Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Rodin]

*Ship Watching-So people just go to Bay 13 to watch the Vorlon ship? And Kosh is ok with this? And it's not some type of violation of ambassadorial protocol?

I believe it's only station personnel that are allowed in since it's a docking area, but that aside the docking bay is publci space - the episode notes that maintenance personnel were in there all the time to do repairs. They're not allowed to scan it or get too close, so there's no secrets they can glean from it. If anybody did anything objectionable, the ship is perfectly capable of handling itself so Kosh has no reason to object. As far as ambassadorial protocol, the other ambassadorial ships are presumably maintained by station personnel when not in service. That's assuming they have them - I believe the only ambassadors we've seen to have their own ships permanently stationed there are Delenn and maybe G'kar. Londo travels back and forth by public transport as far as I can tell.

*Ship zap ray- So Kosh's ship, um, zaps people that get too close. Well, a security system does make sense...but is the idea that the ship kills people that get too close?

Yes. The Vorlons have sufficient clout that they don't care if a diplomatic incident is raised, and they value their secrecy a great deal. Kosh will have given instructions for how to act around the ship when he came aboard - any unfortunate shmuck who gets zapped ignoring those instructions is not his concern.

*Singing Ship-Ok, it's kind, um, cool, that the ship sings to people in their sleep. Though wonder why Earth did not assign some sleepers to listen to the ship 24/7?

It sang specifically to Dr Jacobs while he was inside it. It would not sing to random people sleeping near it, and the idea of a napping taskforce to try and wring information from a sentient ship is rather comical. I suppose they could send telepaths to try and read its mind, but doing so would be suicidal and possibly provoke retaliation from the Vorlons.

Basically, Earthforce ain't stupid.

*Kosh the Spy- Well, guess everything above might make sense...if it's all a plot by Kosh in the first place.

...you know what? I'm not even going to ASK.

*Super Doc Franklin? Er, so Doc Franklin gets a quick birthday message from Garibaldi, is confused for a moment and then is like ''play the message back frame by frame and pause it if something is found. So, how did he know to play it frame by frame?

Plot expedience. Franklin knows there's a hidden message there, and rather than spend 10 minutes going through all the stuff he tries to find out what the hidden message is we just jump right to it.

*Ghost Garibaldi-Sigh, so again Garibaldi walks around like ''no one will recognize him''...lol.

Normally I agree, but in this particular case Garibaldi brings up a good point. He himself isn't in Down Below that much so most people won't recognize him. Do you know what your local police chief looks like? I don't. I couldn't identify a single cop from my local precinct, and when I do notice cops around town it's because they're in uniform. Recognizing someone out of context is definitely a lot harder. The first time he pulled this it was silly because he was waltzing about in places he regularly frequents with an APB on him.

*Snack Food-So Doc Franklin and Garibaldi eat Nature Valley fruit bars?

I always thought they were Nutri-Grain bars myself - the wrapper matches. I tried looking at it on my computer screen that's way higher definition than was ever intended for the show, but I can't actually make out whether they're actually the brand name.

*The ships scan- Well, guess that super fancy Vorlon Technology can fake a scan...wow...amazing.

Um...it doesn't. The show is very explicit about this. They scan the ship, but are incapable of scanning inside it, in much the same way they're unable to break Minbari stealth technology. The lifeform they pick up is the ship itself.

*Organic Technology- Er so the ship is ''conscious and aware'', can fly itself, fake scans and sings. Some how this is all given as ''organic tech'', though it does not seem like anything a normal ship could do. How is it so different from just a ship having Artificial Intelligence? The idea of Organic Tech is cool, but the Vorlon's ship really does not fit the bill.

The ship is alive. Entirely sentient. It didn't randomly sing to JAcobs like a music box, it sang to him because it chose to as a thinking being. It liked Jacobs, so it sang to him to comfort him.

[Cikomyr]

I am sure there was an awkward conversation between Kosh and his ship

Ship: i love it! I wanna keep it!
Kosh: you cant! You don't know the first thing of taking care a human
Ship: but i love it, and I will sing to it while it sleeps. I promise!
Kosh: no. Give it back.
Ship: pleaaaaaaaase?!

[factotum]

The ship is alive. Entirely sentient.

Going to spoiler this because it's a pretty major plot point later on:

Spoiler

Show

At the end of the episode where Kosh is killed by the Shadows ("Interludes and Examinations"), Delenn says this about his ship:

"Then once Kosh's belongings are loaded into his ship it will activate itself. The ship was made for him. It was a part of him. In a curious way it is alive. It cannot live without him, so it will grieve as we do, in its own way, and perform its last duty in memory of Kosh."

[Darth Ultron]

...you know what? I'm not even going to ASK.

Well, Everything Kosh and the Vorlon's do can be seen as part of a meta plot as manipulation of the galaxy is what they do.

Normally I agree, but in this particular case Garibaldi brings up a good point. He himself isn't in Down Below that much so most people won't recognize him. Do you know what your local police chief looks like? I don't. I couldn't identify a single cop from my local precinct, and when I do notice cops around town it's because they're in uniform. Recognizing someone out of context is definitely a lot harder. The first time he pulled this it was silly because he was waltzing about in places he regularly frequents with an APB on him.

