Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[factotum]

So Kosh is killed in the episode, and as we know Vorlons are ''ascended beings of thought and light'', there is no body to be found. But also there is no light show, explosion or anything else (like we will see when Not the Kosh is killed). Here Kosh just seems to wink out and die like a blown out candle.

Um, what? There was a light show that covered the entire station!

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• War Without End, Part One
• War Without End, Part Two

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[Darth Ultron]

War Without End, Part One

Sheridan and friends travel through time to steal Babylon 4 and send it 1000 years into the past.

*This might be the only time we see a friendly Vorlon working with the Minbari, other then Kosh and the other one from In The Begining.

*Ok, so the random message from B5 Timeline Two is sent to the current day station, on porpoise. For the reason of getting Garabaldi off the station so he won't meet Sinclair.

*OK, deep breath, everything...and I do mean everything in the episode and most of the history of the show is set up by the Vorlons(and Valen). The Vorlons(and Valen) of 1,000 years ago know everything. And they want everything to happen the way it did happen/the way they want it to happen/the way that is good for the Forces of Light. So this is the whole set up of: making sure the Great Machine is built on Epsilon 3 nea the dormant time rift, that the Machine has Time Travel Tech, that it gets ''left alone'', that the space sector is and stays ''neutral space'', that there is a Babylon Project that picks Epsilon 3 as the spot to put a station, and that all five stations get built.

And then once Earth year 2200 or so came around: make sure ''future history'' matches the ''past history'' Jeffrey Sinclair knew.

Of course it is a bit of an open question as to how much Past Jeff told Future Jeff. He might not have mentioned everything in detail. He might have said ''remember to not contaminate the timeline"(knowing Sinclar will get the bit about Zathrus) and said ''one might be lost, but don't worry they will be found again''(talking about Sheridan). Or he might have gone into details.

Things that don't Make Sense
*Garibaldi, super science wiz that he is, flies over to the rift in a starfury to take readings. Does a Starfury really have abilities to do this, being a fighter and all? Why not send some science types in a shuttle(you know, like they did last time).

*It would seem the Minbari tech does not advance much in 1,000 years?

*Guess the ''Allies of the Shadows'' had a visual record from a 1,000 years ago too?

*So Epsilon 3 auto records stuff in the space around it? Wonder if anyone every asked to look at them?

*Sinclair sure picks ''groups of two'' that your average 30/40 year old writer in the '90's might pick.

*So why does the White Star time travel to like five minutes before the bad guys blow up Babylon 4?

*Wonder where the ''Allies of the Shadows'' got their shadow fighters from?

*And the White Star is now immune to Shadow Fighter blaster fire? Because it has been shot so many times by Shadow Fighters?

Final- A, This episode is exciting because season one's "Babylon Squared" was one of the best and most intriguing episodes of the first season, and this two-parter promises to show the other half of that story. The things happening to Babylon 4 in that episode seemed so chaotic and arbitrary that it's hard to believe that our heroes were the cause of them.

This episode largely ratchets up the excitement and suspense, but absolutely nothing is resolved. We are left wondering what Sheridan's "clear path" is, and why he has been acting with such finality toward others. Why is Delenn worried about him?

[factotum]

*So why does the White Star time travel to like five minutes before the bad guys blow up Babylon 4?

I'm pretty sure they missed their aiming point by a day or two. Also, there's not a lot of time in between the station becoming operational and it getting pulled into the past.

The more obvious question ought to be: why didn't the Shadows try to blow the station up earlier, while it was still under construction?

Anyway, my thoughts on these episodes:

Obviously there are retcons here, because of Michael O'Hare's unfortunate departure from the show after season 1. I'm pretty sure that this stuff would originally have happened near the end of the show's run, with Sinclair being naturally 20-odd years older, and all the stuff about him getting aged by the time vortex or whatever would not have occurred. Impossible to say for sure now, of course, since only JMS knows and I don't think he tells!

War Without End, part 1: "Ranger One" is interrupted by an aide who gives him a message that's been locked away in the vaults for 900 years. He takes off his hood to reveal our old friend, Jeffrey Sinclair, who reads the message and travels to B5. He explains that they need to go and help B4. Meanwhile, Garibaldi is investigating a temporal rift in Sector 14 and finds a message from B5 8 days in the future, which is apparently under attack by the Shadows at that time.

The White Star with Delenn, Sinclair etc aboard is en route to the rift. Delenn explains that Babylon 4 was taken into the past to use as a base in the last Shadow War a thousand years ago, and Sinclair asks Sheridan to order Garibaldi to return to the station, without telling him he's on board. Zathras arrives from Epsilon 3 and equips everyone with "time stabilisers" to stop them getting unstuck in time, and they all go through the time rift to destroy the Shadow agents who are attacking B4. Sheridan's time stabiliser breaks, though, and he finds himself in a Centauri prison cell 17 years in the future, where Emperor Londo Mollari shows him that the darkness has come to Centauri Prime...

