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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    I'm not sure he wanted it to be a moment as "Death of a very popular moment" but instead as a moment of "Everyone remembers where they were when they heard." If it was being made today, I'd expect him to use 9/11 as his example, especially since it actually shares far more with that than JFK's assassination in a lot of ways.
    I doubt it. When you listen to him, he is very much one of the ''JFK was magic'' people. And I doubt he'd ever want to use 9/11 as an example as he is not on that side and all. But sure he'd use the bombing of the Narn homeworld as an example of ''bombing them Over There''.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    I have. You tend to ignore it, Just like ...

    ... you ignored here my long comment on how it ISN'T just forgotten, and drives a lot of the events in Season 1 DESPITE being something that was set up to pay off later rather than in Season 1.
    Ok, so there are like two shows where the ''hole'' is the plot, and maybe like three more when they really stretch things to connect to the ''hole''. And then you get the 15 episodes or so where it is forgotten and does not exist.

    Again it's a typical TV show problem: they mention the thing, but need to stretch it out all season (or longer). They don't have the will or ability to fill the season with the thing, so they take the easy route and forget about it. And sure you can watch the several episodes in a row where the thing is forgotten, then watch the one episode where it gets a mention, and then jump on that mention and say ''it fills the whole show''.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    I doubt it. When you listen to him, he is very much one of the ''JFK was magic'' people. And I doubt he'd ever want to use 9/11 as an example as he is not on that side and all. But sure he'd use the bombing of the Narn homeworld as an example of ''bombing them Over There''.
    I've never seen that specific interview, and so can't say for certain, but just because JMS really LIKES JFK doesn't translate his statement to "Santiago is JFK!". Referencing the assassination attempt was constantly done to reference negative events where, as I said, everyone remembers where they were when it happened, and so those watershed moments of a nation or culture. 9/11 is the one for the recent/current generations. And Santiago is explicitly written to NOT be magic like JFK was, especially given Ivanova's comments on the election. At this point, Ivanova has already been established as a character with wry observations on the state of Earth and things in general, and while her commentary is a bit superficial, having her essentially dismiss Santiago for not, at least, presenting enough of an aura of leadership should be enough to get us doubting him. And her words are even prophetic: the combination of chinless and the multi-chinned was indeed a bad combination.

    9/11 fits better because it was a watershed event and afterwards led the United States towards a situation of increased restrictions in the name of security, which is also what happened after Santiago's death.

    Ok, so there are like two shows where the ''hole'' is the plot, and maybe like three more when they really stretch things to connect to the ''hole''. And then you get the 15 episodes or so where it is forgotten and does not exist.

    Again it's a typical TV show problem: they mention the thing, but need to stretch it out all season (or longer). They don't have the will or ability to fill the season with the thing, so they take the easy route and forget about it. And sure you can watch the several episodes in a row where the thing is forgotten, then watch the one episode where it gets a mention, and then jump on that mention and say ''it fills the whole show''.
    This isn't a bug, but a feature. Arc shows -- and Babylon 5 in particular -- set-up a number of elements whose intention is to pay off later. Sinclair's memory gap was never intended to be the overarching plot arc for the entire series, or even the first season. It is important to his character and is important to the plot -- mostly because of its link to the Minbari surrendering at the line -- but it's there to further THAT plot and to set up for Valen. And THAT plot carries on and underpins most of the series as a whole, even playing in after Sinclair leaves to allow Delenn to marry Sheridan. So it gets more than enough play for what it was supposed to be, and it would be a BAD TV show that would have ham-handedly stuffed it into every episode. We didn't need to know that much about it. All we needed to know was that it existed, Sinclair and Garibaldi were looking into it, and then we got hints about what they found, and those hints led to impressions and situations.

    It would be a problem if it wasn't brought up at times when it really should be, but I can't think of any example of that from the first season. It was mentioned when it needed to be, played a role when it made sense for it to play a role, and got out of the way when it wouldn't make sense to. What, were you expecting Garibaldi and Sinclair to start the day with "Still got a hole in your mind?" "Yes." "Well, maybe tomorrow you'll remember!"? What more were you expecting?
    Last edited by Daimbert; 2017-06-09 at 09:10 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    RedWizardGuy

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    He had a few things he wanted to bring out with this. The issue of having a President and VP who had made a strictly political alliance and actually don't get along or agree all that much. Santiago was pro-alien and pro-Babylon project. Clark was pro-earth first (although presumably few realized how fanatical he actually was). It was always apparent (to me at least) that they were brought together to balance the ticket and win the election (presumably Clark brought much needed support).