Well, sure if your a law abiding citizen in the 21st century that is more concerned about Facebook posts then your local government, then sure ''some'' people have no idea who their chief of police, or mayor, or Congressperson or president is.

Now, if your a criminal or even just a ''um sort of shady, um sort of criminal'' then you know most, if not all, of the local cops. After all they bump into you, harasses you and arrests you all the time. And it's even worse in an ''enclosed spot'' where they will ''arrest the Usual Suspects'' again and again and again.

And it's not like Garibaldi is a ''normal chief of police''. He does not come to work at like 10 am, spend a hour deciding on what color the paper plates should be in the break room, go to lunch for three and a half hours, maybe write one memo about ''no American flags can be pined to a cop uniform''. Then after that hard day of work, heads home at like 3 pm. Garibaldi is not that type of ''senior desk cop'', he is a lowly, lowly, lowly beat cop and he spends all of his time personally arresting people. The most iconic image of Mr. Garibaldi is him standing next to Londo with Londo saying ''Mr. Garibaldi !''. Know what number two is? Garibaldi arresting someone. Go back and look at all the episodes, you see him do it all the time, all most once and episode.

Also in a small place like B5, you don't get too many ''copies'' of things. This leads to ''everyone knowing everyone'' pretty quick. It's bad enough that like B5 has maybe ''ten bars'', so if you go to a bar you have a 1/10 chance of seeing anyone else that went to a bar. But more so there are only one of more specialized activities.

I always thought they were Nutri-Grain bars myself - the wrapper matches. I tried looking at it on my computer screen that's way higher definition than was ever intended for the show, but I can't actually make out whether they're actually the brand name.

It's a bit blurry...but it does kind of look like the ''half circle Nature Valley sun coming up over a farm'' logo.

Um...it doesn't. The show is very explicit about this. They scan the ship, but are incapable of scanning inside it, in much the same way they're unable to break Minbari stealth technology. The lifeform they pick up is the ship itself.

It is? Except that does not fit? Then everyone would say ''officially the ship is alive'', and not dance around the ''wow, organic tech maybe''. And don't ''the sensors'' detect ''a life form'' inside the ship? Or are the poor sensors just all confused.

And if it is ''official'' that you ''can't scan inside a Vorlon ship ever'', would not Cranst know this? Then it should have been a bit more like: Computer: Scanning...unable to scan interior of ship, unknown error." Or something like that.

The ship is alive. Entirely sentient. It didn't randomly sing to JAcobs like a music box, it sang to him because it chose to as a thinking being. It liked Jacobs, so it sang to him to comfort him.

If you say so? The episode sure does not...

[tomandtish]

Well, sure if your a law abiding citizen in the 21st century that is more concerned about Facebook posts then your local government, then sure ''some'' people have no idea who their chief of police, or mayor, or Congressperson or president is.

Now, if your a criminal or even just a ''um sort of shady, um sort of criminal'' then you know most, if not all, of the local cops. After all they bump into you, harasses you and arrests you all the time. And it's even worse in an ''enclosed spot'' where they will ''arrest the Usual Suspects'' again and again and again.

And it's not like Garibaldi is a ''normal chief of police''. He does not come to work at like 10 am, spend a hour deciding on what color the paper plates should be in the break room, go to lunch for three and a half hours, maybe write one memo about ''no American flags can be pined to a cop uniform''. Then after that hard day of work, heads home at like 3 pm. Garibaldi is not that type of ''senior desk cop'', he is a lowly, lowly, lowly beat cop and he spends all of his time personally arresting people. The most iconic image of Mr. Garibaldi is him standing next to Londo with Londo saying ''Mr. Garibaldi !''. Know what number two is? Garibaldi arresting someone. Go back and look at all the episodes, you see him do it all the time, all most once and episode.

Also in a small place like B5, you don't get too many ''copies'' of things. This leads to ''everyone knowing everyone'' pretty quick. It's bad enough that like B5 has maybe ''ten bars'', so if you go to a bar you have a 1/10 chance of seeing anyone else that went to a bar. But more so there are only one of more specialized activities. .

Except B5 ISN'T a small place. If it was a US city, it would rank 82 (between Buffalo, NY and Madison, WI). And like the Police Chief in most places, Garibaldi is appointed, not elected, so there's not the big publicity push attached to it that there is with elected positions.

Heck, for all we know since the position is in the military chain of command and not a civilian one, there might not be any requirement for a announcement. Sheridan appointed Zack head of security pretty much on the spot, with no indication that a formal announcement went out station wide. So there are certainly some people who know him on sight, but with a quarter million people residing on the station, a majority probably don't.

And Garibaldi isn't going for a "no one will recognize me ever disguise". He's going for a "no one who takes a quick glance is going to immediately recognize me". After all, knowledge goes both ways, and he knows who to avoid.