War Without End, part 2: In the future, Delenn is brought to Sheridan in his cell and tells him their son David is safe. The two of them are brought before a drunken Mollari, who reveals he's under the control of a Keeper (a sort of eye monster attached to his neck)--the alcohol has dulled the creature's senses, allowing him to be himself. He sets free the two of them in return for a promise they'll save Centauri Prime. Then G'Kar enters and starts strangling Londo at the latter's request--the Keeper awakes and compels Londo to fight back, so the two of them end up killing each other. Vir enters, sees the bodies, and picks up the Imperial Seal, while Delenn desperately tells Sheridan not to go to Z'Ha'Dum before he gets pulled back in time.

Sheridan ends up in a space suit that Zathras has jury-rigged with a time stabiliser. They get the equipment set up for the big time shift, but a power surge sends Sheridan off through time again and puts Babylon 4 four years into the future--this is where it shows up in "Babylon Squared". Sinclair is aged by the time field as they approach their natural time, thus appearing much older. Zathras is then captured while attempting to repair Sheridan's time stabiliser, and we get a repeat of the events from "Babylon Squared" only from the other viewpoint--Sheridan in a blue space suit appears in a corridor, and Sinclair from the old timeline is thrown back when he touches him (speculation: the blue-suited figure was originally supposed to be Sinclair from War Without End, which makes that perhaps more sensible); meanwhile Zathras gives the time stabiliser to the suited figure, who vanishes. A falling beam traps Zathras, who tells the original Sinclair to leave. Sinclair and Garibaldi leave the station while War Without End Sheridan tries to send a message to Garibaldi to watch his back, but fails. The blue-suited person removes the helmet, revealing it to be Delenn, who presumably swapped into the suit at some point off camera.

They prepare to leave the station, but somebody has to remain behind to keep the place running. Sinclair steps up for this as if he's always known it was his destiny. While the White Star flies away, Delenn explains that, a thousand years ago, human souls started ending up in Minbari bodies; and her people would never have accepted the station if they'd found an alien aboard, to which Marcus exclaims, "A Minbari not born of Minbari!".

A thousand years ago Minbari scouts find the station. Sinclair is there, having been transformed by the Triluminary (the same gizmo that made Delenn part human) into a Minbari, flanked by two Vorlons; he introduces himself as Valen, and says there is much work to be done.

Afterthoughts: Where did the Triluminary come from? It seems to have been taken back into the past by Sinclair/Valen, and from there was kept as a relic until the present day by the Minbari, whereupon Sinclair takes it into the past, etc. Nobody ever seems to have created it! Also, if the Keeper controls Londo's actions, how can it not tell that he plans to get drunk in order to sideline it?

Inconsistencies: I went back and looked at the Wikipedia article for this episode after watching it, and there's a handy guide there as to inconsistences between this and "Babylon Squared". Most are fairly banal, but there are a couple of interesting ones. For example, in Babylon Squared the space-suited "One" who appears near the end is clearly male, but in WWE this turns out to be Delenn--is that a change forced by the whole Sinclair leaving thing? Also, Major Krantz is fully aware of the Shadow fusion bomb and potentially hostile intruders aboard in War Without End, yet he never mentioned any of this to Sinclair or Garibaldi back in Babylon Squared, which you'd think would be an important thing to bring up!

I so, so wish JMS would publish the original plan for B5 so we can see how the broadcast series differed, I think it would be fascinating to see the changes.

[Darth Ultron]

War Without End, Part Two

Delenn and her allies successfully send Babylon 4 to the past.

Where did the Triluminary come from? Well, it might have come from Epsilon 3. They have time travel tech, galaxy wide scanners and other tech. So, sure, why not have soul scanning/race jummping tech too? OR......it comes from the Vorlons.

We know the Vorlons have advanced genetics and other such biological technology. And they absolutely had to set up the whole Epsilon 3/Great Machine/Bablyon 5 built there plot. So all they needed to do was put the Triluminary in a box on Epsilon 3, with the time travel tech, and a note 500 years ago.

So, Jeffery Now Valen gets to the past...and calls the Vorlons. But it had to be more then ''hey guys I'm Valen, lets fight the Shadows! Pwe Pew!'', kind of a lot more like he would have to tell them EVERYTHING, and I do mean everything. There is really no way around it. The Vorlons of 2260 know all about it.

Also Valen would need a ton of help to:

A)Keep the timeline clean

B)Set up the future galactic history.

The first one is hard enough. B4 is full of Earth stuff...from the future. So they must make sure no one, say turns on a computer on the station and reads the History file. And he must make sure that after the war everything B4 is destroyed.

Then the future history of everything they want to happen must be set up and watched over so that it does happen.

*To the Death-Well, we see Londo's vision of the future come true.....

*Kosh Cameo- We know Kosh knew Valen...so it would have been nice to see them meet...

Things that don't Make Sense

*So the plan was to attach the Time Machine and send B4 back in time, as per the ''original plan''. But did they have a plan to evacuate the B4 people?

