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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    OK, end of season 3 approaches! The two episodes in question:

    Shadow Dancing: OK, it's been a few episodes since we had a big space dust-up, time for another one! Sheridan believes the Shadows are trying to herd everyone into sector 83, so Delenn hits on the idea of pretty much getting every ship from the Non-Aligned Worlds who can fight into that sector to counter the attack. The NAW agree to this (somewhat to Delenn's surprise), and Marcus and Ivanova head off in the original White Star to scout the place out. (Cool moment: Marcus saying to Ivanova in Minbari "You're the most beautiful woman I've ever met" and her not understanding a word of it!).

    The White Star is seen by a Shadow scout, and, while attempting to prevent it signalling its compatriots, gets rammed by it, taking its jump engines offline. At this point the main Shadow fleet appears, leaving Marcus and Ivanova little choice but to call in their own fleet. Needless to say, an enormous furball develops, with the superior tech of the Shadows countered by Sheridan's superior tactics and jamming from Minbari telepaths (who don't seem to need that silly "line of sight" thing from a couple of episodes ago). Against all odds the League worlds win, albeit at a massive cost--any scavengers will be having a field day in that wreckage field for decades to come, and the Shadows destroyed two League ships for every one of their own that got taken out.

    So, Delenn is watching Sheridan sleep (it's a Minbari ritual, honest, not totes creepy) when the door alarm goes. In walks a woman who introduces herself as Sheridan's wife, Anna...

    B plot: Franklin is left bleeding to death after attempting to rescue someone from a pair of thugs, and meets himself. Turns out himself is as bored with this pointless walkabout as the audience is, and gives the wounded Franklin some home truths about how he's always running away from things. Franklin gets annoyed enough at this that he manages to find his way to a more habitable area of the station, where security find him and take him to Medlab; he recovers, naturally.

    Overall: superb episode, and Sheridan's wife walking in at the end is just a massive shock. (Note that she's played here by Bruce Boxleitner's real-life wife at the time, unlike in her earlier appearances). The tedious Franklin walkabout business is finally done with, and we get a space battle which is close (but not quite) matching Severed Dreams.

    Z'Ha'Dum: So, Anna just casually invites Sheridan to Z'Ha'Dum, and despite her clearly not being the same woman he married and Kosh having told him "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum you will die" he accepts. After having a major dust-up with Delenn, who'd told him Anna was dead and had clearly thus lied to him.

    Turns out Earthforce knew where Z'Ha'Dum was by tracing the path of that first Shadow ship that was dug up on Mars. Anna claims she went there and the Shadows, who were just coming out of hibernation, told them to stay silent and they'd be allowed to study their technology--it would take humanity 10,000 years into the future to get that stuff! Sheridan uses trickery to get the White Star crew off the ship and then flies off in it with Anna. They arrive on Z'Ha'Dum and meet two other people--our old friend Morden and an older guy called Justin, a "middleman" (aka "The man the middle" from earlier prophetic dreams?).

    Meanwhile, a time-delayed message from Sheridan plays to Delenn, where he tells her about meeting her in the devastated future of Centauri Prime: "You also told me, 'Do not go to Z'ha'dum. Do you understand? Do not go to Z'ha'dum!' I began to wonder... What if that future happened because I listened to your warning and didn't go to Z'ha'dum? What if... what if I could prevent the fall of Centauri Prime and end the Shadow War by going there?". OK, this is clearly cobblers. If the future Delenn told him not to go to Z'Ha'Dum, it must be because he *did* go there in that timeline, because otherwise she would have no reason to give him that warning--I have no idea what JMS was thinking when he wrote this.

    Anyway, Justin explains that the Vorlons are like your parents telling you to clean up after yourselves, whereas the Shadows believe strength comes through conflict: if two sides fight each other, the stronger one will win and will be even stronger afterward. Justin and the others basically want humans to be the ones who come out on top this time around, and to heck with any of the aliens out there! They want to cut Sheridan off from his support mechanism. so a load of Shadow ships suddenly appear around B5. (Something that puzzled me about this right back when I first saw it 20 years ago, and which was just as odd now: where were the defence ships? Every external shot we've seen of B5 in the second half of this season has had two or three ships flying around, guarding the station, but at this one crucial moment apparently they all got the day off?). Ivanova wants to use the bombs G'Kar provided, despite the risk of blowing up the station, but he tells her two have already gone.

    Back on Z'Ha'Dum, it turns out that Anna was given the same choice as Sheridan is being given: help the Shadows, or get used as the CPU of one of their ships. She chose poorly, which is why she's not the woman he married--a few years in those ships change people. Sheridan draws the PPG he kept hidden and opens fire. Next scene is a clearly wounded Sheridan making his way onto a balcony over the Shadow city; below is a dark chasm leading to who knows where. He types some commands into his wrist comm and the White Star in orbit begins to move. Anna then appears behind him and tries to persuade him to come back. Sheridan hears Kosh in his mind tell him to jump, so he does--and a few seconds later the White Star crashes through the glass roof above the city and then explodes, completely destroying the place. (Another pet peeve of mine: Sheridan was only falling for a few seconds when a gigaton of nukes went off above his head, there's no way he possibly fell far enough to avoid being vapourised by the blast!).

    Back on B5, the Shadows left as mysteriously as they arrive--but they apparently took Garibaldi, who was out in a Starfury defending the station, with them.

    Overall: Knowing what happens at the beginning of next season saps Sheridan's sacrifice of some of its punch, and I think the hand of the author is showing in too many places. Sheridan's dodgy reasoning for going to Z'Ha'Dum in the first place, Shadows finding a suddenly totally unguarded B5 when they arrive, and a bomb that should have blasted Sheridan into such tiny pieces that you couldn't find him with a billion years and an electron microscope just throw me out of the story every time. A shame, because otherwise this is a good episode--Justin is a suitably slimy individual whose justifications for his actions are both believable and horrifying at the same time, and it's a shame he never shows up again. (We know Morden survives, so it's entirely within the bounds of possibility that he does too).

  2. - Top - End - #632
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Shadow Dancing

    Sheridan and his allies strike a major blow against the Shadows, while Franklin finds himself on his walkabout.

    The Ivanova bed bit is funny.

