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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *So are the Vorlons and the 'alliance' still allies?

    *And why does Kosh Two even hang out on the station? To spy on the weak, meaningless other races? Um, why?
    I think what it comes down to is this: yes, the Vorlons *do* believe they are still allies with the younger races, which is why Kosh remains on the station. In two episodes' time the Vorlon avatar will ask Sheridan why he's fighting them, since they want the same thing--to destroy the Shadows; she'd have no reason to do that if they didn't believe they were allies up to that point. As for why they don't replace Kosh or realise he's missing, even grand master telepaths don't have infinite range--yes, the Vorlon government might suspect something when Kosh doesn't report in for a while, but there isn't much time between Kosh's death and the Coriana 6 battle.

    Oh, and I have to take issue with your assessment that the Vorlons (or the Shadows for that matter) see the other races as meaningless. The whole point of what they're doing--and the reason Sheridan and Delenn were able to persuade them to leave--is because they see themselves as guardians of the younger races. Do parents see their children as meaningless? Essentially, what happens here is that the "children" turn round and say, "We're 43 and it's about time you stopped mothering us!".
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-10-17 at 03:36 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #662
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    The Long Night

    Sheridan plans to force the Vorlons and Shadows together to fight. Emperor Cartagia is assassinated.

    The jester bit sure is.....interesting.

    As Vir brings Londo the assasination weapon: a spring-loaded needle with poison on the tip that acts almost instantaneously when pricked into a Centauri's hearts. This leads to one of the funniest, blackest scenes of the series, as Londo and Vir joke about what Cartagia might say in the second or two before he dies. It's a release of their tension as they prepare for what must be done.

    Imperial Assassin Vir is the best. Vir breaks down from the guilt of killing Cartagia. Londo tries to assure him that what he did was necessary, but that's little comfort for the pain Vir feels. Vir's subsequent breakdown was very true to character. It's amazing that Vir has gotten into such a position while remaining such an innocent.

    Londo really shows his politic skills as he makes good cases to do everything he wants.

    The ship sacrifice to get the fake plans into the hands of the Shadows is a nice touch, even more so where everyone in the room is showing the feelings of the moment. It is something you don't see much of on TV: Leaders making hard decisions, while knowing and feeling the cost.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Of course this is a TV thing, but why must Ivanova find the First Ones? Like no one else can do it?

    *It's a bit odd that none of the Centauri guards seem to have a blaster or anything. And sure maybe the conspiracy could get rid of the normal guards guns....but would not all the emperors royal guards have them?

    *It is also a bit odd that the emperors royal guards leave him alone in the back hallway with just Londo and Vir even for like a couple seconds. Normally most guards like that stay close, no matter what...especially during a crazy riot as you never know when an assassin might be around...

    *Why does Sheridan have the ranger guy ''keep the channel open''? It is a bit a waste of effort when you can just call again. Even more so when it will be like an hour or more.

    *Guess G'Kar does not mention the ''strength'' that got rid of the Centauri was the deal with Londo...

    *It is nice when we see the alliance fleet and each race has a set ship design and all......but why does each race only have one type of ship? A fleet of warships would have a mix of battleships, carriers, escort frigates, destroyers, and on and on. Sure most B5 warships are Battlestars (battleship/carriers), but there should still be other types of ships.

    Like all the Drazi warships are of the Liberator class (hehe), but you'd think we see some others like the Scorpio class too (wonder if anyone will get this ancient obscure reference?)


    Final- A, The Assassination plot was overall very well done. We got the satisfaction of seeing Londo's plan to assassinate Cartagia succeed, while also getting the surprise of Vir doing the assassinating. The war plot is all set-up for the next episode with what would appear to be a three-sided showdown between the Vorlons, the Shadows, and Sheridan's fleet.

  3. - Top - End - #663
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Of course this is a TV thing, but why must Ivanova find the First Ones? Like no one else can do it?

    *It is also a bit odd that the emperors royal guards leave him alone in the back hallway with just Londo and Vir even for like a couple seconds. Normally most guards like that stay close, no matter what...especially during a crazy riot as you never know when an assassin might be around...

    *Guess G'Kar does not mention the ''strength'' that got rid of the Centauri was the deal with Londo...

    *It is nice when we see the alliance fleet and each race has a set ship design and all......but why does each race only have one type of ship?

