New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 27 of 45 FirstFirst ... 2171819202122232425262728293031323334353637 ... LastLast
Results 781 to 810 of 1336
  1. - Top - End - #781
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Legendary Games
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    Is it just me, or do Sphere Specific Drawbacks seem a lot more restricting in Spheres of Might than they do in Spheres of Power? I think a good 70% of them don't actually give you a choice in which talent you gain for taking the drawback. This is opposed to Spheres of Power, where I think only about 10% of talents actually impose a specific choice on you when you take the drawback. Can we do something about this? For a system that prides itself on customization and player choice, this seems very counterproductive.

    Warleader Sphere is probably the most egregious example. If you don't want tactics then you MUST take Frightful Roar, no other shout is possible. And if you don't want shouts then you MUST take Courier’s Dash, no other tactic can be obtained. It's unnecessarily constraining, and it does nothing but increase wordcount.
    We decided to go more restrictive here to try and keep balance better, as we'd like drawbacks to be something that's more of a controlled element than it was before. Making them more structured will allow GMs to be more permissive of them since they're a known quantity, and it better lets us model what we'd like to do with these drawbacks. I can understand that it might not be the most popular call, but in the long term, we think it's the healthiest for the system.

  2. - Top - End - #782
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    turkey
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    is might drawbacks count for power drawbacks so when i have rower traning in character did i have 3 drawbacks or 5 with my might drawbacks count in the total.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  3. - Top - End - #783
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    EldritchWeaver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    We decided to go more restrictive here to try and keep balance better, as we'd like drawbacks to be something that's more of a controlled element than it was before. Making them more structured will allow GMs to be more permissive of them since they're a known quantity, and it better lets us model what we'd like to do with these drawbacks. I can understand that it might not be the most popular call, but in the long term, we think it's the healthiest for the system.
    I'm not sure what the problem with balance is supposed to be. I never felt it unbalancing to have more choices in SoP. On the other hand, I do feel restricted by the premade choices considerably. If I lose scout, why is Active Camouflage the most balanced choice? Heightened Awareness for a trapfinder instead seems fine to me. Effectively you are implying that the talents aren't roughly worth the same amount. That would be a talent balance problem, not a drawback problem. IMO, if something might be unbalanced, is if you can stack several drawbacks, but I don't really see that possibility as spheres/packages grant mostly one big base feature and the talents either depend on that feature or they don't. In other words, if you cut sensible, the drawbacks of the same sphere are effectively exclusive with each other.

    Edit: Regarding Martial Traditions, I just had a simple idea how to make a fighter 1/conscript 1 the same as a conscript 1/fighter 1. First allow that retraining allows the swap of proficiencies with a martial tradition. Then stipulate that a retraining occurs if you take a practitioner class. There are several places where this occurs anyway, so this isn't a really new mechanic. If you don't like the automatic retraining, grant an opt-out in addition. The default needs to the retraining, as people building higher level characters can then ignore this dependency. Also it takes away the oddity, that a wizard 1/conscript 1 has no martial tradition and can't actually gain a martial tradition.
    Last edited by EldritchWeaver; 2017-11-18 at 04:41 AM.
    Avatar made by Mehangel - "Neigh?"

  4. - Top - End - #784
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    digiman619's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    SCP-1912-J
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    I'm not sure what the problem with balance is supposed to be. I never felt it unbalancing to have more choices in SoP. On the other hand, I do feel restricted by the premade choices considerably. If I lose scout, why is Active Camouflage the most balanced choice? Heightened Awareness for a trapfinder instead seems fine to me. Effectively you are implying that the talents aren't roughly worth the same amount. That would be a talent balance problem, not a drawback problem. IMO, if something might be unbalanced, is if you can stack several drawbacks, but I don't really see that possibility as spheres/packages grant mostly one big base feature and the talents either depend on that feature or they don't. In other words, if you cut sensible, the drawbacks of the same sphere are effectively exclusive to each other.

    Edit: Regarding Martial Traditions, I just had a simple idea how to make a fighter 1/conscript 1 the same as a conscript 1/fighter 1. First allow that retraining allows the swap of proficiencies with a martial tradition. Then stipulate that a retraining occurs if you take a practitioner class. There are several places where this occurs anyway, so this isn't a really new mechanic. If you don't like the automatic retraining, grant an opt-out in addition. The default needs to the retraining, as people building higher level characters can then ignore this dependency. Also it takes away the oddity, that a wizard 1/conscript 1 has no martial tradition and can't actually gain a martial tradition.
    I just have them retrain level 1 and let them switch it at the same time for free; so a Wizard one takes a level of Striker, but as a Wizard 1/Striker 1, it doesn't get martial tradition. If they find a trainer and spend some time training with them (retraining a level as normal) they can learn their ways (and beause they'd have their first level be a martial class , they would now get a martial tradition), I'd let them swap the levels rather than force them to become a striker 2 and then a Striker 1/Wizard 1.
    Last edited by digiman619; 2017-11-18 at 11:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
    3.5 in a nutshell, ladies and gents.
    Avatar by Coronalwave

  5. - Top - End - #785
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    EldritchWeaver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    is might drawbacks count for power drawbacks so when i have rower traning in character did i have 3 drawbacks or 5 with my might drawbacks count in the total.
    If you are asking if a a SoM drawback has any interaction with SoP drawbacks: Firstly, SoM has no general drawbacks. So SoP can't count them for spell points anyway. And even if there were, the effects would be strictly separated. Secondly, sphere-specific drawbacks do not influence any spheres except the one it applies to. It doesn't matter, if you consider that cross-system or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    I just have them retrain level 1 and let them switch it at the same time for free; so a Wizard one takes a level of Striker, but as a Wizard 1/Striker 1, it doesn't get martial tradition. If they find a trainer and spend some time training with them (retraining a level as normal) they can learn their ways (and beause they'd have their first level be a martial class , they would now get a martial tradition), I'd let them swap the levels rather than force them to become a striker 2 and then a Striker 1/Wizard 1.
    While certainly a nice idea, I prefer an official rule. Especially one which allows building characters without worrying about the order of classes (as long no prestige classes are involved).



    I have a general critic: There is no easy way to actually resurrect people via SoM. It is a shame that there is no legendary formulae for this, considering that it seems fine to have one to become immortal (but requires level 20). Only the doctor archetype can true resurrect people, but this effect comes online at level 17. As most people never get to that level, this ability might not actually exist. I would prefer if the ability would come up at the same level as raise dead and would work as raise dead, then scale level-appropriate to resurrection and true resurrection. Considering that it is a relatively easy fix for the doctor archetype, which can't be unbalancing to a campaign considering its effects, I don't see a reason why one wouldn't have that change. Unless you attempt a "no resurrection" campaign, but then you can remove that archetype or that ability only anyway.
    Avatar made by Mehangel - "Neigh?"

