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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Final- D, I do normally like the 'other' type shows that give us another view of a TV show...but Mac and bo just don't get the job done. This is just a filler episode, guess they had to make a set number or something.
    Don't really have anything to argue about with your points this time. This really could have been an interesting episode, but the potential was wasted.

  2. - Top - End - #812
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Learning Curve

    Episode five....


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So why can't B5 get more starfuries? If it is a um like Earth station they do get like everything from Earth, right? And if it's independent or something..and, um, under Earth control or something...they still get everything from Earth, right? And even if they are not ''part'' of Earth...can't they buy starfuries from Earthgov or something like that?

    *Garabaldi and Lockey both talk about ''the world'', so what world are they talking about? Just Earth? Maybe they should have said something more like ''the galaxy''. You'd think after say 2200 or so humans would not really say ''world'' to much anymore when talking about the vast multi world human empire.

    *Lockely says she never thought she'd meet another man like her...sigh. Ok, hooray for women, but again if women in B5 have been free for hundreds of years would they not be saying ''humans'' or ''people'' and not ''man'' and ''woman''...

    *The thugs in down bellow mention hookers.....hookers on B5? Guess TNT has a bit lighter standards then UHF broadcast Tv.

    *So, yet again, what is wrong with the jerk monster telepaths? Sure, they don't want to be spies as their life dream...but they did agree to do it. Being super jerks after you agreed to do something is just wrong.

    *So the lady wants to meet Zack without anyone knowing....and Zack, like a idiot, is like ''sure I'll meet her in a deserted part of the station, alone, with no security around". So, does Zack have a deathwish or something? Are there not like a dozen ways to meet someone and not be seen in public?

    *Er, the Rangers are about ''terror''? Terror? Like they are Terrorists? The Rangers?

    *Maybe it's just a special effects glitch but the whole station rotates, not just the inner O-Neal cylinder...

    *The whole idea that the Rangers are above and beyond local security is just asking for problems.

    *And, again, has the question of B5's status...is it independent? Part of the Alliance? Part of Earth?

    *So Ranger Trainee Number Two did the whole ''I only want to die for something epic and important''. Now this is the same lesson the Vorlon's did with Jack to Sheridan and Deleen. So, the question is...did Deleen add this to the ranger training course after she encountered Jack? Or has it all ways been a part of the course ? Did maybe Kosh or another vorlon suggest it? And if it has all ways been a part...why would not Deleen recognize it when Jack did it? Like as soon as Jack said ''who are you?" she would have just answered ''nodoby and I'm ready to die in the darkness, forgotten and alone....you want to go get some tea?"

    *So thug bully guy does make the point that he has rights...and he does, or should. Rights are a fundamental part of freedom. But, the Rangers just laugh and are like ''whatever''. So does a persons Rights vanish if the Rangers say so? Are Rangers really that far above the law? Like a couple episodes ago Sheridan made a big deal about the Alliance Principles..so is there a clause in there that says ''oh if the Rangers want they can do anything they want and anyone loses their rights and protections under the law"? Like people in the alliance have Rights...except if a Ranger is there, as a Ranger can kill you and your family and steal your stuff and it's all ok? That is a bit Darker Secret Police then Good Guardians.

    *Er, so did the good and noble Rangers cheat when the master fighter trained Ranger Trainee Number One?

    *So the thing where rangers must go back and fight someone they lost a fight too...like within a couple hours ''as soon as they can stand'' is really dumb.

    *So Garabaldi, as head of Alliance Intelligence, can't look at Captain Lockely's file? Why not? Is not Secretary of Intelligence/head of the CIA/whatever not, way, way, way high enough in rank to look at a file of a lowly Earthforce captain?

    *Or, ok, say Garabaldi does not want to go through the proper channels...as head of Intelligence why does he not just steal Lockely's file? Is that like not normal spy stuff?

    *For that matter, it's a bit odd for a couple shows now that Garabaldi has no staff. Should he not have some spies and such working for him?

    *And what about the Rangers? A big part of the Rangers is to spy and watch and gather intelligence....so does that fall under Garabaldi? Or are they independent? But would they not work together?



    Final F, sigh, this one just has too much focus on the new recruits, and nothing much else happens.

  3. - Top - End - #813
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *So why can't B5 get more starfuries? If it is a um like Earth station they do get like everything from Earth, right? And if it's independent or something..and, um, under Earth control or something...they still get everything from Earth, right? And even if they are not ''part'' of Earth...can't they buy starfuries from Earthgov or something like that?

    *Maybe it's just a special effects glitch but the whole station rotates, not just the inner O-Neal cylinder...
    One assumes Earthforce are concentrating on rebuilding their own Starfury stocks after the ones that must have been lost during the war, they're not going to be willing to hand new ones off to a station that isn't technically theirs anymore. Also, B5 has always had a non-rotating section? Or do you mean something else by your second point?

  4. - Top - End - #814
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    One assumes Earthforce are concentrating on rebuilding their own Starfury stocks after the ones that must have been lost during the war, they're not going to be willing to hand new ones off to a station that isn't technically theirs anymore. Also, B5 has always had a non-rotating section? Or do you mean something else by your second point?
    One wonders how many Starfuries Earth has? Plus each destroyer has something like 20, so for each one of them in dry dock or such that is a bunch of 'spare' fighters.


    The whole back of the station, the power core, solar panels and the big long skinny cargo warehouse of B5 all do not spin at all. Only the cylinder spins and has gravity. There is a shot in the middle of the episode where the whole station is spinning...

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    BlackDragon

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    Was there? I never noticed that!

  6. - Top - End - #816
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Strange Relations

    Episode Six...

