Locating Invisible Bob Who Isn't Hiding

[lperkins2]

There are a couple of things i would want to point out:

3b: Errata changed it from "can see you" to "can see you clearly". Ihmo, it underlines the necessity of a DM judging the situation via the removal of a strict prerequisite for a more "open to interpretation" one. In short, you do not strictly need to be unseen to hide. You just need to be unrecogniz(ed/able).

Oh good point, not sure how I missed that when I read the errata.

3d: "Breaking cover": I do understand what you mean. I wouldn't have used those words. Can't find anything better than "if you leave your hiding spot", but that's pretty much repeating what is written, more or less.

It isn't leaving your hiding spot, although you are correct that breaking cover doesn't really do it either. It is if you are no longer lightly or heavily obscured. I mention breaking cover because what is obscuring you is often bushes, barrels, or similar things which partially or completely break line of sight to you. If you move out from behind them, you are no longer lightly obscured and thus are no longer hidden.

9 to 10: I would also have underlined that improvising action has some requirements, one of which is the non-existance of other similar actions already described. But it's probably not really needed.

I had considered including it, and will since you mention it, but I can't see a way that improvising an action has anything to do with stealth.

Page 182, section "Stealth" tells how to manage travel time stealth.

Page 189, section "Surprise", is the PHB version of DMG 243, abridged.

That is true, I mostly included it for completeness. Except for the start of combat, when two groups first encounter each other, it has no impact on stealth-in-combat.

3.b Not make noise, as making noise immediately give one location's away

This is true, but how much noise is permitted is never specified. The examples for what breaks stealth are fairly loud. For stealth to be at all useful, breathing must be quiet enough to not auto-break. What, between breathing and shouting, is loud enough to reveal you is DM dependent.

9. The fact of hiding (or attempting to hide) in combat requires the Hide action, which follows the normal rules for hiding.

This is not correct. The Hide action in combat gives you the benefits listed in the unseen attacker section (#11 in my list). Nothing in the section on the hide action (#9), nor the section on how the hiding contest is performed (#3) specify that a creature which has not taken the Hide action is not hidden. If anyone has anything to the contrary, please tell me which of the entries in my list is wrong, or give a page reference that says you must use the Hide action in order to be hidden (unseen and unheard).

Note that you can have to use Dexterity (Stealth) for other things, at DM request (such as walking quietly), the same as you would make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to move at full speed across a narrow bridge, without taking an action.

[DivisibleByZero]

Nothing in the section on the hide action (#9), nor the section on how the hiding contest is performed (#3) specify that a creature which has not taken the Hide action is not hidden.

This is the thing that confuses people.
They're used to 3.5 & 4e, where everything was spelled out in detail in the rules, and there were rules for every little thing you could think of.
So they don't realize that sometimes, a thing can be hidden from you in the plain English sense, without being *Hidden* from you, in the rules terminology sense.
They only see the rules terminology, and don't even think of the plain English meaning.
Basically, they don't understand that a person (or a thing) can be hidden from you without taking the Hide action to become *Hidden* from you. They can't separate the two. But the two are indeed separate.

[Corran]

It isn't automatic, and "can be detected" expresses possibility.
So you may or may not know where he is. DM's call, both on whether it's possible and what rolls, if any, are required.
But you do not just know where he is. Not unless the DM tells you that you do.

It is up to the DM to decide if the invisible target satisfies the unheard condition, without taking any action to hide himself.

So, for example, if invisible Bob who is not taking an action to hide, is within the radius of a silence spell, then Alice cannot locate his square.

If invisile Bob is not taking an action to hide, and there is enough noise (DM's discretion) to make him satisfy the unheard condition, then Alice cannot pinpoint his square.