And back to the small place: Don't confuse budget constraints and small sets with small size. I'm sure B5 has more than 10 bars (heck, most major US airports have more than 10 bars). But there's never a need to show them and there's always going to be money to consider.

[Darth Ultron]

There All the Honor Lies

Sheridan is framed for the murder of a Minbari.

Great Line-"This isn't some deep space franchise, this station is about something!", sure it's just words now. But back in the '90's when B5 was ''competing'' with Star Trek:Deep Space Nine, it sure was a fun line.

Look Who it is- Attorney Guinevere Corey is played by Julie Caitlin Brown and she played Na'Toth in the first season.

Things that Don't make Sense

*Forgetfullness-Delenn wonders ''why'' a Minbari might want to kill Sheridan. As if some Minbari needs some type of reason to attack and kill ''Sheridan Starkiller''.

*Dumb Luck-Sure is lucky Sheridan ran after the guy who stole his link. Sure I guess Sheridan might be that ''kind of guy''

*Dumb Luck 2-Well, guess it was also lucky Sheridan went all murderhobo vs the Minbari. Um, sure, it was, um, sort of life and death as the Minbari did, um, knock Sheridan down.

*Blue Sector Weirdness-So how did link thief, death first sacrificial lamb and convenient witness all get into Blue Sector? Is not Blue Sector access restricted so people, and specifically aliens can just wander around there?

Da'eh Fir'rst- loosely translated means ''I yield to your authority'', and just sort of sounds like ''Death First''. Ok, this is just flat out bad writing. To say ''something'' that sounds like a ''threat/something bad'' in English just so happens to mean surrender/give up in the other language is just beyond dumb and stupid times a thousand. Sure the writer is making up the language, but for some words to sound so perfectly close AND have other meanings is just crazy. AND this is the ''official language'' not some ''translation mistake. So when any Minbari in charge tells another to step down, they say ''Death First'' (lol).

*Death to Liars? So Minbari kill any aliens that say or imply they are lying?

*Vorlon Downbelow- So, did Kosh just bump into a ugly, poor group of Gorgairan Chanters as he, um, wandered around the station.....or did he create the whole thing and idea from scratch?

*Anachronism-So, for maybe in the only time in the whole series one of the stations '90's video monitors displays Minbari text on the screen and does not ''translate'' it into English.

Final-C, Accidental Murder plots are dumb. And it's bad that ''everyone acts like it's the end of the world'' during the whole show...but at the end it's like ''blink, it never happened''. I find the plot to frame Sheridan also somewhat dubious. I can understand some of the Minbari wanting to remove Sheridan from command of B5. But why do it in such an indirect manner? So why don't they just kill Sheridan? The side plots and use of continuity are terrific. The "A" plot is not.

[Rodin]

*Blue Sector Weirdness-So how did link thief, death first sacrificial lamb and convenient witness all get into Blue Sector? Is not Blue Sector access restricted so people, and specifically aliens can just wander around there?

Only some parts of Blue Sector are restricted, the area is quite large. For example, it contains Immigration and the passenger lounges, as well as the Docking areas which we see are full of private contractors. It also has the observation room where we see various characters looking out at the stars.

[Daimbert]

Things that Don't make Sense

*Forgetfullness-Delenn wonders ''why'' a Minbari might want to kill Sheridan. As if some Minbari needs some type of reason to attack and kill ''Sheridan Starkiller''.

But they generally don't just go around trying to kill him just because of that. They, in general, hate him, but aren't trying to kill him over that. So unless that specific Minbari had a personal reason to kill "Starkiller", it's still a good question.

*Dumb Luck-Sure is lucky Sheridan ran after the guy who stole his link. Sure I guess Sheridan might be that ''kind of guy''

Yes, that's the kind of guy he is. This is consistent throughout the series. This is also one of the reasons why I HATE Sheridan, although taking direct action is also a trait Sinclair had.

*Dumb Luck 2-Well, guess it was also lucky Sheridan went all murderhobo vs the Minbari. Um, sure, it was, um, sort of life and death as the Minbari did, um, knock Sheridan down.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but attacking Sheridan and then, when asked to surrender, saying "Death First!" while having a weapon (I think I'm recalling that right) would indeed count as a justification for shooting him.

Da'eh Fir'rst- loosely translated means ''I yield to your authority'', and just sort of sounds like ''Death First''. Ok, this is just flat out bad writing. To say ''something'' that sounds like a ''threat/something bad'' in English just so happens to mean surrender/give up in the other language is just beyond dumb and stupid times a thousand. Sure the writer is making up the language, but for some words to sound so perfectly close AND have other meanings is just crazy. AND this is the ''official language'' not some ''translation mistake. So when any Minbari in charge tells another to step down, they say ''Death First'' (lol).

