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  1. - Top - End - #481

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    It's always bothered me more that a city-sized space station like B5 has exactly one commercial telepath. That has to be hell on the scheduling. I guess the alien races have their own TPs aboard?

    Come to think of it, do we ever see telepaths of races other than the Humans, Minbari, and Centauri?
    The show tries to make telepaths 'rare' and 'common' at the same time. To have a ''group'' or ''core'' of telepaths, there must be at least a couple hundred. And how many jobs are there for a telepath anyway? We kinda only know two: Psi Cop and commercial telepath. So what other jobs are there?

    You'd think like New York might have like 100 commercial telepaths?

    Well, once the shadow war starts we ''sort of'' see telepaths of every race, but they are not featured.

  2. - Top - End - #482
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    A couple of hundred telepaths in a population that must be well into the tens of billions is pretty darned rare, all told. I don't think there's anything in the show that points to telepaths being commonplace?

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    A couple of hundred telepaths in a population that must be well into the tens of billions is pretty darned rare, all told. I don't think there's anything in the show that points to telepaths being commonplace?
    Actually, telepaths are supposed to be 1 in 1000, with telekinetics making up 1 in every 10,000 telepaths.

    So if we took a population of 10 billion, that's 10 million telepaths, and 1000 TKS.

    We know that a large percentage of TKs (50%) go insane, so low numbers there aren't surprising,

    But in theory, there are a lot of telepaths. What we don't get good numbers on are the percentages/ratios at each strength level. It's possible that the majority are P1 and p2, which makes them useless for anything but detecting and blocking scans. We could be looking at a scenario where for every 100 telepaths or so, only 6 rank P5 or higher.
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  4. - Top - End - #484
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    It's possible that the majority are P1 and p2, which makes them useless for anything but detecting and blocking scans. We could be looking at a scenario where for every 100 telepaths or so, only 6 rank P5 or higher.
    Question is, are latent telepaths like Ivanova included in that "1 in 1000" figure? And yes, it seems entirely probable that the number of telepaths at each power level decreases, or else there would be close to a million P12 telepaths knocking around the place!

  5. - Top - End - #485
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Question is, are latent telepaths like Ivanova included in that "1 in 1000" figure? And yes, it seems entirely probable that the number of telepaths at each power level decreases, or else there would be close to a million P12 telepaths knocking around the place!
    And if that wasn't the case, the Psi-Corps wouldn't be so obsessed about breeding programs to produce both more powerful telepaths than that and more P12s.
    BSG PBF record on BGG: 16 - 17.

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  6. - Top - End - #486

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    The Long, Twilight Struggle

    The Narn surrender to the Centauri after an attack on their homeworld, and Sheridan gains allies.

    *Anachronism-When Drall pop up, the Picture Tube TV screen in Sheridan's quarters fades to static. LOl...static! Remember static?

    *Set-up- Again, we get the question of how exactly did the Great Machine get built on Epsilon 3, the space kept 'neutral' and the Babylon Stations just happen to be built there. The show never answers the question, but it's a bit odd that all the things just ''randomly'' happen. Though it makes a lot more sense if we say the Vorlons set it all up.

    *The Conspiracy of Light- to bad we don't get to see more of this...

    *The Battle of Gorash- Is a great battle, and the sound score makes it even better. It's really a no brainier it was added to the title roll next season.

    *Foreshadowing (all most literary)- We see some Narn heavy cruisers combine their firepower and damage a Shadow Battle Crab....

    *Vorlon Protest- Wow, considering how aloft they are (in the open anyway) about everything, it's downright amazing that the Vorlon government condemns the use of the Mass Drivers on Narn...but it does also show you just how serious ''bombing a world back to the stone age is''.

    *Londo in the Window-This is one of the best visuals of in the show....and then you have all that emotion too.

    *G'kar's Burdens- Again, this is some great stuff. You can really see and feel his pain.

    *Darth Londo- Oh, to see Londo as loud and flamboyant as ever...but now so, so far on the dark side is such a great touch. Having the character go from such goofy things for most of the first two years to Ambassador of Evil is great.


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Hot Seat- So does Lord Refa sit on the Imperial Throne? Or is that some side seat room? Or is this just showing how powerful and arrogant Refa is?

    *Uncle G'Sten's video has Narm text and script, and B5 does to translate it for us (wink wink).

    *Energy Mines?- Well, they sure look more like a missile or torpedo. Guess they are made to drain energy from attacking ships?

    *Drinking buddies- Um, why are so many Narn and Centari drinking together..like three feet apart. The station is five miles long, you'd think they could find other bars.

    *Rangers- Well the group of ''Rangers'' in the meeting includes Minbari, women, some older folks and really a melting pot of people. But come the next season just about every single Ranger we see is a young human ninja type.



    Final-A, This episode has completely changed the political landscape of the series. It not only moves the arc forward by another great leap, it does so with moments that are absolutely breathtaking. The assault on the Narn Homeworld is one of the series' darkest moments yet. The image of Londo's face, reflected back at him through the window of the Centauri cruiser as he watches the bombs fall. The sight of G'Kar, desperately praying, intercut with the devastation the Shadows wreak upon the Narn fleet. The venemous glare on Londo's face in the Council Chamber, as he becomes more despicable than he has ever been. The dignity that suffuses G'Kar's bearing as he speaks in that same meeting. The words themselves... like most of G'Kar's speeches in the series, poetry, all the more powerful for being kept fairly brief.