If invisible BoB is not taking an action to hide (stay still, or however else you fluff it), and thus he is not satisfying the unheard condition, then Alice notices him (yeah, it can make no sense sometimes and it can be houseruled, but that's the RAW of it).
*If Bob is enganging himself in an activity that wouldn't make a lot of noise yet he is not taking the hide action (eg invisible Bob is sleeping), then either have him roll a stealth check, or take a ''passive'' stealth check result, or at DM's discretion he is noticed (due to snoring?) or unoticed. My point is how DM rules on if Bob satisfies the unheard condition, but that's not RAW.

During a fight, some DM's might rule that combat create enough noise for Bob to satisfy the unheard condition without hiding, other DM's might not. Personaly, unless there is an especially loud effect (Banshee's wail, thunderous smite, significant environmental noise, etc), I would hesitate to have invisible Bob who is not hiding satisfy the unheard condition. That meshes better with how senses are supposed to work during combat (like being aware what's happening all around you), and makes for faster and easier combat resolution (as do stuff, like applying your shield bonus against enemies atacking you from the back, 5e is all about simplifying stuff like that, perhaps at the expense of a more realistic approach). And knowing the square, is not necessarily equal to knowing the exact position, and the disadvantage on attacks can be partially explained as guessing Bob's exact location (not square). Also, makes invisibility less OP and as I said earlier, makes combats smother and faster.

[Unoriginal]

This is not correct. The Hide action in combat gives you the benefits listed in the unseen attacker section (#11 in my list).

It's covered afterward. Point 9 is about how you do the Hide action, not the benefits.

Nothing in the section on the hide action (#9), nor the section on how the hiding contest is performed (#3) specify that a creature which has not taken the Hide action is not hidden. If anyone has anything to the contrary, please tell me which of the entries in my list is wrong, or give a page reference that says you must use the Hide action in order to be hidden (unseen and unheard).

You can be *unseen* and not hidden. They're two different things. If you want to be unseen and unheard while other people can see or hear you, then you have to roll for Stealth. If you're invisible and still don't want to be heard, you still have to roll for Stealth.

If you're both invisible and made entirely silent, then you don't have to roll for Stealth unless the circumstances make that the people present can still perceive you one way or another.


Someone who is not trying to hide gets noticed as soon at they're looked at or heard distinctly enough. If a Gnoll is outside your vision field, but you can still hear them eat their latest prey, you'll still know where they are. Same thing if an invisible Gnoll was eating inside your vision field.

Basically, they don't understand that a person (or a thing) can be hidden from you without taking the Hide action to become *Hidden* from you. They can't separate the two. But the two are indeed separate.

Really? Please explain how they are separate, since you are so knowledgeable on the subject.

Unless you're talking about someone who made undetectable by any of the main senses, in which case no one is contesting that they'd be undetectable.

Note that the "or a thing" part is handled by the "Hidden Item" rules.

[DivisibleByZero]

If invisible BoB is not taking an action to hide (stay still, or however else you fluff it), and thus he is not satisfying the unheard condition, then Alice MIGHT* notice(s) him (yeah, it can make no sense sometimes and it can be houseruled, but that's the RAW of it).

FIFY, as per JC's ruling.
And no, that isn't the RAW of it.
Remember, it isn't automatic.
People apparently prefer to read it that way, but JC has said that reading it that way is wrong.

[Unoriginal]

FIFY, as per JC's ruling.
And no, that isn't the RAW of it.
Remember, it isn't automatic.
People apparently prefer to read it that way, but JC has said that reading it that way is wrong.

He was talking about invisibility as a whole, not about someone not trying to hide

[Corran]

FIFY, as per JC's ruling.
Remember, it isn't automatic.

I disagree with you on that, and I think you are misinterpreting Crawford's answer on that.
I think the RAW are simple enough on that, meaning that if you do not satisfy the unheard condition while invisible (which is not always the same as taking the hide action, granted), your location is known. Simple as that. Is it not so?

The not automatically detected part imo refers to the possibility of satisfying or not the being unheard clause. If this is specified, then the probability of having your location revealed is either 1 (not unheard) or 0 (unheard).

[DivisibleByZero]

He was talking about invisibility as a whole, not about someone not trying to hide

If someone were trying to hide, then the question becomes irrelevant.