    It's good to finally get Franklin's walkabout plot resolved. I understand that realistically it takes time for someone to work out a big problem like drug addiction, but I thought this plot was overall a bit of a detraction. Even though his drug addition was built up to over a couple seasons in the show, I still felt a bit like it was just giving Franklin's character something to do, since a doctor doesn't fight on a spaceship. At any rate, it was fitting that his revelation about doing things over in his life was extremely painful, almost like a rebirth.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    A approximate two hour jump to the mystery location? Is that not like just giving away the mystery spot? Just take ''the spot'' and look around for a good target within a couple hours jump.

    So why does Sheridan say he could say the Old Egyptian Blessing...but, um, does not say the Old Egyptian Blessing?

    So how does someone like Barbara even get on the station? Did she willingly go on a trip with her family to a place she hates? And if so why?

    Jam the shadow signal? Guess it is a good thing the Shadows still use normal radio wave transmissions.

    So Ivanova says ''fire'' and the Minbari on the White Star start blasting away. Guess they learned English?

    So none of the telepaths in the Fleet of Light have line of sight to the Shadow ships....but jam them anyway.

    The space battle scenes are great....except we oddly don't see any ''jammed'' Shadow ships....you know ones just floating in space being targets.

    Humm...Kosh sure seemed to know a lot about the future, like maybe he had prophetic abilities.

    Wonder where Anna gets her cute little non-Shadow shuttle?

    So....Anna comes on to the station, and no doubt sets off a red flag with her old ''presumed dead identicard'', and even Zack is there to be all like ''whhhhat?'', but they don't just call Sheridan? You'd think that when long, lost wife shows up you make that call pretty quick.

    And so..Anna reads the station directory to find ''Captain Sheridan Quarters''?

    And sure it is all for drama...but how does Anna open the door to Sheridan's quarters?

    Final A, Well, this episode is certainly going to shake things up. First, the good guys have their first victory without the help of the Vorlons. They have demonstrated that they can work together and that it is possible to fight and beat the Shadows, albeit with a high cost. Thus, this is a huge victory for morale as well.

  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    What about Season Five? Admittedly I'm still a few episodes off from the ending, but thus far it's been decent. It's the finale of Season 4 that really stands out as the garbage episode of the show, with the occasional weak episode throughout earlier seasons.
    It is just so...directionless. Like JMS had the whole arc idea....but nothing after that. So when season 5 came along it was just ''um fill the slots''.

    And the ''Telepath War'' was a huge let down. They hint it is coming, and when it does it is just some silly peace telepath hippies.

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrgon View Post
    It is just so...directionless. Like JMS had the whole arc idea....but nothing after that. So when season 5 came along it was just ''um fill the slots''.

    And the ''Telepath War'' was a huge let down. They hint it is coming, and when it does it is just some silly peace telepath hippies.
    Isn't the Telepath War something we don't actually see on screen? I thought that Byron was the last hope for reform, kind of like a Ghandi figure. He gets killed, becomes a martyr, and now even the non-Corps telepaths are in favor of going to war out of self-defense. We never see Psi Corps get dealt with, and that seems like a pretty important factor in the Telepath War since they are by far the largest number of telepaths in the world.

    My impression was always that it happened sometime in between the end of the series (minus Sleeping in Light) and Londo's death. A quick Googling seems to support this - apparently it happens sometime before A Call To Arms, roughly 5 years after Season 5 completes.

  5. - Top - End - #635
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Z'ha'dum

    Sheridan goes to Z'ha'dum.


    *It is nice to have a bit of back ground and information on the Shadows, and the Vorlons. That the Shadows want change and growth through conflict is not a bad reason for war, but it is just ok. It is normal enough for something big to be based on something so simple, but it just does not feel bad enough. The Shadows have been bulit up to be the Big Bad Evil, and I do mean EVIL. But then they ''just want conflict''? It falls a bit flat.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So in this episode, suddenly people start using B-Pads to store and display information....you know, just so the can avoid saying things out loud so the viewers can hear.

    *It's a bit of a big stretch that Sheridan can fly the White Star by himself.

    *Sure is lucky the Shadows let Sheridan keep the White Star in orbit, as per his plan.

    *All the Shadow People call the Shadows ''the aliens'' or ''them'' or ''the ones you call the Shadows'' or something like that. Really, it must get exhausting to all ways say ''something else'' , you'd think they could just pick some name for the Shadows.

    *The Shadows make a big deal that the Vorlons allied themselves with the Minbari, but don't the Shadows have such races (like the Drac)..or did the Shadows only do that after the Vorlons did it first.

    *So the Vorlons created telepaths for cannon fodder, but then don't seem to use them?

    *So Anna was a Shadow ship computer? Odd, don't they need to be telepaths ? Or can normal humans do it too?

    *Sheridan turns and shoots a Shadow with his sneaky second PPG....but would a PPG burst even hurt a Shadow?

    *So sure the nukes are made to be ''undetectable'' by normal races scanners....but don't the Shadows have super advanced scanners?

    *So Sheridan reprograms the White Star computer and sets up the whole nuke'em ending''? Seems like a bit much.


    Final A, This is a stunning episode. A number of issues in the series are paid off in a satisfying way, and the cliffhanger at the end is stunning. The execution of the episode is also excellent.

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    At the very least it was building towards a telepath civil war.
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  7. - Top - End - #637
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Isn't the Telepath War something we don't actually see on screen? I thought that Byron was the last hope for reform, kind of like a Ghandi figure. He gets killed, becomes a martyr, and now even the non-Corps telepaths are in favor of going to war out of self-defense. We never see Psi Corps get dealt with, and that seems like a pretty important factor in the Telepath War since they are by far the largest number of telepaths in the world.

    My impression was always that it happened sometime in between the end of the series (minus Sleeping in Light) and Londo's death. A quick Googling seems to support this - apparently it happens sometime before A Call To Arms, roughly 5 years after Season 5 completes.
    Well...how long is the TV show Crusade after B5? The PsiCore is long gone by then, right?

  8. - Top - End - #638
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *So Anna was a Shadow ship computer? Odd, don't they need to be telepaths ? Or can normal humans do it too?

    *Sheridan turns and shoots a Shadow with his sneaky second PPG....but would a PPG burst even hurt a Shadow?
    I think the reason the Shadows were using telepaths as their ship CPUs was to try and block interference from outside telepaths--it's not actually necessary for the CPUs themselves to be telepaths. It's pretty certain that the unfortunate human who went aboard the Shadow ship on Mars and promptly went mad wasn't a telepath, for example. (And no, he didn't go mad because he wasn't a telepath, it was because he wasn't "prepared" for the joining, at least according to Delenn).