    As others have said though, it's meant to be the "Where were we when all this began" moment. Santiago's death puts Clark in power, and is the real start of everything. Not just the uncertainty of what a new president is going to bring (and that uncertainty is increased if you know that Clark and Santiago disagreed on issues), but the uncertainty of "are things going to get worse?".

    And of course they do. Santiago's death is going to be one of those moments in history that gets noted not as much for Santiago, but for the fact that it began (at least officially) events that changed the GALAXY.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    BlackDragon

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    I really dont believe Clarke was anti-alien/pro-human. He was a petty dictator and nothing else. Willing to ride whatever wave of populism that could get him to supreme power, and anti-alien sentiment was such good wave.

    Its like having today's politicians riding on a wave of rascism and xenophobia to establish their autocratic agenda. I dont think they are genuinely believers in the cause they defend.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I really dont believe Clarke was anti-alien/pro-human. He was a petty dictator and nothing else.
    Quite apart from anything else, he wouldn't have been having his people get help from the Shadows in shipbuilding if he was anti-alien. Actually, I kind of wonder how far back the Shadows' influence on him went? I don't think the show ever makes that clear, but he might already have been dealing with them for years before he ever blew up Santiago.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Quite apart from anything else, he wouldn't have been having his people get help from the Shadows in shipbuilding if he was anti-alien. Actually, I kind of wonder how far back the Shadows' influence on him went? I don't think the show ever makes that clear, but he might already have been dealing with them for years before he ever blew up Santiago.
    Actually, he didn't get help from the Shadows (directly anyway). Shadow agents had infiltrated parts of the government and Psycorp, but Clark was anti-alien. The Shadowtech had come from the ships they had excavated on both Mars (2253) and Ganymede (2260, and the one the Whitestar destroys). It's basically scavenged tech, and 6 Advanced Omega Class Destroyers were all they were able to make in the time they had.

    Remember, Morden and his "associates" may have helped Clark with the assassination, but there's no indication Clark knows that the associates are Shadows.
    Last edited by tomandtish; 2017-06-09 at 12:08 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Actually, he didn't get help from the Shadows (directly anyway). Shadow agents had infiltrated parts of the government and Psycorp, but Clark was anti-alien. The Shadowtech had come from the ships they had excavated on both Mars (2253) and Ganymede (2260, and the one the Whitestar destroys). It's basically scavenged tech, and 6 Advanced Omega Class Destroyers were all they were able to make in the time they had.

    Remember, Morden and his "associates" may have helped Clark with the assassination, but there's no indication Clark knows that the associates are Shadows.
    Thats semantics. If he gets help form Morden & Co, he gets help from the Shadow.

    And he knows about all of the human military and power bases. If he knows his "allies" aren't from his intel files, he has to know its alien.

    Finally, he knows the alien tech salvaged is his allies' property.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Thats semantics. If he gets help form Morden & Co, he gets help from the Shadow.

    And he knows about all of the human military and power bases. If he knows his "allies" aren't from his intel files, he has to know its alien.

    Finally, he knows the alien tech salvaged is his allies' property.
    Assuming facts not in evidence. All he knows for sure is that Morden helped him arrange an assassination, and that they have scavenged tech. It's not all uncommon for a leader to not know what's actually going on around him or where power is actually coming from. Clark works perfectly for them BECAUSE he's sincere.

    Morden helped him blow up the President's ship. Nothing there requires alien involvement.

    Clark's ambitions were personal (he wanted the power). Groups like the rogue elements of Psycorp, Edgars' Industries, etc., those are where power actually is. The Shadows infiltrated those and other areas to push Clark where they wanted him to go (and where he was more than willing to go anyway). But there's never any evidence that he actually knew he was working with the Shadows.

    Remember, humanity is on more than just earth now. He may know where his personal power is, but there are a fair number of factions even on earth. The power he's seeing the benefit from isn't ships (other than the scavenged Shadowtech). It's political.
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I really dont believe Clarke was anti-alien/pro-human.
    I think Clarke was just like the vast majority of politicians and even celebrities: the say one thing and do another.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post

    Morden helped him blow up the President's ship. Nothing there requires alien involvement.
    Every so often a character says something like ''Clark has allies in the shadows'' or such...hinting he does, in fact, have shadow allies. And you can't say that Clark ''only meets human shadow agents'', because that would also be true of the rest of the galaxy....even Londo.

    And it's not like Morden or someone has a group of super human ninja cyborg assassin demi-gods. It's the shadows doing things. The shadows blow up tons of ships and space stations, for example....and they do it themselves, not through agents.

    But there is really no reason not to think Clark had the exact same deal as Londo: he got ''help'', and he had no idea from who or how or why...just that things got done.

    It is very interesting to note the Shadow War does not overly touch Human space all that much, and the average human is like ''what shadow war?"

