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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    The Guardian Naga is missing a period at the end of "they can spit it." Given that it's at the end of a rather skimpy paragraph, is it possible that some sentences got accidentally deleted?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The Guardian Naga is missing a period at the end of "they can spit it." Given that it's at the end of a rather skimpy paragraph, is it possible that some sentences got accidentally deleted?
    What are you referring to? I can't find any sentence ending with these words in either the d20srd or the MM description.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    What are you referring to? I can't find any sentence ending with these words in either the d20srd or the MM description.
    He's referring to your review post.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    He's referring to your review post.
    That explains it: missing sentences have been fixed.
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Deadly Spittle from Serpent Kingdoms gives you a 15' cone option for the poison, with no mention of a Reflex Save.

    15' cone, Fort DC19 (+stats, +Ability Focus making it hit Fort DC23-24 right off the bat) to poison with 1d10 CON damage at will?
    I could see a player riding through entire battles doing nothing but moving and spraying poison.

    Anything with Poison Use could also milk its own venom and apply them to arrows to make an archer with a built-in save-or-lose on every shot.


    ...my players are gonna hate me when I use these nagas.
    Last edited by J-H; 2017-06-04 at 03:47 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Naga (2)


    The other half of the MM's nagas.

    Spirit Naga

    Pictured above, these 9 HD monsters are similar to the dark version in a lot of ways. Their stats are probably slightly worse, as are their natural attacks, but they have a continuous charming gaze (not friendly, but that doesn't really matter) and the ability to add cleric (and Chaos domain, and Evil domain) magicks to their spells known.

    That said, giving +1 LA would make spirit nagas incapable of getting 9th-level spells, which as we've established before isn't really something any of the nagas deserve. +0 LA.

    Water Naga

    The only Neutral ones of the bunch. Water nagas are slower on land than the others, but can swim reasonably fast. They also have the best sorcerer casting in terms of HD, with CL 7 and as many hit dice. Their charisma is low compared to other nagas, though.

    The sorcerer casting equal to HD, combined with the reasonable stat boosts and poisonous bite, is enough for me to grant water nagas +1 LA. Do note that they can't breathe air without magical assistance, though.


    Night hags are next.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-06-05 at 04:41 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The other half of the PHB's nagas.
    It can't be a good sign if we're forgetting what book we're in a little more than halfway through the first one.
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    It can't be a good sign if we're forgetting what book we're in a little more than halfway through the first one.
    Fixed.
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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I agree with the LA on the water naga. Full casting on a RHD chassis is basically an automatic +1, at minimum.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    man i wish we have wingless liliends as naga instead of these overgrown cobras as monsters
    The original nāga were almost completely serpentine, with a few mentions of minor human-y traits (e.g. hair). So, point to D&D for mythological accuracy. Savor it—it's a pretty rare occurrence.
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    So, point to D&D for mythological accuracy. Savor it—it's a pretty rare occurrence.
    can I sig this?

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    Exclamation Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I agree with the LA on the water naga. Full casting on a RHD chassis is basically an automatic +1, at minimum.
    I tend to agree. Aberration HD are better than Sorcerer levels in terms of HD and BAB.

    Nagas gets boosts to most (all?) stats, including their primary casting stat.

    Then they get extra goodies on top (poison, natural AC bonus, better move speeds/modes etc.).

    Yes, sucks that you don't have limbs - you'll miss out on magic item slots and have trouble wielding items (although Arms of the Naga does what it says on the tin, once you can afford them).

    I couldn't give any of them less than LA +1 in good faith (maybe LA +2 for Water Nagas). If that means they miss out on 9ths, so be it. There's cheesy ways to still get 9ths (in limited supply) if you want them bad enough.
    Last edited by Thurbane; 2017-06-05 at 05:19 PM. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    can I sig this?
    Go right ahead. I'm glad someone else enjoyed that as much as I did.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    So, wait. The plan is to go through each and every monster in all of the Monsters Manuals and all of the other books in order to adjust their Level Adjustment?

    That is going to take a significant amount of time and I am going to put my full weight behind this whole heartedly.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Well, the first thread was started almost a year before this one and this one's been going two months already. :)

  16. - Top - End - #466

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Considering I haven't been on the forums for that length of time, I think I can be forgiven somewhat.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I think we can let you off, yes.

