The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Agahnim]

Again, you don't have to craft your phylactery at level 11. As you gain more levels beyond 11, your WBL allows you to buy all those "essential" items on top of the phylactery, which becomes a far better deal.
As for the usefulness of the lich's various abilities, it is obviously subjective, although I suspect that the GitP community (no offense) is too used to optimization to see use in suboptimal bonuses and abilities. If I was an arcane spellcaster, I'd be glad to have a super nasty paralysing touch to get rid of any beatstick coming my way (inb4 "don't let them reach you in the first place"). The diversity of mental stat boosts ensures that your main casting stat is increased, regardless of how you got to CL 11. The only thing that isn't very useful is the fear aura, but it is good for flavor and can apparently be traded away for the ability to be a non-evil lich.
Forgot to mention : to become a lich you must get Craft wondrous, which is going to make up for the 120K pretty fast - even faster for a PC lich, who can craft for her party.
TL;DR : just because every toy the lich gets isn't tailored for one particular specialty doesn't mean they aren't an excellent package, provided you keep a bit of gold to buy basic items beside your phylactery

[Inevitability]

As for the usefulness of the lich's various abilities, it is obviously subjective, although I suspect that the GitP community (no offense) is too used to optimization to see use in suboptimal bonuses and abilities. If I was an arcane spellcaster, I'd be glad to have a super nasty paralysing touch to get rid of any beatstick coming my way (inb4 "don't let them reach you in the first place").

We're talking 'level 11 or above arcane caster' here. You can't just assume a cleric (or even a wizard) will be helpless the moment someone gets within 5 ft. of them. That's not 'GitP being used to optimization', it's basic logic. Even a caster who only picked blasting can just step back, maybe eat an AoO, then Cone of Cold their foe.

The only thing that isn't very useful is the fear aura, but it is good for flavor and can apparently be traded away for the ability to be a non-evil lich.

Call me a dirty munchkin, but I've never felt like an creature's flavor should affect its LA.

Forgot to mention : to become a lich you must get Craft wondrous, which is going to make up for the 120K pretty fast - even faster for a PC lich, who can craft for her party.

You did not just present a subpar prerequisite as an advantage.

At best, Craft Wondrous Item is something you'd have picked up anyway (not true for most casters). It is not, and will never be, a reason to become a lich, because becoming a lich is not required for using it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

None of those items require you to become undead, nor do they cost points of level adjustment, in addition to their GP cost.

Being undead isn't all bad. And more importantly, the level adjustment is the balancing cost. Lichdom costs some gold and also some LA for more benefits than you would get from just that amount of gold.

A level 11 lich has to spend their entire WBL for their phylactery.

Um...you have to be at least 11th level to become a lich, not exactly 11th level. There's a bit of a difference.

[Agahnim]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?

[khadgar567]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?

I think forum has no problem with feat called craft munchkin gear the problem is we cant peg LA for template and agree with it.

[Inevitability]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?

It's not bad, but it's definitely not the mandatory pick for each wizard everywhere you're implying it is.

[RedWarlock]

I don't think the WBL should affect the adjustment here. Considering how much shenanigans one can exert, the fact that you can do this well above that level, to the fact that many DMs may just roll Lich on into acceptable backstory and just waive the 'fee' as it were.

You have to compare the raw capabilities of a level X caster, vs a level X Lich caster, regardless of that X being an 11, a 15, or a 19. WBL will catch itself back up. Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?

[Remuko]

Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?

Well I do remember Inevitibility mentioning mouthpicks a lot for monsters and maybe non-humanoid armor at least once, so yeah it seems like it is also being factored in.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well I do remember Inevitibility mentioning mouthpicks a lot for monsters and maybe non-humanoid armor at least once, so yeah it seems like it is also being factored in.

Mouthpicks were mentioned as a way to expand their offensive abilities beyond what would be obvious, not as a monster tax. I don't remember non-humanoid armor ever being mentioned.

[Celestia]

I don't think the WBL should affect the adjustment here. Considering how much shenanigans one can exert, the fact that you can do this well above that level, to the fact that many DMs may just roll Lich on into acceptable backstory and just waive the 'fee' as it were.

You have to compare the raw capabilities of a level X caster, vs a level X Lich caster, regardless of that X being an 11, a 15, or a 19. WBL will catch itself back up. Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?

If the DM waives the gp cost, then that is clearly a house rule, and this thread has never accounted for that. By RAW, you must spend 120,000 gp to become a lich.

[TotallyNotEvil]

OTOH, I can't see a DM not letting you just Quest for your phylactery.

[No brains]

Would the LA be any different for a level 20 Dread Necromancer? I think they get the phylactery for free, but they've given up (very versatile) 9th level spells and many class features become redundant. I feel like in that case the template might be -0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would the LA be any different for a level 20 Dread Necromancer? I think they get the phylactery for free, but they've given up (very versatile) 9th level spells and many class features become redundant. I feel like in that case the template might be -0.

I'm not sure the question makes any sense. How do you assign LA to a class feature? I mean, from a DN 19's perspective, DN 20 is a good level (doubling up on immunities protects against grave strike, for example), and why would you evaluate DN 20 from any other position? It certainly doesn't make sense to call DN 20 "LA -0" because it's suboptimal for a wizard 10 to start theurging.

