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  1. - Top - End - #331
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Nop. They were the Taramitudes originally
    As per the officially "sealed" "The Passing of the Technomages" Trilogy, if I recall correctly:

    Spoiler
    Show
    The technology was indeed originally used by that alien race and species, but the race itself had died out completely by the time the "official" technomages started to use it. The technology could be used by pretty much any race, and so the technomages had a range of races in their ranks, including humans and Centauri. It is later revealed that not only was the technology from the Shadows, but that in fact the technomages had no idea how to create it and thus when they wanted to induct new members into their ranks they had to go and actually specifically meet with Shadow agents to have it created for them. When the Shadow War started, the technomages had to decide how to respond. At that point, the Council found out about the deal -- only the leader of the Council knew about it, at least officially, before then -- and decided that they couldn't fight the Shadows, but didn't want to become their soldiers, and so they decided to go into hiding, leading to the events on Babylon 5.

    As it turns out, the Shadow tech they were using also makes them aggressive, which seems to be a deliberate plan on the part of the Shadows. The original species wiped themselves out over just this sort of aggression, and it seems that the technomages might well go the same way. At any rate, with their rejection of the Shadows and with the Shadows leaving, there is no way for them to create new technology and so no way to induct new members into the technomages, and so regardless the technomages, as an Order, are eventually doomed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron
    And that assumes the person who wrote down the scribbles did have an ''official seal'' . And that even if it got a seal it was not just an ''evil money grubbing faceless dude who gave the seal to anyone just to make money''.
    The full history was given in a book series where JMS was known for wanting to get out more history and not about making money. Additionally, many of these details were supposed to be revealed in the canon follow-up "Crusade", and many of them were: Galen's relationship and the details of the technomages and the fate of Elric through the meeting with Alwyn. But most importantly, the details that are not revealed in this episode are unimportant and not things that NEEDED to be revealed here. Them only being revealed in secondary works -- or in Crusade, where technomages were more important -- is perfectly appropriate and not an idea that the creator didn't find them important enough to bother mentioning. Well, okay, there is that, but it's not that they aren't important to the WORLD overall, but that they aren't important to THAT STORY ARC.
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  2. - Top - End - #332

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    As per the officially "sealed" "The Passing of the Technomages" Trilogy, if I recall correctly:
    Not a bad back story....too bad they could not have added like even a tiny, tiny, tiny bit to the episode.

    As a viewer, the Technomages don't look like anything other then silly Cosplay Fanboys with some silly tricks. The show can't even spare the thirty seconds it would have taken to have a character say ''wow, technomages, they are an ancient cult made up of members of all races that have strange, unknown technology and have been around for thousands of years." See...in less then thirty seconds they go from ''I can do magic mom'' to ''woah, something intresting''.

    And like when Elric talks to Sheridan, again he could have said something like ''We technomages are part of an ancient legacy, pasted down by person to person and race to race across the stars " and then said this whole ''I know the secret words of love'' thing.

    And it would have made more sense as to why ''Earth was interested in them''. The Episode makes it look like Earth is like ''find out why the Cosplay Fanboys are going to Comcon!'' and not ''Find out why the mysterious members of a secret cult with unknown technology and ancient legacy are going Beyond the Rim''.

    And it would have made more sense for the whole ''fear of the unknown''. The episode is like ''haha, look at the Cosplay Fanboy do his ''force choke'' on the guy who took his parking spot'' and not ''you will fall under an ancient and mysterious curse ".

    It's all about perception....

  3. - Top - End - #333
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Not a bad back story....too bad they could not have added like even a tiny, tiny, tiny bit to the episode.

    As a viewer, the Technomages don't look like anything other then silly Cosplay Fanboys with some silly tricks. The show can't even spare the thirty seconds it would have taken to have a character say ''wow, technomages, they are an ancient cult made up of members of all races that have strange, unknown technology and have been around for thousands of years." See...in less then thirty seconds they go from ''I can do magic mom'' to ''woah, something intresting''.
    But they did. The entirety of Londo's sub-plot with them starts from him both hinting at their history and how it's an ominous sign, and links it back to a long-ago meeting between a technomage and the Centauri emperor. That's why Londo seeks them out, in order to get their endorsement because it will help HIM become emperor. So from that it's clear that they've been around for a long time, have power, have influence, and can be very, very scary. The only thing left out is if they are one race or are a mix of races, but I think the ones we see pretty much highlighted that already (although I could be mistaken about that), and isn't that important either.

    And it would have made more sense as to why ''Earth was interested in them''. The Episode makes it look like Earth is like ''find out why the Cosplay Fanboys are going to Comcon!'' and not ''Find out why the mysterious members of a secret cult with unknown technology and ancient legacy are going Beyond the Rim''.
    Earth wanted to know why this secret, mysterious and powerful group were suddenly arriving on Babylon 5 in force when, in general, you never saw more than one of them at any one point. The answer was "We're gathering together to leave to avoid the war", given in the episode. This is all made clear in the episode itself. Again, you are complaining that the episode didn't explain things that it specifically did explain.
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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Everyone we see looks human. Londo even says ''look at that HUMAN technomage''
    Holy ****, 10 years of watching the show and i totally missed that.

    My bad. You are right; apparently Technomages do accept other races in their orser.