    As for PPGs hurting Shadows, Londo certainly has no problem killing Morden's attending Shadows in Season 4 using regular guns (albeit bigger ones than PPGs). I think the main defence of a Shadow in person is their invisibility, if you can actually hit them then you can hurt them. Also, Anna wouldn't really have needed to confiscate Sheridan's openly-carried PPG if it wasn't going to be able to hurt anything.

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    My understanding is that, at the time, JMS was "saving" the telepath war plotline for a Babylon 5 movie that he kept trying to get made. That's why part of Season 5 built up to it, then Call to Arms/Crusade happened after it but we never actually saw the thing. He was never able to actually get a movie financed, and to my recollection has not released a thorough breakdown of exactly how the telepath war movie plotline would have gone in any of the various ancillary materials (although I admit I kind of stopped paying close attention a while ago, so it's possible he's done so since or that he did and it was so un-memorable that I forgot). In addition to what we see in Crusade, we see some of the after-effects of the telepath war in the 3rd Psi Corps book if you're willing to consider any of the tie-in books canon.

    As for the nukes thing, remember,
    Spoiler: season 4 spoiler
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    Sheridan basically did die then and then was brought back to life by Lorien. Since we next see Sheridan in basically a weird dream sequence, we have no idea of how "thoroughly dead" he was in terms of "splat" versus "vaporized" when the nukes hit since the actual way he got out of that situation was along the lines of "extremely (uniquely?) powerful god-like alien goes back in time and saves him", which seems like works equally well as an out regardless of cause of death.

  10. - Top - End - #640
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    BlackDragon

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    We'll have to wait until the start of season 4 to discuss that properly, but I don't remember it that way?

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    Lorien never mentions going back in time to save Sheridan, and if he *had* done that, why would it then have affected Sheridan's life force so that he only got about another 20 years? Surely Sheridan would be in whatever state he was when Lorien plucked him out of the time stream.

  11. - Top - End - #641
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think the reason the Shadows were using telepaths as their ship CPUs was to try and block interference from outside telepaths--it's not actually necessary for the CPUs themselves to be telepaths. It's pretty certain that the unfortunate human who went aboard the Shadow ship on Mars and promptly went mad wasn't a telepath, for example. (And no, he didn't go mad because he wasn't a telepath, it was because he wasn't "prepared" for the joining, at least according to Delenn).

    As for PPGs hurting Shadows, Londo certainly has no problem killing Morden's attending Shadows in Season 4 using regular guns (albeit bigger ones than PPGs). I think the main defence of a Shadow in person is their invisibility, if you can actually hit them then you can hurt them. Also, Anna wouldn't really have needed to confiscate Sheridan's openly-carried PPG if it wasn't going to be able to hurt anything.
    I thought it was more: at first the Shadows used normal people for CPUs. They would have had too as the Vorlons only created telepaths like 100 years ago. But once the Shadows grabbed a telepath and plugged them in, they found they worked even better. And it was also a way to ''get rid'' of a telepath and ''twist'' their use...like a knife in the back to the Vorlons.

    The Centari, like the Minbari are slightly ''older'' then humans, so they have more advanced tech. They both have artificial gravity, for example. And ''lowly'' human level weapons can hurt a Shadow, but it would take a lot to kill one (kind of like they had to do a LOT to kill Kosh Two). And a couple PPG shots would not do much more then sting(though we never see the results of the shot...). And Sheridan could have shot Justin, Morden or Anna with the PPG. But the Centari would have a bit more advanced energy weapon as they are ''ahead'' of humans tech wise.

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    I never though it was 'Time Travel', just a bit more simply: Sheridan fell a mile and went splat. Then as he lays on the ground dying, Lorien does his ''breathe on the embers'' healing to bring Sheridan back.
    Last edited by Darth Ultron; 2017-10-04 at 06:54 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #642
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    BlackDragon

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    The Vorlons created telepaths a *long* time ago--remember, Narn has no telepaths because they were all wiped out in the previous Shadow war a thousand years ago. They might have only created the telepath gene in humans a hundred years ago, though.

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    Ok, it has been at least a decade since I watched that part, so it's possible that I either have forgotten bits or am mis-remembering.

    I recall Lorien talking about Sheridan being "between tick and tock", and so thought of the whole fire and conversation thing as happening outside of time in a dream/timeless state right after Sheridan jumps, then Lorien swoops in to "catch" Sheridan and whisk him away right as he would otherwise splat and/or be vaporized. (Although the bombs turned out to fairly survivable by others such as Morden, so maybe the White Star itself contained most of the explosion? We don't exactly get a detailed account of the exact damage level and blast pattern unless I'm forgetting something.)

    I actually have no idea if that makes sense.


    In other news, I'm now at the stage of the moving process where I'm starting to find a lot of my stuff that I haven't had access to in a while, which includes a complete set of Babylon 5 script books. With luck, I'll find the box with the relevant ones for upcoming episodes soon and starting being able to have things to say about Seasons 4 and 5 even if I still don't have a tv set up for a while.

  14. - Top - End - #644
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The Vorlons created telepaths a *long* time ago--remember, Narn has no telepaths because they were all wiped out in the previous Shadow war a thousand years ago. They might have only created the telepath gene in humans a hundred years ago, though.
    Probably longer. The existence of human telepaths was confirmed in 2115, in a "joke" research study.

    The first study to confirm the existence of human telepaths was Investigations into Biochemical Sensory Transmission by Duffy and Philen, June 2115. A sample population of 1,000 volunteer individuals was taken and tested for telepathic abilities. The tests included Zener cards, Black Box Randomizer and blind curtain tests. Overall twelve individuals demonstrated far above average results, with ten ranking statistically improbable and two testing consistently accurate. HCI and Dao demonstrated collateral brain activity between senders and receivers in the accurate test individuals. The initial 1,000 volunteers were increased to 5,000, resulting in an additional two consistently accurate individuals and another 13 statistically improbable number of positive results.

    The authors of the study, two graduate students in neuropsychology from Harvard School of Medicine, began the research as a joke. It was a hazing ritual for first year students to research some of the most obscure topics in the most professional fashions. Fully expecting not to find anything the pair uncovered one of the greatest discoveries in human history.
    So if we take the B5 timeline as valid, we probably have some viable telepaths now. But we don't have the tech to measure it and society generally doesn't believe in it.
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

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    (And yes, I know I'm playing the long odds on some of these!)