  6. - Top - End - #786
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    We decided to go more restrictive here to try and keep balance better, as we'd like drawbacks to be something that's more of a controlled element than it was before. Making them more structured will allow GMs to be more permissive of them since they're a known quantity, and it better lets us model what we'd like to do with these drawbacks. I can understand that it might not be the most popular call, but in the long term, we think it's the healthiest for the system.
    I was under the impression that the entire point of the sphere system was to enable more player choice and character customization. This seems like a move in direct opposition to that stated goal. I was also under the impression that each option was meant to be balanced with regards to every other option. So how does taking away my choice and forcing a particular option make it more balanced? How does decreasing player choice and character customization make for a healthier system? What is so unhealthy about allowing greater player choice and customization?

    The point about GMs being more permissive doesn't particularly make sense when there are a number of drawbacks that DON'T force you to take a particular talent. None of Gladiator's drawbacks force you to take a specific talent. Yet all of Warleader's do. This isn't consistent, and becomes far less consistent when it is inevitably compared to the Spheres of Power system. Which is an issue in and of itself: Why are spellcasters afforded more choice in how they use their spheres than their martial counterparts?

    What's healthiest for a system is internal consistency. This move to limit freedom is inconsistent both with itself, and with the goals of the larger Spheres system in its entirety. I strongly hope something is done about this.

  7. - Top - End - #787
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    I was under the impression that the entire point of the sphere system was to enable more player choice and character customization. This seems like a move in direct opposition to that stated goal. I was also under the impression that each option was meant to be balanced with regards to every other option. So how does taking away my choice and forcing a particular option make it more balanced? How does decreasing player choice and character customization make for a healthier system? What is so unhealthy about allowing greater player choice and customization?

    The point about GMs being more permissive doesn't particularly make sense when there are a number of drawbacks that DON'T force you to take a particular talent. None of Gladiator's drawbacks force you to take a specific talent. Yet all of Warleader's do. This isn't consistent, and becomes far less consistent when it is inevitably compared to the Spheres of Power system. Which is an issue in and of itself: Why are spellcasters afforded more choice in how they use their spheres than their martial counterparts?

    What's healthiest for a system is internal consistency. This move to limit freedom is inconsistent both with itself, and with the goals of the larger Spheres system in its entirety. I strongly hope something is done about this.
    I'm just chiming in to say I firmly agree with all of this.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
    My Homebrew Signature such as it is.

  8. - Top - End - #788
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    I'm just chiming in to say I firmly agree with all of this.
    I also would like to say that while I am not against some drawbacks choosing the bonus talent for you, I think that there were many which did not need to be so limited and could've allowed the player to choose the bonus talent from a small list. The Scout sphere drawback is a good example of one that should've allowed the player to choose a bonus talent from a small list (including Active Camouflage and Heightened Awareness).

  9. - Top - End - #789
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    digiman619's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    SCP-1912-J
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehangel View Post
    I also would like to say that while I am not against some drawbacks choosing the bonus talent for you, I think that there were many which did not need to be so limited and could've allowed the player to choose the bonus talent from a small list. The Scout sphere drawback is a good example of one that should've allowed the player to choose a bonus talent from a small list (including Active Camouflage and Heightened Awareness).
    You have a point, but the problem with whitelists is that when "The Theives' Handbook" with a focus on sneaking (or whatnot; there is plenty of room for more talents to be written) comes out, they either have to errata the drawback or disallow you getting any of the new stuff with drawbacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
    3.5 in a nutshell, ladies and gents.
    Avatar by Coronalwave

  10. - Top - End - #790
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    I was under the impression that the entire point of the sphere system was to enable more player choice and character customization. This seems like a move in direct opposition to that stated goal. I was also under the impression that each option was meant to be balanced with regards to every other option. So how does taking away my choice and forcing a particular option make it more balanced? How does decreasing player choice and character customization make for a healthier system? What is so unhealthy about allowing greater player choice and customization?

    The point about GMs being more permissive doesn't particularly make sense when there are a number of drawbacks that DON'T force you to take a particular talent. None of Gladiator's drawbacks force you to take a specific talent. Yet all of Warleader's do. This isn't consistent, and becomes far less consistent when it is inevitably compared to the Spheres of Power system. Which is an issue in and of itself: Why are spellcasters afforded more choice in how they use their spheres than their martial counterparts?

    What's healthiest for a system is internal consistency. This move to limit freedom is inconsistent both with itself, and with the goals of the larger Spheres system in its entirety. I strongly hope something is done about this.
    Although I agree that the Warleader drawbacks are very specific, I disagree with this assertion. If I made a rule that said 'Wizards can be Wis-based instead of Int-based' that would be an increase in player choice, but by your logic, it would be a decrease, because I haven't made the option open to people who want Cha-based wizards. I don't know everything going through the minds of SoM's designers, but I do know that if they simply wanted to allow players to choose exactly what powers they want in any combination, they would have made something like Hero System or M&M on top of PF. SoM give players options by making more builds viable, but it does not try to give the player complete freedom. Doing that in a class-based system would be a huge waste of time, and part of PF is the character building mini-game.

    Instead, SoM tries to inject flavorful options into the game. Barbarism is a neat and flavorful option. If you don't like frightful roar, then don't take that drawback. Nothing is stopping you from buying the ability you want using another talent. It's not like PF, where certain classes get a blanket NO against certain things...you can have any power you want, as long as you pay for it. That is how SoM enables options. That, and making the cost of abilities at least close to their utility (**** Combat Expertise).

    In addition, drawbacks are one of the most overpowered parts of SoP (you shouldn't be able to stack them, for a start). I don't blame the writers for wanting to clamp down on them. Drawbacks are supposed to be like archetypes for spheres - providing alternate takes on a core concept - not a way to get more talents.

  11. - Top - End - #791
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Quarian Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.Gibson View Post
    Drawbacks are supposed to be like archetypes for spheres - providing alternate takes on a core concept - not a way to get more talents.
    I get what you're saying here, and even agree to a point, but I have to side with some of the other commenters on this issue. Sometimes the restrictions make sense. Bloody Slasher getting Long Cuts makes sense and someone focusing on bleed would go for that regardless. This reinforces the specialty instead of restricting it. Other times it pigeonholes characters in completely unnecessary ways.

    Warleader is the best example of this. Can you think of a leader who directs his men without bluster and spittle flying from his mouth? Who, with but a word, directs his troops to victory with the brilliance of his tactics, never having to raise his voice? Yes you can. Can you think of such a leader who can do so without making his troops move (flee) faster? Even if you've never heard of Miles Teg, Andrew "Ender" Wiggin, or Shiroe (from Log Horizon) I know that you can.