  5. - Top - End - #335
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    The Geometry of Shadows
    *Wimpy Ivanova- Remember when crazy violent Ivanova was scary...here she just gets..um, knocked down and hurt.
    Actually, that scene was added to explain why Ivanova would be in a cast for a bit, since Claudia Christian broke her foot while they were filming. So she's trying to be "diplomatic" and gets hurt as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Fascist Earth-Again Earth ''wants to know'' what the technomages are up too, like the B5 universe does not have the Bill of Rights.
    Given that Earth now has a governing body, it doesn't. It may or may not have something similar as part of its own constitution, but we can't automatically assume that, or that it works exactly the same as ours if they do.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

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  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    AGiven that Earth now has a governing body, it doesn't. It may or may not have something similar as part of its own constitution, but we can't automatically assume that, or that it works exactly the same as ours if they do.
    Plus, that was just another sign of Earth moving towards being more fascistic. Sheridan, remember, deliberately points out that it's not in the rules to spy on visitors, and the person he's talking to appeals to the needs of Earth of justify it.
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  7. - Top - End - #337
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Actually, that scene was added to explain why Ivanova would be in a cast for a bit, since Claudia Christian broke her foot while they were filming. So she's trying to be "diplomatic" and gets hurt as a result.
    Ivanova is also just scary because of how she acts - a confident, competent officer who will tear strips off anybody who interferes with her duties or the running of Babylon 5 in general. It's never implied that they're scared of her because she's likely to punch them in the face. Heck, Ivanova probably isn't especially good at fighting. She's trained as a pilot and starship officer, not as a grunt - she likely hasn't gone through combat training since Basic. I'm sure she could hold her own but she isn't martially trained like the Rangers or experienced like Garibaldi is.

    The diplomatic bit is another part of it - I'm sure that trying NOT to punch the Drazi ambassador in the face was more in the forefront of her mind at that exact moment than anything else.

    ------

    On the Technomages, I actually prefer the lack of backstory. Knowing where they get their technology from ruins the mystique - as depicted in the show, they're yet another of the wonderful mysteries of the galaxy.

  8. - Top - End - #338

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    So from that it's clear that they've been around for a long time, have power, have influence, and can be very, very scary.
    Except that is not what we get. We only learn that some ''republican-like'' Centari respect them and they were around at the time of the first Centari emperor. That is it.

    Now...if a single writer could have ever taken the effort to give the viewers even a vague timeline, we might know ''how long ago'' the first Centari emperor was. Sure the Centari are an ''older race'', but how old? Humans are ''close'' to the Centari, and they only got one world government and space travel like less then 300 years ago. And see, it would have been so, so, so, so easy for Londo to say ''2,000 years ago when the first emperor...."

    And there is no hit of ''power'' or ''scary'', but again Londo could have taken 30 seconds to add a nice scary story about the technomages. But...no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Earth wanted to know why this secret, mysterious and powerful group were suddenly arriving on Babylon 5 in force when, in general, you never saw more than one of them at any one point. The answer was "We're gathering together to leave to avoid the war", given in the episode. This is all made clear in the episode itself. Again, you are complaining that the episode didn't explain things that it specifically did explain.
    Except we only know they are a mysterious and secret group, so Earth's interest makes no sense. Again, it's like the government going after some cosplay people.

    Can you give one example from the episode of the technomages power? They do, as the episode says, ''magic tricks with technology''. That is it. Tricks...smoke and mirrors.

    The only things we see them do: holograms, more holograms, holograms, record a conversation, zap a camera, infect a computer with a ''virus deamon'' are all right at the ''common'', even Earth, level to technology. Sure you can sat they have ''custom'' stuff that is (slightly) more advanced then the normal commercially available tech...but that is not much of a ''wow''.

    So...where did you ''between the pixels'' see any of this explained?

  9. - Top - End - #339
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Except that is not what we get. We only learn that some ''republican-like'' Centari respect them and they were around at the time of the first Centari emperor. That is it.

    Now...if a single writer could have ever taken the effort to give the viewers even a vague timeline, we might know ''how long ago'' the first Centari emperor was. Sure the Centari are an ''older race'', but how old? Humans are ''close'' to the Centari, and they only got one world government and space travel like less then 300 years ago. And see, it would have been so, so, so, so easy for Londo to say ''2,000 years ago when the first emperor...."
    The Centauri Republic rose to galactic prominence and was well into its decline when they met the humans, so we can definitely presume that we're in the range of thousands of years -- at least 1000 -- which is indeed a long time for one single unaligned group. The blessing of the technomage was important to the first emperor at the time -- at least according to the Centauri -- which is why the symbolism would be important for Londo now, implying that they had and still have influence. That Earthforce knows about them and cares enough to try to find out what they're up to is another indication of that.

    And there is no hit of ''power'' or ''scary'', but again Londo could have taken 30 seconds to add a nice scary story about the technomages. But...no.
    Londo explicitly states that seeing one technomage is something to pay attention to and that seeing more than one is a bad sign. Vir, when asked to go set up an appointment with them, is clearly frightened at the prospect, and he knows all of the stories. And it's made clear that while everyone knows that they use technology to pull off their tricks, no one knows how they do that. So, yeah, a pretty good indication that they have powers beyond the usual and that what they can and do do intimidates people.

    Except we only know they are a mysterious and secret group, so Earth's interest makes no sense. Again, it's like the government going after some cosplay people.
    Where do you get this notion of them being like "cosplay people"? They clearly have abilities and technology that Earth doesn't understand. They're also a group that aren't seen very often, and are almost never seen in groups. And suddenly a group of them are coming to Babylon 5. Yeah, Earthforce is indeed going to want to know why.

    Can you give one example from the episode of the technomages power? They do, as the episode says, ''magic tricks with technology''. That is it. Tricks...smoke and mirrors.

    The only things we see them do: holograms, more holograms, holograms, record a conversation, zap a camera, infect a computer with a ''virus deamon'' are all right at the ''common'', even Earth, level to technology. Sure you can sat they have ''custom'' stuff that is (slightly) more advanced then the normal commercially available tech...but that is not much of a ''wow''.