  7. - Top - End - #487
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    Default Comes the Inquisitor, The Fall of Night

    This week, we'll be discussing:
    • Comes the Inquisitor
    • The Fall of Night


    This is also a good time to discuss Season 2 as a whole.

    I'm also about to edit the first post to include the Season 3 viewing schedule. I'm going with "option 1" from last week, since the only person who expressed a preference preferred that one. (Another poster just said that they preferred to only have 1 or 2 episodes in the season wrap-up week, and both options had two episodes in the wrap-up week, so I didn't count that opinion as preferring one option over the other.)

    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Wow, end of season 2 already? Anyway, the episodes under discussion:

    Comes the Inquisitor: I can take or leave most of this episode, to be honest--seeing someone tortured isn't usually the way I choose to spend my day. However, the ending makes up for all the unpleasantness that goes before it.

    "Good luck to you in your holy cause, Captain Sheridan. May your choices have better results than mine - remembered not as a messenger. Remembered not as a reformer, not as a prophet, not as a hero, not even as Sebastian. Remembered only... as Jack."

    You do have to wonder how Wayne Alexander isn't a much better known actor. The guy was born and raised in California yet manages a perfect English accent here, and his character is so different from Lorien (who he also played) that you'd barely believe it was the same man.

    B-plot is G'Kar sending weapons back to the resistance groups on the Narn homeworld. Garibaldi finds out and basically says, "Look, you can't do that through here, it would compromise the neutrality of the station--but here's a place you *can* use, go wild!".

    The Fall of Night: We have the secret police (Nightwatch) being set up on B5 with the help of a couple of guys from Earthforce, who are also supposedly trying to heal the diplomatic rift caused by G'Kar being given sanctuary a couple of episodes ago. This is made rather difficult when a damaged Narn cruiser turns up and hides behind the planet. Naturally, the Centauri find out about this and send their own battleship to destroy the Narn vessel, and the end result is a massive battle between B5 forces and the Centauri ship, which loses--albeit not after blowing off one of those "prongs" that sticks out above the main station. (This is barely significant because, apart from a few workers working on re-attaching it in the first episode of season 3, it never comes up again--it also suggests the Centauri battleship was a really, really terrible shot!).

    So, the guys from Earth demand Sheridan apologise for destroying the battleship, but on the way there on the axial tram he realises there's a Centauri bomb on board so he stops the tram and jumps out. Kosh has to leave his encounter suit to rescue him, and appears to all present as some sort of angelic being from their world's history--apart from Londo, who sees nothing. So, looks like the Vorlons have been manipulating the younger species for quite a while!

    A note on physics here: Ivanova says the problem isn't that Sheridan is "falling" per se, but that he's slowly drifting toward the ground travelling at 60mph underneath him and will die when he hits it. That would be a perfect description of what would happen--in a vacuum. Since there's air in the station and it must be rotating along with it, Sheridan is going to be picked up by that and will be flung outwards until he hits the ground. The effect is the same, but Ivanova's explanation is simply wrong in the current context.

    Oh, and the Narn cruiser that escaped earlier? Keffer (the pilot the network forced JMS to add in this season) is escorting it when he spots a Shadow vessel. He follows the Shadow vessel and ejects a recording pod showing it in all its glory just before it blows him up. Again, I'm not sure why they do this, because I don't recall much happening differently in season 3 because of this recording--it's been a while since I watched that, though, so I may be proven wrong.

    Overall thoughts on season 2: Despite its fair share of filler episodes, and an arc following Talia Winters which goes precisely nowhere due to the actress not returning in season 3, this is where the real meat of the show begins. For most of season 1 you could easily believe B5 was a Star Trek style "monster of the week" show, but season 2 is where the arc begins in earnest. I do wonder how many people didn't make it past the first season because they didn't realise how good it was going to get?

  9. - Top - End - #489
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post

    Oh, and the Narn cruiser that escaped earlier? Keffer (the pilot the network forced JMS to add in this season) is escorting it when he spots a Shadow vessel. He follows the Shadow vessel and ejects a recording pod showing it in all its glory just before it blows him up. Again, I'm not sure why they do this, because I don't recall much happening differently in season 3 because of this recording--it's been a while since I watched that, though, so I may be proven wrong.
    It's a key part of a number of little plot threads. It forces Sheridan and the others to start to move more quickly now that the Shadows are out in the open, and even Earth has to move to investigate and deal with this new threat, resulting in, at least, Endawe showing up on the station to get information that Earth can hopefully ignore. Arguably, it also lets the Shadows move more openly, which builds to Season 4.