    Can you think of a leader who is incapable of advanced tactics yet carries the day on pure testicular fortitude? Yes you can. Can you think of one who does so through charisma and brashness instead of fear? If you have seen Kamina from Gurren Lagann then you sure as hell can. The current limitations on Barbarism mean that I can't make a spiritual successor to Kamina in SoM.

    Also, comparing drawbacks in SoM to those on SoP is a false equivalency I think. Where SoP offered many, many, options to gain extra talents through niche limitations, that was partially balanced against the 'talent tax' that many spheres have. While one of the design philosophies of the Spheres books seems to try to get away from such things, it is only partially successful. There are many magic spheres that require extreme investment to get passable results, and the system as a whole has evolved to reflect this, with every new book providing more talents (each often requiring far more talents to be useful), and more drawbacks in order to afford them.

    SoM seems to largely avoid this. With the exception of Beastmastery, the Might spheres are generally a big list of pretty even side-grades, each adding additional options to the base ability yet nothing really being required. All of the drawbacks for SoM are no mere niche limitations. They all remove core abilities from the base sphere (many times its only base ability) and so are usually mutually exclusive. The problems you have with drawbacks in SoP just do not exist in SoM, and the nature of talents in SoM mean that it just doesn't have to. The only thing needed to avoid the arms escalation is to keep a very tight reign on drawbacks in future books. That should be pretty easy since the current drawbacks are tightly linked to the base sphere abilities and not much else.

    TL;DR - Concern about talent/drawback bloat in SoP seems to have lead to overzealous pre-emptive nerfing of most of the SoM drawbacks. These are unnecessary limitations that don't need to be there and completely block valid, intuitive, character concepts. While restrictions can work for some drawbacks, where thematically appropriate, most of the forced choices seem to be arbitrary, unnecessary, and don't seem to actually address any valid balance concerns.

    Perhaps that can still be changed.
    Last edited by Quarian Rex; 2017-11-19 at 05:29 AM.
    Avatar of awesome goodness courtesy of Cdr.Fallout.

  12. - Top - End - #792
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    How does Vital Strike interact with the splash weapons from the Alchemy sphere? As I understand it you can use it with these weapons, but only the initial list dice would be considered base damage dice and any additional dice from higher craft alchemy would be considered a "damage bonus" for the purpose of the feat. Do I have that right or am I completely off base?
    I think I'll bump my question here since it got the tail end on the last page and I feel probably got swept by in the new turn in the discussion. Just want to make sure I understand how this interaction works. Trying to figure out if Vital Strike is a good recommendation for our resident Scholar/Sniper considering the base damage of the related splash weapons. I'm leaning on no if my interpretation is correct, but I figured I'd make sure if I was correct or not first.

  13. - Top - End - #793
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Geigan View Post
    I think I'll bump my question here since it got the tail end on the last page and I feel probably got swept by in the new turn in the discussion. Just want to make sure I understand how this interaction works. Trying to figure out if Vital Strike is a good recommendation for our resident Scholar/Sniper considering the base damage of the related splash weapons. I'm leaning on no if my interpretation is correct, but I figured I'd make sure if I was correct or not first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Improved Acid Flask
    You create a flask of acid that functions as a splash weapon you can use as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 ft., dealing 1d6 acid damage +1d6 per two Craft (alchemy) ranks you possess to the target of a direct hit, ...
    I'm not a dev or anything, but it sounds to me as if the alchemical creations are simply more potent and should be considered the 'base damage'. If made by a lvl2 Scholar, a vial of acid from the talent above will deal 2d6 damage, no matter who uses it or under what circumstances.

    (Besides, as the past few threads have pointed out, the Alchemy sphere has some issues with resources during an adventuring day. Making their limited number of formulae more powerful through Vital Strike as opposed to forcing them to full attack and run out within one or two encounters seems like a decent way to help them out.)

  14. - Top - End - #794
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Alabama
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    If I take both Techsmith and Iron Chef as a Blacksmith, can I use Technical Maintenance ("[you] can perform the following maintenance") or do I just lose Craft Magic Arms and Armor for no gain because I traded the base Maintenance feature away?

  15. - Top - End - #795
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    digiman619's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    SCP-1912-J
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Just out of curiousity, how close are you guys to getting a print run of SoM of the PDF of Champions of the Spheres?
    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
    3.5 in a nutshell, ladies and gents.
    Avatar by Coronalwave

  16. - Top - End - #796
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.Gibson View Post
    Although I agree that the Warleader drawbacks are very specific, I disagree with this assertion. If I made a rule that said 'Wizards can be Wis-based instead of Int-based' that would be an increase in player choice, but by your logic, it would be a decrease, because I haven't made the option open to people who want Cha-based wizards. I don't know everything going through the minds of SoM's designers, but I do know that if they simply wanted to allow players to choose exactly what powers they want in any combination, they would have made something like Hero System or M&M on top of PF. SoM give players options by making more builds viable, but it does not try to give the player complete freedom. Doing that in a class-based system would be a huge waste of time, and part of PF is the character building mini-game.

    Instead, SoM tries to inject flavorful options into the game. Barbarism is a neat and flavorful option. If you don't like frightful roar, then don't take that drawback. Nothing is stopping you from buying the ability you want using another talent. It's not like PF, where certain classes get a blanket NO against certain things...you can have any power you want, as long as you pay for it. That is how SoM enables options. That, and making the cost of abilities at least close to their utility (**** Combat Expertise).

    In addition, drawbacks are one of the most overpowered parts of SoP (you shouldn't be able to stack them, for a start). I don't blame the writers for wanting to clamp down on them. Drawbacks are supposed to be like archetypes for spheres - providing alternate takes on a core concept - not a way to get more talents.
    The point of Spheres of Power, at least to me, was that I could build my character the way I wanted to, without the need of having a bunch of extraneous abilities that had nothing to do with the core character concept.

    Drawbacks, I believe, were integral to this. If I wanted a character that could breathe fire in an AoE, I could spend a single talent to obtain the Destruction Sphere, a Drawback on Elemental Focus for a Fire Blast talent, and a Drawback on Shape Focus to grab Sculpt Blast. Is this now considered overpowered? Am I exploiting the system by erasing the native bludgeoning melee/ranged touch attack the Sphere gives me?

    On the contrary, Drawbacks are the strength of the Spheres of Power system. Because of them I can fine tune a character concept and be capable of using every ability. If Elemental Focus forced me to take, say, Ice Blast, then my entire character concept would be drastically altered. Sure, I could always take Fire Blast later on as another talent, however then I am now forced to deal with a section of my character that I have no intent on using. Surely you can see the problem with this?