    Oh...wait...look a manta ray type Centari ship!

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Lyta and Doc Franklin have been through a lot, and it is safe to say they are friends. Plus Doc Franklin is a good guy who helps everyone and has even gone out of his way to help lukers and telepaths both. So why does Lyta not just ask for some drugs?

    *So with no line-of-sight the rogue telepaths detect the psy-cops from like a mile away or more?

    *Does not Captain Lockley jump up and attack Garabaldi a bit too quick? She does not even say or ask why Michael is all upset, she just throws a punch. And she knows all the details?

    *Ok, here starts the big problem, again, of what is the status of B5? If it is a Earth station then it follows Earth laws...if it is not, then it does not. When Sheridan as president lets the telepaths make a colony, he is granting them asylum, right? B5 is not an Earth station. And yes the Alliance does respect the laws of each member...but only to a point, right? Each member has too follow the alliance laws in general, right. It's not like Earth laws apply to the galaxy.

    *So Bester calls Earth and has Earthdome ask for B5's help....and Lockley is all like ''ok''? And where is Sheridin, taking a nap?

    *Sigh, the 60 day quarantine is just silly....and it's bad enough that Lockley fights back using such a silly rule. And...um...is not B5 Earth controlled space? And why could not Bester himself quarantine the telepaths himself on Mars or a space station or such?


    Final C, well it's much better episode, as after all it does have Bester in it. Still Lockley just looks dumb by quoting a law to save the day, instead of being like any other character and doing what is right.

  7. - Top - End - #817
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Sigh, the 60 day quarantine is just silly....and it's bad enough that Lockley fights back using such a silly rule. And...um...is not B5 Earth controlled space? And why could not Bester himself quarantine the telepaths himself on Mars or a space station or such?
    Moving someone from one place to another defeats the entire point of quarantine. Unless you can somehow get them there without them interacting in any way with anyone along the way, which is logistically almost impossible, then you've broken quarantine, which is a problem.

  8. - Top - End - #818
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Moving someone from one place to another defeats the entire point of quarantine. Unless you can somehow get them there without them interacting in any way with anyone along the way, which is logistically almost impossible, then you've broken quarantine, which is a problem.
    Well, of course we are talking about a silly and stupid non-quarantine.

    First off, as B5 does get travelers from everywhere in the galaxy, it should always count as a ''point of contact'' for weird alien things. And alien from Zarbanz Seven could come to the station and sweat an infection that humans have no natural resistance too and kills them (kinda what happened in the New World or any other isolated group of humans). Yet, we see people come and go from B5 all the time, with no hint of quarantine.

    And Bester and his people have had close contact with the ''infected blips'', so why are they not also in the quarantine?

    And it's not like the telepaths are going to be put IN quarantine...like an isolated space not connected to the main station. Nope, Lockley is just going to let them live like homeless bums in Down Below. SO if they really did have something, they could infect the whole station.

    In any case B5 would already be effected, but if that was true, they would have to close B5 for the next 60 days...no one in or out. But, of course this is not done.

    And to round up all the ''blips'' and put them on a ship, and keep that ship in space, say above the Psi Core Center for Happy Thoughts on Mars, works just as well as leaving them on B5.

  9. - Top - End - #819
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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • Secrets of the Soul
    • In the Kingdom of the Blind
    • A Tragedy of Telepaths



    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  10. - Top - End - #820
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    BlackDragon

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    Quick question: are we going to do another 3 next Sunday, or would it be a good idea to skip a week due to that whole Christmas thing? Just asking.

    [EDIT] OK, no-one seems to care about that, let's just post the reviews:

    Secrets of the Soul: Lyta is getting deeper into cahoots with the telepaths. One of them (Peter) gets beaten up by lurkers, and the rest decide to go and dish out some justice. Byron tries to stop this due to his policy of non-violence but is imprisoned due to a misunderstanding. When let out, he and Lyta get jiggy with it, during which he sees from her mind how Vorlons altered humans to create telepaths, while she sees a load of tanks around the place with aliens of various ages in. Byron thus deduces that, since telepaths were created to save everyone from the Shadows, they are owed a homeland, and he intends to force the Alliance to give them one.
    Meanwhile, Franklin is going through his job of creating a complete medical record of all Alliance races. The Hyach appear to have something to hide--their civilisation goes back 7000 years but they only supply him with records for the past 800. Turns out there was a species (the Hyach-doh) who developed alongside the Hyach on their homeworld and who could breed with Hyach--they were all wiped out in a religious pogrom a thousand years ago, and the Hyach's birth rate has been dropping ever since; they apparently needed the Hyach-doh. They ask Franklin for help, but he refuses--so long as this event is a secret he's not going near it, even if he had the resources to do so. The Hyach thus decide to reveal this to the universe at large.

    Thoughts: Second plot (the Hyach thing) is interesting, and the telepath plot is starting to hot up a bit. It's still not a great episode all told--you get the feeling both the main plots here would have been side plots in episodes at the series' height, which is presumably exactly what they would have been if the Shadow war and civil war had continued longer.