    Overall thoughts on season 2: Despite its fair share of filler episodes, and an arc following Talia Winters which goes precisely nowhere due to the actress not returning in season 3, this is where the real meat of the show begins. For most of season 1 you could easily believe B5 was a Star Trek style "monster of the week" show, but season 2 is where the arc begins in earnest. I do wonder how many people didn't make it past the first season because they didn't realise how good it was going to get?
    I still always like Season 1 better, but a lot of that is because I strongly dislike Sheridan. I kinda end up on Garibaldi's side when he splits from the group in Season 4.
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  10. - Top - End - #490

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You do have to wonder how Wayne Alexander isn't a much better known actor. The guy was born and raised in California yet manages a perfect English accent here, and his character is so different from Lorien (who he also played) that you'd barely believe it was the same man.
    B5 has done this a couple times, where an actor plays ''a human character'' and also plays ''an alien character(s)''. So why does this happen, but only in this way? Why do we never see ''actor Bob'' play two different human characters? Do the creators think it will ''break the immersed realism '' of the show of ''Actor Bob'' is both ''human psi cop Anderson'' and ''Human security guard Jones''? And if that is true, why is it ok for alien characters? Do the show creators think the average fan just won't notice? Do the show creators think the alien make up hides the actor perfectly? Do the show creators think the fans don't read the credits? And in a lot of cases, you can't hide an actors distinctive voice: you know it's Tony Todd or W. Morgan Sherperd in like one word. And if they know the average fan will notice, why don't they do it for multiple human characters? Why is the ''rule'' you can only play one human character, but can be many alien ones?

  11. - Top - End - #491
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post

    The Fall of Night: We have the secret police (Nightwatch) being set up on B5 with the help of a couple of guys from Earthforce, who are also supposedly trying to heal the diplomatic rift caused by G'Kar being given sanctuary a couple of episodes ago. This is made rather difficult when a damaged Narn cruiser turns up and hides behind the planet. Naturally, the Centauri find out about this and send their own battleship to destroy the Narn vessel, and the end result is a massive battle between B5 forces and the Centauri ship, which loses--albeit not after blowing off one of those "prongs" that sticks out above the main station. (This is barely significant because, apart from a few workers working on re-attaching it in the first episode of season 3, it never comes up again--it also suggests the Centauri battleship was a really, really terrible shot!).
    Not so much obviously terrible shots. Remember, they are splitting fire between three groups: Zeta squadron, the Narn ship, and B5. With the upgrades they received earlier, B5 by itself is supposed to be a match for a warship (GROPOS). In a three on one fight, it actually says something about the Centauri that they lasted as long as it did (even if the Narn ship wasn't a significant participant). Note that they weren't hitting anything on B5 until the interceptors started "running hot" and losing efficiency. I assume overheating reduces the rate of fire.


    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh, and the Narn cruiser that escaped earlier? Keffer (the pilot the network forced JMS to add in this season) is escorting it when he spots a Shadow vessel. He follows the Shadow vessel and ejects a recording pod showing it in all its glory just before it blows him up. Again, I'm not sure why they do this, because I don't recall much happening differently in season 3 because of this recording--it's been a while since I watched that, though, so I may be proven wrong.
    The influence is more subtle. Remember, the video goes public on ISN and is then yanked down (subtle sign of the way things are going). G'Kar gets full confirmation that his ancient enemy has returned. Londo discovers that a dream he's had might be real. And we see the first obvious signs of the corruption in Earthgov with the reaction of the group. (Note that Endawe is not part of that group and appears to believe he was sent there legitimately).

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    B5 has done this a couple times, where an actor plays ''a human character'' and also plays ''an alien character(s)''. So why does this happen, but only in this way? Why do we never see ''actor Bob'' play two different human characters? Do the creators think it will ''break the immersed realism '' of the show of ''Actor Bob'' is both ''human psi cop Anderson'' and ''Human security guard Jones''? And if that is true, why is it ok for alien characters? Do the show creators think the average fan just won't notice? Do the show creators think the alien make up hides the actor perfectly? Do the show creators think the fans don't read the credits? And in a lot of cases, you can't hide an actors distinctive voice: you know it's Tony Todd or W. Morgan Sherperd in like one word. And if they know the average fan will notice, why don't they do it for multiple human characters? Why is the ''rule'' you can only play one human character, but can be many alien ones?
    Some have distinctive voices and some don't. But yes, it probably is due to breaking immersion. Maybe you get away with it once in a while, but if you use the same actors over and over in visually obvious ways, it gets in the way. By playing aliens, you can do a good job of suppressing that.

    Case in point: I'd never realized Wayne Alexander was both Sebastian and Lorien (as well as three other aliens. And that's a good thing. I want to see the character, not the actor, and am glad I didn't spend the whole time going "But Lorien is Jack the Ripper!".

    It's also not a universal that a show won't use the same people in different roles, although most of the reuse will be in small roles with little presence. Look at CSI for example, There were a fair number of actors who played different characters (Eddie Jemison for example). But none of those characters were majorly significant parts. B5 has the advantage: using them as aliens allows for a more significant part without breaking immersion.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Overall thoughts on season 2: Despite its fair share of filler episodes, and an arc following Talia Winters which goes precisely nowhere due to the actress not returning in season 3, this is where the real meat of the show begins. For most of season 1 you could easily believe B5 was a Star Trek style "monster of the week" show, but season 2 is where the arc begins in earnest. I do wonder how many people didn't make it past the first season because they didn't realise how good it was going to get?
    Yeah, can't argue that.
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  12. - Top - End - #492
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    I'm another that never realized Wayne Alexander did both Jack and Lorien.

    The Inquisitor episode has always been one of my favorites, mainly because Alexander absolutely kills as Jack. Genuinely terrifying, chewing holes in the scenery, and just generally being awesome. The philosophical demolition of the "Chosen One" trope is also fantastic, as his parting line about the real Chosen being the ones willing to sacrifice everything for their fellow man even if nobody knows they did it.