    Just to point out, but if Sphere Drawbacks are to be considered archetypes, then why shouldn't they stack? Archetypes explicitly stack with each other so long as they don't remove the same abilities. Of course the same is true in Spheres of Power Drawbacks. So I'm afraid I really can't relate to your concerns over less stringent drawbacks.

    And it still doesn't answer the fact that some spheres have stringent drawbacks, and some don't. This is inconsistent. If lax drawbacks are a problem, then you should erase them for every sphere. Otherwise, one has to ask why it's a problem for the Warleader Sphere, but not for the Gladiator Sphere?

    And that's only within the same work. Spheres of Might will inexorably be compared to Spheres of Power, where the question then becomes, why are Spheres of Might drawbacks more stringent than Spheres of Power? It certainly isn't because of power, because I think we all agree that Spheres of Power, by design, is generally the stronger of the two.

    Honestly, this whole thing just screams, "Martials can't have nice things," IMHO. And that's pretty much the opposite of why Spheres of Might exists. Or at least, why I thought it did.

  17. - Top - End - #797
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rungo View Post
    I'm not a dev or anything, but it sounds to me as if the alchemical creations are simply more potent and should be considered the 'base damage'. If made by a lvl2 Scholar, a vial of acid from the talent above will deal 2d6 damage, no matter who uses it or under what circumstances.

    (Besides, as the past few threads have pointed out, the Alchemy sphere has some issues with resources during an adventuring day. Making their limited number of formulae more powerful through Vital Strike as opposed to forcing them to full attack and run out within one or two encounters seems like a decent way to help them out.)
    If that's the case, then I think I'll definitely consider recommending to our player using it. My only hangup was whether the damage from ranks would be considered additional damage, such as with the sniper sphere's additional damage. Overall the damage through the vital strike line does add up quite a bit, but probably still lands in the range my group would find acceptable so I have no problems with this. I just wasn't sure if all that extra damage from ranks would intentionally be considered a part of base damage or should be considered separate. I suppose whether they're additional dice also matter for the purpose of crits, so getting a dev clarification would be nice, but I'll talk to our GM about it either way.

  18. - Top - End - #798
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    I'm not sure what the problem with balance is supposed to be. I never felt it unbalancing to have more choices in SoP.
    Might talents are fundamentally different than Power talents. A magic talent from SoP gained via a drawback typically gives you one extra modification to an ability you already spent a talent to be able to use, whereas each Might talent builds off a base you already had. This means that shedding a portion of a sphere you're not as interested in to gather more talents focused towards the aspect of the sphere you want to emphasize becomes much more powerful more quickly than it does when used with SoP drawbacks. That's why the SoM drawbacks lean towards specifying a specific thematically talent that provides an alternate starting point for the sphere rather than just opening a grab-bag. It's not about limiting choice, it's about maintaining balance and consistency.

  19. - Top - End - #799
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2014

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Dinosaur View Post
    If I take both Techsmith and Iron Chef as a Blacksmith, can I use Technical Maintenance ("[you] can perform the following maintenance") or do I just lose Craft Magic Arms and Armor for no gain because I traded the base Maintenance feature away?
    You've just traded away CMAA for no gain. It adds options to Maintenance, but if you can't use Maintenance you can't use those options.
    Rudisplorker of the faith, true Rudisplorker
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Because Pun-pun was on the road to ultimate power first, and he hates your guts.
    Extended Sig

    I'm a template!

    And an artifact!

  20. - Top - End - #800
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Quarian Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssalarn View Post
    Might talents are fundamentally different than Power talents. A magic talent from SoP gained via a drawback typically gives you one extra modification to an ability you already spent a talent to be able to use, whereas each Might talent builds off a base you already had. This means that shedding a portion of a sphere you're not as interested in to gather more talents focused towards the aspect of the sphere you want to emphasize becomes much more powerful more quickly than it does when used with SoP drawbacks. That's why the SoM drawbacks lean towards specifying a specific thematically talent that provides an alternate starting point for the sphere rather than just opening a grab-bag. It's not about limiting choice, it's about maintaining balance and consistency.
    Maybe you missed it but look at my reply here. The issues with drawbacks in SoP do not really apply to drawbacks in SoM. They generally give up mutually exclusive options so any attempt to stack drawbacks (where not specifically prohibited) would essentially deny access to the entire sphere. These seem like overly harsh limitations attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the SoM system. There is no balance or consistency being maintained by these choices, and it does seem to be mainly about limiting choice without any thematic or mechanical justification.

    My previous post discussed this better. Please have a look at it.
    Avatar of awesome goodness courtesy of Cdr.Fallout.

  21. - Top - End - #801
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    And it still doesn't answer the fact that some spheres have stringent drawbacks, and some don't. This is inconsistent. If lax drawbacks are a problem, then you should erase them for every sphere. Otherwise, one has to ask why it's a problem for the Warleader Sphere, but not for the Gladiator Sphere?
    You do make a point here, and the answer is that while the design team did have a specific directive, it was inconsistently applied due to a misunderstanding. This is why all of the drawbacks will have mandated talents post-update.

    And that's only within the same work. Spheres of Might will inexorably be compared to Spheres of Power, where the question then becomes, why are Spheres of Might drawbacks more stringent than Spheres of Power? It certainly isn't because of power, because I think we all agree that Spheres of Power, by design, is generally the stronger of the two.
    You may be of that opinion, but the reality is that terms like "power" and "strength" get bandied about with no common definition or metric. SoM gives martials a huge slew of abilities they didn't have before, or not in any meaningful amount; scry and fry (technically scout and shoot, but still), teleportation, flight, versatile debuffing, area control, and healing, just to name a few. It does this while offering a wide array of ways for any character to participate in a group and significantly broadening the martial baseline. While Spheres of Power lowered caster power while giving them better niche strength, Spheres of Might actually significantly broadens martial facility without forcing them to give up any of their core strengths.