*And..well, everyone knows B4 returns in 2258, and it will/has happened. So, why did they not plan for it to happen? They just leave it to chance, like ''oh, good thing that everything is happening the way it should be happening while we just stand here and watch.''

And everyone knows Zathrus must meet Season One Sinclar and Garibaldi, yet everyone just ''does nothing'' and lets it happen.

So, it's odd Major Krants does not mention the nuclear bomb blast to Season One Sinclar and Garibaldi.

Sue is amazing that the pole falls on Zathrus and traps him(like it did before). Really, this should have been someone ''making the pole fall''.

Do not go to Zah'Ha'Dom!-So knowing she should not change the past, Deleen still tells Sheridan this...but I guess it is a good thing he ignores her advice.

Deleen talks about the ''cost'' of the war....but once we know the story, it is not ''that much?'' Sure war is horrible and all, but it is not like a zillion zillion people died or anything.

So...um, time travel to the present from the recent past ages poor Sinclair, but the 1,000 year trip to the past has no ill effects?

Hum, so Sinclair has his Valen letter to himself....but does he put that letter in the lock box or write the letter for ''the first time''. Guess he could copy it world for word or just ''write what he wants'' as it will be the letter anyway.

The 1,000 year old Minbari cruisers sure look a lot like the current day model.
The 1,000 year old Minbari fighters look exactly the same as the current day model.
The 1,000 year old Minbari warrior caste out fit looks exactly the same as the current day model.

Kinda wonder how ''advanced'' the 1,000 year old Minbari are? They have spaceships and fighters, but what else? Is any 2200's Earth Tech more advanced then what they have? Or does Valen make sure that does not happen.


Final- A, a great ending to a great story.

[HandofShadows]

The 1,000 year old Minbari cruisers sure look a lot like the current day model.
The 1,000 year old Minbari fighters look exactly the same as the current day model.

Sorry, no. While they ahve a very similar style, they are clearly different ships. The old cruise is much longer than the newer versions. The fighter have only one pylon on them while current ones have 3. Check the B5 Wiki (I did).

[factotum]

*So the plan was to attach the Time Machine and send B4 back in time, as per the ''original plan''. But did they have a plan to evacuate the B4 people?

Well, they arguably didn't need one, because they knew that had already happened and it would be the mother of all paradoxes if it didn't occur. It would have been nice if they'd actually planned to project B4 four years into the future rather than it all being an accident, definitely.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, they arguably didn't need one, because they knew that had already happened and it would be the mother of all paradoxes if it didn't occur. It would have been nice if they'd actually planned to project B4 four years into the future rather than it all being an accident, definitely.

I know the idea is ''destiny'' will happen....but other then Sinclair, none of them knew it would just happen. So they really should have had a ''pre destination paradox'' type plan like-"Ok, we know B4 pops out of time in 2258 and get evacuated, so Zarhtus we need to make a small time jump to the future.

The way the episode goes is everyone knows that will happen, but oddly acts like ''well we will steal B4 and send it back in time and..um..what crew of 2,000 humans?"

Of course, it is also amazing that the ''accident'' does send B4 ahead in time, just to evacuate all the humans......but, of course, the Great Machine did have a record of that happening, right? So the Great Machine of time stamp 2260 knew everything that happened with B4, as it recorded it all....so maybe it set everything up to happen.

[factotum]

Just thinking about this, I would really still like to know how this story would have panned out if Michael O'Hare hadn't left. It presumably would have had to be one of the last things that happened in the series, since he goes back in time and becomes Valen--but by that point he's already learned that the Vorlons are not quite as angelic as they make themselves out to be, so why would he work with them in the past? Would that purely be to make the timeline right?

Also, how would the Minbari learn that he is "not born of Minbari"? The whole reason for him undergoing the change was because they wouldn't have trusted an alien on the station, and that trust could just as easily be lost if he revealed his origins.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd guess ''the War Without End'' would have been at the end of Season 5? Sinclair goes to the past and saves the universe.

I think the original plan was to have B5 destroyed at the end of Season 3, so season 4 would be the cast more ''on the run''/win the shadow war, and Season 5 would be vs Earth and reset time.

Sinclair/Valen trusts the Vorlons as sure they are not perfect angels, but they are still good guys....and, of course, the Shadows are worse.

The Minbari do know Valen ''was not born of Minbari''....but they do not know ''what'' he was born from. It does not get overly mentioned to avoid the comparison with ''you know who''. A lot of famous fictional folk, like King Arthur, and Darth Vader have ''mysterious births''.

[factotum]

I think the original plan was to have B5 destroyed at the end of Season 3, so season 4 would be the cast more ''on the run''/win the shadow war, and Season 5 would be vs Earth and reset time.

Wow, I'd never heard that? Would appreciate if you could find a citation that the station as supposed to be destroyed partway through the series originally. (I suppose that would match up with the prophecies of the station blowing up and Sinclair being swept away by a panicking crowd, though...).