    It's also the first sign that the Vorlons may not be as angelic as they appear, done subtly enough that it can be passed off as "redeeming a villain".

    ------

    On Keffer - I actually find that he added quite a bit to the show. The early episodes where he's hanging out with the main characters is obviously forced and unnatural, but after that? He develops more naturally into a minor character of the same stature as Lou Welch, Zack Allen*, on Lieutenant Corwin. He provides a bit of a look into the Starfury pilots during the season, and his death is the first** to happen to a main cast member. In a roundabout way, the suits did enhance things - if only by making JMS get inventive.


    *Zack does become more prominent, but not until much later.
    **Technically speaking, it's possible Talia was dissected prior to this, but we don't learn of that until season 3.

  13. - Top - End - #493

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Comes the Inquisitor

    Kosh tests the purity of purpose of Delenn and Sheridan's devotion to their cause.

    *Vorlons-We learn in this episode that the Vorlons have been to Earth, far in the past, and that they abduct people. Even more interestingly is that they abduct evil killer types. Does make you wonder how long they have been doing this, and who else they have grabbed.

    *Jack-Sigh, well, I guess it's just a writer thing as most writers do this from time to time. They just 'have to' toss in a famous/infamous historical figure from time to time and give them their own personal spin and interpretation.

    *Vorlon Manipulation- This episode is another great example of Vorlon's setting up endless manipulations to get what they want or do what they want. Jack comes to B5 and makes a show of it. He picks a quiet place to do his test, but people know where it is. The door is left unlocked. Jack ''takes a walk'' just long enough for Lenear to run in and go ''oh no''. Then Jack walks back, slowly, tapping his staff loudly. Jack lets Lenear go and lets him run to Sheridan. And the door is still unlocked for Sheridan to get in. So....all a set up.

    *G'kar and Vir-Both get some great moments in this episode to change and grow, and they even have one together, no less.


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Secret Meeting-So Kosh and Delenn meet is just some random hallway somewhere in Red Sector?

    *The Minbari Inquisition- So both Delenn and Lenear sure seem to know all about the Vorlon Inquisition process. When and where did they learn all this? Think Deleen has done this before, like maybe right after she meet Kosh 11 years ago? Maybe other Minbari, like Rangers, have to do this test too? Or did Kosh give them a Vorlon Inquisition FAQ tablet or something?

    *Delenn Cabbagehead- It's always fun to watch a wise, deep, intelligent and spiritual person like Delenn gets asked a question like ''who are you?'' and then they turn into the dumbest caveman and give dumb answers. But, then, if they ''knew'' the answers, it would be a short show....

    *Anachronism Jack- Well, he sure is a walking, talking Anachronism. And, as a 19th century human he says things like ''a quiet as when Jonah got swallowed by the whale''. Oh, it's a great line, and as a 21 st century human I get the reference. But Delenn would have no idea, he might as well say ''balh blah balh''. Wonder if the Vorlons did it for a reason, to make the Inquisition harder?

    *No Body Knows Your Name- The Vorlon's seem to be worried about Fame. Guess they don't know the future as we know the names of Sheridin, Delenn and the rest will be well remembered for many thousands of years...

    *Hope you Die-Er, Sheridan seems a bit odd at the end with the ''I think it would be a good idea for the vorlons to let you die now''. It does not seem to be ''you hurt my all most girl friend and me'' kind of anger...but more ''you did a string of murders centuries ago''. It just feels a bit ''off'' that Sheridan really cares ''so much'' about people killed centuries ago....or was that just the writer talking.

    Final-B, This is a very compelling episode because it doesn't pull any punches in its treatment of the characters, especially Delenn. The final revelation about Sebastian's true identity could be considered just a tad trite, I suppose. It just barely works for me, I confess, precisely because "Sebastian" is such a legend. This is a show that is all about legends - both embracing and rejecting old legends, and creating new ones. The Vorlons deal in myth and legend (as do the Shadows, in their way). So bringing in this particular historical figure, particularly to use him in such a way as he is used here, manages to sidestep triteness for me.

  14. - Top - End - #494
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Comes the Inquisitor
    *Jack-Sigh, well, I guess it's just a writer thing as most writers do this from time to time. They just 'have to' toss in a famous/infamous historical figure from time to time and give them their own personal spin and interpretation.
    Yes, but it's also a very good way of showing that the Vorlons might not be the good beings that we've been led to believe. JMS himself verifies this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS
    Why bring up Sebastian's past? Because it's integral to who he is now, and what he's doing, and why he's doing it. Also, there's something very important here about greying up the Vorlons a little; of all the people they could've chosen for this job, why THIS kind of person? It makes them a trifle more morally ambiguous, which is necessary.

    "It doesn't fit in with the way the Vorlons have been portrayed. It bothered me."

    Good. That was the intended result.

    Part of the reason for the story was to grey up the Vorlons a little; one shouldn't fall too easily for what other people *say* they are.

    (One might also say much the same of the old testament god who would have Job so severely tested, btw.)

    One should always be cautious of taking *anyone* at face value on B5.

    "...you could consider them a force for good."