If you're asking whether a DN should get LA for becoming a lich, my opinion is no, they shouldn't.

[Inevitability]

Lillend

Lillends are art-loving celestial snake-people that, like so many other monsters, are mentioned only in passing in other books. That's a pity, because they are actually pretty interesting.

The chassis is pretty good. 7 outsider HD, between +4 and +10 to every stat, a reasonable fly speed, reach, some natural armor, and a single natural attack (though a very uncommon one).

Constrict and Improved Grab imply a lillend would make a good grappler. The second ability's wording is weird, though, as removing one's ability to take move (and therefore full-round) actions is generally bad.

Bard casting is bard casting. It's initially at CL 6, but getting 6th-level spells shouldn't be an issue. Note that lillends have the skills to enter quite a few bard-specific PrCs. They're only a single bard level away from entering Sublime Chord: less if you can somehow manage to get 3rd-level slots.

The SLAs are mostly low-level utility, half of which the lillend already has by virtue of its bard casting. Note that a lillend also has everything from Inspire Courage to Suggestion in terms of bardic music, allowing it to qualify for several classes and feats without dipping bard.

I think +2 LA is fine here. Lillends will still get 6th-level spells with it (or 9ths if they got SC), while somewhat curbing the advantage of a better chassis and combat ability compared to other bards. Feel free to give your opinion!

[khadgar567]

I forgot we have liliends thoug +2 looks like good but again like succubus i rather give them +0 so they feel more play able

[Agahnim]

+2 is very reasonable for those stat increases and sweet, sweet outsider HD. You can go SC, but also play a martial character thanks to the stats and full BAB. And you get even more skill points than an actual bard!
Also you look awesome IMO :)

[Caelestion]

The chassis is pretty good: the lillend is chaotic good.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I feel that's a very upper end +2, but not quite +3. +10 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha.

That's a lot. Then flight, Ousider HD, sixth level bard casting, Large size...

Ok, maybe +3 is called for. It's still within the realm of buy-off.

How would a vanilla level 10 bard compare to a Liliend?

[Troacctid]

Maybe a better comparison is a Gloura, an existing +2 LA monster with Bard casting.

[Celestia]

Ok, maybe +3 is called for. It's still within the realm of buy-off.

No it isn't. RHD don't count. You'd buy off the first one at level 16, ECL 19. Then you're done until epic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

OTOH, I can't see a DM not letting you just Quest for your phylactery.

If a DM decides to bend the rules for lichery, I don't see why they'd want rules for its LA. That's why these assignments are so focused on the rules; level adjustment is just a rule, based on how the monster's rules affect other rules, letting still other rules be appropriately adjusted in response.

[Inevitability]

Lizardfolk

Apologies for the recent post-sparsity.

Lizardfolk are another of those low-HD humanoid races, with 2 humanoid hit dice (ugh). They enjoy bonuses to strength and constitution, which are partially compensated by an intelligence penalty. Lizardfolk also have a remarkably large natural armor bonus, exceeding the one possessed by monitor lizards and crocodiles.

Furthermore, lizardfolk have proficiency with simple weapons and shields, get a racial bonus on three uninteresting skills (which are also their only class skills), and have three natural weapons. Kobolds are still better at precision damage-stacking, and darfellan at adding bites to your two-handed attacks.

Lizardfolk support is nonexistent. The closest thing is Dauntless, but that can be selected by several other races as well and is arguably worse than the feat it's supposed to replace.

Considering the lack of exclusive abilities and inferiority to most default options, I think a LA of -0 is justifiable here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I played a lizardfolk with no RHD or LA as a test and it still felt underwhelming. -0 is totally deserved.

[bekeleven]

They (along with many other races) arguably qualify for Hexer!

[Inevitability]

Locathah

More never-used 2 HD humanoids, now with horrifying features!

The Locathahs' racial traits are small bonuses to a few of the less-used abilities, a moderately high swim speed, +3 natural armor, the aquatic subtype, and... well would you look at that, no more racial traits.

I'm serious: that's it. The two levels every locathah sacrifices are supposed to be compensated by weak stat boosts and an inability to function on dry land. In no way is this worth it at +0 LA, let alone the +1 it currently has.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Apologies for the recent post-sparsity.

C'est la vie.

Lizardfolk are another of those low-HD humanoid races, with 2 humanoid hit dice (ugh).

You think high-HD humanoids would be better?

More never-used 2 HD humanoids, now with horrifying features!

Hey, I used locaths! As a DM. Once or twice. I think.
...Okay, yeah, I see your point.

They (along with many other races) arguably qualify for Hexer!

This Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.

[MesiDoomstalker]

C'est la vie.


You think high-HD humanoids would be better?


Hey, I used locaths! As a DM. Once or twice. I think.
...Okay, yeah, I see your point.



This Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.

I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.

[Inevitability]

I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.

Nope! Even the storm-themed domains have other lightning spells instead.

[danielxcutter]

...I've heard about Hexer a lot, but just what is it?

[thoroughlyS]

This Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.

I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.

Nope! Even the storm-themed domains have other lightning spells instead.

To be fair, a lizardfolk shugenja (Complete Divine p.10) can get into hexer at the same level as an adept (namely 10th), and can finish with 9th level spells. They do need to take a feat to pick up Survival as a class skill, but that is hardly "significant cheese".

Same story with the locathah.