If someone is invisible, are they automatically detected but those other senses? The entire idea is predicated upon not specifically trying to hide. If they were specifically trying to hide, then it's a straight up opposed roll (or passives).
So once again, if someone is invisible, are they automatically detected but those other senses?
JC says No.
DM Fiat time. Just like pretty much every aspect of stealth in 5e. This is by design.

[Corran]

If someone were trying to hide, then the question becomes irrelevant.

If someone is invisible, are they automatically detected but those other senses? The entire idea is predicated upon not specifically trying to hide. If they were specifically trying to hide, then it's a straight up opposed roll (or passives).
So once again, if someone is invisible, are they automatically detected but those other senses?
JC says No.

Correct.
Why?
Because they can be unheard despite not taking the hide action to hide.
If they are not unheard, then their square is known.

[Cybren]

Correct.
Why?
Because they can be unheard despite not taking the hide action to hide.
If they are not unheard, then their square is known.

That doesn't follow, for one thing, auditory processing can pick up information without pinpointing it, and for another "square" holds no rules meaning.

[Tanarii]

This is the thing that confuses people.
They're used to 3.5 & 4e, where everything was spelled out in detail in the rules, and there were rules for every little thing you could think of.
So they don't realize that sometimes, a thing can be hidden from you in the plain English sense, without being *Hidden* from you, in the rules terminology sense.
They only see the rules terminology, and don't even think of the plain English meaning.
Basically, they don't understand that a person (or a thing) can be hidden from you without taking the Hide action to become *Hidden* from you. They can't separate the two. But the two are indeed separate.

Define *Hidden*. Because in game terms it means 'a creature that has successfully attempted hiding (plain English)'.

IMO what people are 'confusing' is that Hidden doesn't mean 'only way to prevent automatic detection'. What it means is 'intentionally making it so you will not be detected without further action'. When you don't have the Hidden status, you can still be 'not noticed' or 'unobserved' or 'overlooked' or a number of other things. IMO Trying to call stuff that isn't *Hidden* instead plain English 'hidden' is just confusing.

However, it is a fact that the game has multiple ways to resolve *Hidden* (which AFAIK isn't actual a game term at all). Hidden objects use a Perception vs fixed DC. Traps / Secret Doors specify Passive Perception vs fixed DC (in the DMG). Creatures start Hiding by rolling Stealth vs Passive. So even as a 'game term' it doesn't just mean one thing.

/ramble /pedantic /nitpicking /notreallydisagreeingonanythingimportanttothedebate

[DivisibleByZero]

Define *Hidden*. Because in game terms it means 'a creature that has successfully attempted hiding (plain English)'.

<snip>

/ramble /pedantic /nitpicking /notreallydisagreeingonanythingimportanttothedebate

How about this?

First link:
adjective
1. kept out of sight; concealed.

Second link:
adjective.
concealed or obscured:

Something can be concealed or obscured or out of site (thereby being hidden in plain English) without actively taking the Hide action in-game.

Being hidden in plain English is a requirement for being *Hidden* in game terminology.
In order to become *Hidden* in game terminology, you must first already be hidden.
You cannot be *Hidden* without first being hidden. But you can certainly be hidden without being *Hidden*.
The two are different.

[ProphetSword]

I made a statement a few pages back, contested by at least one person, but I think it is still true. There's no RAW answer to this. The rules are vague. That's why so many threads about this exist. People are going to argue until they get tired and the thread dies...only to start up again by another thread a week from the time this one dies...and another after that...etc.

The real answer is that there is no real answer. It's left up to the DM at each table. You aren't going to find solid rules, so DMs have to use common sense rulings. It's going to vary from table to table.

The rules probably should be more clear, but there's very little we can do until they are.

[DivisibleByZero]

I made a statement a few pages back, contested by at least one person, but I think it is still true. There's no RAW answer to this. The rules are vague. That's why so many threads about this exist. People are going to argue until they get tired and the thread dies...only to start up again by another thread a week from the time this one dies...and another after that...etc.