    So...where did you ''between the pixels'' see any of this explained?
    We haven't seen holograms of the sort of complexity and with the ability to do what the technomages can do, and Vir -- from a more advanced race than humanity -- is indeed impressed by them. Londo's only options when dealing with the daemon are to apologize or try to put up with it, despite his having access to the most advanced security programs that the Centauri and Earthforce have to offer. Londo also has access to the best hidden cameras Centauri Intelligence could provide and it doesn't fool Elric for a second. And while pretty much everything they did were at the level of pranks, that's clearly because that's all they were TRYING to do. If you look at the implications of their technology, if they wanted Londo dead they could certainly have killed him, or certainly could have killed Vir. Elric makes the Gandalf threat about not angering wizards and the people who know just what they are capable of TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. All of those are pretty good indications that they have power beyond that of common Earth tech AND are people you should take seriously.

    I'm not sure what more you want. It's a valid interpretation to say that you, personally, are not impressed by their technology level and see them more as tricksters who put on a good show, and that might even be a stance that some people in universe hold, but the episode definitely provides more than enough evidence to suggest that they might well be more than that, and whether they are technological tricksters or a real threat isn't that relevant. Even if you think they shouldn't be seen as they are in-universe, they ARE seen that way, and that drives the plot of the episode. There is no reason to ask for more.

    (And we get more in Crusade.)
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  10. - Top - End - #340

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    The Centauri Republic rose to galactic prominence and was well into its decline when they met the humans, so we can definitely presume that we're in the range of thousands of years -- at least 1000 -- which is indeed a long time for one single unaligned group.
    You can ''assume and guess'', I watch the show for such details.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Londo explicitly states that seeing one technomage is something to pay attention to and that seeing more than one is a bad sign. Vir, when asked to go set up an appointment with them, is clearly frightened at the prospect, and he knows all of the stories. And it's made clear that while everyone knows that they use technology to pull off their tricks, no one knows how they do that. So, yeah, a pretty good indication that they have powers beyond the usual and that what they can and do do intimidates people.
    Wish we, the viewers, knew even one technomage horror story. The way the episode is, it's ''the technomages are scary as we the writers say they are..haha''.

    You make a huge leap from ''they do tricks'' to ''they have powers beyond the grasp of normal man''. Penn and Teller (aka Rebo and Zooty) do magic tricks, but you would not say they have ''great power beyond anything else'' right? Someone can pull a rabbit out of a hat and they can bend time and space like play dough? Big leap on your part that has no basis in the show.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Where do you get this notion of them being like "cosplay people"? They clearly have abilities and technology that Earth doesn't understand. They're also a group that aren't seen very often, and are almost never seen in groups. And suddenly a group of them are coming to Babylon 5. Yeah, Earthforce is indeed going to want to know why.
    The technomages are just people that dress up in silly costumes, are mysterious and use technology to do magic-like tricks. That is all the episode says about them. So by that definition they are no different then that cospaly guy traveling to comicon dressed as ''Harry Potter'' and can do magic tricks.

    When in the episode does a single character say ''the technomages have abilities and technology Earth does not understand?''


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    We haven't seen holograms of the sort of complexity and with the ability to do what the technomages can do, and Vir -- from a more advanced race than humanity -- is indeed impressed by them. Londo's only options when dealing with the daemon are to apologize or try to put up with it, despite his having access to the most advanced security programs that the Centauri and Earthforce have to offer. Londo also has access to the best hidden cameras Centauri Intelligence could provide and it doesn't fool Elric for a second. And while pretty much everything they did were at the level of pranks, that's clearly because that's all they were TRYING to do. If you look at the implications of their technology, if they wanted Londo dead they could certainly have killed him, or certainly could have killed Vir. Elric makes the Gandalf threat about not angering wizards and the people who know just what they are capable of TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. All of those are pretty good indications that they have power beyond that of common Earth tech AND are people you should take seriously.
    Again, your reaching and just adding stuff at random. We have seen tons of holograms, and nothing the technomges do is so holographicaly amazing.

    You say Londo can't do anything about the ''deamon'', but ok, give me a quite from the episode where a character says that.

    You say Londo has access to the ''most advanced '' programs? Really why? But, ok, if he does give me even one quite from the show up to this point where a character says to Londo ''Here is the most super advanced program for you to use''.

    You say Londo has ''access to the best hidden cameras Centauri Intelligence could provide', ok, again where is your proof? When have we seen Londo use ''the most advanced tech Centauri Intelligance has'' ever in the show to this point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    I'm not sure what more you want. It's a valid interpretation to say that you, personally, are not impressed by their technology level and see them more as tricksters who put on a good show, and that might even be a stance that some people in universe hold, but the episode definitely provides more than enough evidence to suggest that they might well be more than that, and whether they are technological tricksters or a real threat isn't that relevant. Even if you think they shouldn't be seen as they are in-universe, they ARE seen that way, and that drives the plot of the episode. There is no reason to ask for more.

    (And we get more in Crusade.)
    I'd want a better written episode.

    So what in the episode do you see that is so great and amazing? We see the technomages use holograms, cameras to make recoding's, something that can detect and zap a camera and computer virus. So, nothing impressive. I really do wonder what you see as so impressive? In the first episode of the season Kefer gets a holo letter, so lets compare it to the Vir hologram in the glove...well lets see the Vir hologram was smaller....um, wow, not that impressive. We see the technomage has a camera to record things...well, Earth force has flying robo cameras and Londo has a little spy cam, so again that the ''technomage has a camera'' is not impressive.

    Note also no one in the episode ever says ''the technomages are a threat'' OR ''the technomages have secret advanced tech''. Your somehow saying that when Londo says ''look at technomage'' he is also saying in a subliminal message ''a strange, powerful, mysterious, unknown, master of advanced technology and dark powers and secrets''. But in the episode, he just says ''look a technomage''.