    Ah, but what *is* good? And whose *version* of good are we discussing?
    He also serves as a counterpart to Morden. The Shadows have this guy whom seems like an OK guy to most people. And just as the Shadows have their "nice guy", the Vorlons have ... him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Anachronism Jack- Well, he sure is a walking, talking Anachronism. And, as a 19th century human he says things like ''a quiet as when Jonah got swallowed by the whale''. Oh, it's a great line, and as a 21 st century human I get the reference. But Delenn would have no idea, he might as well say ''balh blah balh''. Wonder if the Vorlons did it for a reason, to make the Inquisition harder?
    Or he hasn't spent enough time around humans lately to pick up new ones. That's fairly common to use what you grew up with. I still tend to say things that were popular in the 80s, and my folks still tend to do it from the 60s. It's actually be stranger if he was caught up on "modern" earth sayings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Hope you Die-Er, Sheridan seems a bit odd at the end with the ''I think it would be a good idea for the vorlons to let you die now''. It does not seem to be ''you hurt my all most girl friend and me'' kind of anger...but more ''you did a string of murders centuries ago''. It just feels a bit ''off'' that Sheridan really cares ''so much'' about people killed centuries ago....or was that just the writer talking.
    But the torture is (arguably) something Delenn chose to accept. But Sheridan is reacting to having just figured out who this is (and therefore what he did). And it's made worse by him espousing it as a holy cause.

    The test isn't for Kosh's benefit. It's for Delenn herself. To make sure she's doing the right thing for the right reasons, and has the fortitude to see it through. And Jack is giving them the test he failed (metaphorically).

    Jack may no longer be necessary. And he's a horrible person who has done horrible things, the torture of Delenn and Sheridan being among the least of them. It's not surprising that Sheridan wants him gone for good for numerous reasons.

    Actually, if you want something more impressive, it's that B5 records can pull up the name of a man who just disappeared in 1888. That enough information/genealogy has been uploaded to make the connection with just a first name.

    Also, if you want a glitch, notice when Sheridan talks about the murders? They had to dub in "East End", because he originally said "West Side" (which was a writing error as that was the line he was given). It still shows up on the subtitles in some versions.
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  15. - Top - End - #495
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Also, if you want a glitch, notice when Sheridan talks about the murders? They had to dub in "East End", because he originally said "West Side" (which was a writing error as that was the line he was given). It still shows up on the subtitles in some versions.
    He originally said "West End", which is a part of London (unlike West Side), just not the *right* part of London. If you have subtitles saying "West Side" then they're doubly wrong, because they're not what he originally said and not the right thing to say there in any case.

  16. - Top - End - #496
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Now I want to see the Vorlon rendition of West Side Story. I'm sure it's a tour de force, just like the Elcor version of Hamlet.

  17. - Top - End - #497
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Now I want to see the Vorlon rendition of West Side Story. I'm sure it's a tour de force, just like the Elcor version of Hamlet.
    Surely you'd want to go and see a Narn opera, though? We've already heard in the show how...interesting the singing is.

  18. - Top - End - #498

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    The Fall of Night

    The Earth Alliance finally takes action regarding the Centauri Republic, while Sheridan protects a fugitive Narn ship.

    *Lenear and Vir- this is a great bit.

    *Foreshadowing-Nightwatch grows....

    *Centari Battle Cruiser- Sadly, this is close to the last time we see this type of Centari ship. Suddenly for the whole rest of the show we only see the 'Starfish Cruisers'.

    Bye Bye Luke-Keffer's mini arc ends and he finds a Shadow Battle Crab....and dies.


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *When they video chat with the Narn ship, for some reason the video comes up on the wall, and at the station where Sheridan is standing.

    *The Narn ship need ''more power'' to um, treat their sick and wounded crew-members. Wonder why they could not have just sent them over to B5's medlab?

    *When the Centari targets B5, we hear a very, very submarine-like 'lock on ping'....in space. Oddly I think this is the only time we hear it.

    *Crazy Centari- Well, it does seem a bit crazy for one battle cruiser to take on the whole station. Even if they did not know about the ''new and improved weapons from general Franklin'', they can scan the station and detect all the guns locking on, right? Plus the Centari have no fighter cover. Guess the captain was just a War Hawk of the ''we will win, for the Empire!'' type.

    *Centari Aim- Well, it's a cool visual shot and all.....but, er, why do the Centari shot off the forward cargo stabilizer? Not like it's a vital area to hit...

    Centari Tactics- Too bad they did not block the Jumpgate or even just target the Narn ships jump engines.

    *Medical Ships- When the Centari cruiser has just taken heavy damage Sheridan says the ''scramble the Medical Ships!'' Too bad we don't get to see them....I wonder what kinds of medical ships the station has...

    *No passengers- Sigh, in standard cartoonish TV logic every single innocent passenger on the core shuttle gets off right before the bomb blows.

    *Big Bomb- Er, the Centari bomb is huge. Where in the universe does the assassin hide it? Is it on his back? And how does he set it down on the seat without being too obvious?

    *Open Doors-Er well Sheridin just calls into his link and says ''computer open shuttle doors''. Well guess the all knowing computer just knows exactly where Sheridan is, right? Or it like traces the location of the link to know ''what shuttle doors'' to open. What about a poor person with no link? Does the Core Shuttle have no emergency open button?

    *Low gravity area- So the Core Shuttle is right in the middle of B5 right....so would that be almost ''no gravity''?