The real answer is that there is no real answer. It's left up to the DM at each table. You aren't going to find solid rules, so DMs have to use common sense rulings. It's going to vary from table to table.

The rules probably should be more clear, but there's very little we can do until they are.

This is exactly correct.
The stealth rules were specifically designed this way, on purpose, so that DMs could make rulings that made sense at the time.
The fact that the rules for stealth basically don't exist in any concrete way is 100% by design and working as intended.

[Corran]

That doesn't follow, for one thing, auditory processing can pick up information without pinpointing it

PHB p77, Hiding sidebar
If you make any noise, you give away your position.

PHB (Unseen attackers and targets)
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you are guessing the target's location OR you are targeting a creature you can hear but not see.

This last bit informs us that we know the location of a creature we can hear but not see, and so we are not guessing the target's location.

*RAW are pretty lackluster if you start taking into acount distance as a factor that contributes to the above, though as I had posted a few pages back, there is a 5e DM Screen with some rules about hearing distances.

[lperkins2]

PHB p77, Hiding sidebar
If you make any noise, you give away your position.

PHB (Unseen attackers and targets)
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you are guessing the target's location OR you are targeting a creature you can hear but not see.

This last bit informs us that we know the location of a creature we can hear but not see, and so we are not guessing the target's location.

*RAW are pretty lackluster if you start taking into acount distance as a factor that contributes to the above, though as I had posted a few pages back, there is a 5e DM Screen with some rules about hearing distances.

This is true as far as it goes. As you say, there is some info on hearing distances, but nothing RAW. As I've said before, breathing, which makes noise, is obviously too quiet to count as making noise, or no one would ever be able to be hidden. Shouting is given as a specific example of what is making noise. The threshold between those two is never defined, and is arguably circumstance dependent (including potentially using a Dexterity (Stealth) check against a fixed DC to do something without making noise, e.g. picking a lock or opening a door).

Define *Hidden*. Because in game terms it means 'a creature that has successfully attempted hiding (plain English)'.

Nope. The only place hidden is defined, and here only in passing, is on page 195 in the PHB.

"If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—..."

Note that this does not have anything to do with attempted actions, nor the success thereof, except that successfully attempting to hide renders you unseen and possibly unheard.

[ProphetSword]

This is exactly correct.
The fact that the rules for stealth basically don't exist in any concrete way is 100% by design and working as intended.

Right. Which goes back to the other point I made several pages back: "Rulings...not rules."

This is clearly a situation where the DM is expected to make a common sense ruling, as concrete rules for how to arbitrate the situation don't exist.

This isn't the answer some people want, but it is the only answer that exists.

It also essentially means that every person arguing one way or the other here are completely right; because when it comes to rulings, no one is wrong.

[ThePolarBear]

Do we all agree on those points?

Spoiler: I guess it's a no.

Show

2. To attempt to hide, one has to:
2.a Be unseen, be it by mundane or magical means. (ex. Jim the Goblin is being watched by Warden Jeff. Jim cannot attempt Stealth)

No, you are only required to not be seen clearly. You can still be seen, but you might be unrecogniz(ed/able)

3. To stay hidden once the Stealth roll is made, one has to:
3.a Not be in the range of someone's other senses that would automatically reveal their location (ex. Jim the Goblin is hiding. He walks within 10 ft of Carol the high-level Thief. Carol immediately knows Jim is here thanks to Blindsense, he is no longer hiding.)

"Not be in range - of someone you are hiding from - ". You can still be in range of your buddy rogue. I know it's implicit in what you mean, but it's better to be thorough.

3.b Not make noise, as making noise immediately give one location's away

Non sequitur. You are no longer hidden because you are no longer unheard. Location or not is not important in this case for the purpose of hiding. Knowing where someone is or not doesn't automatically make it any more heard or seen, but it might make it one or the other.