No, it's NOT crazy to have two completely separated languages from species with similar vocal apparatuses -- meaning that they make the same sounds -- to have two words or phrases that sound a lot alike and mean completely different things. We would expect that and while I can't think of any specific examples there even might be ones on Earth between languages. If it's bad writing, it's because of the "How convenient ..." angle, where that phrase just HAPPENS to mean that. But I think that's thinking of it the wrong way around. Remember, the Minbari didn't actually say "I yield to your authority", and the words chosen weren't just random and off-the-cuff. The plot to frame Sheridan was thought out ahead of time, and so the method of framing was chosen BECAUSE of that similarity. Think about it. The Minbari could easily have said "Never!" instead of "Death First!" and gotten the same reaction from Sheridan, but saying "Death First" allowed the witness to say that the Minbari was really surrendering and not attacking based on that. And it doesn't seem like that Minbari phrasing is common either. So the words were chosen BECAUSE of that coincidence; if that hadn't been the case they would have chosen some other method to frame Sheridan here.

You can argue, though, that given how similar they sound it wouldn't count against Sheridan for misinterpreting them ... but then remember that the key is that Sheridan says that there was a weapon that they can't find and that the witness says wasn't there. Having the Minbari really be saying "I yield to your authority" supports the idea that there was no weapon and Sheridan is either lying or was mistaken.

*Vorlon Downbelow- So, did Kosh just bump into a ugly, poor group of Gorgairan Chanters as he, um, wandered around the station.....or did he create the whole thing and idea from scratch?

Neither. Kosh has knowledge and abilities that would let him know about and find them, and he, like Delenn, knew that Sheridan would require training for his future role. So he sought them out.

I find the plot to frame Sheridan also somewhat dubious. I can understand some of the Minbari wanting to remove Sheridan from command of B5. But why do it in such an indirect manner? So why don't they just kill Sheridan?

A Minbari simply killing the commander of the station and the head of the council creates a diplomatic incident that makes the Minbari look bad. This would also mean that they won't get to have much of a say in who is selected to replace him, which is what they had in the original agreement and what they were upset about when Sheridan was selected without their approval. If Sheridan is removed because he attacked THEM, on the other hand, Earth is the one who looks like they are in the wrong, the Minbari can demand concessions as the "aggrieved party", and Earth is definitely going to have to be more willing to honour their agreement when the one time they ignore it that commander shoots one of them, arguably because he hates the Minbari so much.

It's also a characteristic of the Minbari. The threat of violence is always there, but they tend to want to act more subtly so that they can deny that. The war against Earth and their Civil War are two prime examples when the facade crumbles and we see that part of them.

[Darth Ultron]

But they generally don't just go around trying to kill him just because of that. They, in general, hate him, but aren't trying to kill him over that. So unless that specific Minbari had a personal reason to kill "Starkiller", it's still a good question.

Really? We have seen plenty of Minbari that want to ''kill the Starkiller'', and plenty that have ''personal reasons'' (you know, like the evil Minbari in this episode).

No, it's NOT crazy to have two completely separated languages from species with similar vocal apparatuses -- meaning that they make the same sounds -- to have two words or phrases that sound a lot alike and mean completely different things. We would expect that and while I can't think of any specific examples there even might be ones on Earth between languages. If it's bad writing, it's because of the "How convenient ..." angle, where that phrase just HAPPENS to mean that. But I think that's thinking of it the wrong way around. Remember, the Minbari didn't actually say "I yield to your authority", and the words chosen weren't just random and off-the-cuff. The plot to frame Sheridan was thought out ahead of time, and so the method of framing was chosen BECAUSE of that similarity. Think about it. The Minbari could easily have said "Never!" instead of "Death First!" and gotten the same reaction from Sheridan, but saying "Death First" allowed the witness to say that the Minbari was really surrendering and not attacking based on that. And it doesn't seem like that Minbari phrasing is common either. So the words were chosen BECAUSE of that coincidence; if that hadn't been the case they would have chosen some other method to frame Sheridan here.

To have a two languages have two very, very, very specific opposites is just about impossible. Like every time some one says ''D'ath to'Alls'' they are saying in their language ''I surrender to you". Yes, words and sounds can be similar....but the meanings is just beyond crazy. So sure, in Minbari ''Darth Frsst'' could be ''I will wash your dishes'', but, oh, that would not work for the plot.

It's also a characteristic of the Minbari. The threat of violence is always there, but they tend to want to act more subtly so that they can deny that. The war against Earth and their Civil War are two prime examples when the facade crumbles and we see that part of them.

We also see it in Leenear.....all the time

[Daimbert]

Really? We have seen plenty of Minbari that want to ''kill the Starkiller'', and plenty that have ''personal reasons'' (you know, like the evil Minbari in this episode).

They'd like to see him dead, but they don't normally try to kill him. Thus, the question of who would have an actual, credible motive for trying to kill Sheridan, since "Starkiller" doesn't work as a normal motivation.

You're also conflating "He's Starkiller!" and "personal reasons". Besides, the motives of the clan weren't personal, but were political: Sheridan was appointed without Minbari approval and was at least believed to be much more hostile towards the Minbari than Sinclair was. Which we saw when Sheridan came aboard with the Trigati and was explained in the episode ... and as I pointed out in my comment.

To have a two languages have two very, very, very specific opposites is just about impossible.