    In the Kingdom of the Blind: Alliance cargo transports are being destroyed with military precision, their cargoes left behind--so not raiders. Sheridan has only 24 hours before he has to reveal these findings to everyone, and he knows that the Alliance members will likely all blame each other.
    Londo arrives home with G'Kar in tow. He's told the Regent spends all his time in seclusion apart from times when he wanders around drunk, which is odd, because the guy used to be resolutely sober. He's also told that fleet status and material use are now top secret. While travelling to meet with the Regent he and G'Kar are attacked--G'Kar deals with the attackers but a gate falls, separating him from Londo. Lord Vole throws a knife at him, but the knife stops inches from him and flies back to kill Vole. Londo sees an alien with glowing red eyes in the shadows. They eventually get to meet the Regent in the throne room, who tells Mollari he must run and enjoy himself while he has a chance, and to not inquire about ships and fleets. Somewhere in space we see an unarmed transport destroyed by a Centauri battleship.
    Byron calls his telepaths together and tells them about the Vorlon manipulation thing. He then visits Garibaldi and insists on speaking to the Alliance council, threatening to inform all the Alliance ambassadors about the shipping attacks if he isn't allowed to speak. Byron makes his demand at the council, and also says that his telepaths have been following the ambassadors and now know all their secrets, which will be broadcast if his demands are not met. Later, a telepath is attacked by Drazi and others go to defend him, against Byron's orders; this allows Sheridan to remove his protection of the telepaths, so Zack will go with security to arrest them.

    Thoughts: A somewhat better episode. Byron is still annoying, but his followers are clearly idiots who don't understand what the real stakes are--if they just restrained themselves then his blackmail would probably work. I'm totally unconvinced that the actions of the Centauri ships would be totally secret even to high-ranking nobles like Londo, though, and how come not one of these ships is managing to send a distress call before being destroyed?

    A Tragedy of Telepaths: Lochley calls in Bester to assist with the hunger striking telepaths in Brown Sector, since Sheridan has his hands full with the Alliance transports being destroyed. The telepaths are making telepathic suggestions to the security team that are trying to break in, slowing them down. This includes a suggestion for Lochley to go in through the air ducts to the telepath hold-out. She goes in and tells them their demands are just giving a target for the Alliance members to lash out at, given they don't know who's destroying their ships; Byron still refuses to come out. He tells Lochley he let her in to say goodbye, since it'll probably be the last time they see each other. Bester arrives, which the telepaths naturally sense--they get the codes for the weapons locker from the minds of security and prepare for a fight. They kill a couple of security guys as they break in to the hold-out, then withdraw. Byron is distraught that people are killing in his name. Meanwhile, the Bloodhounds arrive on the station...
    On Centauri Prime, G'Kar and Londo find Na'Toth held in a cell in the palace. They can't release her because she was sent there by Cartagia's royal order, and only a countermanding royal order can undo that. They have to smuggle her out of the palace dressed as a Centauri woman, with Londo ordering the guard to wait three days and then wall up the hallway to that cell.
    In the Alliance, the Gaim, Drazi and Brakiri are blaming each other for the attacks, so Sheridan has to play hardball: he says that White Stars are on their borders and will retaliate if any of their ships attack another Alliance member. He demands more time to find out what is going on, and is reluctantly granted it.

    Thoughts: Can't help but think that Byron made his bed here. His refusal to help the Alliance security team and inability to keep his own people under control are the main reasons for the current crisis, and I think that all comes down to him being massively self-centred and not realising that there are more important things happening than himself and his telepaths. Heck, if he'd requested a homeworld rather than demanding one as right he would have got more traction, but Byron would never do that because he'd see it as begging for scraps from inferiors.
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-12-19 at 04:49 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #821
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Secrets of the Soul

    And episode seven

    *Byron is such a jerk....as soon as he said his little ''you people line'' I would have dropped the beat up tepepath right at his feet and say ''well, here mister high and mighty..you help him and save his life with your telepathy. "

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Anachronism-Byron mentions ''paperwork'', like many have before....but even in 2017 we do a lot less ''paperwork'' and a lot more ''computer work''. And sure something still have lots of paperwork, and a lot of people still say ''paperwork''...but wonder how much longer people will say ''paperwork''. I think it would be long gone by 2200 or so. Though we do see a lot of paper and clipboards in this episode too.

    *So the Downbelow Thug has a point when he ask where do all the telepaths get all their black clothing? They can't afford medicine or food, but they can find lots of black clothing.

    *The whole races keeping medical files secret is a bit odd. Sure the races don't want other to know that they are allergic to salt and if shake a bit of salt on them they will die. But anyone that really wanted to kill a race could just use the standard things that kill everything: radiation, fire, intergalactic war and so on. On the other had doctors really, really, really do need medical information to help....in fact they really can't help without that information.

    *Wonder why Doc Franklin does not just mention his own personal history of keeping medical secrets...like say his Minbari files.

    *Seems a bit odd that the telepaths have to live with the horror of living with Byron the Biggest Jerk in the Universe all the time and listen to his beyond stupid and dumb ideas.....yet one little mugging and they just go all murderhobo. So don't any of them listen to Byron or believe in his crap?

    *Wonder why the Vorlons set the ''sex trap'' to broadcast the secret of why telepaths were created? Did Lyta know the secret before? Does everyone know?

    Final-C, well it is not so bad...but it is just mostly boring.

  12. - Top - End - #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Anachronism-Byron mentions ''paperwork'', like many have before....but even in 2017 we do a lot less ''paperwork'' and a lot more ''computer work''.

    *The whole races keeping medical files secret is a bit odd. On the other had doctors really, really, really do need medical information to help....in fact they really can't help without that information.

    *Wonder why the Vorlons set the ''sex trap'' to broadcast the secret of why telepaths were created? Did Lyta know the secret before? Does everyone know?
    - We still refer to a diagram used to show the layout of a new build house or ship or whatever as a blueprint, despite actual blueprints having been obsolete since the 1940s. We still call the screen on our OS where we keep icons and documents as a "desktop". I don't have a problem with commonly-used phrases like "paperwork" persisting long after losing their literal meaning.