3.c Have their Stealth roll result be superior to the Perception (passive or active) of the persons they're hiding from

If the person is already hidden when someone can notice them, Perception is the roll that has to be higher. Due to how ability contests work in case of a tie the situation remains in the same state as it was before the contest took place - the creature remains hidden.

3.e Not attack a creature. Attacking automatically reveal your position, no matter if the attack hit or not

Same non sequitur as above. Again, knowing where someone is doesn't make a difference directly for the rules. Either you see or hear the creature or the creature is still hidden. You know where the attack came from. This might lead to you seeing them. But nowhere in the rules there's the correlation "location = no longer hidden."

4. Stealth vs Perception is a contest, unless Passive Perception is used.

It's still a contest. You simply use passive perception in place of a roll. It might be a case of specific vs general, however.

6. One does not have to roll Perception to perceive things or people that are not concealed or difficult to detect

I agree, but then again a DM might think otherwise. How much "Rolling with it" is too much?
I'm digressing, however.

7. Invisibility makes one:
7a. Impossible to be detected by sight.

Unless specific exceptions.

7d. give a disadvantage to their foes in combat

Creatures attacking the invisible creature do so at disadvantage on the attack rolls. It's not a carpet disadvantage to everything.

10e. If the creature's location is not given away or known, one has to guess. If they guess wrong, the attack automatically fail.[/I]

"If one can't see or hear a creature or has specific abilities to locate a creature, it has to guess a location to attack where the creature might be. Guessing incorrectly..."

Do we all agree on those points?

Most things i replied to are nitpicks and pedanteries, i know. I've tried to be coincise, it might pass as harsh writing, it's just trying to stay as dry and coincise as possible. I appreciate the attempts to bring out all the possible rules in a compact and centralized manner. I just prefer, since these are attempts to be as clear as possible, to be as clear as possible.

It isn't leaving your hiding spot, although you are correct that breaking cover doesn't really do it either. It is if you are no longer lightly or heavily obscured. I mention breaking cover because what is obscuring you is often bushes, barrels, or similar things which partially or completely break line of sight to you. If you move out from behind them, you are no longer lightly obscured and thus are no longer hidden.

Yeah, that's what i meant with "get out of your hiding spot". As i said, i understand the meaning. I can't find the "most correct" way to put it into words. "hiding place" is not necessarly a "single square" on a grid - it might be a dense patch of vegetation. And leaving it would of course need to be where "someone" can perceive you. You can still hide in a flat barren land - as long as the creatures you are hiding from can't see you clearly.

[BurgerBeast]

At the end of the day, the hiding rules have nothing to do with the proposed scenario.

The question is simply: what are the chances of seeing (detecting) an invisible person? And perhaps secondarily, what are the odds that you can pinpoint (within 5') the location of the invisible person?

I don't need to get into very much to detail to tell anyone that "you automatically see him" is ridiculous, or that "you automatically know which 5' by 5' square he is in" is even more ridiculous.

There is absolutely not a RAW justification of this view, and to read it in this way is to read it incorrectly.

[Unoriginal]

Non sequitur. You are no longer hidden because you are no longer unheard. Location or not is not important in this case for the purpose of hiding. Knowing where someone is or not doesn't automatically make it any more heard or seen, but it might make it one or the other.



If the person is already hidden when someone can notice them, Perception is the roll that has to be higher. Due to how ability contests work in case of a tie the situation remains in the same state as it was before the contest took place - the creature remains hidden.



Same non sequitur as above. Again, knowing where someone is doesn't make a difference directly for the rules. Either you see or hear the creature or the creature is still hidden. You know where the attack came from. This might lead to you seeing them. But nowhere in the rules there's the correlation "location = no longer hidden."

You misread what I wrote. I wrote what one had to do to *stay* hidden.

[Unoriginal]

I don't need to get into very much to detail to tell anyone that "you automatically see him" is ridiculous, or that "you automatically know which 5' by 5' square he is in" is even more ridiculous.

Could you please explain in which way it is ridiculous?


Note that we're talking about detecting through hearing, when the person makes noise.

[BurgerBeast]

Could you please explain in which way it is ridiculous?