    It's also interesting to note how quickly Clark panics right after the end of the Shadow War when his ''allies'' vanish.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Points of Departure, Revelations

    This week we'll be discussing:
    • Points of Departure
    • Revelations.


    I apologize for the late and poorly formatted post. Finals is eating me alive. I'll edit this to the usual format when I can get to a computer.

    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.
    Last edited by Algeh; 2017-06-18 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Format fix

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Algeh View Post
    This week we'll be discussing Points of Departure and Revelations.

    I apologize for the late and poorly formatted post. Finals is eating me alive. I'll edit this to the usual format when I can get to a computer.
    Innacceptable. I will only participate once you can format properly.

    ...or, you know, we can wait? ;)

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Hooray! The Second Season, this is where the show really starts for me.

    Points of Departure

    Captain Sheridan arrives to take command of the station and must deal with a rogue Minbari warship.

    Things are Changing: So obviously Sinclar is gone and enter Sheridin. Characters are changing and things are changing and the show does a really good job of giving the viewer that feeling. Why was Sheridan really chose to succeed Sinclair? Because he's a war hero against the Minbari? Does the new President think that Sheridan will purposely cause problems with the Minbari? I do like the idea that ''on paper'' John Sheridan looks like a ''by the book officer'' who will do as he is told.

    The Agamemnon-This is our first look at the Omega Class Destroyer and they sure look interesting. Just that right mix of reality and fantasy. Except I've always wondered: How does the crew get about on the ship? So sure the bridge, crew quarters and gym are all in the rotating section, but what about the rest of the ship? The engine room and fighter bay are both in micro gravity. How does a poor fighter pilot get from their bunk to the hanger bay? So do they get to the top of the rotating section and ''jump'' into the micro gravity middle and then ''float'' over to the other sections?

    *Weird Tech-The holo letter is cool, but really stands out vs the 1990's picture tube TV's everywhere

    *Warren Keffer- Fighter Pilot. So the Network forced JMS to add this character. Guess it was like: Network: "wow, cool space show..pew, pew..where is the cool fighter pilot like Luke Skywalker?" JMS: "Um, well it's not that kind of show..." Network:"What? It's silly kids stuff sci-fi, right? Pew, pew" JMS: "Well, it's a science fiction based show..." Network: "Right! So add a fighter pilot! This we command! Pew, pew!" All that being said, I think Keffer gets a good arc and at least does add to the show. Sadly, Keffer is a better character then Dr. Franklin and Talia combined.

    Things that don't make Sense:

    *General Heage-Wonder why he is a general and not an admiral?

    *Crazy Ivonava-Sigh, again with her going all hostile and crazy and everyone is like ''okey day''.

    *Fresh Fruit-I'm not sure the whole ''missing fresh fruit '' thing makes sense. The Agamemnon can't just have a big freezer of frozen food or a cabinet of canned food...to be ''on mission'' for any length of time they would need a hydroponics bay, right? Not to mention any place people live they have crops, and why would they not get some?

    *The Rim-This comes up so many times. Sheridan says he spent two years ''out on the Rim'', but where is this exactly? He would be talking about the ''rim'' of human space...right? Like the Agamemnon was on patrol on the ''edge'' of human controlled space? That is like a third type of ''rim'' : Rim of the Galaxy, Rim of Known Space and Rim of Each Races Space.

    *Gray Council Guy-How ''secret'' is the Gray Council anyway? Linear knows who the guy is, and Sheridan makes a good guess that he is one. So he does not seem so secret.

    *No Identicard-So how did Kalain get on the station? Sure he has a fake card, but it does not scan in the little device...so how did he get on the station? Did he knock out a guard to get on board? Did he sneak in somehow? How does an alien even get an identicard?

    *The Black Star-is a cool name and all, but should it not be the Trunelithil or whatever the Minbari words for black star is?

    *Kalain's Claw-So we see him with a glowing claw weapon thing when he grabs Gray Council Guy, but a couple minutes later he has a PPG? Why?

    *Missing Souls-So, starting 2,000 years ago....and that is 1,000 years before Sinclar/Valen ...Minbari souls started to jump to humans....so why did it start to happen?

    *Can't Lock On-So why does it seem like only Sheridan is the only one that knows about it?

    *Starkiller- I find it a bit odd that the Minbari hate Sheridan so much for destroying one of their capital ships. After all, they were in a war. Yes, it was the flagship, but really - get over it.

    *Trigati Plan-So, er, the plan was have Kalain go to the station an get arrested for threatening Delenn. Then the Trigati would show up and (lie?) and say he was arrested wrongly? Though ''threatening an ambassador '' is a fair crime. Then the Trigati would ''open their gun ports''(and turn off their stealth tech) and just wait for the Starkiller Sheridan to be all bloodthirsty and be like ''open fire and don't stop firing until you have killed them all and bathed the stars in their blood!''.

