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  1. - Top - End - #1141
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Is anyone else finding this thread intermittently having loading problems?

    It's happened at home and at work, so I don't think it's just my connection?
    Doesn't happen to me.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  2. - Top - End - #1142
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Yklikt View Post
    Um, I dont know what that is too. What is it
    looks at my username
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
    They're all just various spellings of the same word/concept.
    Dude, I'm right here. Try to show a little sensitivity to draconic races. You wouldn't say that Asians were all just variations of the same culture, would you?
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  3. - Top - End - #1143
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I bet Rakshasas are going to be +2.
    Rakasha's should honestly not be less than +4. Strongest race we have gotten so far.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Rakasha's should honestly not be less than +4. Strongest race we have gotten so far.
    And how many times as your view on the higher LEvel Adjustment ever been accepted over all?

    Not saying that you might be right... but a lot of people tend to shoot quite a lot lower than you when it comes to level adjustement.

  5. - Top - End - #1145
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Are we all done with the Worm/Wurm/Wyrm/Wirm roleplay drama?

    Great.

    == == ==

    Rkashasha

    Rakshasa are hella strong.

    Continuous detect thoughts.

    Unlike some other races, their SR explicitly increases -- it's "27 + class levels".

    Their DR is very specific and will frequently be relevant: DR 15/good and piercing is great.

    They have 7 HD and cast as level 7 Sorcerers. So take one level of Sorcerer, and go right into Abjurant Champion.

    They get a boost to all ability scores: +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.

    I could see them at LA +4, they're really quite good.

  6. - Top - End - #1146
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    We should maybe wait for Inevitability before debating the level adjustment of a monster.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Rakshasas are next!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    We should maybe wait for Inevitability before debating the level adjustment of a monster.
    Why wait for the Inevitable?

  8. - Top - End - #1148
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Why wait for the Inevitable?
    he is the only one decifing when next entrie comes
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  9. - Top - End - #1149
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Why wait for the Inevitable?
    If you don't wait for the inevitable and try to get out of it, then you might be faced down with an inevitable, and no-one wants that.

  10. - Top - End - #1150
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    And how many times has your view on the higher Level Adjustment ever been accepted over all?

    Not saying that you might be right... but a lot of people tend to shoot quite a lot lower than you when it comes to level adjustement.
    I could see them at LA +4, they're really quite good.
    Often enough

    he is the only one decifing when next entrie comes
    We are as such free to decide what we want to discuss here. It has politely been requested that monster entries are not made. But that does not get in the way of discussing what will come next.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-07-11 at 12:41 PM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Indeed. I'm probably not going to post the rakshasa until tomorrow, but that doesn't mean nobody gets to discuss it beforehand. In fact, such posts often help me look at the creature in new and useful ways.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Rakshasas ...

    Detect Thoughts - kind of meh, most of the time. Sure, you can go Mindspy with this, but Mindspy's not exactly that great an option anyways.

    Change Shape - useful, but not really worth an LA increase, as you're limited to humanoid forms only. And it's an invocation-equivalent ability.

    Racial Skills and skill bonuses - useful, but not worth any LA.

    Spellcasting as Sorcerer 7 - this functionally mandates LA of +1 or more.

    DR 15/Good and Piercing - this is pretty good. Although I feel like there's some sort of special circumstance relating to this that sucks hard. Something to do with Blessed Crossbow Bolts maybe?

    SR 27 + class levels. Scaling is good and it starts out high enough that it's going to take someone who pushed their CL/ability to overcome SR to reliably bypass it. Or someone relying on SR: No spells. On the other hand, it's also high enough that you'd need to drop it for an allied caster to buff, heal, or cleanse you of debuffs/negative ongoing effects.

    Good spread of racial ability modifiers, although none are particularly high.

    Base speed 40ft - good, but not really worth LA.

    Natural attacks, 2 primary 1d4 claws and a 1d6 bite secondary. Nice. Although they go away if you use Change Shape to take a humanoid form, and claws are inherently incompatible with using weapons.

    +9 natural armor bonus. This is good. But it's not super high - a druid or other shapeshifting caster could easily get an equal or greater amount with the right form choice. I'm unsure as to whether or not this would go away when using Change Shape.