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    Default The Hour of the Wolf, Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?, The Summoning

    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • The Hour of the Wolf
    • Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
    • The Summoning



    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  16. - Top - End - #646
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    BlackDragon

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    OK, now I've rewatched the Lorien scene, I note that, before all the discussion about ticks and tocks, Lorien says there are only two options--that Sheridan has already hit bottom and is dead, or else he's still falling and all this is a dream. So, it seems from that that Sheridan was, indeed, able to fall faster than a shockwave that would have been travelling at least as fast as the speed of sound in air, and probably faster...

    Anyway, on to the rest:

    The Hour of the Wolf: It's a week since Sheridan "died", Londo has been recalled to Centauri Prime, and Ivanova is feeling a bit lost. She tries to browbeat the League worlds into an attack on Z'Ha'Dum in the Shadows' "hour of weakness"--they refuse, because to them this is a war oif survival, not victory, and an attack on Z'Ha'Dum would be suicide. Delenn notices the new Kosh did not attend the meeting and determines to find out why--she meets with him and Lyta, but he's spectacularly unhelpful. All he'll say about Sheridan is that he opened an unexpected door and his purpose has been fulfilled. (Unexpected? Old Kosh seemed to know some time ago that Sheridan would eventually end up going to Z'Ha'Dum).

    Lyta is clearly not on board with this policy of non-interference, so she, Ivanova, Delenn and Lennier go to Z'Ha'Dum in a White Star. They try to find Sheridan, but fail; the Eye that interfered with Ivanova's thoughts once before holds them in thrall, and only Lennier's forethought of setting up a dead man switch that will send them into hyperspace if he doesn't hit it every couple of minutes gets them out. We do see Sheridan shivering in front of a fire as a bearded figure approaches, though...

    On Centauri Prime we meet Emperor Cartagia, who is about as far from the late Emperor Turhan as it's possible to be--he's a preening, arrogant young man with more than a hint of lunacy about him. A mysterious personage has specifically requested Londo's attendance on Centauri Prime, and when Londo returns to his quarters, he finds out who it is--Morden, looking a little crispy from the bomb explosion but nonetheless alive. Apparently the Shadows are moving some of their ships off Z'Ha'Dum in case of an attack (bit late there, boys, should have done it a week or so ago) and are setting up a major base on Centauri Prime. Londo sees the ships pass overhead (as in one of his old nightmares) and demands to know what the Shadows promised Cartagia--turns out they've promised to make him a God, and everyone on CP can burn as far as he's concerned so long as he gets that. Londo calls Vir to him and tells him--they have to assassinate Emperor Cartagia!

    In Garibaldi's quarters, G'Kar vows to repay his debt to Garibaldi and bring him home.

    Good episode, this--from the downer ending of season 3 we needed things to swing into action fast, and that's exactly what they do.

    Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi?: According to Franklin's log, it's now 9 days since Sheridan "died" and Garibaldi disappeared. The League has broken up and everyone is basically just waiting for the Shadow counterattack they all believe is coming. Lennier arrives as Franklin finishes his log and tells him there's a problem with Delenn. Apparently she hasn't eaten in days, and is basically determined to starve herself to death and join Sheridan. That's until she sees a message left by Sheridan where he admits her love, and she is then determined to attack Z'Ha'Dum with the Rangers, no matter the cost.

    Speaking of Sheridan, we have the meeting between Lorien and he in the tunnels below Z'Ha'Dum, where much is spoken of ticks, and indeed tocks. Lorien is *the* First One, the first sentient creature ever to walk the universe. The Shadows live in Z'Ha'Dum because they believe it shows respect for him. He tells Sheridan that he has a piece of Kosh in him, and the problem is that both Kosh and he aren't willing to give it up and surrender to Tock (e.g. death). Lorien cannot create life, but he can breathe on the embers of what's left...it might not work, but unless Sheridan does this, he will never escape. Sheridan lies down, and his last (?) word is "Delenn".

    G'Kar leans on a guy in a bar because he sold a salvaged piece of Garibaldi's Starfury to someone else. A bit of a fight breaks out when another patron reveals himself to be Marcus--the two of them fight their way out of the bar, chased by a couple of Centauri guards sent by the barkeep. Marcus somehow manages to get hold of the original guy and wakes him up by dripping water in his face, then demands to know about the Starfury piece just as G'Kar did. He finds out it all comes back to Interstellar Expeditions (most odd things seem to in the B5 universe), and at G'Kar's urging leaves for B5 to find the IP guy. Shortly thereafter, G'Kar is found by the Centauri and kidnapped, then offered by Cartagia as a "gift" to Londo! Londo goes into G'Kar's cell and asks him to assist with his plan to kill Cartagia--G'Kar agrees, but only on the condition that Narn is freed.

    We also find out that Garibaldi is being held in some sort of facility by Psi Corps, where they're quite happy to gas him if he gets uppity.

    The combination of hope and hopelessness in this episode is amazing. Delenn's determination to commit suicide, first by starvation and then by attacking the Shadow homeworld, G'Kar's capture, Garibaldi's imprisonment, all offset by the hope for life Lorien presents. Plus we get a Londo/G'Kar two-hander, and those never disappoint!

    The Summoning: Ivanova borrows a White Star to go searching for First Ones (such as the aliens of Sigma 957) to help with the attack on Z'Ha'Dum. They struggle to find any, but they *do* find an enormous Vorlon fleet on the move, somehow hiding in a pocket of hyperspace.

    On Centauri Prime, Cartagia is having fun torturing G'Kar, but he's finding it tiresome that he won't scream. He says he'll have to kill him if this continues. Londo goes to G'Kar in his cell and says he has to make some noise in the next session or else he'll be killed, and naturally the deal will be off. G'Kar says he can't do that an remain a Narn, but nonetheless, he screams in the Emperor's next torture session.

    Delenn asks Lyta to find out why the Vorlons won't help with the attack on Z'Ha'Dum. Apparently they have other plans? She tries to scan Kosh's mind but he slaps her down and then says, "You would know my thoughts?" She starts screaming--guessing she doesn't like what she sees in there.