    Honestly, this whole thing just screams, "Martials can't have nice things," IMHO. And that's pretty much the opposite of why Spheres of Might exists. Or at least, why I thought it did.
    This statement isn't just ignorant, it's rude and petty. SoP drawbacks offer a minor modification or a single base ability. Now I can fire a blast of bludgeoning energy, or the bludgeoning blast deals acid damage instead. Each casting talent outside of some Advanced talents is worth about a trait.
    Each martial talent offers more, being worth a feat or more. Instead of one trick and some variations on that trick, each talent gives you a whole new option, whether that be extra attacks and debuffs against prone opponents, suplexing an opponent for a damage spike, or turning a single disarm into the foundation for an entire attack routine. And that's without touching Legendary talents that let you teleport by cleaving the air, fly by kicking your legs, kill someone in a locked room from miles away, etc.
    Martial talents cover everything from additional attacks and riders to additional skills and static bonuses, often offering two or more of those in a single talent. Some of those talents can be problematic if accumulated too quickly, pushing damage or other metrics outside of their expected bounds. That's why each drawback mandated talent is handpicked to offer a unique and thematic starting point that won't accelerate certain metrics beyond their expected functionality. This was a decision that the team reached while incorporating a year's worth of feedback from 1/2 a dozen forums and dozens of play groups, as well as years of experience, careful evaluation, and extensive number-crunching. It didn't happen because we hate martials and thought it would be a lark to go absorb abuse from random people on the internet for less than half what we would have made during the same time period working at Burger King, it happened because we love martial characters and we wanted to make a book that did them justice, which provided avenues for creating all the interesting martial characters core Pathfinder doesn't support, and which does so in a way that incorporates balance and care and is appropriate for the widest number of groups possible.

  22. - Top - End - #802
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssalarn View Post
    Each casting talent outside of some Advanced talents is worth about a trait.
    Consider literally all of Alteration, where talents give you access to multiple movement modes, scent, pounce, free trip attempts, grab, energy resistances, etc. Any of these individual abilities would be worth a feat to get, and most of the talents each give you access to multiple abilities.
    Last edited by Roadie; 2017-11-19 at 10:35 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #803
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
    Consider literally all of Alteration, where talents give you access to multiple movement modes, scent, pounce, free trip attempts, grab, energy resistances, etc. Any of these individual abilities would be worth a feat to get, and most of the talents each give you access to multiple abilities.
    Yes, but alteration does not give you these abilities by itself. It lets you use your caster level (a resource you have paid for) and spell points (a resource you have paid for) to gain a number of traits for a limited period of time, and with the complication that they can be dispelled.

  24. - Top - End - #804
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.Gibson View Post
    Yes, but alteration does not give you these abilities by itself. It lets you use your caster level (a resource you have paid for) and spell points (a resource you have paid for) to gain a number of traits for a limited period of time, and with the complication that they can be dispelled.
    And since the number of traits is very limited, that means you're generally getting different ways to use the power (do I grow wings and fly? Do I grow claws and climb?). You're not chaining many of those together, the way a martial can combo one or multiple spheres into a completely unique routine, and you can run out of them or have them taken away from you. It's also not stacking with any other polymorph effects. So it's a variation on a trick, even if that particular trick is one of the best tricks you could want.
    And even then, compare it to Atheltics, where you can get climb, fly, and swim for a similar number of talents, and they're always on, they never compete with each other, and modifications to your base speed help all of them.

  25. - Top - End - #805
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Quarian Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssalarn View Post
    It didn't happen because we hate martials and thought it would be a lark to go absorb abuse from random people on the internet for less than half what we would have made during the same time period working at Burger King
    Perhaps it might be an idea to take a breath and step back for a min. No one is trying to heap abuse on you or anyone else. The post you replied to was trying to get a point across, and seemed to do it pretty well. You apparently see that point of view as being in opposition to your own but it is not an attack and it was not abusive. Legitimate concerns about the implementation of drawbacks in SoM have been brought up, both in relation to SoP and when looked at in a vacuum, and those concerns don't seem to have been addressed.

    At best, those concerns have been met with the equivalent of, "it's for the best, we know what we're doing", but that kind of response doesn't provide any real answer. Please don't say that the decision was made for balance and to address potential problems without actually stating what those balances and problems actually are. Remember, we don't hear any of your internal discussions, we are only looking at the end result. The end result is that talent stacking using drawbacks as was seen in SoP is impossible in SoM. You can only (functionally) get a single drawback in any given Sphere (otherwise you would exclude almost all of the content of said Sphere, the only exception being the Trap Sphere, where you could functionally get two and still be viable). The abuses that your team seem so wary of don't exist. See my previous two posts on this page for why most of the current limitations don't work. Hearing that the teams response to criticism of the current limitations on SoM drawbacks is going to be adding even more limitations (instead of explaining/addressing the current issues) comes off as tone-deaf and... troubling.

    Again, this isn't to say that specific limitations can't work, some of the current ones do, but most don't. The reason why is something that needs to be discussed more openly than has been done so far.
    Avatar of awesome goodness courtesy of Cdr.Fallout.

  26. - Top - End - #806
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssalarn View Post
    You do make a point here, and the answer is that while the design team did have a specific directive, it was inconsistently applied due to a misunderstanding. This is why all of the drawbacks will have mandated talents post-update.



    You may be of that opinion, but the reality is that terms like "power" and "strength" get bandied about with no common definition or metric. SoM gives martials a huge slew of abilities they didn't have before, or not in any meaningful amount; scry and fry (technically scout and shoot, but still), teleportation, flight, versatile debuffing, area control, and healing, just to name a few. It does this while offering a wide array of ways for any character to participate in a group and significantly broadening the martial baseline. While Spheres of Power lowered caster power while giving them better niche strength, Spheres of Might actually significantly broadens martial facility without forcing them to give up any of their core strengths.



    This statement isn't just ignorant, it's rude and petty. SoP drawbacks offer a minor modification or a single base ability. Now I can fire a blast of bludgeoning energy, or the bludgeoning blast deals acid damage instead. Each casting talent outside of some Advanced talents is worth about a trait.
    Each martial talent offers more, being worth a feat or more. Instead of one trick and some variations on that trick, each talent gives you a whole new option, whether that be extra attacks and debuffs against prone opponents, suplexing an opponent for a damage spike, or turning a single disarm into the foundation for an entire attack routine. And that's without touching Legendary talents that let you teleport by cleaving the air, fly by kicking your legs, kill someone in a locked room from miles away, etc.
    Martial talents cover everything from additional attacks and riders to additional skills and static bonuses, often offering two or more of those in a single talent. Some of those talents can be problematic if accumulated too quickly, pushing damage or other metrics outside of their expected bounds. That's why each drawback mandated talent is handpicked to offer a unique and thematic starting point that won't accelerate certain metrics beyond their expected functionality. This was a decision that the team reached while incorporating a year's worth of feedback from 1/2 a dozen forums and dozens of play groups, as well as years of experience, careful evaluation, and extensive number-crunching. It didn't happen because we hate martials and thought it would be a lark to go absorb abuse from random people on the internet for less than half what we would have made during the same time period working at Burger King, it happened because we love martial characters and we wanted to make a book that did them justice, which provided avenues for creating all the interesting martial characters core Pathfinder doesn't support, and which does so in a way that incorporates balance and care and is appropriate for the widest number of groups possible.
    I did not mean to be rude or abusive by stating my opinion on one facet of your work; on the contrary, I think the system as a whole is great for helping out martial characters. However I air these complaints because I believe that this discussion could make the system even better than it already is now. It certainly does increases the power and versatility of martial characters, just as Spheres of Power reigned in the infinite versatility of spellcasters. However, in my view of a ideal game, there should be as little difference between the capabilities of a martial character and a caster character as possible. And while the two systems have certainly made huge steps in the balancing between martial and caster, I don't think we can reasonably say that SoM martials are yet equivalent to SoP casters in terms of power or versatility.