Actually, given a sufficient number of languages with sufficiently large vocabularies, it's pretty much GUARANTEED to happen (like the fact that in a shockingly small number of people you are guaranteed to have two people with the same birthday). Now, it being for specifically "attack/surrender" is more improbable, but as I said if that particular coincidence wasn't the case they would have simply done something else, which is pretty much made clear in the episode given that Lavell's entire role was staged.

[factotum]

Actually, given a sufficient number of languages with sufficiently large vocabularies, it's pretty much GUARANTEED to happen (like the fact that in a shockingly small number of people you are guaranteed to have two people with the same birthday).

Point of order: the only way to *guarantee* two people share a birthday is to have a group of 367 of them (yes, I'm including leap years here). You only need 23 to have a better than 50/50 chance that two of them will share a birthday, though, which I assume is the point you were going for.

And there are real-world examples of languages where pretty much the same word means something completely different. For example, in English a "barn" is a large building for storing hay and other farming produce, whereas in Swedish the same word, with the same spelling, and pronounced pretty much the same way means "child".

[Daimbert]

Point of order: the only way to *guarantee* two people share a birthday is to have a group of 367 of them (yes, I'm including leap years here). You only need 23 to have a better than 50/50 chance that two of them will share a birthday, though, which I assume is the point you were going for.

Point taken. Yeah, what I was going for was that with a surprisingly small number you end up, statistically speaking, expecting it to happen rather than being surprised that it happened.

[Rodin]

Point of order: the only way to *guarantee* two people share a birthday is to have a group of 367 of them (yes, I'm including leap years here). You only need 23 to have a better than 50/50 chance that two of them will share a birthday, though, which I assume is the point you were going for.

And there are real-world examples of languages where pretty much the same word means something completely different. For example, in English a "barn" is a large building for storing hay and other farming produce, whereas in Swedish the same word, with the same spelling, and pronounced pretty much the same way means "child".

The problem here is likelihood.

Having one word mean two different things in different human languages - not uncommon.

Having one word mean two different things between alien species - really unlikely, but it can happen if the evolution is close enough that the species are making similar sounds. For an example of what I mean, I seriously doubt there's a human word that sounds like anything the Gaim say. Unless possibly a sneeze gets mistaken for a deadly insult.

Having one word mean its antonym in two different languages separated by species - Really, really freaking unlikely.

Having said antonym be something as specific as "I yield" and "Kill me", instead of something about making marmalade on horseback - Astronomically unlikely.

-----

It was a stupid premise, and one that could easily have been avoided by having the witness just lie about what was said. He's already lying, so what's one more?

[Daimbert]

The problem here is likelihood.

Having one word mean two different things in different human languages - not uncommon.

Having one word mean two different things between alien species - really unlikely, but it can happen if the evolution is close enough that the species are making similar sounds. For an example of what I mean, I seriously doubt there's a human word that sounds like anything the Gaim say. Unless possibly a sneeze gets mistaken for a deadly insult.

Having one word mean its antonym in two different languages separated by species - Really, really freaking unlikely.

Having said antonym be something as specific as "I yield" and "Kill me", instead of something about making marmalade on horseback - Astronomically unlikely.

The Minbari, Centauri, humans, and Narn, at least, use very similar phonetics, with seemingly relatively similar grammars. There are a very large number of ways to combine phonetics, but unless you get into composition -- making words and phrases longer -- that number isn't infinite. Given that there are biological and cultural reasons for combining sounds in certain ways, the languages will be quite different ... but those languages also have very large vocabularies. Given that there are other species that use similar phonetics, there is almost certainly going to be a large number of instances where a word in one language uses the same phonetics as a different word in another one, with different meanings (it'd be more improbable if they had the SAME meaning). And then at some point you'll get a antonym when comparing ALL species' languages to each other.

Yes, that it's this word/phrase is convenient. But as I said, if that convenience wasn't there, they'd have used something else.

It was a stupid premise, and one that could easily have been avoided by having the witness just lie about what was said. He's already lying, so what's one more?

But then he'd have to be accusing Sheridan of lying, as opposed to claiming that Sheridan was mistaken in what he heard. That raises problems that they didn't need, and made the testimony more dubious. Earth, for example, would be less likely to accept that the Presidentially Appointed commander to Babylon 5 shot a Minbari and lied about it than that he shot one due to a misunderstanding, even in the interests of diplomacy.

EDIT: Admittedly, to make it work better they probably should have lampshaded it even a little. I would have had it be questioned as being, for example, seemingly a bit archaic and/or formal indicating that the phrase is not commonly used, but that the interpretation of the witness is valid and that a Minbari is more likely to be able to parse archaic Minbari than a human is, and so the only ones who can challenge that reasonably would be other Minbari.

[huttj509]

The problem here is likelihood.

Having one word mean two different things in different human languages - not uncommon.

Having one word mean two different things between alien species - really unlikely, but it can happen if the evolution is close enough that the species are making similar sounds. For an example of what I mean, I seriously doubt there's a human word that sounds like anything the Gaim say. Unless possibly a sneeze gets mistaken for a deadly insult.