[GloatingSwine]

Just thinking about this, I would really still like to know how this story would have panned out if Michael O'Hare hadn't left. It presumably would have had to be one of the last things that happened in the series, since he goes back in time and becomes Valen.

Sinclair was always going to be replaced. Michael O'Hare's health was already a massive problem for him in season 1, so it was planned for well in advance.

The real changes due to external factors didn't really kick in until the latter half of season 4. The original season 4 finale was supposed to be Intersections in Real Time, with the ECW extending into season 5 roughly the amount the Shadow War did in season 3. That would have meant the telepath arc in season 5 was considerably shorter and had less obnoxious Byron.

[Timeras]

Wow, I'd never heard that? Would appreciate if you could find a citation that the station as supposed to be destroyed partway through the series originally. (I suppose that would match up with the prophecies of the station blowing up and Sinclair being swept away by a panicking crowd, though...).

I'm not sure where I read this, but it seems the original plan was that B5 would be destroyed and the following seasons would formally be a sequel show called "Babylon Prime". The Protagonists would steal Babylon 4, but not to send it back in time. Instead they would use it to replace B5. Sinclair wasn't supposed to become Valen.

[factotum]

Hmmm, yes, the Wikipedia article on Babylon 4 says that about Babylon Prime too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_4

Have to say, I can't imagine just how loudly the fans would have screamed if B5 finished with all those dangling plot threads unresolved--remember the backlash about the ending of Lost? This would have been ten times worse than that!

[tomandtish]

Sinclair was always going to be replaced. Michael O'Hare's health was already a massive problem for him in season 1, so it was planned for well in advance.

Yes and no. The out they used was written in (as it was for all main characters). It wasn't until they finished production on season 1 that they made the decision.

Spoiler: JMS 5/20/1994

Show

Over the last few weeks, we've been re-activating our cast, making the deals for the coming season. One aspect of this has been a series of conversations with Michael O'Hare. Having produced one full season, and having learned a lot, and having fine-tuned the "saga" along the way, it was our goal to expand the show, bring in some new characters, and take the show in some new directions, which will prove quite interesting, I think. (One sidelight to all this: now that we've established the series, we'll be able to spend a bit more time on personal stories, to let our audience learn more about the characters, particularly the humans, who kinda got short shrift this season.)

There is also the question, from an actor's point of view, about other opportunities, any possible concern about typecasting, the limitations of a continuing role (and the role of the commander does have some definite "walls," giving more freedom in many ways to other characters). Now is the point where one needs to take a breath and assess one's future, because the deeper we get into the story, the more problematic it is to change things (though, again, it's do-able, as noted above).

As a result of these discussions, it has been agreed that we will have a separation, in the role of the commander. Let me emphasize this very clearly, so there is no chance of miscommunication: this is a mutual, amicable, and friendly separation. This isn't a Tasha Yar situation. Moreover, we will be handling this in such a way that, down the road, Sinclair could potentially return to the story. The character of Sinclair will achieve an important destiny, and the mystery of the Battle of the Line will be explained, both in the first episode of the new season. His story will still track. And the series will still track precisely as planned. I take pains to mention this because both Michael and I want it clear that we both believe in the show, and want this in no way to interfere with the series. He has asked me to convey for him his encouragement, his best wishes, and to emphasize that this is, again, an amicable and friendly separation.

He has said that he is happy to continue to do the conventions, to promote the show, because he believes in it, and because he is an important part of this season's success. We can think of no finer ambassador for Babylon 5 at conventions than Michael O'Hare. He is a dynamite speaker, he cares about the fans of the show, and his compassion shows. We think he's a nifty guy.

On our part, we wish Michael only the very best. We know that he is very much in demand, and look forward to seeing him in other projects over the next year. This will also allow us to pursue some new directions avenues for the show that will help to expedite the overall story. Sinclair disappearing for an indeterminate period after the events of "Chrysalis" will allow us to tighten the screws of the story, and heighten the tension of things going on in the storyline.

If I can speak personally for a moment...those of you reading this on-line know that I've always talked straight with you. If I thought this in any way would interfere with the story, you'd hear about it from me loud and clear. When problems have arisen in the past, I've always spoken about them quite bluntly here (much to the chagrin of some people). This is okay. We're all still very much friends. I speak frequently to Michael, and consider him a friend, just as he considers me a friend. This was a hard decision, but we both knew that it was the right decision, for very different reasons. We both kinda came to the same place at the same time from different directions. We've got to do what's right for the show, and for each other, and in many ways, this does just that.

So both we on the show, and Michael are served by this mutual and amicable separation. We will go our separate ways for now, with the possibility of meeting Sinclair again down the road a piece, as Gandalf disappeared for a time into Mordor, only to return when needed most. (We will also be keeping the character of Sinclair alive in the comic, and some of the planned novels, to keep that option available to us.)