    Like all the Drazi warships are of the Liberator class (hehe), but you'd think we see some others like the Scorpio class too (wonder if anyone will get this ancient obscure reference?)
    - If you recall, Ivanova was the one who got the telepathic impulse to go to Sigma 957 some time ago, and she was the one who met up with the First Ones there and made the deal to get their help. I guess it thus seems logical to send her out looking for the rest of them, considering she would have to go to Sigma 957 to pick up the Olmec heads anyway.

    - The royal guards are in a position where they have a very angry Narn to deal with. They're obviously going to deal with the problem that's right in front of them rather than worry about what loyal Londo and Vir will do with the Emperor. As for the guns thing, maybe Cartagia is so paranoid that he won't give his own guards guns for fear they'll shoot him?

    - G'Kar's own strength was the major part of this--remember, Cartagia had replaced the weakened chains with proper ones, so it was pure strength that broke them, and also pure strength of will that allowed G'Kar to endure the imprisonment and torture to be in a position to act on Londo's deal.

    - Well, the obvious reason there is that designing, building and rendering different warships is a big job, and they had a limited SFX budget. In-universe, it seems to be fairly standard for each race to have one major class of warship which is used in big battles, and any other classes of ship that are used generally don't appear onscreen during the actual battle--if you remember the "Severed Dreams" battle there were other Earthforce capital ships than the Omega-class destroyers present, but we just didn't see them at all during the battle and we have to assume they were destroyed offscreen.

    Oh, and the reference is to Blake's 7, that ought to be obvious to anyone, surely?

  4. - Top - End - #664
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Into the Fire

    Sheridan ends the war between the Shadows and the Vorlons.

    Londo really gets a moment of awesome here with Morden

    And, of course, so does Vir.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Sure is convenient that there are only six other First Ones in the Galaxy, like if there were even just eight then Ivanova would not find them all before the final battle.

    *Why do all the White Stars do the ''crowd together to make us an easy group target " in like every second maneuver? Why don't they spread out more and take advantage of their speed and maneuverability.

    *The Vorlon Observation Post is a bit odd as it is just some towers on an asteroid. It does not seem very ''First Ones with a million years of technology'' type place. Why not have a observation post ''hidden in a pocket of hyperspace"?

    *And the Vorlon Observation Post seems to be a bit weak as a fleet of White Stars can take it out without too much trouble. Even if it was a weak outpost, it would be like super powerful compared to the younger races.

    *Marcus mentions two cents....but do they even have cents in 2261? Even more so did the way far away from Earth colony where Marcus grew up have cents?

    *It's odd, but off all the races, the Vorlons have several different types of ships at the battle.

    *Sheridan sets off a couple nukes...and they obliterate some Shadow ships. But that is a bit odd as all the space warships have to be able to generate at least 'nuke' levels of power...they their weapons can only hurt a show ship when combined. Unless they were special subspace inverted tachyon disruption mines of Ill Omen....and just ''called nukes''.

    *Wonder why all the other First Ones only have one ship each, but the Shadows and the Vorlons have huge fleets(guess to fight the war, right?)

    *Wonder if the Vorlons would count Vir as being influenced by the Shadows too?

    *It does make sense the chaotic Shadows speak with many different voices of people you know....but is sure is also a great way to give the other actors some screen time. You'd think Deleen would see a couple other Minbari, like Dukat or even Sinclair.

    *So Lorean says ''the rest out there work in silence, but he wanted ''you'' to know", like ''the rest'' was the whole fleet...and ''you'' was the crew of White Star Two. Yet a couple minutes later, somehow, the whole fleet saw the telepathic transmissions?

    *And, um, does the telepathic transmissions continue after the asteroid breaks the contact? It does seem like ''the fleet'' get to hear the bit about ''they will not follow you if you are dead''.

    *Lorean talks about Beyond the Rim as some sort of special, magical place....but also says it is the void between galaxies. And, well, even in the 20th century we knew there is nothing in the void between the galaxies. Or did he mean they would head to another galaxy?