    *Dramatic Explosion- Ok, so Sheridan gets on the Core shuttle back at Station One (a Blue Sector?), and stays on past Station Two where everyone gets off (wink, wink) and is planning to go to (at least) Station Three. But...um....the Zen Garden is between stations 2 and 3. So...why did not Sheridan get off at station 2? For some reason he was going to go past the Zen Garden to station three, then, um, turn around and walk backwards? But, of course, if he did not do this his shuttle could not blow up directly above the Zen Garden for all to see.

    *Weightless- So Sheridan in ''mid space'' between the Core Shuttle Track and the Floor/Hull of B5 is basically weightless. Well, would he not be just as weightless on the core shuttle?

    *Kosh Rising- So, Kosh rises up from the Zen Garden full of people. But, um, no one sees him rise up from the ground when clearly lots of people see him rise up from the ground Er, maybe Kosh used telepathy to erased everyone's minds?

    *Londo's Sight- So Londo saw nothing? Like angel Kosh is invisible to Londo? Is it because Londo has been Touched By the Shadows? It's not that the Vorlons never visited or messed with the Centari, right? So like Vir saw a Centari angel right?

    *Wonder what happened to the bomber assassin?

    Final-A, This is the last episode of the season, so it has a nice ending voiceover by Ivanova: the Centauri have expanding their attacks, but that the threat closer to home was worse. She says that the goal of B5 - peace - has failed, but, it is now the best hope for victory.

  19. - Top - End - #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Londo's Sight- So Londo saw nothing? Like angel Kosh is invisible to Londo? Is it because Londo has been Touched By the Shadows?
    I'm pretty sure that's exactly the reason for that. It was showing that Londo's corruption ran so deep that he could no longer perceive the Vorlon--or else he saw something horrible that he didn't want to admit to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's exactly the reason for that. It was showing that Londo's corruption ran so deep that he could no longer perceive the Vorlon--or else he saw something horrible that he didn't want to admit to.
    My understanding of the intent (don't have a source, don't recall where I got this) was that it was because Londo has no faith, no true belief. That the way Kosh's power works is that it taps into something you truly believe in. So Dr. Franklin, a follower of Foundationism, saw Kosh as a blend of the species he was familiar with due to his universal beliefs, and his belief that god, whom Kosh's ability is supposed to make him resemble, if only as an angelic servant thereof, is too big for words, too universal.

    But Londo believes in nothing. He doesn't even really believe in himself, and at that point, he can't even be said to really believe in the Centauri Empire or its people. So he saw nothing.
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    Default Matters of Honor, Convictions

    This week, we'll be discussing:
    • Matters of Honor
    • Convictions


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

    This is also a good time to discuss Season 2 to Season 3 transition issues, such as the opening credits change or cast changes.

  22. - Top - End - #502
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    It's a bit odd that Ivanova refers to "the year of the Shadow War" in the opening credits, because we know the war goes on into the next season? Anyroad, on to the episodes...

    Matters of Honor: Oh, so that Shadow vessel sighting at the end of last season does cause stuff to happen? I'd forgotten all about that. Is Earthforce Special Intelligence here because they want to find out more about the Shadows, though, or are they here to ensure that the B5 command staff don't know anything about them? Given what we see in this episode, more likely to be the latter! Londo and Morden divide up the galaxy between the Centauri and the Shadows, with Londo wanting to get out of this deal he's landed himself in...ah, Mollari, it's a lot harder than that to extract yourself from these serpent coils. Oh, and we get our first look at the White Star, the most advanced warship of any of the younger races.

    Most of the episode is the introduction of Marcus, though. I wonder if he was always intended to be added here, or if JMS just felt he needed a Ranger character front and centre?

    Convictions: Bombs everywhere! Seems people saw the Centauri try to blow things up at the end of last season and decided it was time for them to have a go too. Lennier saves Londo from one, an act of self-sacrifice which seems to affect Londo greatly, but the main meat here is the two-hander between Londo and G'Kar in the elevator. Seeing G'Kar sit there and quite calmly say he would rather watch Londo die than they both be rescued is quite chilling--once again, Andreas Katsulas knocks it out of the park. He looks quite disappointed when they are, in fact, both rescued.

    There's a B plot about various religious types making pilgrimages to the station after the vision of Kosh from last season. I think Brother Theo (the leader of the Catholic monks) pops up again a few times, but I don't think much else is made of this, which is kind of a pity--would have been interesting to see a few weird alien cults get founded in Brown Sector. Factoid: Louis Turenne, who plays Brother Theo, was also the first Draal.
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-08-07 at 09:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Is Earthforce Special Intelligence here because they want to find out more about the Shadows, though, or are they here to ensure that the B5 command staff don't know anything about them? Given what we see in this episode, more likely to be the latter!
    As I recall it was pretty clear that Endawi was told the former, but the people who sent him actually wanted the latter. And expand that from the B5 command staff to basically anyone with any power on B5 who could try to oppose the Shadows.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Lennier saves Londo from one, an act of self-sacrifice which seems to affect Londo greatly, but the main meat here is the two-hander between Londo and G'Kar in the elevator. Seeing G'Kar sit there and quite calmly say he would rather watch Londo die than they both be rescued is quite chilling--once again, Andreas Katsulas knocks it out of the park. He looks quite disappointed when they are, in fact, both rescued.
    It's impressive how those scenes really hit the chilling aspect of G'Kar's hatred for Londo while at the same time being utterly hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    There's a B plot about various religious types making pilgrimages to the station after the vision of Kosh from last season. I think Brother Theo (the leader of the Catholic monks) pops up again a few times,
    Yeah, once in two episodes time and then again towards the end of the season. I always quite liked Brother Theo as a recurring minor character.
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  24. - Top - End - #504

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Matters of Honor

    Earthgov begins investigating the Shadow ship video, while Sheridan has his first encounter with one.