Once again, let me emphasize that the story continues on the path that has been set for it, everything you learn this season sill obtains, the show remains solid, with all of the other cast members coming back for a new season, and that the saga of Babylon 5 will continue to reveal itself exactly as planned. And I hope you will continue to stay with us for that journey.

Of course, it was much, much later that we found out the actual reason why they decided to have the conversation. They did a good job of keeping his personal reasons quiet. This is one of the few times you can argue that JMS "lied" to his audience by misdirection, but I support the call.

But he was never "always going to be replaced". It was a safety net that they had in place for all the characters.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Walkabout
• Grey 17 Is Missing
• And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

I also have a suggestion for a Season 4 viewing schedule, but I'm not to attached to it if anyone has other suggestions. I don't have any great ideas about how to break up 4 in particular (no particular episode groups jump out at me, partially because most of the plot points of Season 4 after the first 6 episodes are kind of all running together for me right now), and I'm not really sure what to do about two of the tv movies: In The Beginning (which takes place much earlier in the continuity, but includes information revealed in Season 4 of the show) and Thirdspace (which takes place during Season 4). Currently, I've thrown them both in at the end of Season 4, but I am very open to some other idea if anyone feels strongly or has a clever idea.

October 8th:
The Hour of the Wolf
Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
The Summoning

October 15th:
Falling Toward Apotheosis
The Long Night
Into the Fire

October 22nd:
Epiphanies
The Illusion of Truth
Atonement

October 29th:
Racing Mars
Lines of Communication
Conflicts of Interest

November 5th:
Rumors, Bargains and Lies
Moments of Transition
No Surrender, No Retreat

November 12th:
The Exercise of Vital Powers
The Face of the Enemy
Intersections in Real Time

November 19th:
Between the Darkness and the Light
Endgame
Rising Star

November 26th:
The Deconstruction of Falling Stars
In The Beginning (tv movie about Minbari war)?
Thirdspace (tv movie that takes place during season 4)?

Anyway, opinions and suggestions welcome - I'd like to post the Season 4 schedule next weekend.

[Darth Ultron]

Walkabout

Franklin goes on a trip to find himself. Sheridan uses Lyta to test whether telepaths can counter the Shadows.

Swedish Meatballs/Breen as a great universal mystery....

I really hate the Walking Doc and Dying Singer Plot....skip.

I do really like the Big Picture ''this is why we don't run things like the military by community''.

''And so it begins..."

Things that don't Make Sense

Ivoniva gets all concerned that the captain goes for a walk, but why?

The maintenance log keeps track of how many times each door on the station is opened?

Er, if Kosh Too is attempting to pretend to be Kosh...then why the different encounter suit and ship? I guess no one will notice that after three years ''Kosh'' suddenly gets a new suit and ship?

So Kosh Too and Lyta have their first meeting in a random hallway?

Sheridan sure dances around just saying ''Kosh was a telepath''(for no reason?)

The ''line of sight'' restriction for telepaths seems a bit odd for space. How far can a human ''see'' in space, like a couple miles sort of? Well...space is really, really, really big....

And the Minbari telepaths are just in a room...don't they need line of sight too? Or are they like P30's with Sight Beyond Sight or something?

Guess Shadow Battlecrabs don't have anything like that ''Vorlon adsorb energy and just leave the impact'' technology.

So the Minbari communicator shows the other captain as a cute little doll sized hologram. And that little captain is looking up... So what does the little captain see on his bridge? It would seem he would not be seeing a mini Sheridan as he is looking up.

So singer lady used Doc Franklin's card to get drugs? What with no PIN? Or voice code? Dna check or anything?

And is ''Space Morphine'' not a controlled substance in 2260? And if it is, a Doc can't prescribe drugs to themselves, right?

So Lyta tells Kosh Too ''I think someone has a piece of Kosh One''. And Kosh Too is just like ''ok, forget about that ''? Odd, you'd think he'd say ''Oh really, who?"

Final- B, the singer stuff is a drag, but the rest of the episode is great.

[factotum]

The ''line of sight'' restriction for telepaths seems a bit odd for space. How far can a human ''see'' in space, like a couple miles sort of? Well...space is really, really, really big....

They can see further in space than they would be able to on a planet. The main thing that blocks your vision on the surface of a planet is the atmosphere, and even if that's preternaturally clear, the curvature of the surface prevents you seeing more than a certain distance. In space, neither restriction applies, so you would easily be able to see things at a good long distance--I believe a typical human eye can distinguish things at an angular resolution of about 0.02 degrees, which would correspond to an object a little over 3 feet across at the 2 mile distance you mentioned. Shadow ships are rather larger than that, needless to say! (Although there are later episodes where Minbari telepaths lying on beds inside their ships are able to take down Shadow vessels, so maybe the line of sight thing is a human limitation? Or JMS just forgot about it later on!).