Note that we're talking about detecting through hearing, when the person makes noise.

First of all, the example does not indicate that he is making noise. It says that he is standing still. You are assuming he is making noise.

Second of all, even assuming he is making noise, hearing him doesn't make him visible. So, hearing him doesn't make you able to see him, and certainly not automatically.

Third of all, the ability to hear to hear something does not even come close to allowing you to pinpoint something. Anyone who has had the experience of trying to find their ringing cellular phone knows this very well.

There will always be a need to determine possibilities and probabilities. The idea that you can determine it automatically is absurd.

[Unoriginal]

Second of all, even assuming he is making noise, hearing him doesn't make him visible. So, hearing him doesn't make you able to see him, and certainly not automatically.

I can't respond to the rest of your post right now, but this is you changing your premise.

You said you used "see" to mean "detect". Of course he can't be literally seen, he's invisible

[Sitri]

Previously I tried to summarize the arguments from a stupid high number of pages beside the RAW that spawned them about this topic. The following was my understanding of the arguments.

This thread looked similar to that one......only the uncontrollable farts in this thread are not bloody.

More recent tweet that recants some earlier ones that seemed to have caused some problems.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECr...80481652756480

Summary of RAW only arguments as I understand them from post 400 and something.


Arguments that pinpointing invisible/dark creatures is not automatic:

BLlNDSIGHT
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings
without relying on sight, within a specific radius.
Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures
with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats
and true dragons, have this sense.

Apologist: If a special ability lets creatures perceive their surroundings to a certain range without sight, it doesn't make sense that all creatures can do it for an effectively unlimited range.

Critic: By "can perceive," it means automatically perceives hidden stuff in addition to the invisible stuff everyone gets. Perception score only matters for things outside the radius of blindsight, if at all? An alternative suggestion: This ability prevents invisible creatures from hiding unless they can qualify another way.

Stealth.
Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you
attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past
guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on
someone without being seen or heard.

Apologist: No mention of Hide Action requirement, just an attempt to conceal yourself. Backed by the idea that the DM can call for a Challenge anytime and/or many checks cannot use an action.

Critic: In combat, anything that has anything to do with stealth requires the hide action.

HIDE
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity
(Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules
in chapter 7 for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain
benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and
Targets" section later in this chapter.

Apologist: The only stated benefit of the Hide action is in Unseen Attackers and Targets, no reference to masking location or being the sole way to mask location/use stealth in combat.

Critic: In the Unseen Attackers and Targets section, it is generally implied that the hide action is how you mask your location.

Unseen Attackers and Targets pt1
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice
by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking
in darkness.

Apologist: Three alternatives methods are listed to escape enemy combatants notice. If enemies know where you are standing unless you use the first alternative, the other two do not do what it says they do.

Critic: The book is wrong.

Unseen Attackers and Targets pt2
When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have
disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether
you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting
a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in
the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but
the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not
whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on
attack rolls against it.

Apologist: No real assertions, included for completeness.
Critic: See Second portion for assertions.

Unseen Attackers and Targets pt 3
If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses.

Apologist: “Hidden” is not a mechanical term that means “used the Hide Action.” The word “Hidden” is used in the PHB roughly 50 times; many of which cannot mean “used the Hide Action.”

Critic: In combat, it is assumed or implied that “Hidden” means “used the Hide Action.”

Hiding (Found under Dexterity)
….You can't hide from a creature that can see you [Errata: The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. Also, the question isn't whether the creature can see you when you're hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly] and if you
make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a
vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

Apologist: The examples given should be used as a frame of reference for what types of sounds give away your position. The reference to "can hide," means it can always take the hide action, further reducing the chance of being pinpointed.

Critic: Some say ignore the sound references all together. Some say it can affect roll modifiers, but ignore it for the purpose of figuring out if enough noise is made to give away the location of an invisible/dark creature. The line saying invisible can hide, means they must use the hide action to have any chance of the enemy not knowing their position.