    Like most problems in Tv shows this would have been an easy fix.

    1.Have a character say something like ''the advanced tech they have''.
    2.Show a single technomage do Anything that can not be explained by the normal tech of the TV universe.
    3.Even better, combine the two with a nice story to give us an example of the technomages power and horror.

    For example: Londo-"My great grand Uncle was a warrior in the third Emperor's guard, during the Revolt of the Blue. A single technomage with the touch of his hand turned the whole of the River Vorntroi into toxic fire water and smoke that decimated the rebels. "

    Vir-''Londo, that is just a story...."

    Londo-"A story Vir? Then why, to this day seven centuries later is the low lands around the River Vorntroi one of the few undeveloped places on Centari Prime? Why to this day can no one eat and fish from that river or drink any of the water without falling ill and dying? No, Vir, there is far, far more to the technomages then just stories and tricks...they are a dark secret power to be reckoned with."

  11. - Top - End - #341
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    Well just stop watching then. Just because you cant enjoy the show without these silly details doesnt mean we have the same standards.

    I like when a show emphasize details on what it tries to be about. This isnt "Technomages: The Series", its Babylon 5. The technomage are only relevant regarding their perceived potency and yet they fear an ever greater coming evil.

    And they see Londo's future. These elements are whats important, since this is what the show is about first and foremost.

  12. - Top - End - #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    You can ''assume and guess'', I watch the show for such details.
    Which is precisely the problem: you are expecting the show to not only give you the required information, but to also spell it out in precise detail. Doing this makes for very boring television and a lot of "As you knows" and exposition dumps. I think this episode sets out the technomages perfectly here because it manages to avoid a lot of that by using character and government reactions to set out the important details instead of bothering to tell us all of the details. The episode doesn't need to tell us explicitly that they've been around for a long time by giving us the exact years because Londo saying that they existed and were influential at the start of the Centauri Empire -- which the show has already established as being a significant time period -- does that for us. We don't need to be told precise details of them being powerful because Earthforce, Sheridan, Londo and Vir all act as if they are, nor do we need them to do more than pranks to show that they are a threat because Londo and Vir act as if they are ... especially since in character they not only have no real reason to do more than that, they in fact have a reason to NOT look like an active threat -- even though, again, everyone believes that they are capable of it -- because if they do Sheridan might need to investigate their actions deeper or interfere with their leaving the station, which they clearly don't want to happen.

    So we don't need all of those details that you say we need, and I don't think it would make the episode any better if they were added ... and, in fact, would make it WORSE.

    Wish we, the viewers, knew even one technomage horror story. The way the episode is, it's ''the technomages are scary as we the writers say they are..haha''.
    They are as scary as the CHARACTERS say they are. What you'd be trying to argue here is that they are presented as a bigger threat but when they actually do things they are shown to be far less impressive or competent than they are. But that never happens here. While what they do isn't overwhelming, it's certainly enough to demonstrate that they have abilities above and beyond the average person on the street or most mundane threats. And since they only need to be more serious than typical, mundane threats to work, that's all they need to give us to at least be able to believe that the concerns of the characters and Earthforce might be valid.

    Or maybe not. But what they do doesn't contradict and does support that impression.

    You make a huge leap from ''they do tricks'' to ''they have powers beyond the grasp of normal man''. Penn and Teller (aka Rebo and Zooty) do magic tricks, but you would not say they have ''great power beyond anything else'' right? Someone can pull a rabbit out of a hat and they can bend time and space like play dough? Big leap on your part that has no basis in the show.
    If they were on the level of Rebo and Zooty, Earthforce wouldn't care about their presence on the station, their blessing would have been meaningless, and Londo would not have taken the presence of multiple technomages as a bad omen. So the episode is indeed clear that that's the case. Given that, we don't need them to explicitly demonstrate that to believe that they are. Again, I'm not sure why you think we need more.

    When in the episode does a single character say ''the technomages have abilities and technology Earth does not understand?''
    I'd have to rewatch it, but I'm pretty sure that it is strongly implied if not outright stated in the discussions between Sheridan and the Senator that one of the reasons Earthforce is worried about the technomages is that they don't know HOW they do the things they do.

    Again, your reaching and just adding stuff at random. We have seen tons of holograms, and nothing the technomges do is so holographicaly amazing.
    As you say below, we can compare it to the message from Kefler's girlfriend. They are much larger, much more detailed, and actually can physically interact with the world (if they didn't show it directly, I don't think Kefler could have touched that image). There's good reason to think that they are more impressive than the average hologram.

    You say Londo can't do anything about the ''deamon'', but ok, give me a quite from the episode where a character says that.
    If Londo could have done something about it, he would have done that instead of apologizing. His options are presented as live with it or apologize, and he eventually apologizes.

    You say Londo has access to the ''most advanced '' programs? Really why? But, ok, if he does give me even one quite from the show up to this point where a character says to Londo ''Here is the most super advanced program for you to use''.

    You say Londo has ''access to the best hidden cameras Centauri Intelligence could provide', ok, again where is your proof? When have we seen Londo use ''the most advanced tech Centauri Intelligance has'' ever in the show to this point?
    Londo is the ambassador to Babylon 5, and so handles very sensitive information. He also has, on his own, a large number of private security resources, as evidenced in the episode where they try to steal his "Purple Files". While being the ambassador of Babylon 5 was seen as a joke originally, at this point as events in the galaxy heat up it is becoming more prominent AND Londo is starting to gain a lot of influence due to what the Shadows have done for him, which is indeed why he wanted their blessing because at this point he can see himself on a path TO BECOMING EMPEROR. He should be able to get a really good, undetectable spy camera, and he clearly thinks that it shouldn't have been detected ... and Elric detects it pretty much immediately, and uses that to trap Londo AND use that to influence Sheridan.