    - If the race in question are secretive enough they could just insist on using their own doctors, and if they're not near one of their own doctors, well, bad luck to be them, I guess.

    - I don't think that was any sort of trap? It was just that during the act Lyta's telepathic defences were down due to her being distracted, and Byron was able to read her mind. I'm also pretty sure the thing about Vorlons having created telepathy to fight the Shadows has been mentioned before, though I can't remember the exact circumstances.

  13. - Top - End - #823
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    In the Kingdom of the Blind

    Episode 8 (but 9 on the DVDs, oh well and odd as Byron says Episode 7 was yesterday...)

    The G'kar and Whip Guy is a nice touch.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So the attacks start suddenly in this episode...after 8 episodes. Really this build up should have started in episode one of season five. You know, just a mention of ''raiders'', then a couple shows later more reports and so on...

    *And again we get the ''darkness'' on Centrti Prime...suddenly. And again, this would have been much better if it was sprinkled into the last seven episodes.

    *It would seem the Drac are not keeping so tight a leash on the Regent, and you'd think they would. But maybe they are just new to the whole thing...


    *Wonder what ''evidence'' of the Vorlons creating telepaths Byron had to give? A transcript of Lyta's dream?

    *Byron really makes a wrong wove here by dropping his ''I have your secrets'' bombshell like one second after he asks for a planet. Really he should have at least given then a chance to say something. Plus very, very, very few governments would be comfortable with even the chance that someone might know even one state secret.

    *Sure, after Byron makes the huge mistake about stealing the secrets....but even before that Sheridan acts like there is no way in the universe the Alliance would ever give the telepaths a planet. But why? There are plenty of empty planets.

    *And Byron...if he was not such a jerk...might have been able to get the Alliance to give him a planet, in exchange for telepath help.

    *And what about Epsilon 3? It's in neutral space and Earth-like and Sheridan owns/commands it...so why not give it to the telepaths. Drall can even protect them....

    *Why does Byron go to the Alliance and not Earth? Other then the Minbari we don't know how the other races treat their telepaths....but we don't think they capture and abuse them like Psicore does. It is Earth, with it's Psicore, that Byron should target.....after all his group of telepaths is a group of exclusively all humans.

    *Why do the telepaths go for Cave man violence? Why not just use some telepathy and make the thugs go to sleep or such?

    *Guess the alien that saves Londo uses telepathic telekinesis?

    *The telepaths that have little food or anything else some how disable the transport tubes and weld all the doors shut. So where did they get welding equipment?

    Final-B, finally a decent B5 episode, it's not great by itself...but in true B5 style it is building up things. Though the Londo and G'kar parts a fun to watch.

  14. - Top - End - #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Sure, after Byron makes the huge mistake about stealing the secrets....but even before that Sheridan acts like there is no way in the universe the Alliance would ever give the telepaths a planet. But why? There are plenty of empty planets.

    *And what about Epsilon 3? It's in neutral space and Earth-like and Sheridan owns/commands it...so why not give it to the telepaths. Drall can even protect them....
    Yes, there are plenty of empty planets--so long as you don't mind living on lifeless pieces of rock like Epsilon 3. I don't imagine Byron is imagining a lifeless piece of rock when he's making a demand for a new home, he wants an actual habitable planet, and there's no evidence whatsoever that there are loads of empty ones of *those* around the place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - We still refer to a diagram used to show the layout of a new build house or ship or whatever as a blueprint, despite actual blueprints having been obsolete since the 1940s. We still call the screen on our OS where we keep icons and documents as a "desktop". I don't have a problem with commonly-used phrases like "paperwork" persisting long after losing their literal meaning.
    Sure, and I call the device in my kitchen that keeps food cold/frozen an ''Icebox''.....because my parents used that word. But that is over just a couple years. Not over like 250 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yes, there are plenty of empty planets--so long as you don't mind living on lifeless pieces of rock like Epsilon 3. I don't imagine Byron is imagining a lifeless piece of rock when he's making a demand for a new home, he wants an actual habitable planet, and there's no evidence whatsoever that there are loads of empty ones of *those* around the place.
    We don't know much about the galaxy, but it would seem to have plenty of ''class M'' planets. Almost every race comes from an Earth like planet..or you know, they could not walk around on B5.

    Like what about the old Markab homeworld? Sure it has no gate, but it is otherwise a nice Earth like planet.

  16. - Top - End - #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Like what about the old Markab homeworld? Sure it has no gate, but it is otherwise a nice Earth like planet.
    It's also the graveyard of an entire race--there would be significant ethical and moral issues with re-settling people there. Heck, in the real world it's often forbidden to dive on WW2 shipwrecks without permission because they're the only grave for the people who died when they sank.

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    A Tragedy of Telepaths

    The Things that Happen in a Monarchy is a great part...I'm sure there are plenty of real life examples.

    The ''Take off your Dress'' bit is really a nice bit.

    And so is the ''becoming invisible'' part....

    It is also great having Bester be right about the telepaths, and Lockey turning to him for help.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *This is a bit of a ''Hard'' Sci fi thing that B5 tends to avoid: but wonder if they could just cut off life support to the telepath brown zone? As everything on B5 is artificial, everything in brown sector is made and maintained. Why not cut off the life support...or at least turn it down? Really nothing will get a person out of a hole quicker then lack of air.

    *It's a bit odd Lockely calls Earthdome looking for Bester....I though Bester was based on Mars? Does he live on Mars and work in Earthdome? Or was she just sending the message ''through'' Earthdome to get to Bester.

    *Of course the maintenance shaft is nowhere near as small and tight as Zack says it is...it's huge!