    Sure, I guess the crew of the Trigati were desperate and maybe space-crazy, but that is not the best of plans. If the plan had worked...they would have fought back, right? so they would have killed some humans? Or was the plan all along to ''go out like wimps'' so history would say something like ''the Trigati came to B5 with peace and rainbows and evil monster Starkiller slaughtered them all and bathed the stars in their blood!'' And no one would think it was odd that the Trigati just stat there and let themselves get killed?

    And even if Sheridan wanted to ''blow the Trigati out of space'', could he have? B5 does not currently have the firepower to ''take out a warship'', right? And it's not like B5 has a wave motion cannon that would obliterate a ship, so their might be survivors of any attack...or were they all ways going to blow up? Like was the plan ''one of the Earth bolts missed our ship by 20 billion Varnsonti's, so SELF DESTRUCT NOW!"

    *The Other Ship-Er I never forgive the lazy writing of ''the other ship''. Sigh. Does the ''other ship'' not have a name?

    *After the plan Fails-So, er, were the Trigati really trying to run away at the end? Like ''darn our dumb plan failed...well back to exile for us''? Or did they know they would never make it? So they were like ''move the ship away from any potential harm to any others and self destruct!''. And did the ''Other Ship'' plan on taking all the hero Trigati crew home in chains as prisoners? Seems a bit odd for the warrior caste to think that....

    *Final-A, This episode does a good job showing the change in command of B5 and demonstrating the differences in the characters of Sheridan and Sinclair. This episode is also different from a lot of typical television in that two of the top-billed characters are absent: Delenn and Garibaldi.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    BlackDragon

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    I always thought the second episode here (Revelations) was where the arc plot really kicked into gear. Points of Departure is really just an introduction to Sheridan's character, made necessary by Michael O'Hare's unfortunate departure. We see Delenn return in a very different form (although I could never figure out how the hair worked with the bone thing she still had at the back of her head), and G'Kar is issuing warnings about the return of an old enemy...which of course nobody believes at this point.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I always thought the second episode here (Revelations) was where the arc plot really kicked into gear. Points of Departure is really just an introduction to Sheridan's character, made necessary by Michael O'Hare's unfortunate departure. We see Delenn return in a very different form (although I could never figure out how the hair worked with the bone thing she still had at the back of her head), and G'Kar is issuing warnings about the return of an old enemy...which of course nobody believes at this point.
    This is normal. After all most of the time the first episode of the season is really the last episode of the season before it. Most of the time it's a two part cliff hanger, but not always.

    Points of Departure One more:

    *The secret-So Sheridan says he spoke to the president and that the president is the only other human that knows the secret. Wonder who told the president? Did like a third Gray Council member go to Earth as a ''diplomatic paper pusher'' and then meet with the president? Did he get a diplomatic sealed letter from the Gray Council like ''read this quick it will self destruct in 60 seconds''?

    And if the president is the only other one that knows...does that mean Sinclair does not know? Or maybe just that Sheridan does not know that Sinclair knows?

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *General Heage-Wonder why he is a general and not an admiral?
    He is the Chief of the EA's military Staff. This means he is the highest man in overall command of all of the Earth Alliance's Forces, both Naval and Land-based. This position can be drawn from either the Fleet or the Army, and thus both Admirals and Generals are eligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Fresh Fruit-I'm not sure the whole ''missing fresh fruit '' thing makes sense. The Agamemnon can't just have a big freezer of frozen food or a cabinet of canned food...to be ''on mission'' for any length of time they would need a hydroponics bay, right? Not to mention any place people live they have crops, and why would they not get some?
    Well, i know for a fact getting a Pakmara Froozles at breakfast isnt the same thing as getting a good apple or orange.

    And they dont have hydroponics.. because they dont. Why would they? They are a freakkin' warship. Equipped with guns, armors, ECMs and Starfighters. An hydroponics that would be sufficiently big to supply its crew would be a ludicrous loss of space, including the fact that you probably woule have to put that bay in the rotating sections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *The Black Star-is a cool name and all, but should it not be the Trunelithil or whatever the Minbari words for black star is?
    Maybe they translate all literal names. The ship named Trigati may be named after a city or a historical figure or a Minbari Bible book, and be this untranslatable. I mean, if they saw two of our ships, the Invincible and the Agamemnon , its not hard to figure out why they would translate one ship's name and not the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Can't Lock On-So why does it seem like only Sheridan is the only one that knows about it?
    This one is easy. Ivanova is the 2nd most senior officer on the station, and she only enrolled during/after the Earth-Minbari War, never experiencing any combat against them. This indicates that EarthForce experienced a major manpower shortage after the war and that any combat veterans were either promoted or canned.