Having one word mean its antonym in two different languages separated by species - Really, really freaking unlikely.

Having said antonym be something as specific as "I yield" and "Kill me", instead of something about making marmalade on horseback - Astronomically unlikely.

-----

It was a stupid premise, and one that could easily have been avoided by having the witness just lie about what was said. He's already lying, so what's one more?

I nod in disagreement. With a thumbs up to add an insulting gesture.

Beware Germans bearing gift, you might want to keep antidote handy.

And a Frenchman might use a nutcracker to break a coque.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• And Now For a Word
• In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum
• Knives

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

And Now For a Word: They use this documentary-style approach in a later episode with rather different results--the one here is a rather fair and balanced look at how things are going. Delenn being too upset to continue the interview when reminded how many humans died during the war is interesting, given what we later learn about her direct responsibility for it all kicking off. Also, did they mention that the Centauri are transporting illegal mass driver weapons? That's going to be very significant later on!

In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum: Morden gets imprisoned and Sheridan is determined to find out what happened to his wife. One assumes this would have happened somewhat later in the series if we'd still been looking at Catherine Sakai disappearing after marrying Sinclair? I like how Sheridan thinks about Coventry getting heavily bombed during WW2 because we didn't dare to let the Germans know we'd decoded their transmissions and thus knew they were coming--don't know the actual historical accuracy of that, but it's nice when "ancient history" gets brought up in a programme like this,

Oh, and of course it has Vir's crowning moment of awesome: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Knives: I believe this was originally supposed to be shown *before* the prior episode, which explains why Sheridan gets a flashback about what happened to his wife on the Icarus here--that was supposed to set up what happens in "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum". As for the main plot of the episode, Urza intentionally losing the fight to Londo so his family would be saved follows on from a theme of self-sacrifice that shows up in a lot of B5 episodes--we see it when Hiroshi rams the Churchill into an enemy ship, when Sheridan attempts to ram the final defence platform, when the Victory rams the Shadow planet-killer in "A Call to Arms", when Marcus is willing to die to protect Delenn, etc. In fact, I almost think that people in B5 are rather too ready to commit suicide to further their aims, I'm not sure what that says about JMS!

[Rakaydos]

Having said antonym be something as specific as "I yield" and "Kill me", instead of something about making marmalade on horseback - Astronomically unlikely.

They (mimbari) probably had linguists working for weeks to provide something close enough to be believable.

Just on the English side of the "translation error", you had options ranging from "Do It" "Never" anything with the english "death" word, anything similar to "Never surrender", and so on.

The mimbari side would be just as complicated.

[Darth Ultron]

And Now For a Word

An ISN (Interstellar Network News) reporter spends 36 hours on B5.



*Anachronism-ISN reporter Cynthia Torqueman. Well, she is sure a mid 90's female reporter. A bit more ''Barbara Walters'' or ''Christiane Amanpour''. We are still a couple years from the Information Babe Wars of news in more modern times...where suddenly tons of super attractive, mostly blonde, young women showed up on the news in cute outfits and short skirts.

*Anachronism 2- ISN has a cute little toss up a couple words of text on the screen. Again, alot like the 90's news. And nothing like the monster clutter and news crawl we get with modern news. Sure would be fun to do this show today, add a crawl, and put all sorts of news in it....lol.

If the ISN 36 Hours was made today (in 2017) I'd bet Cynthia Torqueman would be a bit more ''Megan Kelly'' or ''Courtney Friel''. So it might be B5 with Special Guest Star Kate Upton as Cynthia Torqueman.

*Armed Transports?- Well I guess with the Narn and Centari ''At War'',they would arm all their transports....but you'd think arming a civilian transport in neutral space would be a big no-no.

*Senator Quantrell-Well, guess he is a typical non military politician.

*Don't Blink- The Centari transport had weapons, including mass drivers.

Psi Commercial- Well, guess they will still have cheesy commercials in the future....lol. Dark, evil, subliminal cheesy commercials (watch the end of the Psi Add frame by frame.....)


Things that Don't make Sense

*Dr. Franklin's Specialty- So this episode lists Doc Franklin's specialty as exobiology. So he would not be in charge of human health, right?

*Dr. Franklin's Story- Is just s bit graphic for the news. Sure ''90's'' news was slightly more, well, real then say 2017 news, but still it is a bit much.

*Deleen's Change- And again, Cynthia Torqueman question about war victims and Delenn is a bit personal and graphic.

*G'Kar's Story- Well, again for the third time, we get a bit too graphic for TV story.

*American News-Well, the graphic news thing really, really, really is an American thing. American news very often does not show or suggest anything graphic, and even when they have real, raw recordings of anything they will refuse to show it. But that is just American News. A LOT of other news worldwide has no problem showing the most real and graphic things.

It does kind of show the America vs the world idea you'd get in a one world type future. You'd have one country, America, saying ''oh no we can't show that '' and then you'd have like 50 other countries saying ''splat, here is it look away''. It does make sense that the ''rest of the worldview'' does win over the ''single American view''.