    *Zack is just perfectly slow and dramatic to make the ''burning through drama'' happen perfectly. He could just say ''the telepaths are using telepathy tricks to keep us out'' way at the start of the conversation.

    *The telepaths never seem to use offensive teleptahy...they run and get guns.

    *So at the meeting it does seem to be proved that ''someone'' is dropping tech from other races to make it look like they are the Mysterious Attackers....but the Drazi are still like ''send the fleet out to attack the Bracrey!" why?

    *So, the Darzi Ambasador is all like ''we are only protecting ourselves'', by invading and attacking another race. This is just some crazy logic here. Maybe add all them ships your sending to attack the Bracrey to shipping lane security?

    *And why is the Bracrey Ambassador upset that the Alliance is protecting his space and ships? Would he not think that is a good thing?

    *And there is no further mention of the Gain finding the Darzi metal bit....so did the Gain send a Massive Murderhobo Fleet to ''protect'' themselves by invading Drazi space and blowing up a ship for each one they loose too? So why don't we see the Darzi react to this? They have to pull ships away from elsewhere to watch the Gain fleet, right?

    *And it would seem that a lot of Alliance members would support the idea of NOT invading and slaughtering people of another race on a whim and flimsy evidence....yet they are all silent.

    *And a big part of any Alliance is that the Big Guys help protect the Small Guys, so why don't the Big Space Powers get involved with the attack problem? Sure they have not been attacked, but a couple of Earth, Minbari, Centari or Narn warships could help patrol the space lanes, right?

    *And the Alliance members are all upset when Sheridan reveals his White Star Protection Fleet....but they did read the Alliance Constitution, right? And the part where ''Emperor Sheridan'' has full and independent control of the White Star Fleet....and they agreed to that, right?


    Final-B, this is a good episode. You can't go too wrong with G'Kar, Londo and Bester. And in true B5 tradition you can see something building up...

  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *This is a bit of a ''Hard'' Sci fi thing that B5 tends to avoid: but wonder if they could just cut off life support to the telepath brown zone? As everything on B5 is artificial, everything in brown sector is made and maintained. Why not cut off the life support...or at least turn it down? Really nothing will get a person out of a hole quicker then lack of air.

    *It's a bit odd Lockely calls Earthdome looking for Bester....I though Bester was based on Mars? Does he live on Mars and work in Earthdome? Or was she just sending the message ''through'' Earthdome to get to Bester.

    *So, the Darzi Ambasador is all like ''we are only protecting ourselves'', by invading and attacking another race. This is just some crazy logic here. Maybe add all them ships your sending to attack the Bracrey to shipping lane security?

    *And a big part of any Alliance is that the Big Guys help protect the Small Guys, so why don't the Big Space Powers get involved with the attack problem? Sure they have not been attacked, but a couple of Earth, Minbari, Centari or Narn warships could help patrol the space lanes, right?
    - I think we just assume they don't have the capability of shutting down life support to individual sectors like that. After all, building that capability into the station would require them to have thought of it as being necessary, and B5 was built with a sense of optimism, not mistrust.

    - I don't think we have any evidence Bester lives on Mars? We only ever saw him there when he was carrying out his trick with Garibaldi. Having said that, wherever Bester lives, contacting him via Earthdome seems eminently sensible because Psi Corps is an Earthgov agency and so they'd be expected to know where its operatives can be found.

    - Maybe there's a lot more civilian traffic than you could possibly escort, unless you set up some sort of convoy system--which only works if most of the trade is happening between a few fixed locations, rather than all over the place? Plus, the Centauri ships are presumably being told they have to keep this all quiet, so if they detected a military vessel in the area they wouldn't attack.

  19. - Top - End - #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - I think we just assume they don't have the capability of shutting down life support to individual sectors like that. After all, building that capability into the station would require them to have thought of it as being necessary, and B5 was built with a sense of optimism, not mistrust.

    - I don't think we have any evidence Bester lives on Mars? We only ever saw him there when he was carrying out his trick with Garibaldi. Having said that, wherever Bester lives, contacting him via Earthdome seems eminently sensible because Psi Corps is an Earthgov agency and so they'd be expected to know where its operatives can be found.

    - Maybe there's a lot more civilian traffic than you could possibly escort, unless you set up some sort of convoy system--which only works if most of the trade is happening between a few fixed locations, rather than all over the place? Plus, the Centauri ships are presumably being told they have to keep this all quiet, so if they detected a military vessel in the area they wouldn't attack.
    Well, shutting down life support would seem to be an obvious thing to build into a space station. If like ''sector 1'' takes damage and has a hull breech you do need to turn off life support to that area. You can't fix a broken electrical cable that is ''live'', the same way you can't fix a broken pipe that is leaking air or water or whatever without first truing off the flow. But even if it is not the ''push a button'' type of thing...it can still be done manually, right? I can shut off the heat going to say the basement in my house easy enough, and even the electricity.

    And does not trade happen in fixed locations with fixed trade routes? Even in space? Even just a couple random patrols would work. It is just odd that all the Big Powers just sit back and are like ''yep all the little guys are being attacked...oh, well, too bad for them".

  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, shutting down life support would seem to be an obvious thing to build into a space station. If like ''sector 1'' takes damage and has a hull breech you do need to turn off life support to that area. You can't fix a broken electrical cable that is ''live'', the same way you can't fix a broken pipe that is leaking air or water or whatever without first truing off the flow. But even if it is not the ''push a button'' type of thing...it can still be done manually, right? I can shut off the heat going to say the basement in my house easy enough, and even the electricity.
    This makes a lot of sense.