    They've got very good defensive abilities, and solid social abilities. However, they don't get that much in the way of offense, outside of spellcasting.


    I'm inclined towards LA +2 or +3. The question is if the strength of their defensive abilities warrant loosing 9ths.
    I'm presently leaning towards "no, they don't", as the only abilities the Rakshasa LA +2 Sorcerer 11 has that the Sorcerer 20 wouldn't be able to acquire an equivalent capability to relatively easily is the Spell Resistance, and perhaps the DR. After all the Sorcerer 20 would have Wish, Shapechange, and a third 9th.
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  13. - Top - End - #1153
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Nifft already summed out their traits, i will just point out the major ones.
    It has outsider HD (best kind)
    It has sorcerer casting equal to its HD (already there will it need some LA)
    It has +6 Cha, that translates into +3 spell DC. And means that anything less than +6 LA will leave its spells harder to resist than the party sorcerers.
    It got whats likely the best DR in the MM, only rivaled by a Solar.

    And at base it got a freaking spell resistance of 27!
    Another level 7 sorcerer only beats that 5% of the time.
    A level 11 sorcerer got a 25% chance of beating it.

    So to sum it up, we got a monster here thats more or less specifically designed to take on the strongest type of opponents in the game. Other casters. It would only require a minimal investment for the Rakasha in increasing its own spell resistance, to get it up to a point where even boss level opponents wont beat it without serious cheese.
    And to deal with those spells that dont allow a save, the Rakasha both got outside HD and stat buffs to increase its saves, as well as its own spellcasting.

    So all in all i can see everything from +4 to +6 being reasonable. Mainly on the ground that even at base level a Rakasha compares favorably towards a level 11 sorcerer.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-07-11 at 03:34 PM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I'd rank a Rakshasa as at least +3, if not +4 LA. Compared to a Sorcerer of equal level:
    -Significant bonuses to all stats, specifically the +6 to Con and Charisma.
    -Outsider HD gives you a tiny bit more hp, full BAB and proficiencies from the Outsider type. You can go Gish right out the gate.
    -Huge boost to skills. Your list isn't really great, but with (8+Int) vs (2+Int), Rakshasa clearly wins that role.
    - +9 Nat armor is not the worst thing for an arcane caster to have. Plus it saves on needing to know/cast a spell.
    - Natural attacks are pretty much negligible.
    - Detect Thoughts is nice, but just as an added treat. Change Shape is decent if you do intrigue/cloak and dagger type stuff.
    - Spells are the big feature. You do everything exactly as a Sorcerer of your level would do. This is the biggest draw for the race.
    - Your DR is very unlikely to be overcome unless your DM likes throwing celestials armed with spears at you, so always shaving off 15 damage is great. Between all good saves and a scaling SR, you've got a solid defense against magic.

    A Rakshasa is just Sorcerer+, with more skill points and everything needed to be a natural gish.
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  15. - Top - End - #1155
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It has outsider HD (best kind)
    Aside: I've always wondered why outsiders were universally agreed to have superior hit dice to dragons. I might be biased (sorry, Nifft), but it seems like a couple hit points one way and a couple skill points the other should at the very least be contested. (I'd think that HP would be more useful for most characters.)

    It has +6 Cha, that translates into +3 spell DC. And means that anything less than +6 LA will leave its spells harder to resist than the party sorcerers.
    A point or two of DC is a 5-10% change in probability. That doesn't seem like it's worth raising the LA too much for.

    And at base it got a freaking spell resistance of 27!
    That might be. But is it worth losing 2-3 spell levels? (It's definitely worth losing one, no need to check on that.)

    The rakshasa has access to detect thoughts; so do sorcerers by that level, but the rakshasa doesn't have to spend a spell-known slot or spell slots on it. (And it's at CL 18, not that that seems to matter at all.) Another low-level spell rakshasas don't have to take is alter self, which is useful for a high-Cha guy with Bluff and Disguise as class skills...which the rakshasa is. It also has impressive defenses (SR, DR, natural armor, more hit points than a typical caster). Throw in above-average ability scores and natural weapons, and you have a solid chassis. At almost any level, the rakshasa's Charisma and magical abilities will make it a social ac, while its defenses render it...not untouchable, not invincible, but certainly less touchable or vincible than most party members. Outside social situations, it "has" to rely on its spells.