*No one blinks- So when G'Kar suggests some of the Centari transports might have mass drivers, weapons so horrible they are outlawed galaxy wide, no one so much as blinks.

*Woosh- The Starfury sure makes a loud ''Woosh'' as it buzzes C and C....in space where there is no air to make sound. But, then we really should hear no sounds from any space battle or anything else in space...but that makes for boring TV.

*Space Cam-So, sure, ISN plugs into the Securcam's on B5. But how do they plug into the starfuries dash cams? Or was had footage recorded and edited in later?


Final-C, This episode also does a lot in escalating the Narn-Centauri war. Since this episode didn't have that depth, it really did just feel like a news story. In fact, it's amazing how the politics and posturing, especially by Londo and G'Kar, could have come straight out of the present day - and I thought that 10 years ago when I first saw the episode, as well as today. This episode is a good setup for a similar episode that will take place in the fourth season. Here, the ISN reporter is relatively objective about B5, but in the fourth season we will see that that objectivity is completely absent.

[factotum]

*Dr. Franklin's Specialty- So this episode lists Doc Franklin's specialty as exobiology. So he would not be in charge of human health, right?

Being a specialist in something doesn't mean you've forgotten everything else about your medical training. That aside, Franklin is the chief medical officer on B5--he's not specifically "in charge of human health", he's in charge of the health of everyone on the station, human and alien both.

[huttj509]

Being a specialist in something doesn't mean you've forgotten everything else about your medical training. That aside, Franklin is the chief medical officer on B5--he's not specifically "in charge of human health", he's in charge of the health of everyone on the station, human and alien both.

Indeed. Especially with easy access to human databases "good enough" at human physiology is, well, good enough. The various non-human population? You probably want someone who exceeds expectations in that field.

[tomandtish]

Being a specialist in something doesn't mean you've forgotten everything else about your medical training. That aside, Franklin is the chief medical officer on B5--he's not specifically "in charge of human health", he's in charge of the health of everyone on the station, human and alien both.

Exactly. It makes him perfect for B5 since he can provide/oversee treatment for everyone.

It even becomes a plot point when he starts making mistakes because of his addiction issues, nearly killing a patient (who happens to be alien).

*American News-Well, the graphic news thing really, really, really is an American thing. American news very often does not show or suggest anything graphic, and even when they have real, raw recordings of anything they will refuse to show it. But that is just American News. A LOT of other news worldwide has no problem showing the most real and graphic things.

And is the point. This isn't American news. It's ISN, the Interstellar News Network. While everyone speaks English (for obvious reasons), the network is not an American news network. No reason to assume it is the same. So not sure why this wouldn't make sense. It's just different.

And our news will tell some fairly graphic things IF they feel they are news worthy. What they usually won't do is show them.

*No one blinks- So when G'Kar suggests some of the Centari transports might have mass drivers, weapons so horrible they are outlawed galaxy wide, no one so much as blinks.

Uhh, you can see the Alien races looking back and forth more energetically as G'Kar builds up to his point, and can hear their voices start shouting as he finishes (the camera is pulling away so we can't really see if anyone blinks). Also remember that the allegation itself is';t out of the blue. G'Kar's been shouting this since the attack (and it's implied he's been saying it longer). What's new is the confirmation that it's happening (that G'Kar is right). But they definitely react.

And Sheridan already knows (and presumably told DeLenn). That's what the "Garibaldi, we have a problem" line that Garibaldi gets over his Com from Ivanova means. They found the evidence.

*Space Cam-So, sure, ISN plugs into the Securcam's on B5. But how do they plug into the starfuries dash cams? Or was had footage recorded and edited in later?

Either that or the Starfury Cams (and the Maintenance Bot later on) send their signal to CnC and they were tapped in there.

[Darth Ultron]

In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum

In this pivotal episode, Sheridan finally finds out what really happened to his wife, and in the process sets his path for the rest of the series.

Crowning Moment of Awesome Foreshawowing- Vir's ''what do I want''

Doc Franklin's arc of overwork starts here, with Ivonava playing ''mom''.

The Foundationist Religion- An interesting new religion

We hear ''"If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die." for the first time....but by sure not the last.

The Nightwatch- The start of another dark arc

Delenn and Kosh- Well, we know they have know each other for like 11 years, but this is the first time they have been shown together on the station buddy buddy.

The Conventry Bombing is a ''conspiracy theory''......but then Sheridan IS a conspiracy fan who collects conspiracies.....

Things that Don't make Sense

*TV Actions- So, oddly, Sheridin gets up in the morning...grabs the box of Anna's things...goes to work on duty and then sorts through the stuff. Kind of odd....you'd think he do this when he was off duty, alone, in his quarters. But of course on TV all characters must do things ''way out in the open'' so other characters can stumble in and make a plot....exactly like Garibaldi does.

*Morden's Not Noticed- So Morden acts like a normal guy with a normal ideni-card and living a normal life as a ''trader''. And this uses computers a lot...computers that notice things like ''name'', ''account numbers'', and notes of ''missing in space and presumed dead''. But no one ever noticed? No LIfeLock Alert for identity theft went off?