BLINDSENSE
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are
aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature
within 1O feet of you.

Apologist: You must not automatically know the position of an invisible, unhidden creature. With this ability your hearing becomes precise enough to do this at a very limited range.

Critic: There was a writing/editing error.

FERAL SENSES
At 18th levei, you gain preternatural senses that help
you fight creatures you can't see. When you attack a
creature you can't see, your inability to see it doesn't
impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible
creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the
creature isn't hidden from you and you aren't
blinded or deafened.

Apologist: Yet another example in the PHB of needing a special ability to automatically know the location of an invisible creature that isn't hidden from you.

Critic: No response yet.

Arguments that pinpointing invisible/dark creatures is automatic without the Hide Action:

Unseen Attackers and Targets pt2
When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.

Apologist: Since you can target a creature you can hear but not see, you can hear invisible/darkness creatures well enough to pinpoint them until they hide.

Critic: Just because you can sometimes hear someone well enough to pinpoint them, doesn’t mean you always can.


Unseen Attackers and Targets pt3
If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Apologist: In Combat “hidden” means you must have took the Hide Action. Hidden is defined as unseen and unheard. There aren’t details about how to be unheard, so you are always heard unless you are “hidden.” Therefore to mask your location in combat you must use the Hide action.

Critic: There is no written evidence that “hidden” in combat means used the Hide Action. The references regarding what types of sounds give away your location should be used for pinpointing location. Saying you must be “hidden” to have your location masked based on the above statement is rearranging the cause and effect of the sentence.

E.G. If your thumb-the stumpy finger opposable to the others on your hand- is cut off, you have reduced manual dexterity. Therefore, if you have reduced manual dexterity, you must have had your stumpy opposable finger (thumb) cut off.

SOUNDS
A dungeon's enclosed geography helps channel sound.
The groaning creak of an opening door can echo down
hundreds of feet of passageway. Louder noises such
a the clanging hammers of a forge or the din of battle
can reverberate through an entire dungeon. Many
creatures that live underground use such sounds as a
way of locating prey, or go on alert at any sound of an
adventuring party's intrusion.

Apologist: Since you can hear distances far away in some circumstances, you can pinpoint their location at different distances, sometimes extremely far away.

Critic: Hearing something isn’t the same as being able to hear it well enough to pinpoint it without sight. Further, only some creatures are listed as using these sounds to locate prey, not all.

NOTICING OTHER CREATURES
While exploring, characters might encounter other
creatures. An important question in such a situation is
who notices whom.
Indoors, whether the sides can see one another
usually depends on the configuration of rooms and
passageways. Vision might also be limited by light
sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain,
weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely
to hear one another before they see anything.
If neither side is being stealthy, creatures
automatically notice each other once they are within
sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise,
compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the
creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive
Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as
explained in the Player's Handbook.

Apologist: This is further evidence that you can hear things far away. Here the term stealthy means using the Stealth Skill. To use Stealth in combat requires the Hide Action.

Critic: Hearing and pinpointing by hearing are different. Stealthy probably refers to use of the stealth skill most of the time. The book does not say all uses of Stealth in combat require the Hide Action.

INVISIBLE
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the
aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of
hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's
location can be detected by any noise it makes
or any tracks it leaves.

Apologist: In this case, "any noise" should be read as not having taken the hide action or being invisible/dark in a silence spell while in combat.

Critic: To pinpoint an invis/dark creature’s location, it should require noise similar to examples given (or tracks in appropriate environments.) The use of "any" without the previous frame of reference leads to absurdity and multiple book contradictions.

[Malifice]

Nope. That isn't how the rules work. That's how many people believe the rules to work, and those people are wrong.
This is, in a nutshell, exactly the reason that this thread exists.



It isn't automatic, and "can be detected" expresses possibility.
So you may or may not know where he is. DM's call, both on whether it's possible and what rolls, if any, are required.
But you do not just know where he is. Not unless the DM tells you that you do.