    Final-A, but the end of the Vorlon/Shadow War does feel like it comes about a little too quickly and a little too easilyThere's a point, shortly after the "mind's eye" sequence and extending to Sheridan's "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" speech, in which the sense of tension that had built to a breaking point over the past six or seven episodes suddenly seems to evaporate. I love the ideas behind the resolution, and much of the execution. But at the very end, some of the individual moments simply are not held long enough, leading to a sense of anticlimax.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    -

    Oh, and the reference is to Blake's 7, that ought to be obvious to anyone, surely?
    I'm not so sure. Assuming your not in England somewhere, that show was only put on in America on PBS, late at night...years and years and years ago. And it's rare to find it on video/disk.

  5. - Top - End - #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Marcus mentions two cents....but do they even have cents in 2261? Even more so did the way far away from Earth colony where Marcus grew up have cents?
    Probably not, but idioms in a language can be surprisingly durable. As just one example the term "dustbin" essentially doesn't exist in American English. It's "trash" or "trash can" or "garbage" pretty much universally. The term "dustbin of history" on the other hand is doing just fine. Similarly take "go back to the drawing board". Who really uses drawing boards anymore? That's essentially completely digital, and drawing boards are distinct from chalk boards and white boards, which are both dying technologies. Yet the term persists.
    Fudge Assistant in the Playground.

  6. - Top - End - #666
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Sure is convenient that there are only six other First Ones in the Galaxy, like if there were even just eight then Ivanova would not find them all before the final battle.

    *And the Vorlon Observation Post seems to be a bit weak as a fleet of White Stars can take it out without too much trouble. Even if it was a weak outpost, it would be like super powerful compared to the younger races.

    *Sheridan sets off a couple nukes...and they obliterate some Shadow ships. But that is a bit odd as all the space warships have to be able to generate at least 'nuke' levels of power...they their weapons can only hurt a show ship when combined. Unless they were special subspace inverted tachyon disruption mines of Ill Omen....and just ''called nukes''.

    *Wonder why all the other First Ones only have one ship each, but the Shadows and the Vorlons have huge fleets(guess to fight the war, right?)

    *Lorean talks about Beyond the Rim as some sort of special, magical place....but also says it is the void between galaxies. And, well, even in the 20th century we knew there is nothing in the void between the galaxies. Or did he mean they would head to another galaxy?
    - If there were more First Ones Ivanova would have had more time to find them.

    - White Stars are a mix of Vorlon and Minbari technology, and we know that one of them is capable of taking down a Shadow battlecrab if it puts all its energy into its main weapon. Doesn't seem unreasonable they would do a good job of taking down a Vorlon observation post. (I will be bringing this point up again later...).

    - The nukes in question are the nukes that G'Kar provided, which are extremely powerful. Also, how much power the ships can generate doesn't really indicate how tough they are to enemy fire--B5 ships don't have Star Trek style shields.

    - As far as I understand it, all the other First Ones left the galaxy a long time ago. The six ships Ivanova found are just the hold-outs who chose not to leave with their compatriots back then.

    - Actually, even now we know the "void between galaxies" is not as much of a void as you might think. Even given that, it seems reasonable they might have travelled to another galaxy, as you suggest.

  7. - Top - End - #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Sure is convenient that there are only six other First Ones in the Galaxy, like if there were even just eight then Ivanova would not find them all before the final battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - If there were more First Ones Ivanova would have had more time to find them.

    - As far as I understand it, all the other First Ones left the galaxy a long time ago. The six ships Ivanova found are just the hold-outs who chose not to leave with their compatriots back then.

    - Actually, even now we know the "void between galaxies" is not as much of a void as you might think. Even given that, it seems reasonable they might have travelled to another galaxy, as you suggest.
    And don't forget that a lot of the others may have passed through other means. Even Lorien's race could die.

    Lorien: Not immortal as you mean it. My race can die through illness or
    injury.

    Ivanova: Really, so where are the rest of them?

    Lorien: They fell ill and died? Were injured and died. The rest went away.
    I am the last, and I was the first.
    And given how long we are talking, we could just as easily say it's lucky that there were as many as 6 left to still find as opposed to "only" 6.
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

    Spoiler
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    (And yes, I know I'm playing the long odds on some of these!)