    I'd want a better written episode.
    There's nothing wrong with how it's written. You are nitpicking over details that, if added, wouldn't make it better.

    So what in the episode do you see that is so great and amazing? We see the technomages use holograms, cameras to make recoding's, something that can detect and zap a camera and computer virus. So, nothing impressive. I really do wonder what you see as so impressive? In the first episode of the season Kefer gets a holo letter, so lets compare it to the Vir hologram in the glove...well lets see the Vir hologram was smaller....um, wow, not that impressive. We see the technomage has a camera to record things...well, Earth force has flying robo cameras and Londo has a little spy cam, so again that the ''technomage has a camera'' is not impressive.
    So the massive monster filling the hall with light and sound that Vir had to scream to be heard over was SMALLER than Keffer's? Really? One of us is remembering these episodes incorrectly ...

    Note also no one in the episode ever says ''the technomages are a threat'' OR ''the technomages have secret advanced tech''. Your somehow saying that when Londo says ''look at technomage'' he is also saying in a subliminal message ''a strange, powerful, mysterious, unknown, master of advanced technology and dark powers and secrets''. But in the episode, he just says ''look a technomage''.
    He says that there's a technomage, and it's a bad omen to see more than one at a time. Earthforce wants to know what they are up to because they have abilities and aren't normally seen together. Elric deliberately invokes Gandalf and no one blinks at the comparison. Vir is scared out of his wits to even go talk to them. Londo getting their blessing would be a big boon towards his becoming Emperor. They so mess with Londo that he has no choice but to apologize. And, as I said, it's clear from what they did that they could have killed either Vir or Londo if they wanted to (and you never answered why I'd be wrong about that).

    How much of a threat do you want them to be? They aren't supposed to be little gods, but they are enough that if you, say, sent a security guard to arrest them it's not likely to actually work, for various reasons from little tricks to them being able to kill them. And all of this is established: their technology and tricks are mysterious and things that they ought not have known or been able to do. For example, while the orange blossom wasn't all that impressive on its own this semi-random technomage KNOWING what that meant to Sheridan was the point there, hinted at with the discussion of all the things they know.

    The knowledge is more impressive than the specific technological abilities, even to the technomages, and the technical abilities from just one of them are impressive considering, again, that those are easily accessible by one individual.

    3.Even better, combine the two with a nice story to give us an example of the technomages power and horror.

    For example: Londo-"My great grand Uncle was a warrior in the third Emperor's guard, during the Revolt of the Blue. A single technomage with the touch of his hand turned the whole of the River Vorntroi into toxic fire water and smoke that decimated the rebels. "

    Vir-''Londo, that is just a story...."

    Londo-"A story Vir? Then why, to this day seven centuries later is the low lands around the River Vorntroi one of the few undeveloped places on Centari Prime? Why to this day can no one eat and fish from that river or drink any of the water without falling ill and dying? No, Vir, there is far, far more to the technomages then just stories and tricks...they are a dark secret power to be reckoned with."
    You realize that doing that IS within the reach of the existing technology in the universe, right, especially with them being tricksters? This wouldn't do what you wanted it to do and, again, I don't think it's necessary.
    BSG PBF record on BGG: 16 - 17.

    "For a nice guy, you're kind of a jerk" - Ayane, P4: The Animation

    "Stop saving the world and get a hobby" - Seto Kaiba

  13. - Top - End - #343
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    BlackDragon

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    If you want confirmation that yes, the Technomages are as powerful as all that: there's an episode of Crusade (yes, I did watch some of those) where, in order to trick an Earthforce captain into letting him destroy a mine, Captain Gideon shows him a technomage doing some wibbly wobbly down on the planet below and says something along the lines of, "They have powers beyond anything we know, he could shoot your ship right out of the sky". The Earthforce captain believes this, which he would have no reason to if the Technomages didn't have a certain reputation. (Also note that the Technomage in question survives a direct hit on the location he's at by the Excalibur's main weapon, which means either he does have some pretty awesome power or he's capable of creating an illusion so realistic that it's believed even with the sensor capabilities of an Earthforce destroyer probing it).

  14. - Top - End - #344
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    PaladinGuy

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    I don't really like that part of the example because here that kind of planet-shaking power isn't what's being hinted at. There's a direct reference to Gandalf and that's really how they're supposed to be taken: subtle beings relying more on their knowledge but with some teeth behind it if they need it. So what the technomage does to stop the mining is more in line with what the technomages are about than that move.

    But, yes, it's more likely that the technomage created that convincing an illusion, since he had already done it with his dragon, and Galen also creates an utterly unconvincingly drawn and acted illusion of himself that fools an alien probe into thinking that it's a real person so that it will take it away for dissection.

    "Oh, look, there goes my liver! I'd wondered where that had gotten to."

    As for Crusade, I own the DVD of the entire series and have watched it repeatedly, and my opinion is that any episode that Galen is in is a good one, and the others are ... meh, at best.
    BSG PBF record on BGG: 16 - 17.

    "For a nice guy, you're kind of a jerk" - Ayane, P4: The Animation

    "Stop saving the world and get a hobby" - Seto Kaiba

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    A Distant Star

    An Earth Force Explorer ship visits the station.

    The Cortez- Well, not a very politically correct name for a ship. Now, sure, Cortez was an explorer(sort of), so technically it fits for an explorer type ship. Still, well, there are plenty of other explorers.

    Poor Doc Franklin: Sigh, with nothing to do poor Dr. Franklin is given the silly food plan sub plot.

    The Rim, again: Well, we are talking about the new human explored ''rim'' here.