    Zack tracks down the transport that supposedly found Garibaldi's Starfury and opens fire on it. It ejects a life pod and explodes--inside the pod is Garibaldi with a weeks' growth of beard. He's rushed to B5 Medlab.

    A group of League members are gathering in the Zocalo to speak against Delenn's plan. Meanwhile, a ship flies to B5 and docks without being given permission. Garibaldi jumps out of his hospital bed to investigate, only to go "I'll be damned" when he sees who it is. In the Zocalo the Drazi is saying they will be destroyed if they attack Z'Ha'Dum, just as Sheridan was. The man himself then appears ("We thought you were dead." "I was--I'm better now."), and tells them they must assemble the biggest fleet ever seen in order to finish this war, here and now.

    The episode ends with the news that the Vorlons have destroyed an inhabited planet that held a Shadow force...apparently the Vorlons are now determined to wipe out any planet that has been tainted by the Shadows.

    Overall: I think this episode is showing some of the compression of plotlines that had to happen due to the show being truncated to 4 seasons. There's just no explanation for this sudden complete change of heart on behalf of the Vorlons, and even less explanation of why they just don't send their planet destroyer to Z'Ha'Dum and wipe the place out. (I suppose they might fear killing Lorien, but then all he has to do is tell them he's *not there* anymore and that should be fine, right?). It's still a good episode, don't get me wrong, but the overall arc plotline is buckling under the strain of fitting everything in and it's showing.

  17. - Top - End - #647
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    The Hour of the Wolf

    Sheridan's friends and allies must come to terms with his disappearance, while the Shadows move their base of operations to Centauri Prime.

    *Emperor Cartagia is a great character :)

    *Like the little 'coat continuity' for the arrival of the Shadows/The Vision.

    *Like how both the Shadows and Vorlon's do the ''I am your father'' trick.


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *The annoying morning computer- I guess Ivanova programed it this way, but the way her computer just rattles off things is annoying.

    *This happens all the time, but why do so many aliens call their planet ''homeworld''. Human's don't do it much, they just say the planets name: Earth. Wonder why so many aliens don't just say their home planets name?

    *So Vir outright lets it be know Londo has Shadow contacts, and has access to a lot of detailed information about the Shadows...but everyone just ignores this and forgets about it in the future.

    *Lyta has gills and can breathe other alien air, but also still wears a breathing mask?

    *Lyta can ''block the Shadow Fleet'' for a couple minutes?

    *Ivanova calls C and C and has them call Delenn ? Does she not have Delenn's number?

    *Sure was lucky Leneer did that little pre programing to escape.


    Final: B, This plot raises the stakes in the Shadow war, although no one in the forces of Light knows about the imminent danger to the Centauri. If Susan and Delenn spend this episode trapped in The Hour of the Wolf, then Londo is damned to spend the first quarter of this season there.

  18. - Top - End - #648
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *This happens all the time, but why do so many aliens call their planet ''homeworld''. Human's don't do it much, they just say the planets name: Earth. Wonder why so many aliens don't just say their home planets name?

    *Lyta has gills and can breathe other alien air, but also still wears a breathing mask?

    *Sure was lucky Leneer did that little pre programing to escape.
    - In the case of the Centauri, "homeworld" is actually easier to say than "Centauri Prime"--plus, of course, "Centauri Prime" is just the English name of their planet, we have no idea what its real name is.

    - She obviously wears a breathing mask when entering Kosh's quarters so that nobody suspects just how thoroughly she's been modified by the Vorlons--once inside where no-one can see she's free to take it off.

    - They're jumping into a known hostile region of space, in a ship class that was recently used to bomb one of the major cities of their enemy, and with no idea what's actually waiting for them there. Why would Lennier *not* take precautions like that? To my mind that's like saying an aircraft carrier here on Earth was "lucky" for having scouting planes in the air to spot incoming enemies while in a warzone!

  19. - Top - End - #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *The annoying morning computer- I guess Ivanova programed it this way, but the way her computer just rattles off things is annoying.
    Annoying, maybe. Makes perfect sense as a personal preference setting, and that one actually seems perfectly in character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *This happens all the time, but why do so many aliens call their planet ''homeworld''. Human's don't do it much, they just say the planets name: Earth. Wonder why so many aliens don't just say their home planets name?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - In the case of the Centauri, "homeworld" is actually easier to say than "Centauri Prime"--plus, of course, "Centauri Prime" is just the English name of their planet, we have no idea what its real name is.

    It is also important to remember that a lot of the races that use that particular term have been off "homeworld" for centuries, or even millennia. It's an easy way to refer to the place that is the origin of your species (and may or may not be the center of your species' power). For example, we know the Centauri have been off their world for at least a thousand years (they had a war that they won with the Xon in 1258). The Minbari have been off even longer.

    Humans (OTOH) have only been off earth for about 150 years. We colonized Mars in 2101, got interstellar flight in 2156 and began serious expansion in the 2200s.

    We're babes in the woods compared to the others. But a thousand years from now, Earth may just be "homeworld".
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

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    (And yes, I know I'm playing the long odds on some of these!)

  20. - Top - End - #650
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    Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?

    G'Kar goes looking for Garibaldi and gets captured by the Centauri; Sheridan comes to grips with the reality of his situation.

    The big G'Kar and Londo arc starts here.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Loren says it has been nine days...amazingly the same amount of 'Earth Time' that has passed. So, sure guess Loren could be ''translating'' the days. But he does note the sun rising and setting...so Earth and Zah Ha Doom have the same length of ''days?" Or is everyone on ''Universal Standard Time".

    *Space Salvage? So guess the galaxy has some type of inter space salvage laws? But it seems kinda odd that some parts of a Earthforce ship that disappeared only two weeks ago is ''legal salvage''.

    *So the Centrari Cops(?) have a bunch of paper ''wanted posters''. Kinda odd, you'd think they would have a Display Pad or something like that.


    Final C, This episode had a lot of good moments in it, but it was primarily setup for succeeding episodes: setup for Sheridan's return, setup for Delenn's attack on Z'ha'dum, setup for Londo's plot against Cartagia, setup for G'Kar to finally free his people. For that reason, it really wans't very fulfilling.