    I'd suggest that the reason for not shutting off life support is that those in the affected areas then have incentive to start cutting apart the station in order to get at the atmosphere, heat, electricity and so forth that they need to survive. It's also very likely that actions such as this would impact children. Even if these are the reasons, they would merit a mention in the show.

  21. - Top - End - #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, shutting down life support would seem to be an obvious thing to build into a space station. If like ''sector 1'' takes damage and has a hull breech you do need to turn off life support to that area.

    And does not trade happen in fixed locations with fixed trade routes? Even in space? Even just a couple random patrols would work. It is just odd that all the Big Powers just sit back and are like ''yep all the little guys are being attacked...oh, well, too bad for them".
    OK, yes, that's a good point. If such a system is built into the station, maybe it's too coarse (e.g. affects too large an area) to use for this purpose? Byron and co. seem to be trapped in a fairly small section. Either that, or they only implement emergency life support shutdown in areas next to the hull, and this area isn't such an area?

    As for trade, usually trade on Earth happens between major seaports, and yes, a majority of it probably *does* happen between the usual suspects--but even on Earth there are smaller trade vessels used for more local routes, and that would be even more the case in space; there probably isn't a major trade route between Centauri Prime and, say, Proxima 3, so Centauri goods go to Earth first and then follow a local trade route out to the colony. Multiply that up by the number of colonies a race has and you soon end up with something that, if you plotted it on a map, would look like spaghetti.

  22. - Top - End - #832
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    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • Phoenix Rising
    • Day of the Dead
    • The Ragged Edge


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

    Since it's a holiday week for a lot of people, I'm going to keep an eye on posting level this week. If it seems like people didn't get around to discussing these much this week (or the "regulars" don't get their summaries in), I'll post them again next week rather than moving on. This means that if you usually post, watched these, but for some reason don't have anything to say about them, please post something short so I know not to wait for you.

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    Cutting off life support sectors on a on a space station and such might fall under the same category as chemical weapons so a war-crime. As its basically the same kind of threat to get want you want.
    Furthermore Brown sector is the part of the station that houses the life support and waste reclamation facilities. So shutting off the life support to Brown 3 is likely pointless because it already has air and water reclamation equipment.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  24. - Top - End - #834
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    Well, it looks like things did, indeed, slow down for Christmas. Let's give it another week.

    This week, we'll (again) be discussing:

    • Phoenix Rising
    • Day of the Dead
    • The Ragged Edge



    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  25. - Top - End - #835
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    Phoenix Rising: The telepath situation is worsening. One of Bester's bloodhounds is left dead in a lift with "Free Byron!" written on the wall. Byron says he can end things peacefully if the Psi-Cops leave the station, but obviously that's not going to happen.
    Garibaldi attempts to get Bester to record a confession of what he did to him. Unfortunately, Bester thought of that and installed a block in Garibaldi's mind that means he can't bring himself to hurt Bester, no matter how much he wants to. He goes to Medlab to see if there's a medical way to remove the block, just in time for the telepaths to burst in and take him and others hostage. The telepaths threaten to start killing hostages unless they get safe passage and a homeworld. Sheridan says they won't negotiate with terrorists and a shot is fired--but it's Byron, who has shot the leader of the rogues. He says that he'll surrender Medlab so long as he can speak to his people, and the innocent ones are allowed to leave peacefully.
    This all goes wrong, of course--the violent telepaths are in the middle of surrendering when Bester (who's already been told he doesn't have jurisdiction anymore) runs up and demands he be given the prisoners. One of the teeps panics and shoots at Bester, and a firefight erupts during which a fuel conduit is ruptured. Byron and Lockley shout for a ceasefire, and Byron then uses a PPG to ignite the fuel, immolating himself and the violent telepaths. He's left Lyta with information about safe houses and the like that she passes on to the innocent telepaths as they leave.
    Final scene: Garibaldi is drinking again, something he hasn't done in years...

    Thoughts: The scene with Garibaldi about to be shot is the same one we saw in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" at the end of last series--I do wonder how much of this JMS knew would happen when he shot DFS, or how much he had to tweak the plotline to ensure this would happen in the same way? Anyway, for this episode to really have an impact we needed to actually like Byron, and as I've said, he's about as likeable as an incontinent wolverine, so it really kind of falls flat--it's more "Thank God he's gone" rather than "Awww, that's a shame".

    Day of the Dead: This is the Neil Gaimain-penned episode, which makes it the only episode after season 2 which is not written by JMS. The idea is that the Brakiri are celebrating their "Day of the Dead", when people who have died come back to visit those still alive, and somehow an entire section of the station (including the quarters of the some of the regulars) gets sucked into this. Garibaldi is visited by the ground pounder "Dodger" (from "GROPOS" three years ago), Londo gets to see Adira Tyree again, Captain Lochley is visited by an old friend (girlfriend is sort of implied), and Lennier gets to see Mr. Morden. Kosh leaves a message for Sheridan via Lochley's old friend, and Morden tells Lennier he's going to betray the Rangers.
    There's also a somewhat odd turn by visiting comedians "Rebo and Zooty" (aka Penn and Teller).

    Thoughts: This is a completely stand-alone episode with no real arc significance, but it's a really, really good one. Seeing the reactions of the various people to their "dead" is fascinating, although it would obviously have been better if it were Ivanova meeting her old friend rather than Lochley, who was only introduced half a season ago. Still, that was Neil Gaiman's decision, not JMS. The play between Lennier and Morden is particularly fun, since Lennier really doesn't have any reason to like Morden and is quite discomfited that he's there.