    Foreshadowing: Notice how everyone is eating in their civilian clothing, but poor Doc Franklin is still in uniform?

    Foreshadowing 2: The Shadow Battle Crab. ''something strange in hyperspace''

    Start the mini arc: Keffer's arc starts here.


    Speak like an Egyptian: This is the first time we hear the ancient blessing...

    Things that don't make Sense:

    Resupply at B5?- Would B5 really have ''all'' the supplies needed? Most episodes do the ''B5 is like living rough'' and characters are like ''I have not eaten an apple in seven years''. And for a lot of items, well it's not like B5 has room for huge warehouses or anything. Or did the Cortez order everything they needed on U-Bay and have it shipped to the station?

    The Cortez design: So the ship as a middle rotating doughnut for normal Earth gravity. But the ship is huge, and the rest is all in mirco gravity. So...how does the crew go from the ring spinning at 60 miles and hour to the rest of the ship and back?

    Small Space- Sure is good that the Cortez blows a fuse like right next to B5....

    Missing Ships- So at the pre flight rescue briefing we see a good 12 to 15 pilots. Yet only five fighters are sent out? So where did everyone else go?

    The Unknown Object(aka the Shadow Battle Crab)- So Keffer sees the unknown object in hyperspace and is like ''computer analyze that unknown objects flight path''. So...this would mean ''the computer'' can sense and detect the object, right? Guess the ''computer'' forgot to record anything though...

    Final-C, it's and ok episode, just not great or anything.

  16. - Top - End - #346
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Poor Doc Franklin: Sigh, with nothing to do poor Dr. Franklin is given the silly food plan sub plot.
    Hey, I like the more mundane subplots. It makes the universe feel real. Not everything is end of days apocalypse and it's nice to see that. If I'm recalling correctly this is also the start of Garibaldi and Franklin's friendship that becomes important later.

    Foreshadowing: Notice how everyone is eating in their civilian clothing, but poor Doc Franklin is still in uniform?
    I think it's a stretch to call it foreshadowing - Franklin was likely just on a different shift from everybody else. I don't think we see him really start overworking until the Markab plague and sickbay starts getting flooded with refugees during the Narn/Centauri war.

    Resupply at B5?- Would B5 really have ''all'' the supplies needed? Most episodes do the ''B5 is like living rough'' and characters are like ''I have not eaten an apple in seven years''. And for a lot of items, well it's not like B5 has room for huge warehouses or anything. Or did the Cortez order everything they needed on U-Bay and have it shipped to the station?
    Why wouldn't B5 have the supplies? It's a space station the size of a small city. Sheridan said that he hadn't eaten an orange in years, but that was because he was on the Agamemnon. Once he got to B5 he began chowing down on oranges like crazy. There are limits to what they can grow - fresh coffee is largely unavailable for example, because it isn't a staple fruit or vegetable and there isn't room. In terms of warehousing there is a massive set of docking bays with a large number of dock workers that get several episodes of focus. Most of the traffic that comes through Babylon 5 is commercial and it's always been my impression that the station is a major transshipping port. For a ship like the Cortez that wants to get back on the road again it would be a perfect stopping place so they don't have to go deeper into Earth space for resupply. One assumes the Cortez called ahead and arranged for any specialized equipment they needed to be shipped to Babylon 5 ahead of time and placed into the warehouses until they can pick it up.

    Most of what the crew say they can't get is fresh food, because B5 has limited growing space. The Cortez isn't picking up fresh food, they're a deep space explorer ship for which easily storable food trumps tasty. The other things we see them having trouble getting is mostly specialty stuff, like Garibaldi's bagna cauda. I can't go to a store and buy bagna cauda and I live on the same planet as where it's made! That Garibaldi would need to ship in the ingredients isn't far-fetched, especially if he's trying to make it for a special occasion and doesn't want what passes for "olive oil" in deep space.

    The Unknown Object(aka the Shadow Battle Crab)- So Keffer sees the unknown object in hyperspace and is like ''computer analyze that unknown objects flight path''. So...this would mean ''the computer'' can sense and detect the object, right? Guess the ''computer'' forgot to record anything though...
    His computer did record it. However, his ship was badly damaged and he later states that his computer was too badly damaged to recover usable data. Even if there were anomalies on what was recovered it would have been written off as glitches from the damage.

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    The Long Dark

    An old Earth sleeper ship brings a murderous entity onboard B5.

    Look who it Is: Lurker Amis is played by Dwight Schulz, know for being ''Howling Mad'' Murdock on the A-team and Lt. Reg Barkley on Star Trek the Next Generation.

    ''Shell Shocked''- Amis has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, but that was not in common usage yet.

    Creepy Doc Franklin: Well, he gets an episode, but...Dr. Franklin's behavior in this episode is very unprofessional. He lets himself get too emotionally involved with a patient. Mariah has just lost her husband and has found herself 100 years in the future. She's in no condition to rationally become involved with someone. Franklin should know better. However, this quick relationship he forms helps establish that he definitely has his imperfections.

    Foreshadwoing-The shadow soldier was heading for....wait for it...Z'ha'dum.

    Things that Don't Make Sense:

    Strange Ship- People don't seem to recognize the ship, but 100 years is not a long time. You'd think everyone would have taken ''History of space flight'' in school.

    Soldier of Darkness- Everyone just kinda automatically says the monster is this...but this is an oddly specific description. ''Soldier'' is an odd thing to call a monster/ghost. ''Harvester'' or ''vampire'' of Darkness is a bit more obvious.

    Odd Foreshadowing- The league is all about ''a Darkness'' that was ''defeated long ago'' and ''works through agents'' and ''hides in places'' and is ''now returning like a great hand reaching out''. But it's all so vague....but of course they are talking about a Shadow warrior.