Anyway, my thoughts on these episodes:

Walkabout: All the stuff with Dr Franklin and the singer is rubbish, frankly. The meat of the episode is about Lyta learning that Sheridan has a piece of the old Kosh in him (although her telling new Kosh about that doesn't seem to go anywhere that I recall), and Sheridan's attempt to take down a Shadow vessel, working on the theory that a telepath can shut them down. He's originally promised help by the Narn, but the Narn warleader aboard the ship refuses to go, which leads to one of the best parts of the episode--Garibaldi throwing G'Kar's book back at him, and saying that they shouldn't have bothered protecting the cruiser when the Centauri came for it. "In my book--and your book--that makes it your responsibility".

Out in space, Sheridan manages to track down a Shadow ship and Lyta is initially unable to stop it, until she sees Kosh's death in Sheridan's mind; then she toughens up right sharpish and disables the ship. Sheridan uses all the White Star's power to destroy the vessel, but that means its jumpdrives are offline when a second Shadow ship arrives, and Lyta is unconscious after her earlier efforts. Things are looking bad, but then the Narn cruiser jumps in and fires on the Shadow ship; Sheridan takes advantage of the distraction to turn and add his own firepower, destroying the ship. Guess Garibaldi's words got through to G'Kar!

Overall: Episode would be improved by having more or less anything other than Franklin making doe eyes at a singer on his "Walkabout" as a main plot section, but them's the breaks.

Grey 17 is Missing: OK, this is popularly known as the worst ever episode of B5, but we'll go into this with an open mind...right? Anyway, it's notable that this episode contains an instance of a non-firing Chekov's Gun--Garibaldi is seen cleaning an antique .38 revolver near the beginning of the episode, but the gun itself is never seen again. JMS admits this was a deliberate subversion of the trope.

Delenn is being asked to take over as Ranger One. She's not very happy about this, but Neroon is even less happy, believing that she's a religious zealot who created a power vacuum (by destroying the Grey Council) in order to occupy it herself. He threatens to kill her, something a Minbari has not done to another Minbari in over a thousand years. Delenn tells Lennier of the meeting but makes him promise to not tell the Captain, so he tells Marcus instead--who intercepts Neroon and challenges him to a traditional Minbari fight to the death. He loses quite badly, and Neroon says that as a human he could back away from this, but he says "We live for the One and would die for the One!". Neroon walks into Delenn's investiture ceremony and drops a bloodied staff on the floor, saying that there is blood between the humans and the Warrior Caste--they would not die for him, but he believes they *would* die for Delenn. Lennier finds Marcus and takes him to Medlab, where Neroon later arrives to speak to him. He says Marcus was willing to die for someone not of his own species, whereas Neroon himself was willing to kill his own kind; that makes Marcus a better Minbari than Neroon. Marcus says, "Next time you want a revelation, could you possibly find a way that's not quite so uncomfortable?" and Neroon laughs.

Ivanova is going to find Franklin to get the information about the telepath railroad he set up. Er, that makes no sense, because she took over that railroad some time ago? She even mocked up Sheridan as a Centauri to put on the official documents! This seems to be a pointless attempt to keep Franklin involved in things while he's continuing his walkabout.

Garibaldi is being asked to investigate the disappearance of a tech, and while looking at the site he was last seen, he has an argument with her about how many Grey levels there are--one says 29, the other says 30, a "mixup on the blueprints" due to the speed of construction of the station. Er, no, that's codswallop, you don't build a skyscraper without knowing how many floors it has. Anyway, he goes into the lift and times how long it takes to go between floors, and finds it takes twice as long to go between 16 and 17, so he stops the lift in between floors and gets out into a junk-filled level, whereupon he gets shot by a tranquilliser dart from a ventriloquist's dummy. (That scene was much scarier when they did it in "Live and Let Die", by the way ). There's a group of...let's call them absolute nutters living in here, who believe the Universe is sentient and will probably get it all right after the next big bang. They're led by Jeremiah (a criminally wasted Robert Englund). Apparently these guys have also imported a Zarg because they're one of the most perfect life-forms in the universe, but also the most dangerous--this is what killed the worker who disappeared in the first place. They defeat the beast by using the bullets from the gun earlier--Garibaldi loads them into some sort of tube and uses heat to fire them. (Would that actually work? Not too sure about the ins and outs of guns). He escapes.

Overall: I may have said earlier that this episode was the one that disproved the theory that bad B5 is always at least watchable. I think I have to revise that assessment, because the stuff with Delenn, Marcus and Neroon is excellent, totally top tier. The rest, though, is unmitigated garbage that isn't fun and makes no sense. The whole idea that they could somehow build a level into the station that nobody knows about is ridiculous to start with, and then to have this cult somehow getting in there and setting up shop? Nonsense from beginning to end.

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place: Again, we have three sections to this episode. We have religious leaders from Earth turning up to meet Brother Theo on the station--but these are actually part of an organised resistance to Clark's rule back on Earth, bringing intelligence to the station. They also want to hold a religious ceremony on the station, which is intercut nicely with the end of...