    The Ragged Edge: The members of the Alliance are boycotting the council until their shipping lanes can be made safe. As it so happens, a single human survivor of a convoy gets away in an escape pod in the latest attack. A human convoy in Drazi space means they're most likely smugglers, so the Drazi government won't help them find them, but Garibaldi knows some people. He goes to see his friend on Drazi Prime--the escaped human is in trouble, since pretty much everyone wants him dead, so they have to get him off planet and have arranged a rescue. Unfortunately, Garibaldi gets drunk and doesn't hear his friend get shot outside--he tries to go and rescue the pilot, but he's dead, and the thugs who killed him do a number on Garibaldi as well. He has to be rescued by a White Star. In the debriefing, he has a button he managed to grab off one of the thugs, and he knows they were not Drazi. The fact they knew about him and his friend means there's a leak in station security somewhere.
    Londo arrives mid-meeting and notices the button--he says it belongs to the Centauri Palace Guard. When he's left, the others come to the conclusion that the Centauri are behind the attacks, but Londo almost certainly doesn't know that--however, it must have been through him that they learned of Garibaldi's mission. They can't tell Londo of their suspicions because he would immediately try to find out the truth behind it, and would be killed in turn.
    The book G'Kar has been writing was "rescued" from his quarters on the orders of the Kha'ri, who feared he would be executed on Centauri Prime, and it's been published. G'Kar is now a religious icon, something he finds rather upsetting. He's afraid that he might not be sending the right message, or that he might become larger than the message and overshadow it. Ta'Lon tells him that if that happens he will kill G'Kar himself...which G'Kar finds sort of comforting.

    Thoughts: The stuff with Garibaldi's returning alcoholism is just going too fast, and seems to have a rather weak basis--I mean, he already went through all kinds of hell with Bester during the Shadow War, why is the latest stuff enough to push him over the edge? I definitely think the boozing would have started during season 4 if JMS knew he would get a season 5, to give it time to settle in. Apart from that it's a pretty good episode--we're starting to see the secrecy behind the Centauri attacks unravel. (Although I still don't understand why nobody can send out a distress signal--this latest convoy even had fighter cover, and none of them were able to send a message? An entire lifepod can escape Centauri attention, but the ships' "black boxes" or whatever is the equivalent in B5 disappear along with everything else?).

  26. - Top - End - #836
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    Phoenix Rising

    Episode 11....

    So this is the mentioned Telepath War....sigh, how disappointing

    The end where Garabaldi takes a drink is nice....but i think it would have been better with some build up.


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Ok, so humans fall under Earthgov Law...but it seems odd that ''all humans everywhere, no matter what'' are just automatically under human law. Would this not be a more Citizenship type thing? If someone wants to leave Earth Space...they can right? And not worry that some Earth Cop might show up some day and say ''oh you broke law #3867 you are under arrest."

    *And the Alliance agrees to let each each world govern their own people...well, except the Alliance does have a principle of universal rights that trumps member law right?

    *The President ''let'' Byron from a colony...too bad he did not do a bit of work and make them a real legal colony with some sort of official standing in the Alliance and not just ''well they are there."

    *The telepathic block, the Asimov, that Bester put in Garabaldi is a bit obvious. Wonder why Garabaldi did not think of it.

    *So is the flashback of Bester and Byron meant to be Byron's first ever field mission for the PsiCops? It would seem that people would not even get through PsiCop training without killing.

    *Telepath Terrorist wants a 747 fully fueled and a clear path to Neutral Territory. Kind of like the Neutral Territory where B5 is?

    *Anarchism--wow, Garabaldi gets thrown on a counter top and knocks over a vintage mid '90's IMB picture tube type computer monitor.

    *Peter's telekinetic tornado does not seem all that effective. Like he tosses junk around at like a mile an hour? And Zack just gives up? How about shoot a stun or smoke grenade in or something like that?

    *So back when the telepaths where just jerks and idiots, Captain Lockley was all like ''call in PsiCore to get rid of them!" But as soon as the telepahs get all violent she is like ''get rid of the psicops, we will handle them!" Is that right?

    *Guess P12 can telepathicaly communicate over like distances of several hundred feet at least? Wonder why we have not see this before?

    *It sure is nice of Bester and Byron to keep talking out loud during their telepathic talk.

    *The hazardous chemical pipe opens after ''guy seven'' falls against it. Seems a bit way too easy. Most such chemicals are not in the open in traffic areas...you know where someone can bump into them or fall against them. And it did not have a safety valve with like at least two locks.

    *And even more so it was some sort of explosive chemical? You generally take even more safety procedures with stuff like this...

    *So...suddenly Byron has safehouses, information and secrets? After he is dead? Er, why did he not use some of that stuff before?


    Final C, well it at least has plenty of action....and Bester. Mostly it is just getting rid of the telepaths. And the show did nothing to have us take the telepathy side. Really, you watch the show more agreeing with Bester :get rid of the annoying rebel telepaths.

  27. - Top - End - #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    So this is the mentioned Telepath War....sigh, how disappointing

    *And the Alliance agrees to let each each world govern their own people...well, except the Alliance does have a principle of universal rights that trumps member law right?

    *The telepathic block, the Asimov, that Bester put in Garabaldi is a bit obvious. Wonder why Garabaldi did not think of it.

    *So is the flashback of Bester and Byron meant to be Byron's first ever field mission for the PsiCops? It would seem that people would not even get through PsiCop training without killing.

    *Telepath Terrorist wants a 747 fully fueled and a clear path to Neutral Territory. Kind of like the Neutral Territory where B5 is?

    *Guess P12 can telepathicaly communicate over like distances of several hundred feet at least? Wonder why we have not see this before?