  18. - Top - End - #468
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Night Hag


    Night hags have 8 outsider HD (with surprisingly useful class skills), as well as the Evil subtype (making them possible Fiends of X). Their ability scores are almost all above average, with strength the highest. They also have a huge amount of natural armor, as well as spell resistance, DR/cold iron and magic, and a few random immunities. Chassis wise, it seems they're pretty comparable to many other evil outsiders.

    However, night hags are severely lacking when it comes to special abilities. Demon Fever is strong as far as diseases go, but still a disease, Dream Haunting is ridiculously weak, and the same goes for their SLAs (Sleep on a CR 9 monster, seriously?).

    Change Shape into any small or medium humanoid is slightly less underwhelming, though on a chassis as great as the night hag's I'm wondering how often it'll be useful for anything other than disguise.

    And than there's the heartstone. It's a minor magic item that requires a month to craft, gives immunity to disease and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws (together worth about 13400 GP in magic items), as well as the ability to use CL 16 Etherealness at-will.

    That. Is. Awesome. It allows you to bypass most, if not all barriers and monsters a mid-level party could reasonably expect, it makes for great spying, and the high CL ensures you can take up to five others with you. I'm not going to say it single-handedly saves the night hag, but it kind of does.

    With this taken into account, I think +3 is an entirely reasonable LA. Discuss.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-06-09 at 01:07 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #469

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Hmmmm +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, +4 Wisdom and +2 Charisma... not bad stats I have to admit. Plus it has +11 Natural Armour, Damage Reduction 10/Cold Iron and Magic, immunity to fire, cold, charm, sleep, and fear along with Spell Resistance of 25, which is 16+CR, or 17+HD depending on what your looking at. Also, whilst it is Medium size, it’s bite attack is 2d6 damage, through for some reason it only has 20ft movement speed, and speed is pretty critical at that stage

    Not to mention Outsider HD gives you full BAB and saves, along with 8 Skill Points per level... honestly I would put it at +2 Level Adjustment already, though I might be grossly overestimating how useful those abilities actually are compared to class features. The Heartstone however is incredibly powerful, and having unlimited access to Etherealness for the cost of 1800gp... I’m sorry, but that’s worth another Level Adjustment right there, maybe even to. So I would put the Level Adjust at +3 as a conservative estimate and +5 as a high estimate

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Heartstones are indeed fantastic, though I'm not totally sure if they warrant LA; it's an item, not a racial feature(admittingly, it's true that only Night Hags can make them outside of some serious cheese).

    Outsider HD are some of the best racial HD in the entire game, so that's a bonus.

    DR/cold iron and magic is going to be very hard to penetrate. It's not impossible, but barring the Mountain Hammer line and Foehammer, there aren't too many ways of doing that without directly aiming to make the Hag suffer(IC if not OOC). Of course, it's not perfect, but then what is?

    I'd say that +1 at absolute minimum, and +2 isn't so bad. +5 however is far too much.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Like I said, +5 is the absolute highest, and I am not actually expecting that to be taken.

    Whilst the Hearthstone is an item and not technically a racial feature, it's an item which only the hags can use at will, and likely only a hag knows how to make one as well. So I would say to count it as a racail feature when discussing LA, and I would count it as being worth LA+1

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Like I said, +5 is the absolute highest, and I am not actually expecting that to be taken.

    Whilst the Hearthstone is an item and not technically a racial feature, it's an item which only the hags can use at will, and likely only a hag knows how to make one as well. So I would say to count it as a racail feature when discussing LA, and I would count it as being worth LA+1
    On it's own, yes, but I don't think that each seperate advantage is worth a [u]cumulative[/i] +1 LA.
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  23. - Top - End - #473

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Personally, I think your underestimating the power of At-Will Etherealness

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Personally, I think your underestimating the power of At-Will Etherealness
    I think a +3 could be argued for reasonably. It's just that +5 is way overkill.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I'm conflicted on the Night Hag.

    While the at-will Detects are nice, and probably useful to a degree that varies by campaign (although at-will Detect Magic is pretty much guaranteed to be useful if there isn't a Warlock in the party) they're not going to impact LA any.
    Other than the Detects, there are only two useful abilities - the at-will Polymorph(self-only), although the 8HD cap isn't great, and the at-will Etherealness. Without these two, the Night Had would unquestionably be a -0. With the at-will self-only Polymorph, probably a strong +0 or +1 - at-will Polymorph is good, but the eternal 8HD cap isn't. The at-will Etherealness is also quite good ... but it's also applicable in relatively narrow ways, and is good for a strong +1 or a +2.