    *Continuity Repairs-It's nice to see the station being repaired.

    *Third Season Opening-It's a big improvement, and it has all them nice highlights from season 2. It makes the desperation and violence of the impending war so clear and is very evocative.

    *Marcus-He is one of my favorite characters. I don't think he was ever part of the plan. After all the original plan would be to have an aid for G'Kar and a Resident Telepath as part of the cast. But both actresses left the show. This left the 'hole' for fighter pilot Keffer for one season, but at the start of season 3, you were back with two open spots. And the spots were filled with Marcus and Zack.

    *Pike- It's cute how they save money on the fighting pike opening/closing special effects by having it 'slightly off camera'.

    *Different Views- It's really nice to see Deleen panic and not know what to do when the Shadow battlecrab appears. It really highlights that she is a religious cleric, and not a tactical military person. Sheridin, on the other had, just sees a tactical military problem to solve. Sheridan was the ultimate soldier here, remaining absolutely calm and in command in an incredibly stressful and urgent situation. He showed very quick thinking in coming up with the plan to destroy the Shadow ship. The plan was risky, yes, but definitely a calculated risk. He seems to have a talent for using conventional ships and weaponry in unconventional ways.

    *Dark Plots- So we have a lady in the government, a Psicore guy and Morden all piloting together in a dark conspiracy. It's interesting to note that Bester is Not part of the conspiracy....maybe some other Psicore people were trying for thier own grab at power. And we know Morden helped Clark, but it is a wonder what the 'plan' for Earth is? The Shadows have used the current human fears about aliens and war to encourage the isolationist tendencies of the current administration. Now the Shadows have done a pretty good job of neutralizing the Centauri, the Narn, and the Earth Alliance. That should make their work much easier in the next war.....

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Clueless Doc Franklin-As this episode points out, it's not such a great idea to have Doc Franklin out of the loop and in the Dark about things. He finds and sees the Ranger amulet, but has no idea what it is.

    *Sight Unseen-So Deleen says she has never seen a Shadow Battle crab. But the Minbari fought the shadows 1,000 years ago and had space flight technology. So they had at least ''like 20th century Earth'' tech, maybe more like ''21st century earth''. But no Minbari made any video recordings of the Shadow War or the ships? No photographs? Sure if the images were stored on a Minbari ''Beta VCR'' tape way back in 1260 (Earth time) they would not last 1,000 years....but they could have 'upgraded ' the images to the 'new' format every 100 years or so. And 1,000 years is a long time to save something, but the Minbari did save the 'descriptions' of the ships...and lots of other notes. We humans have saved stuff for 1,000 years...like the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example.

    *Marcus's Plan- If you want to call it a 'plan'. Ok, so he races to B5 on minimal life support and just barley makes it. He knows, or he should know, Sheridan is the co-leader of the Rangers and Garibaldi is a contact. Yet when he wakes up in medlab, he runs? Why does he just not say ''I need to see Sheridan or Garibaldi or Deleen'' right there? So he runs and hides. Then he sneaks his amulet over to Lenear and asks for a meeting....in the worst part of Down Below. And then ''wants to go some place more private''!

    *Lenear's tounge- So Lenear can detect alcohol by taste?

    *Silly Exposition- So Marcus is in a hurry and people are dying, but he has time to tell Deleen the amulet story...that she likely already knows.

    *Shadow Map- Er, wow, the Shadows and the Centari carve up the entire galaxy !?! That is a bit much, as most episodes seem to take place in only like a couple hundred light years of space...or less.

    *Vorlon Tech- So the White Star has Vorlon technology? Wow, wonder how they got that? Like some Vorlon's agreed to give it to them? I mean I does make a bit of sense that the Vorlon's might give high tech to other races to fight the Shadows, as all others tech is weak.....but if that is true, why only give tech to the Minbari?

    *Space Mines- So.....again everyone calls the devices blockading Zagros Three ''mines''. They sure look and act a lot more like ''automated orbiting drone satellites'' and not ''mines''.

    *Grave robbing- Is it really so *bad* to take resources from a world with no people? The world must be full of tons of manufactured goods and items too. Though guess Sheridan just has the ''Hollywood'' point of view.

    *Lucky Guess-As the Shadows don't use the jump gate superstructures, and do not even make jump points.....well, it sure is lucky that the battlecrab chasing the White Star 'phases' out of hyperspace right in the jump gate superstructure so it can be caught by the blast.

    *Missing Ship-So the battlecrab sent to Zagros Three, as far as the Shadows know, just ''disappears''. It's sent to the planet and then is gone....and the Shadows just forget about it?

    *Roving Rangers- So the Shadows have the planet blockaded as they know there is a Ranger camp there....right? So the Shadows know about the Rangers then?

    Final-A, This is an incredible episode that starts the season out with a huge bang.

