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  1. - Top - End - #601
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    So Kosh is killed in the episode, and as we know Vorlons are ''ascended beings of thought and light'', there is no body to be found. But also there is no light show, explosion or anything else (like we will see when Not the Kosh is killed). Here Kosh just seems to wink out and die like a blown out candle.
    Um, what? There was a light show that covered the entire station!

  2. - Top - End - #602
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Sep 2014

    Default War Without End, Part One, War Without End, Part Two

    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • War Without End, Part One
    • War Without End, Part Two


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    War Without End, Part One

    Sheridan and friends travel through time to steal Babylon 4 and send it 1000 years into the past.

    *This might be the only time we see a friendly Vorlon working with the Minbari, other then Kosh and the other one from In The Begining.

    *Ok, so the random message from B5 Timeline Two is sent to the current day station, on porpoise. For the reason of getting Garabaldi off the station so he won't meet Sinclair.

    *OK, deep breath, everything...and I do mean everything in the episode and most of the history of the show is set up by the Vorlons(and Valen). The Vorlons(and Valen) of 1,000 years ago know everything. And they want everything to happen the way it did happen/the way they want it to happen/the way that is good for the Forces of Light. So this is the whole set up of: making sure the Great Machine is built on Epsilon 3 nea the dormant time rift, that the Machine has Time Travel Tech, that it gets ''left alone'', that the space sector is and stays ''neutral space'', that there is a Babylon Project that picks Epsilon 3 as the spot to put a station, and that all five stations get built.

    And then once Earth year 2200 or so came around: make sure ''future history'' matches the ''past history'' Jeffrey Sinclair knew.

    Of course it is a bit of an open question as to how much Past Jeff told Future Jeff. He might not have mentioned everything in detail. He might have said ''remember to not contaminate the timeline"(knowing Sinclar will get the bit about Zathrus) and said ''one might be lost, but don't worry they will be found again''(talking about Sheridan). Or he might have gone into details.

    Things that don't Make Sense
    *Garibaldi, super science wiz that he is, flies over to the rift in a starfury to take readings. Does a Starfury really have abilities to do this, being a fighter and all? Why not send some science types in a shuttle(you know, like they did last time).

    *It would seem the Minbari tech does not advance much in 1,000 years?

    *Guess the ''Allies of the Shadows'' had a visual record from a 1,000 years ago too?

    *So Epsilon 3 auto records stuff in the space around it? Wonder if anyone every asked to look at them?

    *Sinclair sure picks ''groups of two'' that your average 30/40 year old writer in the '90's might pick.

    *So why does the White Star time travel to like five minutes before the bad guys blow up Babylon 4?

    *Wonder where the ''Allies of the Shadows'' got their shadow fighters from?

    *And the White Star is now immune to Shadow Fighter blaster fire? Because it has been shot so many times by Shadow Fighters?

    Final- A, This episode is exciting because season one's "Babylon Squared" was one of the best and most intriguing episodes of the first season, and this two-parter promises to show the other half of that story. The things happening to Babylon 4 in that episode seemed so chaotic and arbitrary that it's hard to believe that our heroes were the cause of them.

    This episode largely ratchets up the excitement and suspense, but absolutely nothing is resolved. We are left wondering what Sheridan's "clear path" is, and why he has been acting with such finality toward others. Why is Delenn worried about him?

  4. - Top - End - #604
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *So why does the White Star time travel to like five minutes before the bad guys blow up Babylon 4?
    I'm pretty sure they missed their aiming point by a day or two. Also, there's not a lot of time in between the station becoming operational and it getting pulled into the past.

    The more obvious question ought to be: why didn't the Shadows try to blow the station up earlier, while it was still under construction?

    Anyway, my thoughts on these episodes:

    Obviously there are retcons here, because of Michael O'Hare's unfortunate departure from the show after season 1. I'm pretty sure that this stuff would originally have happened near the end of the show's run, with Sinclair being naturally 20-odd years older, and all the stuff about him getting aged by the time vortex or whatever would not have occurred. Impossible to say for sure now, of course, since only JMS knows and I don't think he tells!

    War Without End, part 1: "Ranger One" is interrupted by an aide who gives him a message that's been locked away in the vaults for 900 years. He takes off his hood to reveal our old friend, Jeffrey Sinclair, who reads the message and travels to B5. He explains that they need to go and help B4. Meanwhile, Garibaldi is investigating a temporal rift in Sector 14 and finds a message from B5 8 days in the future, which is apparently under attack by the Shadows at that time.