    Markab ambassador ''Bob''-Sure seems to be an expert on ''darkness and shadows'' and sure believes what he says. Was he on vacation a couple episodes ago when G'Kar was all about the ''evil dark and shadowy aliens coming back''? You'd think he would have leaped up to say ''bother G'Kar speaks the truth!"

    The League of shadows- For that matter it does seem like the whole league is behind Markab ambassador ''Bob'' like ''yup, yup, darkness and shadows...you preach the truth Bob''. Yet, again, where was all this faith a couple episodes ago?

    The ''shadow warrior'' is a 12 foot tall energy being(?) that eats people(?) and removes their weight(?) and possesses people(?) and removes their organs(?) and telepathically steals a bit of the persons mind/soul(?) and can become invisible and phase through matter and survive in space.....guess it's lucky it stands still so the heavy PPG rifle blasts can kill it.

    Captain's Log-So, Sheridan does make some kind of report to Earth right? So in that log for ''March 22nd'' he would have put the ''the day the soldier of Darkness attacked the station. " And in that report he would have put ''it was heading to Z'ha'dum'', right? Wonder if any of the shadow agents in Earth Gov read that report?


    Final-C, This episode plays as a one-off monster episode, but there are some good ties to the overall mysteries in the series. And it's always fun to watch Dwight Schulz.

  18. - Top - End - #348
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    The Cortez design: So the ship as a middle rotating doughnut for normal Earth gravity. But the ship is huge, and the rest is all in mirco gravity. So...how does the crew go from the ring spinning at 60 miles and hour to the rest of the ship and back?
    Have a circular train track down at the middle (where the rotation is slowest in terms of linear speed). Crew get onto the stationary train which then accelerates up to match the speed of the other part and locks on to another door. One assumes the crew would not be spending a great deal of their time in the zero-gravity sections of the ship anyway--they'd only need to go in there for inspections and repairs.

  19. - Top - End - #349

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Have a circular train track down at the middle (where the rotation is slowest in terms of linear speed). Crew get onto the stationary train which then accelerates up to match the speed of the other part and locks on to another door. One assumes the crew would not be spending a great deal of their time in the zero-gravity sections of the ship anyway--they'd only need to go in there for inspections and repairs.
    So like a shuttle pod then?

    The crew would spend a great deal of time....like several hours a day in the mirco gravity sections. They can't just hide in the rotating section.

  20. - Top - End - #350
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    So like a shuttle pod then?

    The crew would spend a great deal of time....like several hours a day in the mirco gravity sections. They can't just hide in the rotating section.
    Why is that a problem? Not all Earth ships even have a rotating section. Heavy cruisers don't have artificial gravity at all, and neither do any Narn ships seen on the show.

    As far as I know, the only races confirmed to have gravity technology are the Minbari and the Centauri (as well as obviously the Vorlons and Shadows). The other races all travel in zero gravity.

    From a realism standpoint, the only issue is that being in zero-G/microgravity for long periods causes health problems. Something which I'm certain wasn't widely known back in 1996. Even then, you can argue that future medical advances have advanced sufficiently to mitigate that.

  21. - Top - End - #351
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    As far as I know, the only races confirmed to have gravity technology are the Minbari and the Centauri (as well as obviously the Vorlons and Shadows). The other races all travel in zero gravity.
    I recall reading somewhere (or it was maybe on the DVD commentary) that some races rely on constant acceleration to provide gravity and design their ships accordingly. As for the long-term health issues of zero gravity, it's worth noting that Valeri Polyakov returned from a 437-day stint aboard the Mir space station in March 1995, apparently in such good shape that he was able to walk from the capsule to a chair without needing assistance, so the effects were not only pretty well known but they're also maybe not as bad as you think they are.

    (Polyakov was, admittedly, taking part in a strict regime of exercise aboard the station--he was trying to prove that humans could live in microgravity long enough to reach Mars. There's no reason to suppose that the doctors of 2250-odd would not be able to put the ship crews through similar exercise, though).

  22. - Top - End - #352

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Why is that a problem?
    It's not a problem....I'm asking if they have ever said how it is done.

    For that matter, how does one get to the non spinning part of B5? Do they have to fly in a shuttle out the main entrance, stop and slow down and stop spinning, then fly over to the cargo area?

  23. - Top - End - #353
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    BlackDragon

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    They haven't ever explicitly said how it's done, because it really doesn't matter in the slightest. I already came up with a potential explanation in thirty seconds off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others you could think of if you put your mind to it.

  24. - Top - End - #354

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    They haven't ever explicitly said how it's done, because it really doesn't matter in the slightest. I already came up with a potential explanation in thirty seconds off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others you could think of if you put your mind to it.
    Just wondering. I just watch the show, but others ''see'' stuff in the show that is not there, so I just wondered if anyone saw the answer when they watched the show.


    Also the technomages ''daemon virus'' made we wonder...how advanced are the Minbari and Centari? Earth has ''all most like 20th century Earth...but in space''. We sure don't see much fancy or advanced Earth tech and it's sure not common place. Though we don't see much alien tech. Both the Minbari and Centari have artificial gravity and tractor beams, but we don't get to see much else.

    So are the Minbari and Centari like ''100 years'' past Earth? More? We know the Minbari had space travel and warships 1,000 years ago, so like 1259 when humans had...um...fire and sharp sticks. But the Minbari can't be like 2,000 years ahead of humans or they would not be able to relate to humans at all.

    Computers alone are hard enough. Take just 50 years to 1967. Think of a 2017 person with an iphone and ipad and laptop going to a place that had 1967 tech. Well, there would be no wireless internet (or really any internet). And 100 years...well, in 1917 you could not even plug your things in to recharge them.