And for the billionth time that possibility is determined via opposed stealth vs perception.

If Bob beats Alice's passive perception he's hidden (unseen and unheard). If he doesn't she can hear or otherwise notice signs of his passage and he's just unseen (and Alice suffers a raft of penalties to attack him and he gets a raft of bonuses against her).

[Malifice]

First of all, the example does not indicate that he is making noise. It says that he is standing still. You are assuming he is making noise.

Second of all, even assuming he is making noise, hearing him doesn't make him visible. So, hearing him doesn't make you able to see him, and certainly not automatically.

Third of all, the ability to hear to hear something does not even come close to allowing you to pinpoint something. Anyone who has had the experience of trying to find their ringing cellular phone knows this very well.

There will always be a need to determine possibilities and probabilities. The idea that you can determine it automatically is absurd.

It's not just detecting via hearing them, you can smell them, touch them as they instinctively parry or block your wild swings or brush past you, and notice their presence visually in other ways (grass and branches bending back, footprints in the mud, snow or dirt, swirling of dust, snow or fog as they move, dripping blood on the floor from their injuries, a splash as they stand in a puddle, their breath clouding in air in the cold etc).

I have a 30 x 30 living room. I guarantee you if you turned invisible in it, and I instantly lept forward and started dancing around the room swinging a sword from side to side furiously, I could sweep it over the entire room likely hitting you in the space of 6 seconds.

Then you get to attempt to hide.

[LeonBH]

Sitri, as for Blindsense and Feral Sense, I'll throw this in for the Critic side: those abilities actually grant almost nothing that they can't already do, by RAW.

Blindsense lets you know the location of an invisible creature within 10 feet of you, even if they're hidden. This is not something everyone gets by default.

Feral Senses lets you attack an invisible creature without disadvantage, which is something not everyone gets by default too. The second half of that (know where invisible creatures are that are not hidden) doesn't grant an ability is something they could already do.

[Strill]

Sitri, as for Blindsense and Feral Sense, I'll throw this in for the Critic side: those abilities actually grant almost nothing that they can't already do, by RAW.

Blindsense lets you know the location of an invisible creature within 10 feet of you, even if they're hidden. This is not something everyone gets by default.

So whether they're invisible or not is irrelevant to whether you can sense them? Why does it mention invisible creatures then if that's completely superfluous?

Feral Senses lets you attack an invisible creature without disadvantage, which is something not everyone gets by default too. The second half of that (know where invisible creatures are that are not hidden) doesn't grant an ability is something they could already do.

I'm not willing to accept that the devs included irrelevant superfluous text in the rules unless they admit that it's a mistake, like with the Grappler feat.

[LeonBH]

So whether they're invisible or not is irrelevant to whether you can sense them? Why does it mention invisible creatures then if that's completely superfluous?

I'm not willing to accept that the devs included irrelevant superfluous text in the rules unless they admit that it's a mistake, like with the Grappler feat.

And if the devs never admit that it's superfluous text, that doesn't mean it isn't superfluous text.

[BurgerBeast]

And for the billionth time that possibility is determined via opposed stealth vs perception.

Saying it a billion times doesn't lend any added credibility.

It's not just detecting via hearing them, you can smell them, touch them as they instinctively parry or block your wild swings or brush past you, and notice their presence visually in other ways (grass and branches bending back, footprints in the mud, snow or dirt, swirling of dust, snow or fog as they move, dripping blood on the floor from their injuries, a splash as they stand in a puddle, their breath clouding in air in the cold etc).

Did you even read the OP? You're describing a totally different scenario than I am talking about. I don't think many would refute what you've said, here, but being engaged with a foe in the woods is quite different from being indoors in the same room while he stands still.

I have a 30 x 30 living room. I guarantee you if you turned invisible in it, and I instantly lept forward and started dancing around the room swinging a sword from side to side furiously, I could sweep it over the entire room likely hitting you in the space of 6 seconds.

Another totally different example. If you don't know the person is in the room, you're not going to behave like this.