    The information regarding EarthForce's complete technological inadequacy against the Minbari was probably judged to be sensitive information (since it meant basically being a the permanent mercy of the Minbari - potentially damaging to morale)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Starkiller- I find it a bit odd that the Minbari hate Sheridan so much for destroying one of their capital ships. After all, they were in a war. Yes, it was the flagship, but really - get over it.
    The Minbari - especially their Warrior caste- are a bunch of arrogant culturocentric *******s who think they are basically anointed to be the best thing in the Galaxy. They revel in kicking inferior peoples and shy from challenging anything that might pose them a challenge.

    The idea that anyone could destroy one of their ship means that the culprit OBVIOUSLY had to use dishonorable means. And like all arrogant ******* cultute, they will overlook their own dishonorable conduct that serves nothing more than to add icing on top of their victory, but obsess over any wrong committed at them.

    I mean, its not completely dissimilar to how the Cardassians treated the Bajorans during the Occupation. Or the Centauri treat the Narns. Or the Americans treated the Iraqis insurgents.

    And yes, i included the last one as a point just so you understand the PoV of the "superior and arrogant" side. Its not meant to start a discussion, merely meant to highlight how its a natural way of thinking for anyone.

    The Minbari basically see Sheridan as someone who planted an IED on the side of the road, blew up 200 soldiers, and gets treated as a war hero by the Talibans who murdered their President. That is how THEY see it.

    And yet, i agree with you that I think the Minbari are in the wrong to obsess over this. When you have such a military supremacy over your adversary that the only way they can fight you is using underhanded tactics...

    .. then you have a lot of nerve for calling them villainous for using these tactics. In fact, for me, the only surprising thing is why Earth Alliance didnt started using more trap strategies like Sheridan's.
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2017-06-13 at 07:20 AM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    And they dont have hydroponics.. because they dont. Why would they? They are a freakkin' warship. Equipped with guns, armors, ECMs and Starfighters. An hydroponics that would be sufficiently big to supply its crew would be a ludicrous loss of space, including the fact that you probably woule have to put that bay in the rotating sections.
    Cikomyr hits the key thing here. Don't forget that Earthforce ships (at this time) still have to rotate to generate gravity. While testing has shown plants can grow in zero G, it's going to be a lot of work to water them properly (it's one of the issues they've discovered). .

    Also, vegetables might be practical, but a lot of fruit come from trees (impractical due to size).


    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    The idea that anyone could destroy one of their ship means that the culprit OBVIOUSLY had to use dishonorable means. And like all arrogant ******* cultute, they will overlook their own dishonorable conduct that serves nothing more than to add icing on top of their victory, but obsess over any wrong committed at them.

    I mean, its not completely dissimilar to how the Cardassians treated the Bajorans during the Occupation. Or the Centauri treat the Narns. Or the Americans treated the Iraqis insurgents.

    And yes, i included the last one as a point just so you understand the PoV of the "superior and arrogant" side. Its not meant to start a discussion, merely meant to highlight how its a natural way of thinking for anyone.

    The Minbari basically see Sheridan as someone who planted an IED on the side of the road, blew up 200 soldiers, and gets treated as a war hero by the Talibans who murdered their President. That is how THEY see it.

    And yet, i agree with you that I think the Minbari are in the wrong to obsess over this. When you have such a military supremacy over your adversary that the only way they can fight you is using underhanded tactics...

    .. then you have a lot of nerve for calling them villainous for using these tactics. In fact, for me, the only surprising thing is why Earth Alliance didnt started using more trap strategies like Sheridan's.
    Yeah. To paraphrase Wolverine (speaking to Captain America) in the first Avengers vs. X-Men back in the 80s: Terrorists are what the big army calls the little army.

    But part of this was to show the differences in mindset between the cultures as well. IT's important to note that Minbari warrior caste see nothing wrong with their actions. it sets the stage for the Minbari civil war later on.
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    This one is easy. Ivanova is the 2nd most senior officer on the station, and she only enrolled during/after the Earth-Minbari War, never experiencing any combat against them. This indicates that EarthForce experienced a major manpower shortage after the war and that any combat veterans were either promoted or canned.
    Well, given most of Earthforce's personnel died in the war (it's canonical that less than 200 people survived from the 20,000 who fought the Battle of the Line, for example) it's hardly surprising they had a big manpower shortage afterward. Having said that, you would think that a major weakness you had against the last enemy you fought would be a pretty important piece of training for the new boys--those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, as they say. If I were running Earthforce I'd be putting all my new ship gunners through how to use the ol' Mk I eyeball to shoot rather than relying on the computer to do it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, given most of Earthforce's personnel died in the war (it's canonical that less than 200 people survived from the 20,000 who fought the Battle of the Line, for example) it's hardly surprising they had a big manpower shortage afterward. Having said that, you would think that a major weakness you had against the last enemy you fought would be a pretty important piece of training for the new boys--those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, as they say. If I were running Earthforce I'd be putting all my new ship gunners through how to use the ol' Mk I eyeball to shoot rather than relying on the computer to do it!
    I would agree with you, but