  21. - Top - End - #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    But it seems kinda odd that some parts of a Earthforce ship that disappeared only two weeks ago is ''legal salvage''.
    If "legal salvage" means anything similar to salvage in real-world shipwrecks, the people who found the salvage would be required to notify the actual owners of the wreck they salvaged of what they were doing--it would be up to the courts to determine what sort of reward they would get for their efforts. However, we're not actuallly talking about an Earthforce ship here, we're talking about one that belongs to B5, which makes the legal situation muddy at best considering there's effectively a state of war between the Earth Alliance and B5. It would not surprise me at all to learn that Earthdome is quite happy for wrecked Babylon 5 ships to be sold on the open market rather than returned to the owner!

    (Speaking of which--one wonders what happened to all the wreckage about B5 from the battle in "Severed Dreams", along with the bodies of the Earthforce personnel. We know that the B5 personnel were all buried according to the usual rite, but it's unclear what happened to the guys from the other side).

  22. - Top - End - #652
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    The Summoning

    The other races protest Delenn's plan to attack Z'ha'dum; both Sheridan and Garibaldi return to the station.


    The ''scream'' sub plot is so nice....

    And so is the bit where Vir, being Vir ''wants to find another way''.....and then he changes his mind.

    And the whip scene is soooo long, but so perfect. Like the count gets to ''20'' and your just like ''wow, end all ready''....and the count just keeps going.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So Ivanova says they ''found some First Ones'' last year....the Olmec Head ones.....but, um, what have they done? Just sit around and wait?

    *Ivanova runs off on a whim and just leaves the station? With both Sheridan and Garibaldi .So who is in charge of B5 while she was gone? Corwin? Ivanova is all ways shown to be ''so busy'', how can she just leave for days.

    *Why to Zack go to Deleen about the Garibaldi information?

    *It's odd that Deleen ''gives Zack permission to go'' on the mission from C and C. Is she like in charge of B5?

    *Odd Zack does not fly a Starfury, but takes a ''this shuttle looks like a brick" ship.

    *So do the Vorlons not detect the White Star Two? Why don't they react at all? Do they just not care? "Oh, look it is one of our pet flyspeck ''ally'' races, but so what?"

    *So, um, why does not Loren's ship have a radio?

    *And, well, Sheridan uses the ''B5 codes'' to activate the docking sequence.....buy transmitting a signal. So, why can't he send a voice transmission? Or even ''sos'' or ''Sheridan'' in Morse Code?

    *Of course, Sheridan coming back like exactly five minutes after the ''fools meeting'' starts is just amazing.

    *So sure Garibaldi is all ''programed'' paranoid, but it is still a bit odd for him to act up...

    *And why does Sheridan not tell his most trusted friends in the universe who Lorean is and all? It does not seem like a secret, and it is a ''secret no one will believe anyway''. A couple of simple words would put everyone, even Garibaldi's mind at ease. And did Sheridan mention the part of ''oh, this Lorean guy saved my life''? Normally stuff like that makes people like a person more.


    Final B, This episode was really a lot of set-up, even Sheridan's return, although Sheridan's return is also a big pay-off. It was great thing by delaying Sheridan's return from Z'ha'dum, because it was a much more important event when it came after everyone writing him off for dead and beginning to move on. In my opinion, the moment Sheridan stepped up on the catwalk and took charge, he became "The One", taking over the role from Delenn.

  23. - Top - End - #653
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *So Ivanova says they ''found some First Ones'' last year....the Olmec Head ones.....but, um, what have they done? Just sit around and wait?

    *It's odd that Deleen ''gives Zack permission to go'' on the mission from C and C. Is she like in charge of B5?

    *Odd Zack does not fly a Starfury, but takes a ''this shuttle looks like a brick" ship.

    *So, um, why does not Loren's ship have a radio?

    *And, well, Sheridan uses the ''B5 codes'' to activate the docking sequence.....buy transmitting a signal. So, why can't he send a voice transmission? Or even ''sos'' or ''Sheridan'' in Morse Code?
    - Well, obviously the First Ones haven't just sat around and waited, which is why Ivanova doesn't find them?

    - In Sheridan's absence Delenn is pretty much the leader of the council of good guys, so yes, she'd be in command of B5. It's not an Earthforce station anymore, don't forget, it's effectively the headquarters of the Resistance.

    - Flying a Starfury is presumably a specialist skill that not everybody has, whereas a regular shuttle is probably easier to pilot because they're designed for civilian use--in the same way you wouldn't necessarily expect a 747 pilot to do well if you put him in the seat of a Tornado or F-15.

    - Loren's ship clearly does have a radio or Sheridan wouldn't be able to transmit the docking codes. As for why he doesn't send a voice signal, the plot reason for that is because it would spoil the surprise in the Zocalo. The in-universe reason might be that he doesn't want anyone to know he's back until he's had a chance to assess the situation on the station.

  24. - Top - End - #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - Well, obviously the First Ones haven't just sat around and waited, which is why Ivanova doesn't find them?
    But what about the ''Olmec'' ''Zog'' First Ones? They have ''joined'', but they don't seem to be doing anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    -
    - In Sheridan's absence Delenn is pretty much the leader of the council of good guys, so yes, she'd be in command of B5. It's not an Earthforce station anymore, don't forget, it's effectively the headquarters of the Resistance.
    Sure is leader of the rebels...but being in command of B5 is a huge stretch. She knows nothing about the station and how to run it, so she would be the worst boss ever. Like ''oh the captain's girl friend is in charge''. Really you'd need a ''lieutenant'' or some such rank of someone who was trained in B5. The idea that ''anyone'' can just ''run a city'' is Hollywood Fluff.

  25. - Top - End - #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    But what about the ''Olmec'' ''Zog'' First Ones? They have ''joined'', but they don't seem to be doing anything.
    They were deliberately being saved for a last ditch effort, as evidenced by them saying "When the time comes, come here and call for us".
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  26. - Top - End - #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Sure is leader of the rebels...but being in command of B5 is a huge stretch. She knows nothing about the station and how to run it
    But that's not what she's doing. She's sending *one* member of the station's security forces off-station to do a mission. Presumably Garibaldi would do that if he wasn't still a bit poorly; in his absence, Delenn is doing it instead.

  27. - Top - End - #657
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    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • Falling Toward Apotheosis
    • The Long Night
    • Into the Fire



    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  28. - Top - End - #658
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    Gonna put these into spoiler tags so this post isn't quite as much of a wall of text as it usually is...

    Falling Toward Apotheosis:
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    Vorlons have taken out another two planets, but they don't do a very good job of it--while we hear of "global devastation", they still want atmosphere-capable shuttles to land to pick up survivors.