    A rakshasa's best spells will be the likes of fireball, blink, and suggestion. At +2 LA, the rakshasa has to compete with sorcerers who have access to dimension door, greater invisibility, and polymorph. At +4, rivals have lesser planar binding, shadow evocation, and dominate person. At +6, they have mass suggestion, flesh to stone, and true seeing. I would argue for +2/+4 before +4/+6.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Aside: I've always wondered why outsiders were universally agreed to have superior hit dice to dragons. I might be biased (sorry, Nifft), but it seems like a couple hit points one way and a couple skill points the other should at the very least be contested. (I'd think that HP would be more useful for most characters.)
    I think the big reason people rank Outsider over Dragon is the "Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry." part of the description. Getting extra skills and possible armor proficiency is nice too.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Count me as another vote for LA+4. I believe the Rakshasa is roughly power-equivalent (albeit in different ways) with the Nymph.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I'd say +2. Outside of its spellcasting, it has mostly defensive traits. These are nice, but D&D is a proactive game. Not dying is just not that impressive or useful, and nothing it gets is worth giving up 9ths.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Not dying may not be flashy, but it is very useful. Practical immunity to other casters (not to mention most martial characters too) is worth the four levels of casting. Being able to cast 3rd-level spells that work is far more useful than being able to cast 5th-level ones which don't.

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    tongue Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Rakshasas have innate casting, therefore their LA should be lower.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Not dying may not be flashy, but it is very useful. Practical immunity to other casters (not to mention most martial characters too) is worth the four levels of casting. Being able to cast 3rd-level spells that work is far more useful than being able to cast 5th-level ones which don't.
    It's hardly practical immunity to casters and most martials.

    There are plenty of SR: No and/or indirect action spells (summons) out there, and every combat caster worth a damn has both. Especially since the Rakshasa has no energy resistances or immunities.

    DR 15/Good and Piercing is pretty good, but it's hardly anything like immunity to most "martial characters". Especially since the Rakshasa has no Fast Healing or Regeneration.



    The Rakshasa has no active abilities other than sorcerer casting, and whatever it gains from class levels. Its abilities that matter are largely passive defensive abilities.

    The Rakshasa has good passive defenses, but they're not worth giving up all 9ths, IMO. The Rakshasa LA 2 Sorcerer 11 has one 9th level spell. The Sorcerer 20 probably has Wish, Shapechange, and a third 9th level spell.
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  22. - Top - End - #1162
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Aside: I've always wondered why outsiders were universally agreed to have superior hit dice to dragons. I might be biased (sorry, Nifft), but it seems like a couple hit points one way and a couple skill points the other should at the very least be contested. (I'd think that HP would be more useful for most characters.)
    Well yeah, in general i do think they are more or less equal. The main swinger though is that Outsider HD comes with the outsider type. And all the shape-changing shennanigangs that unlocks.

    A point or two of DC is a 5-10% change in probability. That doesn't seem like it's worth raising the LA too much for.
    It is purely on its own merit ground for raising LA though. In a lot of cases going from Save-or Suck to Save-or-Lose to Save-or-Die is pretty academic.
    And it is not just a point or two. Its at the very least 3 points, and in some cases 4 because the Rakasha with its general stat buffs can better afford to focus 100% on maxing initial charisma.
    Also, a +3 to spell DC can have a massive impact. Its the jump from 50% saves to suddenly only 35 doing so. Thats a 30% increase in effectivity.

    That might be. But is it worth losing 2-3 spell levels? (It's definitely worth losing one, no need to check on that.)
    Its just another gigantic cherry on top of that massive sunday you already need 2 hands to carry.