    - they never overcame that disadvantage
    - in B5, its pretty obvious the distances involced in space warfare makes MK1 Eyeball ludicrously obsolete

    Basically, Minbari military were invincible against Earthforce.

    Another point why only Sheridan noticed:

    - the pilots had targetting confirmation. Why look at a gift horse in the mouth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    - in B5, its pretty obvious the distances involced in space warfare makes MK1 Eyeball ludicrously obsolete
    Except we never actually see an example of long-distance space combat apart from the episode where the Narn fleet gets wiped out by the Shadows (and even then the effect doesn't quite work due to how the SFX is done, but more on that when we get to the episode in question). Every other instance of space battle we see has the opponents in easy visual range of each other--heck, in "Severed Dreams" the Agamemnon fires on an enemy ship as soon as it's in range, and the two ships are very obviously no more than a couple of kilometres apart at that point, so these future space warships have guns with rather worse range than the ones on modern-day naval vessels. Not to mention that deliberately ramming an opponent is a tactic we see used more than once in the show and its spinoffs.
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-06-13 at 04:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Except we never actually see an example of long-distance space combat apart from the episode where the Narn fleet gets wiped out by the Shadows (and even then the effect doesn't quite work due to how the SFX is done, but more on that when we get to the episode in question). Every other instance of space battle we see has the opponents in easy visual range of each other--heck, in "Severed Dreams" the Agamemnon fires on an enemy ship as soon as it's in range, and the two ships are very obviously no more than a couple of kilometres apart at that point, so these future space warships have guns with rather worse range than the ones on modern-day naval vessels. Not to mention that deliberately ramming an opponent is a tactic we see used more than once in the show and its spinoffs.
    Eh. And yet, all ships fire blindly and regularly miss.

    I think the distances on display is meant to show cool spaceship combat rather than be an accurate visual representation of things as they happen on the astronomical scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Eh. And yet, all ships fire blindly and regularly miss.

    I think the distances on display is meant to show cool spaceship combat rather than be an accurate visual representation of things as they happen on the astronomical scale.
    I both agree and disagree. Yes, it's a limitation of the medium that the action is better served by having ships in proximity, but it is also true that we therefore conclude that ranges are far less than they should be. What's on the screen is what's happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jallorn View Post
    I both agree and disagree. Yes, it's a limitation of the medium that the action is better served by having ships in proximity, but it is also true that we therefore conclude that ranges are far less than they should be. What's on the screen is what's happening.
    JMS, and many others, have noted that TV space battles have to be unbelievably close. It just does not look good on TV for ships to be realistically far, far away from each other. Viewers like to see both sides of the battle. And a ship or station ''shooting at nothing'' is boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    JMS, and many others, have noted that TV space battles have to be unbelievably close. It just does not look good on TV for ships to be realistically far, far away from each other. Viewers like to see both sides of the battle. And a ship or station ''shooting at nothing'' is boring.
    Again, I will point at the episode where the Shadows destroy the Narn fleet at Gorash VII. There is not a single shot in that where the opposing forces are on camera at the same time, yet it's a great battle.

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    Revelations

    G'Kar reports on what he found near the galactic rim; Garibaldi wakes up; Delenn reveals the result of her transformation; and Sheridan's sister comes to visit.


    *"Why don't you eliminate the Narn homeworld?" is some really dark foreshadowing..

    *Weird Tech-Dr. Franklin has a medical tricorder wand.

    *Assassin Drama- Like how Sheridan, who of course knew they would arrest the assassin at ''3:00'', but he in not there personally...and even takes the long way.

    *Spacing- The penalty for treason is spacing: tossing a person out an air lock. That sure is a harsh, but cool punishment.

    We she the Life Machine, again. Dr. Franklin makes a ''big deal'' about not asking anyone else to help save Garibaldi. But that is a bit odd, at least Ivanova and the whole security force would be happy to help. Like maybe drain ''1/20th of a life force'' from each person. And you would not have to ''tell the secret '' of the Life Machine (as only like a couple hundred folks on B5 know about it, wink wink) as you could come up with a cover.