    The easiest way to prove this, is to simply look at the number of SoM Legendary Talents that are effectively replicated with SoP Base Spheres. If I want to raise an undead army, I could grab the Warleader Sphere and then take the Legendary Talent, Armies of the Dead, which has a BAB +6 prerequisite. Even then, I have to succeed on a Diplomacy check to raise the undead's attitude all the way to friendly, and all of that assumes that undead are even around for me to use Diplomacy with in the first place. Compare that to any Spheres of Power caster, who can simply take the Death Sphere. Sure there are limitations to the undead you create (mainly longevity), but the character concept of a necromancer is still functional. You can always simply animate dead as needed, whatever undead you want, without having to ask the GM for permission, and without having to hope that the GM throws non-hostile undead at you to use diplomacy on in the first place (this Legendary talent would probably work a lot better if it worked on the defeated corpses of your enemies and then raised them, IMHO).

    Let's also take a look at two of the other things you mentioned, Teleportation & Flight. Teleportation is a Legendary Talent from the Beserker Sphere, Rift Strike. It's functionally equivalent to the Advanced Talent from the Warp Sphere, True Teleport. This is great! But it's limited specifically to going from location A to B. If I want to be the guy who teleports around in combat, in a manner similar to Dimensional dervish, then I'm better served just taking the base Warp Sphere, which gives me access to short range teleportation from as early as level 1. Then there's Sparrow's Path, a Legendary Talent from the Athlethics Sphere that enables you to fly, albeit in a somewhat limited manner until level 8 or so. But in Spheres of Power, I could just as easily grab the Alteration Sphere as well as Elemental Transformation, and have access to a fly speed, a swim speed and a burrow speed all from first level, and all superior movement modes to what's available to an equivalent level Spheres of Might character, again without having to beg the GM to allow Legendary/Advanced Talents.

    So when we compare the two systems directly, it's pretty clear which system has more "power." And this is before getting into stuff like the Life Sphere, for which there is no direct analogue in Spheres of Might. With this in mind, I have no idea how you can write off the abilities one obtains from Spheres of Power as "being worth a trait" and then directly say that the abilities one gains from Spheres of Might as "being worth a feat, or more." I fear there's a major disconnect in opinion here if this is true. That's not to say the SoM stuff isn't worth more than feat (one would hope so, IMHO), only that I think you may be drastically underselling Spheres of Power.

    But getting back to the main point, I guess the issue from my point of view, is that Spheres of Power is already a stronger system than Spheres of Might. Or at least that's what I believe by directly comparing the two. Thus it's especially jarring to me that Spheres of Might is loosing out on the versatility of the Sphere Drawbacks. In Spheres of Power, if I didn't want a particular ability, there was always a drawback I could choose to get rid of it. But here, if I don't want a particular ability, my only choice to take the ability I don't want, or take another ability that I still may not want. Either way, it makes character creation more of a grab bag and less of a customization. It also differentiates my character less from other similar characters, since you can be sure that anyone who takes a sphere will definitely have either X ability, or Y ability. I can't help but feel that this subtracts from the system.

    And sure, each talent in SoM may grant you a new ability. But if all of the abilities are balanced against each other, then why does it matter if I get an ability I choose for myself or an ability that is already chosen for me? The idea of pre-chosen talents as a balancing tool really only makes sense if you admit that you are purposely choosing substandard talents for those drawbacks. But then, why would you have substandard talents in the first place? If substandard talents were created just as drawback fodder, then it would be easier to just not have drawbacks at all, and save on word count. Of course, I doubt that this conspiracy theory tangent is the actual case here. I'm sure you have access to tons of playtest data that I don't have, but if there was a problem wherein the presence of drawbacks somehow led to an abuse of the system, then please tell us specifically so we can better understand the reasoning for this decision and have a more productive discussion on how to move forward. Without that reasoning, it simply seems like an arbitrary way to limit player choice and freedom in order to preemptively solve a problem that many don't even know/think exists.

    Once more, I'd like to reiterate my love for both the Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might systems. I'm not complaining because I hate the system or it's developers. My only intention in writing out these long posts is to help the system be even better than it currently is. Drawbacks were one of my favorite things about the original Spheres of Power. Hearing that the current plan is to eliminate all player choice and variability from them is...disappointing, to say the least.

  27. - Top - End - #807
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    Legitimate concerns about the implementation of drawbacks in SoM have been brought up, both in relation to SoP and when looked at in a vacuum, and those concerns don't seem to have been addressed.
    "Haven't been addressed" and "weren't addressed the way someone wanted them" are two different things. Drawbacks having mandated talents was a result of extensive feedback and review; the drawbacks originally didn't have mandated talents but players brought up concerns accompanied by builds, we reviewed those, looked at multiple ways of addressing those issues, and settled on mandated drawbacks (there were almost no drawbacks at all), since we saw that that solution was capable of addressing all the outstanding issues that had been brought up without putting cumbersome or excessive hindrances on numerous spheres and talents.

    At best, those concerns have been met with the equivalent of, "it's for the best, we know what we're doing", but that kind of response doesn't provide any real answer. Please don't say that the decision was made for balance and to address potential problems without actually stating what those balances and problems actually are.
    The thing is, we have answered those questions, numerous times, starting with when people asked us why those limitations weren't in place. While we understand that you may not have read those questions and answers, there's a point where "We've been over this extensively" has to be enough, otherwise we're repeating ourselves over and over across multiple forums. There's not a wiki out there for "why we did things the way we did".
    For reference, the things we're limiting are 6+ hit combos as early as level 2 with drawback manipulation, level 3 wide area field wipes, and a number of other issues I don't have in front of me right now. These issues were created by drawbacks allowing accelerated access to options that were ultimately supposed to be compatible, but shouldn't have been possible to assemble that early on.