...the Mollari plot. Londo tells Vir he intends to capture G'Kar, so he sends him to tell the Narn that they have Na'Toth (G'Kar's assistant from a while back) captive on Narn. This will cause G'Kar to go to Narn to rescue her, allowing Mollari to capture him, which will earn him kudos from the Centauri minister who's on the station to determine who's better, Refa or Mollari. Refa kidnaps Vir and mind-rips this plot from him with a telepath, so Refa decides to go to Narn and capture G'Kar himself. Turns out, however, that Londo's plan was for him to do that all along--he's promised to release 2000 imprisoned Narns in return for Refa getting killed by G'Kar, with the only proviso being that his head and face must be intact (for identification) and a data crystal must be left on the body. This data crystal shows how Refa betrayed the Centauri, thus ensuring house Mollari will come out ahead in this particular race. Vir is obviously furious that Londo lied to him, though.

The other issue is that Sheridan is burning the candle at both ends, and he shocks Delenn at one point when he says the Shadows are crowding refugees into zones where they can be killed to seriously damage the Alliance's morale, saying "It's what I'd do". Even when he says they have to think like the enemy Delenn bundles him out saying he's been working too hard. She forces him to attend the religious ceremony, and then gives him good news--the Minbari have been busy, and they now have an entire fleet of White Star class ships to bring to bear in the coming battles.

Overall: Well, anything has to be an improvement over "Grey 17", but this is a genuinely good episode. It has some emotional heft with both the Sheridan/Delenn storyline and the Refa/Mollari one, and the way Refa's terrified attempts to escape from the Narn are intercut with the hymns being sung at the ceremony on B5 is masterful work--props to the editor there!

[Thufir]

Ivanova is going to find Franklin to get the information about the telepath railroad he set up. Er, that makes no sense, because she took over that railroad some time ago? She even mocked up Sheridan as a Centauri to put on the official documents!

Uh, no she didn't? Sheridan as a Centauri was her taking over Vir's operation smuggling Narns away from the Centauri occupation. The telepath railroad I'm pretty sure we've heard nothing about since A Race Through Dark Places.

I may have said earlier that this episode was the one that disproved the theory that bad B5 is always at least watchable. I think I have to revise that assessment, because the stuff with Delenn, Marcus and Neroon is excellent, totally top tier. The rest, though, is unmitigated garbage that isn't fun and makes no sense.

I was somewhat surprised when I found out how widely Grey 17 is Missing was reviled by the fans, because I really liked it... or rather, I really liked the half of it which has nothing to do with the title. The other half I tend to fast forward through when rewatching, but the fight between Marcus and Neroon is one of my favourite scenes in the entire series.

[factotum]

Uh, no she didn't? Sheridan as a Centauri was her taking over Vir's operation smuggling Narns away from the Centauri occupation.

D'oh! *slaps forehead* Yeah, I messed that up. OK, then, it makes a bit more sense in that case.

[Darth Ultron]

Grey 17 Is Missing

Garibaldi gets trapped in a "missing" level of the station. Delenn becomes head of the Rangers.

This episode contains a really obvious and literal Chekhov's Gun.

Foreshadowing- Note when Neroon says the Minbari religious caste are building ''ships''

This episode is a great tiny bit of a good Marcus episode...where he knows he can't win the fight, but never gives up...

So Rangers stand on the bridge and none shall pass...humm, sounds like I have heard that before...


Things that don't Make Sense

There sure do seem to be ''a lot'' of telepaths suddenly on B5. Telepaths were ''rare'', but now there are hundreds of them.

Doc Franklin purged his files, but kept a back up? Generally this is not smart, when you ''purge'' you get rid of it all. And he just kept it on his computer where anyone could find it?

So Garibaldi pulls his vintage gun out of the closet..at home...and then takes it and a handful of bullets to work to play with..why again?

So there is a level Grey 17, so it is not missing....but there would be no Grey 30, right? The levels would stop at 29.

Jeremiah says Grey 17 is sealed....so how did the zarg get out to eat the poor red shirt guy?

And who cleaned up after the zarg attack?

So why does Nerron ''go into hiding'' after he makes the threat on Deleen?

The universe is alive according to Jeremiah and makes itself ''people'' to try and understand itself....this is very similar to other such philosophies on the show, most notably

Der-Hand the Pike Teacher- Kinda makes you wonder who this guy was that he trained both Nerron and Marcus. He can't be Minbari warrior caste, right, because why would one of them train a human ranger? And it seems odd that a ''great pike master warrior'' would be religious caste. And if Der-Hand was religious, why would he teach warrior caste guys, and why would they want him as a teacher?

Is Deleen holding a goblet of wine during the Ranger Ceremony? I though Minbari did not drink? Or is it just grape juice or something?

Nerron, being Gray, knows the whole Minbari/Human souls story....but he does not seem to know Sinclair is Valen? So did Deleen and the others not tell the galaxy this fact? Or did they just come back and say ''oh Sinclar Ranger One is gone, no questions"?

So the zarg is a humanoid, but is just a ''wild instinct'' hunter? No language or intelligence or anything else? It just eats?