    The rakshasa has access to detect thoughts; so do sorcerers by that level, but the rakshasa doesn't have to spend a spell-known slot or spell slots on it. (And it's at CL 18, not that that seems to matter at all.) Another low-level spell rakshasas don't have to take is alter self, which is useful for a high-Cha guy with Bluff and Disguise as class skills...which the rakshasa is. It also has impressive defenses (SR, DR, natural armor, more hit points than a typical caster). Throw in above-average ability scores and natural weapons, and you have a solid chassis. At almost any level, the rakshasa's Charisma and magical abilities will make it a social ac, while its defenses render it...not untouchable, not invincible, but certainly less touchable or vincible than most party members. Outside social situations, it "has" to rely on its spells.
    Thats the whole point though, in like 95% of all situations, the full casters that people who eagerly worships has to rely on their spells.
    And the Rakasha is a full caster with a char bonus, thats also a social ace, a respectable Gish and likely the toughest party member by far.
    The last bit is important, im rather certain its not possible to make something more survivable than a basic PC Rakasha at level 11.

    A rakshasa's best spells will be the likes of fireball, blink, and suggestion. At +2 LA, the rakshasa has to compete with sorcerers who have access to dimension door, greater invisibility, and polymorph. At +4, rivals have lesser planar binding, shadow evocation, and dominate person. At +6, they have mass suggestion, flesh to stone, and true seeing. I would argue for +2/+4 before +4/+6.
    Blink is also insanely good though, it turns attempt at harming the Rakasha from frustrating to *Flips table*
    And there are also other hidden gems like Blindness, now with even more brutal DC, or Vampyric Touch, because the only thing more frustrating than an opponent you have to grind down slowly, is one that heals itself.

    I'd say +2. Outside of its spellcasting, it has mostly defensive traits. These are nice, but D&D is a proactive game. Not dying is just not that impressive or useful, and nothing it gets is worth giving up 9ths.
    Not dying is actually extremely useful, since being dead keeps you from doing anything else. And giving up on 9th level spells hardly matters if your never going to play long enough to get those. The survey i saw on this subject said that most d&d games take place in the 6-13 range. Anyone that can back this up?

    It's hardly practical immunity to casters and most martials.

    There are plenty of SR: No and/or indirect action spells (summons) out there, and every combat caster worth a damn has both. Especially since the Rakshasa has no energy resistances or immunities.
    Guess what spells the Rakasha can focus its own spells on protecting it from though?
    And besides summons are you going to use against the Rakasha? Forget about One spell protecting from the majority of them, what Summon Monster 5 or less spell would you count on taking a Rakasha down before its duration ran out?
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-07-11 at 05:30 PM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    A wizard's CR doesn't increase because he chose "good" spells to use against the PCs, so a rakshasa's LA shouldn't increase because he uses the same spells to protect himself.

    Tieflings, aasimar and genasi are also all native outsiders, as are those with that specific sun elf racial feat from PGoF. Besides, if someone already has native Tier 2 casting, worrying about what they can change themselves into because they're not of the humanoid type seems to be overstating the issue a little.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2017-07-11 at 05:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Yeah, +4 minimum. You can eat a dragon's full attack and barely be scratched by it, you are nigh invulnerable to casters, you got good BAB, all good saves, a ton of NA, sorcerer casting equal to your Outsider HD...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    With a +4 LA, a rakshasa has +7 BAB at ECL 11, which is one point less than Medium BAB. It gets worse from there when they of course take sorcerer class levels.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Most gish PrCs either lose caster levels or have medium BAB. They have extraordinarily good defenses, I'll give you that, but honestly that and the Outsider type are the main selling points, not the BAB.

    I'm honestly going with a +2, since otherwise you don't get 9ths non-epic. However, if someone can convince me that the defenses are worth losing 9ths, then I might agree with a +3 or +4.

    No way I'm ever going over that, though, because they're not worth losing 8ths as well.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Friendly reminder that levels other than 20th exist. Although as a professional truenamer I may wish they didn't...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Friendly reminder that levels other than 20th exist. Although as a professional truenamer I may wish they didn't...
    Admittingly, having spells delayed that much is still a problem before 20th level. Getting Teleport around the time when everyone gets the Greater version is not fun.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Admittingly, having spells delayed that much is still a problem before 20th level. Getting Teleport around the time when everyone gets the Greater version is not fun.
    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.

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    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    NC, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
    can I sig this?
    Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhiadem! Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!

    Amazing avatar by Linklele

    Extended Sig

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    Oh wadda you know Gary, you're just a baby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    It's all fun and games until you encounter the roc weremegalodon

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