    *Talia- She gets to come back and get like five minutes of screen time!

    Things that don't Make Sense:

    *Shadow Fighters- G'Kar encounters some shadow fighters. Wonder if Narn fighters have ''gun cameras'' like starfyries?

    *Sneaky G'Kar-So how does he sneak aboard the station anyway?

    *''The Rim''- G'Kar mentions the ''Rim of known space''. And more so the ''rim'' of 1,000 years ago. So how can ''The Rim'' be at the same location over 1,000 years? It would ''move'' all the time. Z'ha'dhum can't be ''at the Rim'' of know space for the whole galaxy.

    *A ''Dead World''-G'Kar mentions ''dead worlds'' many times. I wonder what a ''dead world'' is? A world with no plant or animal life? A world with no atmosphere? A world with no biosphere? I guess a ''dead world'' is like Mars....though I don't think I've ever heard someone say ''that dead world Mars''. And considering lots of planets can't support life, like really 9 out of 10 of them, do most planets count as ''dead worlds''?

    *Jump Drain- So does every ship have an ''energy drain that disrupts communications'' when they jump? Or is this just a Narn thing?

    *Shadow Detectors- So Londo repays Morden by telling him about the Narn ship going to Z'ha'dhum. But, um, don't the Shadows have ''jump gate detectors''? Earthforce has them.

    *No ships left in the Galaxy- It's typical drama, but the Narn have ''no more ships'' to send to Z'ha'dhum, ever again. And sure it might be more political, but it's still odd. Like say the USS America was to sail to Antarctica and as soon as it gets there it explodes and sinks. Would the American government just be like ''oh, must have been a bad engine. Lets not send any more ships there ever again."

    *Poor Assassin Training- Sure was lucky the assassin was standing right in line with a reflective surface right in the line of sight of Garibaldi.

    *Disappearing Assassin- So why do they do this? Why not just send him to ''spot x'' on Earth....and then have him ''disappear'' in the folds of the government? So like Clark could just say ''top men '' are working on it. To have him be taken in space by a ''fake'', but ''real'' other ship just leaves it too wide open. Like Clark should say ''lets comb the galaxy to find that assassin'' and the folks on B5 would be like ''lets go find that guy!''.....but oddly it just gets dropped like the assassin no longer exists.

    *Anna Sheridan looks...different :)

    Final-A. This episode really sets the stage for events throughout the rest of the season. There's a new, powerful race that is taking more of a hand in events - Londo is aware of them and is working with them; G'Kar is aware of them, but can't get anyone else to believe him. From what we have seen of Delenn's and Lennier's actions, they are aware of them, but aren't doing anything about them at the moment. The humans are pretty much blissfully ignorant - but for how long? We don't know what the Vorlons know, but I did notice that Kosh was present at the Council meetings in this episode, which is unusual

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Revelations
    *"Why don't you eliminate the Narn homeworld?" is some really dark foreshadowing..
    "One thing at a time, Ambassador. One thing at a time".

    The look on Londo's face when Morden says that is priceless. The first hint that maybe he's in over his head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Sneaky G'Kar-So how does he sneak aboard the station anyway?
    Admittedly not shown in this episode, but other episodes show that there are plenty of workers willing to look the other way for some extra cash. "Sneaking" in this case is really more not being logged in and avoiding official attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *''The Rim''- G'Kar mentions the ''Rim of known space''. And more so the ''rim'' of 1,000 years ago. So how can ''The Rim'' be at the same location over 1,000 years? It would ''move'' all the time. Z'ha'dhum can't be ''at the Rim'' of know space for the whole galaxy.
    Actually, most of the races we deal with are in the same corner of the galaxy as us, and are on the edge. There are two areas, and at time they aren't clear which they are talking about. There's the edge of explored space in our galaxy. That's what Explorer class ships like the Cortez are ... well.. exploring (and setting up jump gates). This edge is changing as exploration opens it up.

    Z'ha'Dum is on the galactic rim. There isn't anything past it other than the empty space between galaxies. So nothing to explore, and no movement (other than normal spacial movement).

    I agree, it can be confusing. Sometimes they say "the rim of known space". That can mean the galactic rim, which no one has gone past, or it can man the area not yet explored (but able to be explored. You kind of have to piece it together from episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Jump Drain- So does every ship have an ''energy drain that disrupts communications'' when they jump? Or is this just a Narn thing?

    *Shadow Detectors- So Londo repays Morden by telling him about the Narn ship going to Z'ha'dhum. But, um, don't the Shadows have ''jump gate detectors''? Earthforce has them.
    Good question. No clue if it is a Narn thing or an all thing.