    The White Star with Delenn, Sinclair etc aboard is en route to the rift. Delenn explains that Babylon 4 was taken into the past to use as a base in the last Shadow War a thousand years ago, and Sinclair asks Sheridan to order Garibaldi to return to the station, without telling him he's on board. Zathras arrives from Epsilon 3 and equips everyone with "time stabilisers" to stop them getting unstuck in time, and they all go through the time rift to destroy the Shadow agents who are attacking B4. Sheridan's time stabiliser breaks, though, and he finds himself in a Centauri prison cell 17 years in the future, where Emperor Londo Mollari shows him that the darkness has come to Centauri Prime...

    War Without End, part 2: In the future, Delenn is brought to Sheridan in his cell and tells him their son David is safe. The two of them are brought before a drunken Mollari, who reveals he's under the control of a Keeper (a sort of eye monster attached to his neck)--the alcohol has dulled the creature's senses, allowing him to be himself. He sets free the two of them in return for a promise they'll save Centauri Prime. Then G'Kar enters and starts strangling Londo at the latter's request--the Keeper awakes and compels Londo to fight back, so the two of them end up killing each other. Vir enters, sees the bodies, and picks up the Imperial Seal, while Delenn desperately tells Sheridan not to go to Z'Ha'Dum before he gets pulled back in time.

    Sheridan ends up in a space suit that Zathras has jury-rigged with a time stabiliser. They get the equipment set up for the big time shift, but a power surge sends Sheridan off through time again and puts Babylon 4 four years into the future--this is where it shows up in "Babylon Squared". Sinclair is aged by the time field as they approach their natural time, thus appearing much older. Zathras is then captured while attempting to repair Sheridan's time stabiliser, and we get a repeat of the events from "Babylon Squared" only from the other viewpoint--Sheridan in a blue space suit appears in a corridor, and Sinclair from the old timeline is thrown back when he touches him (speculation: the blue-suited figure was originally supposed to be Sinclair from War Without End, which makes that perhaps more sensible); meanwhile Zathras gives the time stabiliser to the suited figure, who vanishes. A falling beam traps Zathras, who tells the original Sinclair to leave. Sinclair and Garibaldi leave the station while War Without End Sheridan tries to send a message to Garibaldi to watch his back, but fails. The blue-suited person removes the helmet, revealing it to be Delenn, who presumably swapped into the suit at some point off camera.

    They prepare to leave the station, but somebody has to remain behind to keep the place running. Sinclair steps up for this as if he's always known it was his destiny. While the White Star flies away, Delenn explains that, a thousand years ago, human souls started ending up in Minbari bodies; and her people would never have accepted the station if they'd found an alien aboard, to which Marcus exclaims, "A Minbari not born of Minbari!".

    A thousand years ago Minbari scouts find the station. Sinclair is there, having been transformed by the Triluminary (the same gizmo that made Delenn part human) into a Minbari, flanked by two Vorlons; he introduces himself as Valen, and says there is much work to be done.

    Afterthoughts: Where did the Triluminary come from? It seems to have been taken back into the past by Sinclair/Valen, and from there was kept as a relic until the present day by the Minbari, whereupon Sinclair takes it into the past, etc. Nobody ever seems to have created it! Also, if the Keeper controls Londo's actions, how can it not tell that he plans to get drunk in order to sideline it?

    Inconsistencies: I went back and looked at the Wikipedia article for this episode after watching it, and there's a handy guide there as to inconsistences between this and "Babylon Squared". Most are fairly banal, but there are a couple of interesting ones. For example, in Babylon Squared the space-suited "One" who appears near the end is clearly male, but in WWE this turns out to be Delenn--is that a change forced by the whole Sinclair leaving thing? Also, Major Krantz is fully aware of the Shadow fusion bomb and potentially hostile intruders aboard in War Without End, yet he never mentioned any of this to Sinclair or Garibaldi back in Babylon Squared, which you'd think would be an important thing to bring up!

    I so, so wish JMS would publish the original plan for B5 so we can see how the broadcast series differed, I think it would be fascinating to see the changes.
    Last edited by factotum; Today at 03:25 AM.

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