Spheres of Might, an Immediate Action is REALLY valuable as a lot of real nice things key off it or the swift action, and it feels like it chokes the Swashbuckler harder on their swift action.

Edit: second question, I know there's a shield focus replacer, but why not a weapon focus replacer? I'm tempted to houserule discipline talents as counting as the Weapon Focus feat for being prereqs (but not granting the +1).

[Ssalarn]

Edit: second question, I know there's a shield focus replacer, but why not a weapon focus replacer? I'm tempted to houserule discipline talents as counting as the Weapon Focus feat for being prereqs (but not granting the +1).

By and large we avoided adding flat accuracy boosters to the talents, or talents that replaced prereq-free or prereq-light feats unless those feats were absolutely necessary to a combat style. Weapon Focus is both easily accessible and used as a gate on a number of class features like the warpriest's sacred weapon, so replicating it as a talent didn't make sense.

[...]I thought talents were supposed to always be at least as good, if not better, than feats. They don't even start out as strong, and pretty much everyone who would want to take a talent with an associated feat of Improved X will also want the talent that is associated with Greater X, so the bonus doesn't even catch up when comparing the two talents vs the two feats.

There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang. Our focus was on making talents that added mobility, versatility, and enabled builds and concepts right from level one. We chose to do that while preserving the basic math framework of the game and only making meaningful escalations or adjustments in areas where the math breaks down, like when significant size modifiers start getting applied to CMB/CMD. Part of preserving that framework involves consistency on our end when it comes to assigning bonus types.

[digiman619]

The paragon archetype's Divine Defense reads

"Whenever a paragon challenges a foe, that foe does not gain an attack bonus against the paragon. At 6th level and every six levels afterwards, the paragon gains a +1 bonus to their AC against attacks made by creatures whom they have challenged."

Does that mean it's a straight die roll vs AC? Because it's rather easy to get your AC to be 20 or higher, and that would make everything other than natural 20's miss. Sure, it's only against foes with an opposite alignment, but that seems really easy to exploit; I'd love to be a Good Paragon in a Wrath of the Righteous game or an Evil one in a Way of the Wicked game, for instance.

[Ssalarn]

The paragon archetype's Divine Defense reads
Does that mean it's a straight die roll vs AC? Because it's rather easy to get your AC to be 20 or higher, and that would make everything other than natural 20's miss. Sure, it's only against foes with an opposite alignment, but that seems really easy to exploit; I'd love to be a Good Paragon in a Wrath of the Righteous game or an Evil one in a Way of the Wicked game, for instance.

I'm fairly certain that that is only supposed to negate the +2 bonus a foe gets against you when you challenge them, but I kicked it over to Ehn for clarification since Sentinel is his baby.