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    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • Epiphanies
    • The Illusion of Truth
    • Atonement


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  9. - Top - End - #669
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    Epiphanies:
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    President Clark is trying to start a propaganda war against B5, and starts by blocking all travel between Earth and the station. Garibaldi is triggered by a weird transmission he sees in his quarters and resigns. Bester arrives on the station and tells them of Clark's plans (which are for Psi Corps to take out some Starfuries blocking the last jumpgate to B5 and seed evidence the attack came from the station), and offers to help, so long as they retrieve something from Z'Ha'Dum that will help cure his lover. (Note: Bester finds out for the first time that Lyta is more powerful than he is, which comes as a bit of a shock!).

    Ivanova takes a bunch of Starfuries and defeats the Psi Corps attack at the jumpgate. Meanwhile, Sheridan and Bester arrive at Z'Ha'Dum to find the Shadow allies evacuating the planet, which then explodes. Bester is furious, of course. Later on, Sheridan speaks to Lyta and suggests that a powerful telepath in hyperspace might have been able to trigger the evacuation. She says that nobody should get their hands on the technology of Z'Ha'Dum, and Sheridan says he agrees--but that if a command decision like that is taken without consulting him again, he will turn her over to Psi Corps and let them turn her inside out.

    On Centauri Prime, the new Regent staggers to the mirror and is horrified to find a grey Keeper stuck to his neck...


    OK, so not a lot seems to happen in this episode, but it's laying the groundwork for stuff that will happen throughout the rest of the season. In particular, Garibaldi's resignation after that mysterious transmission--wonder what that could be all about, wink wink? (Hint: Bester saying later in the episode that he had something that would "hurt them" is a big clue here).

    The Illusion of Truth:
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    Garibaldi is working as a private investigator Downbelow now. Meanwhile, ISN have sent a crew of reporters to cover the station again--they claim to Sheridan they'll try and push the truth through despite being seen as Clark's propaganda machine, so he agrees to let them do their work. Needless to say, this does not go well: the report says that humans are forced to live in squalor (e.g. in Downbelow) while aliens get the best quarters. A human being carried away on a gurney after a heart attack is interpreted as a "protestor" being sedated; Mollari complaining about the heat in his quarters to Sheridan is interpreted as Sheridan being given orders by the Centauri; they show an actual interview with Garibaldi where he says Sheridan is suffering from a God complex; and so on. The overall message is that Sheridan is suffering from a massive inferiority complex from his experiences in the Earth-Minbari War, and is trying to turn humans into Minbari--the Minbari only surrendered at the Battle of the Line to bring humanity down from within.

    Ivanova is furious and storms out after the broadcast. Sheridan just silently looks at the monitor, not speaking even to Delenn; she leaves, and he turns the monitor off.


    This is the second time ISN have done a "piece" on B5, only this time, things have obviously not turned out as well as the first time. It's a fascinating exploration of how the actual facts can be twisted in a news broadcast to show any truth that the makers want to show. One does have to ask the question of why Sheridan allowed it to happen, of course--that was spectacularly naive on his behalf; you can't help but think that Garibaldi would not have been so foolish if he'd still been an un-suborned member of the command staff.

    Atonement:
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    Delenn is heading off for a "Dreaming" ceremony that may mean she is unable to return to B5, although she doesn't tell Sheridan this. This ceremony is because her clan disapprove of her potentially taking an offworlder as a mate--this is forbidden to the Minbari. She must undergo the ceremony for her clan to determine the truth of the matter. Basically, after re-living Dukhat's death in the human attack that triggered the whole Earth-Minbari war, she realises she is a child of Valen--e.g. a direct descendant of Jeffrey Sinclair. Since her genes have already been mixed with human ones a thousand years ago, there is no racial purity issue here. Her clan leader makes her promise not to tell anyone this--he will merely say this is an ancient tradition where the losers offer a bride to the winners. She returns to the station and tells Sheridan all went well, but without going into the details.

    Meanwhile, Marcus and Franklin are heading off to Mars to begin the retaliation against Clark.


    Another quiet episode, and this one isn't really setting up much for the future--in fact, apart from the bits with Marcus and Franklin heading to Mars, this episode could have occurred almost anywhere in the latter half of the show. I would hope this would have been a filler episode in season 5 in the original plan, because it really doesn't seem to fit very well here.

    Overall, I think I would rather these three episodes had been used to extend the Shadow war, because I don't think any of them are strictly necessary--I almost wonder why JMS thought them so important they had to be included in the compressed season 4.

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