    *So...suddenly Byron has safehouses, information and secrets? After he is dead? Er, why did he not use some of that stuff before?
    I don't think it *is* the Telepath War? That was always implied to be telepaths rising up against mundanes, not telepath against telepath, and I don't think it was ever meant to happen during the five-year run of the show--it was more something that JMS could have used as a sequel series.

    - The Alliance does have some sort of overall bill of rights, but they're still working on finalising it, aren't they? Anyway, the Alliance isn't a confederation of states like the USA is, it's more like NATO, so it can't define internal policy of its member states.

    - Garibaldi isn't a telepath himself, how would he know that they can do things like the Asimov block? He probably thought Bester was entirely out of his head after he freed him on Mars.

    - I don't see killing as being a necessary part of PsiCop training? The problem is that the only real example we have of a PsiCop is Bester himself, and he might not be the norm. Maybe most PsiCops see killing as an unfortunately necessary part of their jobs sometimes, not the first response?

    - B5 isn't really neutral anymore, what with the headquarters of the Alliance being there. I assume they mean "Neutral" as in "not claimed by anybody so we'll be left in peace".

    - When has there been a situation before when two powerful telepaths were needing to communicate telepathically on the show?

    - Because Byron's a moron? I mean, seriously, has he made one single good decision since arriving on the station?

  28. - Top - End - #838
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    Day of the Dead

    The show does make the bit about how Zooty(Teller) never breaks character and talks....and it's even more amazing how much Teller stays in character in real life too...

    It is really a nice to see the bit about how each race has it's own humor.

    It is also really nice that the ghosts have a bit more knowledge then they ''should'' know...just adding to the mystery of death.

    And a message from Kosh!

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So G'Kar knows something is ''up'', but instead of saying something coherent he just sort of babbles and says nothing to stop the sale of the station.


    *So on a five mile long station the only place G'Kar can find to sleep outside of the Brekeri space is C and C? No where else?

    *The ghosts of the dead coming back to have chats seems to be pretty common, so why don't the Brakeri mention it? They keep it a secret for some reason? Why not tell people so they can prepare?

    *And G'Kar sleeps on the floor by the door like a dog? Really?

    *Why does the ''Effect'' trap everyone in their quarters?

    *One does wonder how the Day of the Dead ever got started? As it is a real event, it has to have some sort of real thing happening in reality.


    Final--B, This is a nice episode that builds on the TON of history of B5 over the last four years, and it can of course, only be done after years of a successful show. It's just two bad the whole cast did not get to meet a ghost: Doc Franklin and Marcus, Deleen and Dukot, Vir and Cartaza, Lyta and Byron and so on. Though you can sure mix up the people too....Lyta and Kosh, for example.

  29. - Top - End - #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *The ghosts of the dead coming back to have chats seems to be pretty common, so why don't the Brakeri mention it? They keep it a secret for some reason? Why not tell people so they can prepare?

    *Why does the ''Effect'' trap everyone in their quarters?
    - Couple of possibilities occur. Firstly, maybe the Brakiri just assume everyone knows about it so don't bother telling them? Alternatively, they might not think the Day of the Dead will affect non-Brakiri so don't see a need to tell them.

    - The "Effect" is doing some seriously weird stuff--I recall somebody saying at one point that a transmission from inside the zone of the Effect appeared to be coming from the Brakiri homeworld, despite being light-years away. That being the case, I don't think people being trapped in their quarters is the main thing to worry about!

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    The Ragged Edge

    Another episode


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *There is ''space'' between the space claimed by each race? Like an ''ocean''?

    *The mysterious raiders are hitting the between spaces...ok. But is that not an obvious place to attack...like maybe you should not even have ''open you can attack me here space''.

    *Bit odd that Garabaldi has his video phone in the bed room...and when he says ''receive'' it turns on the video? With him half dressed in bed, this seems like a bad idea.

    *So now the principles of the alliance have some sort of official legal binding on all the governments?

    *The new Interstellar Alliance Black Market sure got set up in like seconds.....

    *The Darazi Homeworld does not really look alien enough: stone columns, street lights, sliding doors, tall candles, balconies and K-mart furniture.

    *Is there any reason they don't use the Rangers to get the poor pilot? Is this not the perfect and exact sort of thing the Rangers do? A couple Rangers...really even one...would have been a huge help to Garabaldi.

    *So the Drac have the Regent send...um...Centari Palace Guards out to do Top Secret Impossible Missions? Is that right? Are there no Centari 007s? And, ok, like even if the Palace Guards are like super loyal to the Regent...like he says ''jump off a cliff'' and they plunge to their deaths....well, would this not be true of a lot of Centari? Most ''spy'' folks are loyal types, right? Or is this a super sneaky Drac plan to send out spies to be caught like Spies Like Us?

    *And even if you do send Centari Palace Guards out to do Top Secret Impossible Missions....is there some reason they wear their easily identifiable and obvious Centari Palace Guard uniform?

    *It's kinda odd Ta'Lon does not tell us (again) about the blood sword that must draw blood once it is drawn. It is a TV thing, of course, where a character ''has to'' oddly say things about things out loud so that we in the audience can hear it...even when people in the shows universe would know such things.

    *So when Doc Franklin gives his Big News...the camera does the pan out thing while on Sheridan, to give the feeling of loss and shock. But is it? It's like show wants us to react like Sheridan feels Doc is ''breaking up the family''. But Sheridan is already doing that by leaving himself.

    *And so....is Doc Franklin still part of Earthforce or Earthmed? Did he rejoin after season 4? If so then why does he still wear his Rebel Uniform and not a normal Earth uniform


    Final C, it's not a all that bad show, but nothing really stands out.

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