    Being an Outsider with the Evil subtype lets you access a few things. On the other hand, it also makes you vulnerable to more than a few things too.
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  26. - Top - End - #476
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I'm conflicted on the Night Hag.

    While the at-will Detects are nice, and probably useful to a degree that varies by campaign (although at-will Detect Magic is pretty much guaranteed to be useful if there isn't a Warlock in the party) they're not going to impact LA any.
    Other than the Detects, there are only two useful abilities - the at-will Polymorph(self-only), although the 8HD cap isn't great, and the at-will Etherealness. Without these two, the Night Had would unquestionably be a -0. With the at-will self-only Polymorph, probably a strong +0 or +1 - at-will Polymorph is good, but the eternal 8HD cap isn't. The at-will Etherealness is also quite good ... but it's also applicable in relatively narrow ways, and is good for a strong +1 or a +2.

    Being an Outsider with the Evil subtype lets you access a few things. On the other hand, it also makes you vulnerable to more than a few things too.
    Polymorph got errata'ed to Change Shape into any small or medium humanoid.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    (Sleep on a CR 9 monster, seriously?)
    Every time I see sleep as an SLA, I wonder if the designers remembered that it was HD-limited.

    With this taken into account, I think +2 is an entirely reasonable LA. Discuss.
    Which would put a base Night Hag at ECL 10. At that point, primary spellcasters have access to 5th-level spells; for clerics, that includes plane shift. It's hard to argue that any of the night hag's powers would be game-breaking in that context. (Well, more game-breaking than the rest of the party.) So as long as it isn't as powerful in combat as a typical 10th-level warrior guy on top of that, we should be fine.
    I decided to compare the 10th-level barbarian statistics in the DMG to the night hag's stats. (Both could be improved by a player with half a mind towards optimization, and I hope the inefficiencies and inbuilt weaknesses cancel each other out.) The night hag has higher AC (especially if it finds some armor), fewer hit points, a lower attack bonus, comparable damage, and better saving throws. If that was all, I could call it even; each has strengths and weaknesses, but the barbarian would probably win once it got its rage on (to say nothing of its other class features). But those class features pale to a night hag's special defenses. Immunity to a couple of common energy types, spell resistance, damage reduction? All of these, combined with the utility abilities makes it hard to see why I'd want to play a 10th-level barbarian instead of a night hag.

    +5 is another number I've seen thrown around; let's look at that. That would (obviously) put the night hag at ECL 13. Primary spellcasters have access to 7th-level spells; for wizards, that includes plane shift. (Hey, I didn't write this crap.) At-will etherealness, detect spells, magic missile, shapechanging, etc is useful, but the flexibility of a wizard with access to any seventh-level spell in their spellbook is also useful, and by 13th level even the warlock with his greater invocations will be rivaling the night hag's utility, and at will.
    But in combat? The DMG's 13th-level barbarian has almost twice the hit points and a higher AC (until the night hag finds some studded leather), two attacks with higher attack bonuses than the night hag's (and a third better than the hag's second), and a slightly higher Fortitude save if the night hag leaves her heartstone at home. The night hag still has better special defenses, but would lose even without the barbarian's rage.
    With an appropriate assortment of magic items (13th-level characters get 1100k gold), the night hag could probably compete...but it wouldn't be great at either combat or utility-magic, and would have relatively limited advancement opportunities. +5 is too high.

    I'd suggest something like +3 or +4.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Polymorph got errata'ed to Change Shape into any small or medium humanoid.
    Ah. Well ... that's a downgrade to not worth an LA modifier.

    The only real question is how much is at-will CL16 Etherealness worth?
    I'm going to agree with a softer +2. At-Will CL 16 Etherealness, while it does need to be taken into account, isn't going to break that much - most of the places it would break things to get access to with are going to be warded anyways.
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  29. - Top - End - #479

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post. I will have to keep in mind that compare a monster to a caster and more likely a barbarian under that ECL to see how they compare and line up with each other.

  30. - Top - End - #480
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post. I will have to keep in mind that compare a monster to a caster and more likely a barbarian under that ECL to see how they compare and line up with each other.
    And thank you for the kind words.
    For the record, I'd like to note that I compared it to a caster and a barbarian specifically because the night hag's two main strengths—magic and physical power—lined up with those classes.
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