    Sheridan wants to save everyone, but Lorien believes he will fail in this. Doesn't stop him trying, of course. He agrees with the others to shuttle the survivors who will likely be swarming B5 to Epsilon III to keep them from overwhelming the station, but they have to avoid Kosh knowing about this, for obvious reasons. So, they're going to kill him. A team led by Garibaldi goes in to try and "escort" Kosh off the station, but he easily fights them off. Lyta tells Kosh about the piece of old Kosh within Sheridan, and leads him to an ambush, where, after a minute or so of constant PPG fire, the *real* Kosh comes out of the encounter suit--only to be met by a similar being from Sheridan. (Apparently made from bits of old Kosh, Lorien, and Sheridan himself). The two beings fight their way through the station and out into space, where new-Kosh's ship has flown itself. They both go into the ship and it explodes--apparently that's the end of them both. Lorien has to use his glowy hand to replenish Sheridan's life force--he explains to Delenn later that Sheridan only has about 20 years left, because his power only extends so far.

    Londo wants the Shadow ships off Centauri Prime, because it seems the Vorlons are destroying worlds were there is any Shadow influence--both Cartagia and Morden deny this. Morden, in particular, believes the Vorlons would never attack a world with as big a population as Centauri Prime--if they were to encounter a Centauri fleet they'd move on and go somewhere else. Both Londo and Cartagia appear to agree they won't send out any Centauri ships, and Cartagia chooses this moment to show Londo his "cabinet"--the chopped-off heads of a number of Centauri politicians. Turns out that while Londo doesn't want to sacrifice the Centauri fleet protecting the Shadows, Cartagia wants the Vorlons to destroy the planet as his "inauguration pyre" to celebrate his rising to divinity!

    So, Londo hatches a plan--he suggests that Cartagia's elevation to godhood will be much the sweeter if he can carry out G'Kar's trial and execution on Narn. Cartagia agrees to this, but doesn't like the way G'Kar looks at him before they leave, so gets the guards to pluck one of his eyes out...


    The Long Night:
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    The Shadows have decided they've had enough of the Vorlons vying for the biggest git in the universe contest, so they're now deploying their own planet killer, a sort of black cloud that drops thousands of missiles onto the planet below. Apparently this thing *does* kill all life on the planet, so it does a better job than the Vorlon planet killer in that respect! (Sheridan's comment "Giants in the playground" here is where Rich got the name for this very website from, I believe).

    The fleet gathering at B5 is truly massive, but Sheridan needs more, so he sends Ivanova out to find the First Ones again--something she's rather annoyed about, since it means she can't accompany the fleet.

    On Narn, Londo tells the Centauri leadership that they must kill Cartagia and chase the Shadows off homeworld today, or else all is lost. His plan is to weaken G'Kar's chains so he breaks free at the trial--however, Cartagia has the chains replaced. Doesn't seem to bother G'Kar any, he breaks them anyway and Londo hustles Cartagia into an antechamber. Here he fumbles trying to get his dagger out, and Cartagia grabs him in a headlock and tells him he will burn with the rest of Centauri--only to be stabbed in the chest by Vir! (Difficult to tell which of the three was more surprised about that, to be honest). Londo announces the death to the court and is voted acting Prime Minister. He says they must get back to Centauri Prime and kick the Shadows out now--there is nothing left for them on Narn.

    Back on B5, Lennier comes in with more reports of Vorlon planet-killers in action, but he believes he knows where they will go next--Coriana 6, a world of 6 billion souls. Sheridan decides they will attack both the Vorlons and the Shadows there, but they need to attract the Shadows, so he commands a White Star (commanded by Bryan Cranston, more famous as Walter White in Breaking Bad) to attack a Shadow base--they'll have encrypted data in their computer that directs the Shadows to a fictional base near Coriana 6, but the Shadows won't believe the report if it comes too easily, so the White Star crew have to sacrifice themselves to make it seem more real.


    Into the Fire:
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    Ivanova and Lorien have managed to gather the six First Ones they set out to find. They return to B5 prepatory to joining the fleet. Here Lorien and Ivanova have a conversation about immortality--apparently Lorien's race were all born immortal (although they can still die to illness or weapons). They guided the Vorlons, Shadows and other First Ones, but he says that love, companionship, friendship, are all things he cannot have, because all other races will eventually wither and die. Only short-lived races can truly appreciate these things.

    Meanwhile, an advance scout force of White Stars take out a Vorlon observation post. Lyta asks Marcus why they didn't make their stand at Centauri Prime instead of Coriana 6, since the Vorlons are sending a planet-killer there too; Marcus says Coriana 6 has twice the population, so makes a more logical place to stand. They've put nuclear bombs in asteroid fields (just as Sheridan did when he destroyed the Black Star back in the Earth-Minbari war), but even with those, Sheridan knows his fleet is not big enough to win this.

    The Centauri minister of intelligence investigated Lady Adira's death, and he comes to Londo with his findings--apparently Cartagia forbade him to tell anyone until his death. He reveals that Morden ordered her death, and Londo starts smashing up his quarters as he realises how thoroughly he's been fooled. He has Morden brought to the throne room and has his guards shoot his Shadows escorts. He again insists that the Shadow ships be removed, but Morden refuses again--so Londo blows up the island where the ships are. He'd had most of his people evacuated the night before, just leaving enough to provide the illusion of their presence--"They knew what was being asked of them". Morden is then taken away, shouting that even if the Shadows lose this war they have allies, who will retaliate for this betrayal. Vir then gets to do what he said years ago he would do--he gets to see Morden's head stuck on a pike, and he waves at it just as he said he would.

    Back at Coriana 6, Ivanova and Lorien arrive just in time for the battle to start. The Vorlons and Shadows appear almost simultaneously, and attack each other--but Sheridan detonates the hidden bombs, damaging both fleets. He tries to communicate with the Vorlons to beg mercy, but they don't reply, so he asks Lyta to try telepathically communicating with them instead. Still nothing, and the planet-killer is almost in range of the planet, so Sheridan calls in the First Ones, who destroy the planet-killer easily with their far more advanced weaponry. On Centauri Prime, Londo has just realised he is corrupted by the Shadows and thus the planet is still a target for the Vorlons, but the planet-killer there turns away--clearly being drawn back to the main battle at Coriana 6.