    So when Minbari and Centari come to B5, are they ''camping'' : choosing to live without technology?

  25. - Top - End - #355
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    BlackDragon

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    Centauri reached space during the closing stages of the previous Shadow Wars, so they're around a thousand years ahead of humans technologically--Minbari are beyond that, of course, because they'd been a spacefaring race for centuries at that point. As for why you don't see them use much of that tech on B5, B5 is an Earth Alliance station and was presumably built with human technology--I doubt either the Minbari or the Centauri would want to bring advanced tech aboard for fear the humans would steal it.

    Note that "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" shows a far future humanity who have become energy beings like the Vorlons, but that's supposed to be a million years in the future, so it seems there must come a point where technological development slows somewhat for a race--maybe once you've got artificial gravity and the like there isn't much else to learn until you get the really transcental stuff, which takes ages?

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    Default A Spider in the Web, Soul Mates, A Race Through Dark Places

    This week, we'll be discussing:
    • A Spider in the Web
    • Soul Mates
    • A Race Through Dark Places


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  27. - Top - End - #357
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    BlackDragon

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    A Spider in the Web: This is another of those episodes that's a bit meh given what we know happens later. It's all about people being reprogrammed with other personalities, which is obviously important as far as Talia Winters goes, but since she disappears from the series before her time, it's kind of irrelevant in the long run. Is that Zack Allan's first appearance, though? Don't recall seeing him before, but he's definitely lurking around with Sheridan and Garibaldi.

    Soul Mates: Delenn's bad hair day, Londo's wives, and Talia's husband, none of which are relevant to the on-going arc plot. Feels like a filler episode, and while that word is over-used these days, I think it fits here.

    A Race Through Dark Places: Again, an episode whose impact is diminished by what happens to Talia later. We learn that she's a lot more powerful than her official Psi-Corps rating would suggest, probably due to the stuff her ex-lover did last season in Mind War, which would presumably have had a payoff in future seasons when they learned telepaths could cripple Shadow ships. Alas, not to be. The only really arc-significant part of the episode is Delenn and Sheridan going out on a date for the first time.

    Overall: Due to the heavy concentration on Talia, who we know will shortly disappear through a trapdoor never to be seen again, all three of these episodes are a bit meh as far as the over-arching story goes. However, even poor B5 is generally watchable (Grey 17 is Missing excepted, of course), and these are no exception.

  28. - Top - End - #358
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Grey 17 is Missing is actually kind of interesting. The A plot is execrable, but the B plot is quite good and contains great character moments and sets up developments further down the line. Of course, proper discussion should wait until we get to that episode, but I had it on the brain already since I just hit that episode in my re-watch.

    A Spider in the Web - Agreed, the episode is important solely for establishing personality hijacking as a thing. Other than that it's pretty meh. Per the wiki this is indeed Zack's first appearance. I had always assumed Zack was introduced to replace Lou Welch, but they actually show up together in a few episodes before Lou gets eaten by an allosaurus. I wonder if the actor knew he couldn't do a full season so they overlapped the episodes?

    Soul Mates - I really like this one. It's another character episode, and it's just generally charming. I think it's one of the earliest episodes we get to see what Londo and G'kar are like when they aren't actively hateful towards each other, and it's just plain hilarious. I could do without the Talia plot though - her ex-husband needs to take lessons from Mr. Morden on how to be insufferably smug without making the audience hate you.

    A Race through Dark Places - Best thing from this episode is the mini-plot with Sheridan dragging Ivanova into his boycott of the new rent policy. I get a good laugh out of the whole thing every time. The telepath plot is important setup to truly establish how horrible the Psi Corps is, but beyond that the execution is kinda clunky. It also feels too early for new guy Sheridan to be dealing with, and is one of the few cases where the loss of Sinclair is really felt.

  29. - Top - End - #359
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    Grey 17 is missing is a Season 3 episode, you are early ;)

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    A Spider in the Web

    An assassin tries to foil a plan to help make the Mars colony independent.

    Talia-Humm, who is this character....oh, wait she is that telepath we never see and does not do anything.

    San Diego Wastelands- So some terrorists in the B5 universe blew up San Diego....interesting.

    Amanda Carter-her great-grandfather was John Carter of Mars....lol.

    EAS Pournelle-The Earthforce Omega-class destroyer (aka ''the cruiser'') that kills Horn..wounder if they named it after the sci-fi writer Jerry Pournelle who wrote some sci-fi military stuff?

    Zak Allen-It's his first appearance.

    Disposable People-So the Deathborg used by Bureau 13 is kinda the same thing the
    Spoiler: click
    Show
    both the Shadpws and Vorlon's do...humm.


    Conspiracy Nut-Sheridan is a conspiracy fan.

    Bureau 13-This is an aborted arc. I guess it was going to go somewhere, but someone threatened to sue over the name. Might be a good thing...we have the shadow war coming...and the Earthgov Clark administration is all ready an evil, shadow deep state government...do we really need another?

    This that don't make Sense:

    Neutral Space-so again we are told B5 is in ''neutral space'', except the station and sector are under Earth government law. So, it's not exactly ''neutral''.

    Talia's Defense- To protect herself Talia mindscans(?) the guy to go away? Guess she forgot she could cause people telepatic pain, like we saw her do before....

    The Flashback Memory ''cruiser''- Ok, so, sure Talia does not know what the ''big ship'' she sees in the memory and says she ''thinks it's a cruiser''. But then Garibaldi and the computer TV record both say ''cruiser''. Odd...the flashback shows an omega class destroyer.


    Final-C, This episode has some interesting intrigue, but a lot of it ends up feeling a bit contrived. It does let us know that there are wheels within wheels in Earthgov, with many different levels of intrigue, and that the Psi Corps is definitely involved with some of them.

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