  25. - Top - End - #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    A couple of hundred telepaths in a population that must be well into the tens of billions is pretty darned rare, all told. I don't think there's anything in the show that points to telepaths being commonplace?
    Well when they had the underground railroad of telepaths, there were what... about 15 of them on Babylon 5? Figure when somebody gets there they were on the station for somewhere around 1-2 months while Franklin figured out their papers and destinations and you're looking at somewhere around 100 rogue telepaths being shuttled per year through Babylon 5.

    That's a pretty large number and points to the overall community being in the tens or hundreds of thousands at a minimum for the rogues to be that big a community.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2017-08-08 at 09:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    And we know Morden helped Clark, but it is a wonder what the 'plan' for Earth is? The Shadows have used the current human fears about aliens and war to encourage the isolationist tendencies of the current administration. Now the Shadows have done a pretty good job of neutralizing the Centauri, the Narn, and the Earth Alliance. That should make their work much easier in the next war.....
    I think you're missing the point of why the Shadows do what they do. They actually believe that the best way to get the younger races to develop is to make them fight each other (like throwing someone into a river to try and get them to learn to swim). It's not a matter of "neutralising" anyone for the next war, it's a matter of getting as many races involved in the current one as possible. Making sure the humans are led by xenophobic isolationists is a pretty good way of making sure they're going to go to war at some point, whereas the previous administration were more about acting as galactic peacekeepers.

  27. - Top - End - #507

    Default Re: Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think you're missing the point of why the Shadows do what they do. They actually believe that the best way to get the younger races to develop is to make them fight each other (like throwing someone into a river to try and get them to learn to swim). It's not a matter of "neutralising" anyone for the next war, it's a matter of getting as many races involved in the current one as possible. Making sure the humans are led by xenophobic isolationists is a pretty good way of making sure they're going to go to war at some point, whereas the previous administration were more about acting as galactic peacekeepers.
    Maybe you are missing the point?

    To say the Shadows just want a big battle is very simplistic. And if that is all they wanted, why do they do so much more stuff? Why don't they just ''attack!'' and start the big battle?

    Just look at what the Shadows did: at the start of 2258 there were five big major space powers: Humans, Vorlons, Minbari, Centari and Narn. So out of the five what ones played major parts in the Shadow War? The Centari are not involved in the Shadow War at all, until the very last day of the war (''what are you going to do Molari, blow up the island?"") and the huge vast bulk of Earth has no idea the shadow war even exists and the Narn are hardly a civilization, let alone a military presence. Then ask yourself why did those three major powers NOT get involved with the Shadow War? The answer: The Shadows manipulated them not too.

    And in a very creepy way, the Shadows sure do seem to care about both humans and the Centari. Everyone else they just betray and attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    To say the Shadows just want a big battle is very simplistic. And if that is all they wanted, why do they do so much more stuff? Why don't they just ''attack!'' and start the big battle?
    It would be very simplistic, yes, so it's a good thing I never said that. The Shadows want all-out war between the young races, not a single big battle. Furthermore, attacking them openly themselves would not fulfil their aims, because the young races will just band together against the common foe--which is pretty much what ends up happening this time around. The Shadows work in secret, helping out this race here, that race somewhere else, with the objective of sowing dissent. They don't want territory for themselves, whatever Morden said when talking to Mollari.
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-08-09 at 10:42 AM.

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    Convictions

    A crazy bomber terrorizes the station.

    *Look who it is- Louis Turenne returns to B5, but not as Drall, but as Brother Theo. Brother Theo is exactly the kind of genuinely spiritual man who gives religion a good name. He is low-key, tolerant, gently humorous, and extremely practical.

    *Londo's vigil is a nice touch, and fits in with the character's histories.

    *And the Londo and G'kar elevator bit is a real gem. G'kar is deadly serious, but also crazy funny(''I hear you...").



    Things that don't Make Sense

    *Deleen takes a public Minbari transport? Guess her personal flyer was in the shop? And is this the first Minbari ship to ever come to the station?

    *Merece- Is he some sort of Bomb Squad Security guy? Seems very specific to have a guy do that job.

    *Get away- Well, sure the guy is crazy and all.....but did he really think he could just fly off in a ship and get away?

    *Yellow Sector- So how do the inspection guys get into Yellow Sector: the big part of the station that does not rotate and is in micro gravity. But how do they get in? Guess you need to leave the station zipping around at 60 mph, then fire thrusts to slow down to zero, then move over to Yellow Sector.

    *So the mad bomber here does make us wonder what ever happened to that Centari bomber assassin?




    *Final- C, The "mad bomber" plot just didn't work that well. The mystery and suspense of figuring out the bomber's purpose and whether there would be further explosions was reasonably well done. The bomber himself was very unimpressive. The actor seemed to be playing his best impression of John Malkovich, but the motivation behind the character was seriously lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Yellow Sector- So how do the inspection guys get into Yellow Sector: the big part of the station that does not rotate and is in micro gravity. But how do they get in? Guess you need to leave the station zipping around at 60 mph, then fire thrusts to slow down to zero, then move over to Yellow Sector.
    Doesn't it show them flying in space in spacesuits, or am I thinking of another episode? As for the 60mph thing, that's only at the edge of the main body of the station--at the centreline there would be rotation but very little linear speed, so they could potentially either go down a passage from the rotating part to the stationary part, or else pop out of a door at the narrowest part of the rotating station and fly over from there.

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