How the the cult people even get the zarg onto the station? And how did they get it to ''missing 17'?

We only see a couple, so, how big is the cult? If the zarg even eats only like once a week, they would still run out of people to feed it fast. Unless they kept ''recruiting more''.

Sure Garibaldi was playing with the gun in the morning, but why did he even have the bullets in his pocket in the first place?

The the steam pipe ''gun'' ...oh, my gosh, was that so dumb. At least Kirk's bamboo cannon is possible(per Mythbusters).


Final- F, ugh, one of the worst episodes ever. This plot was awful, awful, awful. Besides all the loopholes, the effects on the zarg were terrible. This plot had no point to it, either, which was especially frustrating when the episodes lately have been so important either in terms of the overall plot of the series or for character development. Ultimately, the Delenn/Neroon/Marcus plot is the only reason to watch this episode.

[Zarrgon]

Grey 17 is Missing: OK, this is popularly known as the worst ever episode of B5,

Worst episode ever? What about Season Five?

[Knaight]

Worst episode ever? What about Season Five?

What about Season Five? Admittedly I'm still a few episodes off from the ending, but thus far it's been decent. It's the finale of Season 4 that really stands out as the garbage episode of the show, with the occasional weak episode throughout earlier seasons.

[Darth Ultron]

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

The ramp-up to the season finale begins with this darkly intricate entry. Londo gets his revenge on Refa, while Sheridan gets some moral relief when religious delegates from Earth arrive.

The Londo double cross is nice.....

And the Refa death song scene is really nice...I have seen many of these types of sequences, alternating opposite emotions, but this is really one of the very best. No matter how many times I see the episode, it still surprises me when the music comes up and when I realize how appropriate the first words are ("no hiding place") to Refa, I want to laugh. But then, of course, it seems horrible to laugh at someone being beaten to death. The whole sequence is quite uncomfortable, which I'm sure was the intention.

Things that don't Make Sense

Again, there sure are a lot of telepaths, that were ''rare'' before....

Pastor Will hides the secret data crystals in his bible and that makes them safe somehow?

And speaking of telepaths, Refa just happens to have one too...

Kind of odd Will just wanders in to Sheridan's office...

Time just makes no sense in this episode....Day one Londo starts his plan and has Vir tell G'kar as Refa gets to the station with the minister. Then G'kar and Refa zoom off the station. Then like less then a day later G'kar and Refa are both on Narn? Then...that day, the Narn kill Refa...and the news gets back to B5, where the minister is still there for some reason? And Londo puts the icing on the cake.

Lots of Space-Well the War Room galaxy map is nice...except it might be too big. It shows Shadow attacks like hundreds of light years apart...yet, oddly, most of the show seems to take place in like a 25 light year sphere or so...

How does one ''go around'' a part of space when your jummping through hyperspace?

Londo saves Vir? Wounder why he did not just hire a thug?


Final A, the Londo/Refa material is compelling, and the climax is nothing short of riveting.

[factotum]

Worst episode ever? What about Season Five?

Overall the quality of season 5 was much lower than the previous four, but I don't think there was a single episode in it that was as bad as Grey 17, and it did have a few stand-out ones (like "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari").

How does one ''go around'' a part of space when your jummping through hyperspace?

Same way you'd go around something in real space? It's clear throughout the series that ships can freely manoeuvre while in hyperspace, or else it wouldn't be possible for them to "get lost" or "lose the beacon".

[Darth Ultron]

Worst episode ever? What about Season Five?

I kind of like Season 5 myself. It is something you don't see much on TV: the after effects. You see the big drama and then the show/season ends, but nothing else.

It is nice that B5 is bookended like: 1-Prolog 2-4 ARC 5-Epoliuge.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Shadow Dancing
• Z'ha'dum

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

I've also posted the Season 4 schedule in the first post.

[Knaight]

I kind of like Season 5 myself. It is something you don't see much on TV: the after effects. You see the big drama and then the show/season ends, but nothing else.

It is nice that B5 is bookended like: 1-Prolog 2-4 ARC 5-Epoliuge.

The last few episodes were pretty bad, and I could see how remembering those would lead to an impression that the whole season was. With that said, the first two thirds or so were solid - I missed Ivanova, but that's about it.

[Darth Ultron]

- I missed Ivanova, but that's about it.

Well, you would miss any character (poor Marcus :( ).

But it is nice to see the change. A lot of shows, like Star Trek:The Next Generation, have characters like Riker who oddly ''stay on the ship/show'' even when it makes no sense. Or like Captain Plicard stays a captain as it is ''cool'', but Janeway gets promoted to Admiral after Voyager.

[Knaight]

Well, you would miss any character (poor Marcus :( ).

There was a pretty solid cast in Season 4, true (Marcus included). Most of the more minor characters which got dropped early weren't as good, and thus were less likely to be missed (Talia, the singer that Franklin has a thing with, etc.), at least those not named Na'Toth.