I guess this could be an Anachronism as back in the '90's most people did not have much computer or online presence...and there was not yet quite a thing as Identity Theft. But by 2017, well the whole ''we would not notice unless he committed a crime thing'' would not work.

*Waking up the Shadows- So this episode is mostly clear on ''the Icraus woke up the Shadows'', except other shows seem to say they were awake before that.

*We never see any B5 folks even try to ''detect shadows'' ever again....


Final-A, This episode is one of the most pivotal for this season and the entire season, and it's extremely compelling on its own merits. This is an episode where every scene is important, and every major beat is exploited to its maximum potential. Even on first viewing, not knowing what was later to come, you could feel the momentum of the entire series shift with this episode.

[Rodin]

The Coventry bombing is a pretty interesting conspiracy theory in that it's so pervasive it's considered "fact". Even the historians don't seem to be 100% certain, although the consensus is that's it's pretty unlikely.

I think I've also heard a similar one for Pearl Harbor - that FDR knew the attack was coming but deliberately let it happen to force America to enter the war.

It's a compelling story that hits at the heart of our feelings - to do what's right and save a few, or do the morally dubious action that will save millions. And the question always is - what would you do?

I find these conspiracy theories much more interesting than stuff like the moon landings being faked. Looking at them tells you something about yourself, instead of just imagining a shadowy conspiracy out to do evil.

On Waking the Shadows, I'm pretty sure that's just unreliable narrator stuff. For all the Vorlons know (or at least, have told Delenn), the Icarus did wake the Shadows. Nobody knew about them before that. We get the full story from the Shadows themselves later, although that story itself is unreliable since the Shadows themselves are coloring the story to make themselves look benevolent.

[factotum]

On Waking the Shadows, I'm pretty sure that's just unreliable narrator stuff. For all the Vorlons know (or at least, have told Delenn), the Icarus did wake the Shadows. Nobody knew about them before that.

Again, though, we have to remember how this plotline was originally supposed to pan out--e.g. Catherine Sakai would be married to Sinclair and would then disappear at Z'Ha'Dum, but we know Shadow ships were appearing in the first season while Catherine was still around. I suppose it would be possible that she'd be sent in by the company she works for to find out what happened to the Icarus, and would then disappear in turn, but that would seem an odd development.

It would be really, really cool if JMS would release his original plan for B5 so we could see how it differed from the broadcast show, but doubt that will ever happen now.

[Darth Ultron]

On Waking the Shadows, I'm pretty sure that's just unreliable narrator stuff. For all the Vorlons know (or at least, have told Delenn), the Icarus did wake the Shadows. Nobody knew about them before that. We get the full story from the Shadows themselves later, although that story itself is unreliable since the Shadows themselves are coloring the story to make themselves look benevolent.

A lot, all most all, of what we know in the B5 universe comes from just people talking...and people can be wrong. And when people say things like ''100 years ago'' they often don't mean 100 years exactly.

I all ways kind of take the middle ground of saying there were Shadows awake the whole time. So it's not like the whole race went to sleep, but more like 99% of them. So there were like a couple, say maybe a hundred or so, that stayed awake.

So the Icarus did wake up the main bulk of the Shadows. Like maybe that was the Shadow Plan: the bulk of the race stayed asleep until a race woke them up, and they took that as the signal to start The Great War.

[Cikomyr]

I still think Sheridan should have known that Zahadum was both Anna's death location and GKar's Mystery Evil World

[factotum]

I still think Sheridan should have known that Zahadum was both Anna's death location and GKar's Mystery Evil World

Why? What evidence did he have to make that link? There must be thousands of explored star systems in the time of B5, there would be no reason for him to suspect the two places were the same.

[Cikomyr]

Why? What evidence did he have to make that link? There must be thousands of explored star systems in the time of B5, there would be no reason for him to suspect the two places were the same.

He should have known the coordinate of the deathplace of his wife. He is a Hero Navy Captain with a knack for digging secrets.

And he knew by heart the coordinates of Zahadum that GKar told him, like when he mentionned it during the episode with the Immaterial Monster who ate organs

[Darth Ultron]

Knives

Londo reunites with an old friend, and Sheridan is possessed by an alien.

*Look who it is-Urza Jaddo is played by Carmen Argenziano, wwho has been in a lot of things, but might be best known for playing Jacob Carter/Selmack on Stargate SG-1.

*The last episode of the series not written by J. Michael Straczynski until Season 5....

*Sheridan has an EAS Agamemnon baseball hat

Things that Don't make Sense

*B5 has room for a baseball field/batting cage?

*Sector 14 Secret- So Earthforce ''confiscated all the files'' about when B4 reappeared? So did ''disappear'' all the B4 crew too?

*A Centauri Coutari, looks a little like a gladius.

*Duel to the Death- So guess they are allowed on the station?

*Save my family- Well the rule of if you kill a guy you save and protect their family sure is convenient.

Final-B- The episode is impressive with how much it foreshadows future episodes while still telling an absorbing story of its own. The plot involving Sheridan's "possession" was pretty much a waste.