    Remember, we don't hear any of your internal discussions, we are only looking at the end result.
    There was a year long playtest where all of this was discussed. As I mentioned, the reason we knew to look into this was because a playtester caught it and brought it up in the forums. No one expects you to know what into every design decision, but at some point "We've looked into this and have verified as a team that it's the best decision" needs to be acceptable; we don't have the time to repeat these answers over and over, and they're "why" not "how" questions, which means inevitably that's going to lead to more questions and statements about how someone thinks it should be done. We don't have time for that. Ehn and I both explained why we made that decision. We don't have time to link fifty forum posts and review hundreds of hours of design threads for all of those reasons every time someone isn't happy with that answer.


    The end result is that talent stacking using drawbacks as was seen in SoP is impossible in SoM. You can only (functionally) get a single drawback in any given Sphere (otherwise you would exclude almost all of the content of said Sphere, the only exception being the Trap Sphere, where you could functionally get two and still be viable). The abuses that your team seem so wary of don't exist.
    Except they do. Because we've seen them. This is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part; you're comparing SoM to SoP in a way that we've said multiple times is incorrect. In SoP, gaining as many talents in a single sphere as fast as possible is a significant way to gain power, because each sphere is an island; it doesn't really cross over with other spheres. In SoM, every sphere is a link in a chain; they build off similar and often compatible triggers, creating an end result where having a shallow spread across multiple spheres is just as valid as dedicating to one sphere. This is entirely intentional and part of an over-arching design paradigm to make the widest number of character concepts possible, but it meant that certain dynamics, like drawbacks, when applied alongside the right martial traditions, opened up combos far too early. By choosing the talents, and types of talents, that were associated with drawbacks, we were able to provide another tool for character customization without that tool creating shortcuts to later game combos. We blocked off the shortcuts to those abuses (and there were more than a few) while leaving the majority of the structure intact. You can get 10 different talents across 5 different spheres with drawbacks, but since most abuses involved needing a particular martial tradition combined with a particular series of specific kinds of talents from a variety of spheres, the drawbacks won't shorten those roads and they'll still only be accessible according to the normal procurement rates.

    See my previous two posts on this page for why most of the current limitations don't work. Hearing that the teams response to criticism of the current limitations on SoM drawbacks is going to be adding even more limitations (instead of explaining/addressing the current issues) comes off as tone-deaf and... troubling.
    Unfortunately those arguments made fundamentally wrong assumptions. You assume we were trying to prevent SoP abuses; to the contrary we were addressing abuses unique to SoM that don't come into play at all in SoP.

    Again, this isn't to say that specific limitations can't work, some of the current ones do, but most don't. The reason why is something that needs to be discussed more openly than has been done so far.
    This wasn't some quiet, behind the scenes decision. Some individuals who brought it up here did so specifically because they are aware of the conversations that went into this and are hoping they can backdoor a change in here now that the conversation is half a year old. Just because you weren't there for it doesn't mean something isn't public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    However, in my view of a ideal game, there should be as little difference between the capabilities of a martial character and a caster character as possible.
    I don't know that we'd entirely agree with that statement. Our working premise is "assymetric balance". We're not just going to give you spell cards with the magic bits crossed out and replaced with "sword", "axe", or "kick", we tried to follow the natural flow of martial abilities into techniques and tricks that have a foundation in martial arts traditions, movies, cartoons, etc.

    And while the two systems have certainly made huge steps in the balancing between martial and caster, I don't think we can reasonably say that SoM martials are yet equivalent to SoP casters in terms of power or versatility.
    Take a step back and look at the two core rulebooks side-by-side. Set aside the issue with the Incanter being too dippable. Allow your martials legendary talents because you want them to be on par with casters. I would fundamentally disagree with you. A conscript can fly, swim, burrow, move and attack for significant result, debuff, AoE, and he can do whatever combination of those things you want to assemble at pretty similar markers to when the Incanter can, the raw versatility of the Alteration sphere not withstanding; the limit on traits means that while Alteration does allow for gaining certain arrays of options faster, it still can't put them all together until the conscript can too.

    The easiest way to prove this, is to simply look at the number of SoM Legendary Talents that are effectively replicated with SoP Base Spheres. If I want to raise an undead army, I could grab the Warleader Sphere and then take the Legendary Talent, Armies of the Dead, which has a BAB +6 prerequisite. Even then, I have to succeed on a Diplomacy check to raise the undead's attitude all the way to friendly, and all of that assumes that undead are even around for me to use Diplomacy with in the first place. Compare that to any Spheres of Power caster, who can simply take the Death Sphere. Sure there are limitations to the undead you create (mainly longevity), but the character concept of a necromancer is still functional.
    Warleader sphere isn't the Death sphere. If you could completely replace Death with Warleader, than we screwed up because now why take Death? Remember, Warleader gives tactics and shouts too, so it can buff your party members, debuff your allies, and it's going to make every single one of those undead better than they are base. Warleader may be a mediocre Death sphere, but it's a great Warleader sphere that allows you to do numerous things Death doesn't.

    Now make a real comparison. Instead of saying that the orange isn't as good at being an apple as the apple, be impressed that it can imitate an apple at all and look at what the actual apple is doing. Beastmastery is the proper analogue for Death if you're talking about raising undead, since they're both minionmancy spheres. Really dig into the Beastmastery sphere and see what's there, then compare that to the Death sphere. Then compare Beastmastery and Warleader together against Death and War.

    Spheres of Might isn't just Spheres of Power with the names changed. It's a new system that builds on the base rules and marries their strengths to the finesse and flexibility of the sphere system while shedding some of their weaknesses. An incanter teleports, the conscript backflips. The incanter throws a ball of fire, the conscript does a wide radius sweep with a longspear (or throws a vial of Imp. Alchemist's Fire).

    So when we compare the two systems directly, it's pretty clear which system has more "power." And this is before getting into stuff like the Life Sphere, for which there is no direct analogue in Spheres of Might. With this in mind, I have no idea how you can write off the abilities one obtains from Spheres of Power as "being worth a trait" and then directly say that the abilities one gains from Spheres of Might as "being worth a feat, or more." I fear there's a major disconnect in opinion here if this is true. That's not to say the SoM stuff isn't worth more than feat (one would hope so, IMHO), only that I think you may be drastically underselling Spheres of Power.
    Alteration is a fun sphere to draw comparisons to because it's so versatile, even you can't use it all at the same time. You can get a wide base but most of it is exclusionary. A conscript won't have to throw away his spear to fly once he learns how. He won't have to clip his wings to swim.