    As for the warning, since we don't know how total many ships the Shadows have, they may not have one outside the jump gate just watching it. The warning allows them to have one there AND ready to fire as soon as the Narn ship come through, which guarantees destruction without communication.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *No ships left in the Galaxy- It's typical drama, but the Narn have ''no more ships'' to send to Z'ha'dhum, ever again. And sure it might be more political, but it's still odd. Like say the USS America was to sail to Antarctica and as soon as it gets there it explodes and sinks. Would the American government just be like ''oh, must have been a bad engine. Lets not send any more ships there ever again."
    Actually, "The Kha-Ri says it cannot afford to send a ship for some time" is what they said. Which actually is reasonable given what they know. They sent this to humor G'Kar, not because they actually believe anything is going on. The Narn are still a building power and ships are in short supply. But they didn't say never. And even G'Kar decides he believes the accident because he doesn't think that anyone could get a ship out there that quick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post

    *A ''Dead World''-G'Kar mentions ''dead worlds'' many times. I wonder what a ''dead world'' is? A world with no plant or animal life? A world with no atmosphere? A world with no biosphere? I guess a ''dead world'' is like Mars....though I don't think I've ever heard someone say ''that dead world Mars''. And considering lots of planets can't support life, like really 9 out of 10 of them, do most planets count as ''dead worlds''?
    Civilization in the B5-Verse has been around for a long time. The Vorlons were already an Elder race when they went fiddling with the genetics and cultures of all the races in the galaxy (including the Minbari) to ensure they had telepaths and viewed the Vorlons as holy figures. The First Ones were already beyond ancient before that, and Lorien's race is older still.

    This means that the galaxy is rotten with failed civilizations - planets where the native races died out naturally, wiped themselves out, or were forcibly wiped out. We hear about the archaeological digs periodically - in fact, this is what Anna Sheridan was up to.

    Where G'kar went was in what used to be "Shadow space", similar to how there's a "Vorlon space" that the Vorlons prevent the younger races from entering. The worlds in that region of the galaxy are all dead - either they were wiped out by the Shadows in one of the previous wars, were Shadow bases that were wiped out like what nearly happened to Centauri Prime, or were inhabited by allies of the Shadows that bailed when they saw the Vorlons/Minbari coming.

    G'Kar essentially walked into Mordor and found that Minas Morgul had been rebuilt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    *Jump Drain- So does every ship have an ''energy drain that disrupts communications'' when they jump? Or is this just a Narn thing?
    Good question. No clue if it is a Narn thing or an all thing.
    Any ship that can generate a Jump Point needs to spend a non-trivial amount of energy to do so, hence why there are a bunch of ships that rely on jumpgates to get to hyperspace.

    It's not surprising this would potentially affect Narn (and Humans) the most because in terms of technological development they're at the low end of the totem pole (which among the major powers goes something like: Vorlons/Shadows >>> Mimbari > Centauri > Narn ~= Humans).
    Last edited by cha0s4a11; 2017-06-15 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The Vorlons were already an Elder race when they went fiddling with the genetics and cultures of all the races in the galaxy (including the Minbari) to ensure they had telepaths and viewed the Vorlons as holy figures. The First Ones were already beyond ancient before that, and Lorien's race is older still.
    Just to query this, as far as I know both the Vorlons and Shadows are themselves First Ones? They're just more active among the younger races than the other First Ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Just to query this, as far as I know both the Vorlons and Shadows are themselves First Ones? They're just more active among the younger races than the other First Ones.
    Basically this. Vorlons and Shadows are those who took the mantle of shepherding the younger races, but their presence and conflict have had a somewhat negative long term influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    "One thing at a time, Ambassador. One thing at a time".

    The look on Londo's face when Morden says that is priceless. The first hint that maybe he's in over his head.
    It is also great that he knows he is in over his head....but he just can't resist the temptation of power and glory.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Z'ha'Dum is on the galactic rim. There isn't anything past it other than the empty space between galaxies. So nothing to explore, and no movement (other than normal spacial movement).
    IS Z'ha'Dum on the Galactic Rim? I don't think the show ever says that. And the ''Galactic Rim'' is odd as the Galaxy really does not have an hard ''edge''. The Galaxy is a lot more like a ''cloud'' with like a billion ''edges''. The show makes it sound like Earth, and all the aliens are ''in the middle'' or something. But, Earth is really way, way out on an arm of the galaxy, you might even say ''on the rim''....

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Just to query this, as far as I know both the Vorlons and Shadows are themselves First Ones? They're just more active among the younger races than the other First Ones.
    Yes and no. They are both First Ones, to humans and the other B5 races.

    But, technically only Lorean's race was ''first'', as he says they ''went to the other races, like the Shadows and Vorlons when they were young'' .

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