    Lyta's attempts to speak telepathically to the Vorlons have worked too well-they've taken over her mind and use her to paralyse Delenn and Sheridan. Lorien tells Lennier to not interfere, because he will ruin the only chance they have to win this, and then shows them what Sheridan and Delenn can see. Sheridan is talking with a woman frozen inside an ice block--she's saying that their aim is the same as Sheridan's, to fight the darkness, why does he resist? He asks why they just didn't destroy Z'Ha'Dum, in that case. "You do not understand.". But Sheridan thinks he *does* understand--the Vorlons are worried because the younger races don't need their guidance anymore.

    Delenn is in darkness speaking with shades of people she knows, who all spout the usual Shadow schtick of war leads to strength. She, however, knows what this is really all about. It's about ideology--the Shadows and the Vorlons both really want to the prove that their way of guiding the younger races is the best, and it has long since lost any sense of actually *helping* anyone. This is why they don't directly attack each other, because that would not prove the better ideology.

    Lorien pulls them out of their paralysis, but the Shadow planet-killer has enveloped the fleet and they will not be able to escape. A Vorlon and a Shadow both appear on the bridge--Lorien says this is them giving Sheridan a chance to beg forgiveness, to choose between them. What he says next will determine the outcome. Sheridan and Delenn speak to the two, saying that they could not answer their own questions "Who are you?" and "What do you want?"--they've long since forgotten. Whoever wins this time, the cycle will start up again in a thousand years, and the young races no longer want to be a part of it. "They will not follow you if you are dead", says the Shadow figure, and missiles are launched at the flagship--but they are intercepted by other ships in the fleet, sacrificing themselves to save Sheridan and Delenn.

    Delenn: "You can kill us one by one, and those who follow us, and those who follow them, on and on, every race, every planet. Until there's no-one left to kill. You will have failed as guardians. And you will be alone.
    Sheridan: "It's over because we've decided it's over. Now get the hell out of our galaxy! Both of you!"

    Lorien then steps in and tells the Vorlons and Shadows that, indeed, this is the end. "Our age is past." He will go with them, out beyond the Rim, to see those who went before and who they have missed for so long. The Shadow and Vorlon fleets leave, followed shortly by the other First Ones. Lorien is last to go: he tells them that they must do the same as the Vorlons and Shadows, to guide the younger races and leave in their turn when they are no longer needed. He turns into a ball of light and vanishes, and the young races are left looking forward into a new future where they decide their own fate.


    Conclusions: These three episodes, while good, feel rushed--because obviously they are. JMS has had to take something that should have occupied most of a season (the wrap-up of the Shadow war) and cram it into a third of the space, and it frankly shows. I found Sheridan's "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" faintly ridiculous when he first said it 20 years ago, and it doesn't improve with repetition. It also feels a little bit like the whole thing is a deus ex machina--would any of this have worked if Lorien hadn't been there? Why couldn't he have done this years ago? Both the Vorlons and the Shadows seem to revere him, after all. It just doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to this storyline.

  29. - Top - End - #659
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    One of Vir's best scenes happened in "Into the Fire"

    https://youtu.be/47DfQcHMYLY
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  30. - Top - End - #660
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    Falling Toward Apotheosis

    Sheridan has the new Kosh killed; Londo must step up his plans to assassinate the Emperor before Centauri Prime is destroyed by the Vorlons.

    Poor Kosh Two gets killed, but it feels like such a wasted aborted arc. Like Vorlon guy comes on to the station to ''play Kosh'' to keep the new alliance together. Except Kosh Two has new suit and does not act like old Kosh. But sure everyone might just be like ''wow Vorlons are weird and mysterious." And Kosh Two then sort of does nothing? Then, Sheridan is like ''lets kill him!"

    This episode clearly shows us that things are not going to return to normal now that Sheridan is back, because Sheridan has definitely changed. He now seems to be completely comfortable in his role as a leader (and "The One"), even to the extent of accepting the near-worship some of the other races give him. And despite his assertion to Lorien early in the episode that he wants to save everyone, he seems to be more calculating about using people for jobs that must be done but nonetheless might get them killed.

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *The crazy woman who just has to tell her husband something is just a bit over the top, and sure is a good thing Sheridan was right there just as she started to go crazy and pick her up.


    *So the Vorlon fleet takes out refugee places? Why? Are they places touched by the Shadows too? And if they are, why, why, why would refugees go there? Maybe they should put the refugee places in Shadow free areas?

    *Sheridan is all like ''we don't know how telepathic the Vorlons are'', but Lyta knows the answer(they are Epic Telpath grandmasters). Is there some reason she just don't not tell everyone?

    *So are the Vorlons and the 'alliance' still allies? Like do they still have contact and all? If so, won't the Vorlon's know Kosh Two is dead and make the call and be like ''woah, what happened?" And what was Sheridins plan? Lie and say ''um more Shadows came on the station and did it".

    *And why does Kosh Two even hang out on the station? To spy on the weak, meaningless other races? Um, why?

    *So the ''plan'' is for five guys with tiny PPGs to attack Kosh Two to show ''how weak the humans are''. So why would Kosh Two ever fall for that? Like would not Kosh Two know that humans have lots of other big weapons. Sure they are still 'weak' weapons that can't hurt a Vorlon, but still why would the humans not at least try and use them? Like the blaster rifles they use a couple minutes later?

    *Why is Dellen even at the big kill the Vorlon fight?

    *The whole Dellen grabs a fallen guy and the Vorlon targets her and Sheridin runs over to get in the line of fire....just feels so fake and forced.

    *And, er, all of that was a set up for ''ok, so when Kosh Two zaps you, let Kosh One out...

    *Londo talks about how the ''whole world'' will watch the emperor, but should he not say ''whole republic'' or "worlds" or something like that?

    *Emperor Cartagia has ''advisors''? And he has not like killed them yet?

    Final- B, From the title, "apoptheosis" means "deification". Obviously, Cartagia plans on being deified, although not if Londo has anything to say about it. However, there are other godhoods figuring into this episode. The Vorlons were considered to be near-gods by the younger races, but now they are no longer being so exalted - one might say that they are "falling from apotheosis". More interestingly, the rumors surrounding Sheridan's return from Z'ha'dum are nearly according him godhood. In this series, being considered a god doesn't seem to bode well for a character, but Sheridan already knows what price he's paying.

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