    But if all of the abilities are balanced against each other, then why does it matter if I get an ability I choose for myself or an ability that is already chosen for me?
    Because no martial talent exists in a vacuum. Finding particular types of talents across multiple spheres, such as talents that grant extra attacks or have compatible triggers, means that if you can assemble a shallow array of specific talents (which ones vary based on what you're trying to do) then you can create combos that are supposed to be naturally gated by speed of acquisition. 5 extra talents during the first few levels, especially certain combinations of talents across about half of the spheres, is really significant and can lead to things like massive multi-combos many levels before they're supposed to come online. When given the choice between drastically limiting character options or simply mandating talents for the drawbacks so that the combos couldn't be short cut too, we went with the mandatory talents. That leaves us the room to continue to add new drawbacks and talents while having a standard for what kind of talent is appropriate for a drawback and what isn't.

    We're not taking away choice; we're leaving the largest pool of choices we can while still avoiding extreme abuses of the system. Normalizing that across all drawbacks is in part to avoid having to have a conversation like this again, or risk a future freelancer not getting the memo on drawbacks and inadvertently opening a can of worms that forces a more intensive errata, like cutting the spheres off from each other and limiting the kind of talents we can add to various spheres. Our choices were make the spheres completely incompatible with each other and throw out dozens of cross-sphere character concepts, remove an entire swath of talents from about half of the spheres that were only problematic due to drawback abuse, put a gate on the drawbacks and specify which talents they grant so that we can avoid making the cross-sphere combos an issue in the first place, or just be cool with 5+ hit combos being a thing from level 1. Of all those, mandated talents on drawbacks was a clear winner.
    Last edited by Ssalarn; 2017-11-20 at 01:20 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #808
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Legendary Games
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    Perhaps it might be an idea to take a breath and step back for a min. No one is trying to heap abuse on you or anyone else. The post you replied to was trying to get a point across, and seemed to do it pretty well. You apparently see that point of view as being in opposition to your own but it is not an attack and it was not abusive. Legitimate concerns about the implementation of drawbacks in SoM have been brought up, both in relation to SoP and when looked at in a vacuum, and those concerns don't seem to have been addressed.

    At best, those concerns have been met with the equivalent of, "it's for the best, we know what we're doing", but that kind of response doesn't provide any real answer. Please don't say that the decision was made for balance and to address potential problems without actually stating what those balances and problems actually are. Remember, we don't hear any of your internal discussions, we are only looking at the end result. The end result is that talent stacking using drawbacks as was seen in SoP is impossible in SoM. You can only (functionally) get a single drawback in any given Sphere (otherwise you would exclude almost all of the content of said Sphere, the only exception being the Trap Sphere, where you could functionally get two and still be viable). The abuses that your team seem so wary of don't exist. See my previous two posts on this page for why most of the current limitations don't work. Hearing that the teams response to criticism of the current limitations on SoM drawbacks is going to be adding even more limitations (instead of explaining/addressing the current issues) comes off as tone-deaf and... troubling.

    Again, this isn't to say that specific limitations can't work, some of the current ones do, but most don't. The reason why is something that needs to be discussed more openly than has been done so far.
    Something I'd like to say here is that the team this time wasn't in love with every precedent that SoP sent. Yes, it did a lot of things right, but we had our own ideas for how to make things more internally consistent, which involved standardizing drawbacks in this way. Drawbacks are a VERY powerful option, and as we've seen, people are capable of utilizing them in ways we couldn't have expected before. Unlike what I assumed SoP had in mind when making them, the SoM team was well aware that we'd have expansions, and because of that, hard locking drawbacks the way that we have secures us from not needing to worry about new talents that possibly break with these drawbacks. The team knows that we won't be working on every future supplement, so while we can ensure that the base drawbacks are fair for core SoM, we can't plan for every possible future book, and because of that, talent locking drawbacks felt like a way to make sure these drawbacks don't eventually become the backbone of breaking the system we've poured ourselves into. This opens the door for future books to include their own specific drawbacks which can be looked over in seclusion because we don't have to compare all the new options and everything else each time, which makes life easier for both our newer developers and the older staff in that we are capable of avoiding chimeric builds being overpowered (as well as we can at least) as well as allow for new specific drawbacks in newer books for new talents, which allows us to make sure our content is more balanced on your end as well as ours.

    Is it limiting? Yeah, and we're not 100% happy about that, but as we've learned through this project, we sometimes need certain things in place when creating something like SoM to make sure the entire book doesn't become "Oh, with this one combo, you can do a million damage, book's broken!", as that's something that we've seen far too often to other projects which were otherwise fine. So this is me as a developer telling all of you that these decisions were made both for the health of the base product as well as possible expansions since we need to look at the long game for things like this. Developing for this new system has been a joy, and we do thank every one of you for the feedback, and we'd like to ask that you trust us when we make decisions like this, as we're doing it to make sure we can put out the best product possible. We'll always try to be around when we can to answer questions, and we do accept that not everyone will enjoy this option, but this is the reason we've chosen to structure things like this.

  29. - Top - End - #809
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    So the idea is that there is, or perhaps may be in the future, some combination of talents whereby taking them together is unbalanced? Could you perhaps give an example?

    Even without the example though, locking drawbacks doesn't inherently fix that problem. It just slows it down. Rather than coming online at level 2, it'll come online at level 5, only with a bunch of extraneous abilities that the player might not want (which ironically hurts more than if it were in SoP precisely because SoM talents aren't meant to exist in a vacuum). And even then, there's always the Conscript, who'll likely still be able to pull it off at level 2 anyway, isn't there? Is it alright for the Conscript, but not for anybody else?

    I suppose there's no point in continuing this discussion if the decision is already made though. I'll just have to live with the disappointment until a Handbook comes out with more options, I suppose.
    Last edited by Kaouse; 2017-11-20 at 02:04 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #810
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaouse View Post
    So the idea is that there is, or perhaps may be in the future, some combination of talents whereby taking them together is unbalanced? Could you perhaps give an example?

    Even without the example though, locking drawbacks doesn't inherently fix that problem. It just slows it down. Rather than coming online at level 2, it'll come online at level 5, only with a bunch of extraneous abilities that the player might not want (which ironically hurts more than if it were in SoP precisely because SoM talents aren't meant to exist in a vacuum). And even then, there's always the Conscript, who'll likely still be able to pull it off at level 2 anyway, isn't there? Is it alright for the Conscript, but not for anybody else?
    The conscript is accounted for in our measures and his accelerated ability to acquire talents is balanced against the class features and options of the other classes. While he can assemble talents more quickly, mandated drawbacks threshold that to an appropriate level where it's competitive with the options the other classes have available.
    Pushing that combo from 2nd to 5th or 6th on the conscript means the conscript's combo is coming online around the same time other classes get their major boosters, the full spread of their class abilities, and or their extra attacks in a full attack. Pushing it to 7th-9th on the Blacksmith means his stronger class features are keeping pace with the Conscript's greater talent pool, and both baselines are within an acceptable variance of appropriate performance within those levels.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •