Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Darth Ultron]

Exogenesis

Strange alien parasites are taking over the bodies of people on B5.

Alien- Well the alien here sure is a ''Go'ould'', though this episode was a year before Stargate SG-1 came out.

*Look who it is-Samuel is played by Eric Steinberg, who has been in a lot of TV shows, but for just sci-fi he was Natan, the evil Lucian Alliance Leader on Stargate SG-1.

*Vindrizi are a race that possesses/controls/melds with a humanoid hoist....and they are not the last alien life form we see like this...

Things that don't Make Sense

*Wonder why some Doc's wear standard Earthforce uniforms, and some wear plain gray clothing (Space
Scrubs?).

*Marcus goes to Garibaldi for help because ''people act strange''? Like what could or would Garibaldi do to help a ''acting strange '' person? Arrest them?

*So Doc Franklin can open any door? Humm, wonder if we will ever see that used again.

*So why do the alien's rip big holes in the walls?

*An why to the snake sized Vindrizi make so much, hanging white stuff to fill the tunnel?

*Wonder why Coffee is not considered a fruit to be grown on the station?

*Wonder why the cell was not locked?

*Marcus has a gun for most of the end of the episode, kida odd as he does not seem to be the 'gun' type.

*I guess the Vindrizi hang out on the station for the next couple years? Wonder why we never see them again? Too bad in their ''million years'' or whatever of history they did not learn anything that could say help in the Shadow War or something. Sure the Vindrizi have a stupid ''Prime Detective'' that says they must hide and horde all knowledge, but still....

Final- D, A fairly standard "filler" episode for the most part, though not without interest for being the first of several episodes to use Dr. Franklin and Marcus as an unlikely team. Ultimately, the parasite plot is unfulfilling because it bears absolutely no connection to the overall plot in the series. That's not crucial to a good episode, but it could have helped raise this poor episode to something more.

[tomandtish]

*Marcus goes to Garibaldi for help because ''people act strange''? Like what could or would Garibaldi do to help a ''acting strange '' person? Arrest them?

He's going to the person who he suspects probably best has his finger on the pulse of the station. He's the one most likely to know what is and isn't normal, is in the know about the Rangers, and can actually do something if the concerns are valid.

*So Doc Franklin can open any door? Humm, wonder if we will ever see that used again.

Medical override is common in sci-fi shows.

*Wonder why Coffee is not considered a fruit to be grown on the station?

On average it would take 16 plants to provide 3 people 1 cup of coffee a day, or one person 3 cups a day. Coffee is not particularly space friendly when space is at a premium.

Here's some math:

Spoiler

Show

The average American drinks 3.2 cups of coffee per day
This equates to 1,168 cups of coffee per year
Since 45 cups of coffee can be made from one pound of roasted coffee beans, then the average American consumes 25.95 pounds of roasted coffee beans per year.
Roasted coffee loses 20% of its weight in the roasting process, so the average consumption equates to 32.44 pounds of green coffee beans per year.Note: @ 3,500 green coffee beans per pound, the average consumption would be 113,555 green coffee beans per year.
Green coffee beans are derived from twin seeds found inside a coffee cherry. These twin seeds only contribute 20% of the coffee cherry's weight, so the weight of coffee cherries needed to satisfy the consumption is 162.2 pounds of coffee cherry. Note: this is roughly what one person could pick in a day.
Since the average coffee tree produces 10 pounds of coffee cherry per year (2 pounds green beans), then 16 coffee trees are required to supply the average American's coffee drinking habit. Note: @ 1square metre per tree = 16 m2 of farming space.

[factotum]

*Wonder why some Doc's wear standard Earthforce uniforms, and some wear plain gray clothing (Space
Scrubs?).

Maybe some of them aren't actually Earthforce personnel, but regular civilian doctors? B5 isn't technically a military station, after all--the Earthforce command staff are all military personnel, but the station itself has to be militarily and politically neutral or else its entire purpose for existing is gone. And President Clark wouldn't have felt the need to send warships to take the station if it was already under military control!

[Thufir]

And President Clark wouldn't have felt the need to send warships to take the station if it was already under military control!

Um... yes he would? I mean the whole reason there was a civil war was because a lot of the military (most notably Sheridan) disagreed with Clark to the point of being willing to fight against him, so if Clark didn't trust the military personnel controlling the station to follow his orders he would absolutely send warships to take it. Which is exactly the thing that actually happened.

[factotum]

It's my opinion that, if there had been more military personnel aboard the station, Clark would have just got *them* to take the place from inside. I believe the reason he had to send warships was because there weren't enough Earthforce personnel aboard for him to reliably get them to oust the senior guys. We already know he had some agents aboard since one of them shot Garibaldi in the back, after all.

[tomandtish]

There are a fair number of Earth Force personnel on B5, but it's important to understand the distinction among the various parts of Earth Force.

Earthforce is composed of three separate branches: Fleet, Marines, and Security. Flag officers from all three divisions comprise a Joint Chiefs of Staff who report directly to the President of the Earth Alliance. Personnel may transfer between divisions - Richard Franklin served in the Fleet early in his career, but by the time we actually see him (in "GROPOS"), he is a General in the Marines.

B5 has a small fleet force (Starfury pilots, Sheridan and Ivanova) and a decent size security force (led by Garibaldi). It apparently does not have marines stationed there, presumably because that would be too aggressive in appearance for a station that is supposed to be an open port.

Technically Medcorps is a separate entity, but it is so ingrained with fleet and marines that it is usually considered part of them.

Clark did have allies/supporters on B5. Heck, that's the whole point of the Night Watch arc. But he didn't have enough to take control of the station. Remember, they tried and Sheridan captured them with help from the Narn. He used the chain of command issue to buy time.

And that's when Clark fully realizes that he isn't going to control B5, and the only way to take it is through a full military attack.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Messages from Earth
• Point of No Return
• Severed Dreams

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

Hoo boy, are things kicking into high gear now...

Messages from Earth: Apparently, a Shadow ship was discovered on Mars some years ago, but it escaped when one of its fellows turned up. Now they've discovered another one on Ganymede, and this time the Earthforce authorities are not so willing to let it go--they're planning to merge the ship with a human and take it under control. Sheridan decides this can't be allowed, so he takes the White Star to Sol system despite the danger in order to prevent the Shadow ship being used.

Unfortunately, they get there too late--the human has already been merged with the ship, and because he wasn't "prepared" the ship has gone insane. It destroys the Ganymede base. Sheridan gets its attention and then runs into Jupiter's atmosphere, hoping the immense pressure will destroy the ship. This works, but the White Star gets intercepted by Sheridan's old ship the Agamemnon while trying to get out of the atmosphere. So, they have to form a jump gate inside the atmosphere to escape, a highly dangerous manoeuvre that nonetheless works.

Unfortunately, President Clark uses this incident to his own ends--he pretends that the Ganymede base was destroyed by the White Star, and uses it as an excuse to impose martial law on Earth. Meanwhile, General Hague in the Alexander and a bunch of other ships openly declare rebellion against President Clark.

Rewatching this, there are a couple of things that don't make sense in retrospect. Firstly, we know that Earthforce are covertly working with the Shadows, so why are they hiding this Shadow ship? Secondly, why are there two buried Shadow vessels in Sol system in the first place? The previous Shadow war took place while we were only just coming out of the Dark Ages, you have to wonder why they had so much interest in us that they sent ships here, especially when they sent so many they could apparently lose two without noticing!

Point of No Return: Nightwatch are taking over station security due to the martial law declaration from the previous episode. In order to prevent this, Sheridan etc. plan to bring in Narn to take over security duties--Zack Allan reports this to his Nightwatch buddies, who gather in the docking bay to stop the Narns arriving. But, psych! It's actually a plot--Zack escapes, trapping Nightwatch in the docking bay, while Sheridan tells them that the order requiring them to take over security is illegal since it was issued outside the military chain of command, and that they're going to be arrested for treason and mutiny. Meanwhile, it turns out that security *is* going to be taken over by Narn, but they're not being shipped in--they'll be recruited from the Narn population already aboard the station.

B plot: Londo calls in the late Emperor Turhan's widow (played by Majel Barrett of Star Trek fame) to do a prophecy for him. She tells him that both he and Vir will be Emperor, with one assuming the role after the other is dead. Londo can save himself from damnation, but he has to "save the eye that does not see", must not "kill the one who already dead", and if he fails those, he must "surrender to his greatest fear, knowing it will destroy him".

Severed Dreams: This episode won a Hugo for best dramatic presentation, and it's not hard to see why. After a "joke" opening with Londo getting frustrated with the Narn security, we switch to the Alexander under attack. Major Ryan (replacing General Hague, whose actor "double-booked" to appear on DS9 instead) has to take the decision to destroy the Clarkstown in order to escape. "That's what makes this war different from anything we've gone through before--we *know* everyone we kill". (Cool line, but one assumes he's implying "within living memory" rather than "forever", because humans are actually quite efficient at killing each other). When the Alexander reaches B5, Ryan informs the command staff that Earth colonies are resisting the implementation of martial law--while that discussion takes place, a message comes in saying that Mars is being bombed because of that.

Delenn learns that the Shadows are inciting members of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds to war with their neighbours. The Grey Council refuses to become involved, so she leaves the station to confront them. She breaks the Council's staff and leads the worker and religious caste out, leaving just the warrior caste behind.

Back on B5, we see an ISN broadcast which is interrupted by troops storming the ISN building. The Churchill arrives at B5, saying they've intercepted messages saying a taskforce is on its way to seize the station. Sheridan declares B5 to be independent via a holographic projection of himself, then everyone prepares for the battle. And what a battle it is! We have JMS performing his favourite manoeuvre when the critically damaged Churchill rams an enemy destroyer, and B5 itself takes down one of the others along with the Alexander. (Note: the dialog and the SFX don't match up here--Sheridan states that the destroyer the station fires on is the Roanoke, but that's the one that the Churchill rammed earlier). They think the battle is all over, but then another group of Earthforce vessels jump in, along with jump points right on top of the station. However, this new force is a group of Minbari cruisers along with the White Star, which leads to one of the most badass exchanges ever:

Delenn: "This is Ambassador Delenn of the Minbari. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw--or be destroyed."
Drake: "Negative. We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship."
Delenn: "Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."

Whoa! Well, Drake and his ships apparently remember at this point that they left the gas on and leave. The battle is over, B5 has won, and Sheridan no longer feels he can wear his Earthforce uniform with a clear conscience. B5 also gets a bunch of new Starfuries and pilots, since the Churchill won't be needing them anymore...

Factoids:
- According to JMS, the reason the SFX doesn't match the dialog is because there are so many effects shots they literally only finished it all on the day the episode was due to the be delivered, so there was no time to fix the mismatch.
- Jerry Doyle fell and broke his arm while filming the scenes where he and the Narn repel the boarders, so they actually filmed the scene where he drops his helmet with him having the broken arm--you can see it bend in ways arms aren't supposed to bend at that point. They had to write the broken arm into subsequent scripts.
- JMS actually wanted the actor Everett McGill to play Major Ryan, but couldn't remember his first name, so just told the production team to "get that McGill guy". And so we ended up with Bruce McGill in the role. Can't say the error had bad consequences, I think Bruce did a bang-up job!

[Daimbert]

Rewatching this, there are a couple of things that don't make sense in retrospect. Firstly, we know that Earthforce are covertly working with the Shadows, so why are they hiding this Shadow ship?

Clark wants the technology of the Shadows, but the way the deal is working he'd be dependent on them for it and only get what they decide to let him have. If, on the other hand, they can reverse-engineer and control this tech, they can build it for themselves and not have to rely on the Shadows for it. He risks angering the Shadows, but it would give him some extra independence if it works.

Secondly, why are there two buried Shadow vessels in Sol system in the first place? The previous Shadow war took place while we were only just coming out of the Dark Ages, you have to wonder why they had so much interest in us that they sent ships here, especially when they sent so many they could apparently lose two without noticing!

My understanding was that those ships were planted there after the Shadows were convinced that they were going to lose the war to be used in the next one. Thus, putting them in an out of the way area was an advantage because the Minbari and Vorlons weren't going to stumble across them by accident. And if the Humans found them that might only help to accelerate their plans, especially if the Vorlons and Minbari don't move to exert influence over them first.

while Sheridan tells them that the order requiring them to take over security is illegal since it was issued outside the military chain of command, and that they're going to be arrested for treason and mutiny.

This, to me, highlights one of the main differences between Sinclair and Sheridan. Does anyone think that this would have to be pretty much spelled out for Sinclair and that it would have taken Sinclair that long to figure out the loophole? I mean, Sheridan's superior did everything short of "Order-ay Illegal-ay!" and Sheridan STILL couldn't figure it out for the longest time.

[factotum]

My understanding was that those ships were planted there after the Shadows were convinced that they were going to lose the war to be used in the next one. Thus, putting them in an out of the way area was an advantage because the Minbari and Vorlons weren't going to stumble across them by accident.

An "out of the way area", in this case, is a system holding a race that are clearly advanced enough that they'll probably be in space before the next war starts. They genuinely couldn't find an uninhabited system they could have used? Also, the Shadows don't actually "win" or "lose" the wars they start, because their objective is not to take territory for themselves or what-have-you--it's to get the younger races fighting wars between themselves in order to toughen them up. This is why they spend time cultivating people like Londo, so he can wage a proxy war on their behalf without them ever needing to reveal their hand.

[Daimbert]

An "out of the way area", in this case, is a system holding a race that are clearly advanced enough that they'll probably be in space before the next war starts. They genuinely couldn't find an uninhabited system they could have used?

They probably did, for some of them. But as I said there is an advantage to being near a developing race that doesn't have strong Vorlon influence yet. since if they do manage to discover it that would give them the head start on influencing them, pretty much just like EA and Clark were doing here/

Also, the Shadows don't actually "win" or "lose" the wars they start, because their objective is not to take territory for themselves or what-have-you--it's to get the younger races fighting wars between themselves in order to toughen them up. This is why they spend time cultivating people like Londo, so he can wage a proxy war on their behalf without them ever needing to reveal their hand.

They lost because the Vorlons were the ones who became the dominant influence on the younger races after the first Shadow War. They don't need territory, but they DO want their influence to be the dominant one in this conflict.

[Olinser]

An "out of the way area", in this case, is a system holding a race that are clearly advanced enough that they'll probably be in space before the next war starts. They genuinely couldn't find an uninhabited system they could have used? Also, the Shadows don't actually "win" or "lose" the wars they start, because their objective is not to take territory for themselves or what-have-you--it's to get the younger races fighting wars between themselves in order to toughen them up. This is why they spend time cultivating people like Londo, so he can wage a proxy war on their behalf without them ever needing to reveal their hand.

Uh..... Babylon 5 was set in 2258-2262. A thousand years ago was the 1200s, where humans were iron age technology, still struggling to feed themselves, and were in more or less a constant state of warfare (though the intensity varied). In fact, technology really hadn't advanced that much since the Roman period, 1000 years previously. So yeah, given that humanity had spent 1000 years in more or less technological stagnation, it was a pretty good bet they wouldn't get space tech by the time the Shadows wanted to dig the ship up, ESPECIALLY because it meant that a race like the Minbari wasn't likely to interfere with another race by settling the system.

And it was a good bet, because even though Earth had space tech, they were no threat to the Minbari, much less the Shadows. Only because they were using Minbari ships were any humans a threat at all to the Shadow ships.

And when the ship was discovered it sent out a distress call and another ship came and dug it up anyway.

[Knaight]

Uh..... Babylon 5 was set in 2258-2262. A thousand years ago was the 1200s, where humans were iron age technology, still struggling to feed themselves, and were in more or less a constant state of warfare (though the intensity varied). In fact, technology really hadn't advanced that much since the Roman period, 1000 years previously. So yeah, given that humanity had spent 1000 years in more or less technological stagnation, it was a pretty good bet they wouldn't get space tech by the time the Shadows wanted to dig the ship up, ESPECIALLY because it meant that a race like the Minbari wasn't likely to interfere with another race by settling the system.

So are we just completely ignoring everywhere other than Europe, or what? Even if we are, we still have to ignore how the 1200s were in the middle of what was basically a watermill based industrial revolution, with the different applications of the mills (beyond just grinding grains) multiplying rapidly - and that's without getting into the rise of cities, the beginning of the guild system, and a whole bunch of other things. The 1000 years of technological stagnation don't actually exist.

With that said, the Shadows making the bet that they wouldn't get to space in 1000 years and that the low tech natives might provide some level of deterrent towards existing higher tech species is fairly reasonable. There's also the matter of how the Shadow ships actively benefit from having an intelligent species to capture and use nearby, which is also why they settled Narn.

[tomandtish]

Simple fact is: We have no way to judge if humans are ahead of the curve on development, behind it, or right on track. Going from where we were in the 1200s to where we are in 2258 could have everyone marveling at how gifted we are because we did it so quickly, or marveling at how stupid we are because it took so long.

Also remember that the 1000 years ago isn't necessarily OUR 1000 years. 1 Minbari year equals 1.4 earth years but a Minbari day is 20 hours 47 minutes*, so 1000 Minbari years equals roughly 1212 of our years. So when Delenn says 1000 years ago, does she mean our years? Minbari Years (which would put it at 1000 AD our time)? Someone else's?

*Novel "To Dream in the City of Shadows" which is considered canon. Sinclair comments how it messed with his sleep at first.

[Darth Ultron]

Messages from Earth

Sheridan uses the White Star to destroy a Shadow ship the Earthgov has discovered.


Things that don't Make Sense

Food Filler- Again, we get the silly idea that for some reason B5 is so far away from everywhere they can't get fresh food. Sure Earth is far, but there are other planets right? Wonder why no one set up a farm on Epsilon 3. Later we are told it is a two day jump to Earth space. Two days? So some Space Trucker can't get a couple dozen eggs or any other perishable food to B5 in two days?

A lot of people want Dr. Kirkish dead...like Psi Core or Earthgov...and who else to make ''a lot''?

Thugs-Wonder why all the thugs attack Marcus bare handed?

Seven Years Ago- 2253 has the Shadows active....except they were not woken up until the Icraus landed on Zah'a'Dom in 2257.

Big Conspiracy- So Psi Core was working with the Shadows in 2253? Well, guess it is possible. Wonder how long they have been working together.

Bigger Conspiracy-So Earthgov knows about the Shadows in 2253 too then right? Or is this just a secret Deep State Shadow (haha) government within the government.

It's alive-So Shadow ships are alive, just like Vorlon ships. So does a Shadow Ship ''count'' as ''A Shadow''? There are Shadow People crew members on a Shadow Battle Crab, right? I guess they go to sleep with the ship (it would make sense right?). But a Shadow Ship needs a living person to be the Core Computer, so guess they put them asleep too?

Sleep Room- So, sure, guess all the normal Minbari crew ''bunk together'' in the big crooked bed room...but does not the Captain get his own room? Why does Sheridan hot bunk in the common crew sleep room?

Shadow Wake Up Call- So the Shadows know where all their buried ships are, right? Wounder why they have not been digging them up for years?

Sure is amazing that Sheridan gets to Ganymede about one minute before Bob ''walks inside of the Shadow Ship.

Dumb Idea-Er, so, who had the idea to send Bob into the Shadow Ship in the first place? Like ''ok Bob you just go inside this ancient alien super powerful ship and take control of it, it should only take you like ten seconds, we will go wait in the bunker."

Two Standard Gravitates? Standard by what? Standard Earth Gravity?

Standard Temperature? Again, by what standard?

Surprise: The EAS Agamemnon, Sheridan's old ship, just happens to have the exciting ''Jupiter Guard Duty Job''. What a coincidence.

Odd Awkwardness: Kinda weird that the Captain of the Agamemnon (whoever he is) just says ''we are the Agamemnon'' and does not say ''This is Captain Jack Reynolds''.

Who is the Captain of the EAS Agamemnon anyway? Is Captain James in command like he will be by two episodes? It does not sound like him, but maybe it's just Communications Officer Bell...

An Atmospheric Jump- Sheridan acts like this has never been done.

Final- A, This excellent episode really gets the ball rolling on a lot of the plots that have been building throughout the series. After the events of this episode and the next few, nothing about the series and characters will be the same again. It's always so much fun to watch it happening again, even when one knows what is going to happen.

[tomandtish]

Food Filler- Again, we get the silly idea that for some reason B5 is so far away from everywhere they can't get fresh food. Sure Earth is far, but there are other planets right? Wonder why no one set up a farm on Epsilon 3. Later we are told it is a two day jump to Earth space. Two days? So some Space Trucker can't get a couple dozen eggs or any other perishable food to B5 in two days?

You absolutely can.. IF you are willing to pay for it. Its not that it CAN'T be done. But it can't be done cheaply. Earth Force doesn't want to pay that much.

My Paternal Grandmother remarried before I was born, so my Dad and I had a step-father/step-grandfather on that side of the family, along with all the other relatives that come along. And they were/are a navy family,withe every male who could going career. And the always did say that after a week or so fresh food became an issue (es. for those on subs).

[factotum]

And they were/are a navy family,withe every male who could going career. And the always did say that after a week or so fresh food became an issue (es. for those on subs).

That's not quite the same situation--a Navy ship is presumably constantly moving while on assignment, so having another ship take fresh food to it would be getting a bit silly. B5 is stationary, so it would be more like shipping fresh food to a Navy shore station that happens to be in a remote location. You're probably right that this is an expense that Earthforce doesn't want, though.

Setting up a farm on Epsilon 3 would cost even more than that--the entire planet is lifeless and, I think, without atmosphere, so you'd have to create some sort of dome to put your plants in. It would be easier to grow crops in one of the gardens on the inner surface of B5 itself, since they already grow trees and the like there!

As for the Shadows being active in 2253, we only saw a single ship, presumably responding to a distress call sent out by the buried vessel when it was uncovered--I don't think there was any obvious sign that Earthforce or Psi-Corps were working *with* the Shadows that early, they just happened to find an alien ship and wanted to know more about it.

[Daimbert]

A lot of people want Dr. Kirkish dead...like Psi Core or Earthgov...and who else to make ''a lot''?

Um, isn't that enough [grin]?

It's alive-So Shadow ships are alive, just like Vorlon ships. So does a Shadow Ship ''count'' as ''A Shadow''? There are Shadow People crew members on a Shadow Battle Crab, right? I guess they go to sleep with the ship (it would make sense right?). But a Shadow Ship needs a living person to be the Core Computer, so guess they put them asleep too?

First, the Shadow ships aren't the same species as the Shadows, and neither are most of the controllers. Second, there generally aren't crew on Shadow ships; they can take passengers and cargo, but don't need a crew. And finally, putting the Core Computer asleep puts the ship to sleep, too.

Shadow Wake Up Call- So the Shadows know where all their buried ships are, right? Wounder why they have not been digging them up for years?

My suspicion is that they were buried there to wait for an activation call to free themselves and fly off to where ever they were supposed to go. In both of these cases, they got triggered early.

Dumb Idea-Er, so, who had the idea to send Bob into the Shadow Ship in the first place? Like ''ok Bob you just go inside this ancient alien super powerful ship and take control of it, it should only take you like ten seconds, we will go wait in the bunker."

Why is that a dumb idea? It's ruthless, but it's essentially a "We've done all we can for now, so send someone in and see what happens". Okay, it is a bit arrogant and potentially careless, but again if they've done everything else they can think of it's worth the try and then hope that you don't all get wiped out by it going berserk.

Two Standard Gravitates? Standard by what? Standard Earth Gravity?

Standard Temperature? Again, by what standard?

I assume that the major worlds got together and formed some kind of interstellar standard, like we have for many things today.

Surprise: The EAS Agamemnon, Sheridan's old ship, just happens to have the exciting ''Jupiter Guard Duty Job''. What a coincidence.

Or perhaps not. Clark is probably suspicious of Sheridan at this point, and thus can't entirely trust his old crew either. Keeping them close to home allows the loyal EA forces to keep an eye on them and limit the damage they can do.

Odd Awkwardness: Kinda weird that the Captain of the Agamemnon (whoever he is) just says ''we are the Agamemnon'' and does not say ''This is Captain Jack Reynolds''.

Why? We're used to that sort of thing from Star Trek, but identifying yourself as an EA ship is far more meaningful than saying who the captain is most of the time.

[factotum]

Why? We're used to that sort of thing from Star Trek, but identifying yourself as an EA ship is far more meaningful than saying who the captain is most of the time.

In fact, in real life the commander of a ship will often describe himself as "<name of ship> actual" when communicating with other ships, for the reason you say here; it's far more useful to know what ship is communicating with you than what person.

[Darth Ultron]

Rewatching this, there are a couple of things that don't make sense in retrospect. Firstly, we know that Earthforce are covertly working with the Shadows, so why are they hiding this Shadow ship? Secondly, why are there two buried Shadow vessels in Sol system in the first place? The previous Shadow war took place while we were only just coming out of the Dark Ages, you have to wonder why they had so much interest in us that they sent ships here, especially when they sent so many they could apparently lose two without noticing!

They are hiding the ship from the Shadows as they don't want to give it back. They want to take it apart and study it and make living death ships for Earth(and they do.....)

A Solar System is more then big enough for two ships. It can make sense for lots of reasons, like you have them hide in pairs. And the Sol system was a good ''out of the way place'' 1,000 years ago.

You absolutely can.. IF you are willing to pay for it. Its not that it CAN'T be done. But it can't be done cheaply. Earth Force doesn't want to pay that much.

My Paternal Grandmother remarried before I was born, so my Dad and I had a step-father/step-grandfather on that side of the family, along with all the other relatives that come along. And they were/are a navy family,withe every male who could going career. And the always did say that after a week or so fresh food became an issue (es. for those on subs).

B5 is not a ''Sub''. It's a Space Station full...full...of traders, merchants and travelers. And Earth is only a Two Day jump, so that is ''not too far''. And, we'd assume ''other places that have human colonies'' might be even closer then ''two days''. So, Trader Bob goes to Wal Mart in Earthspace and buys a dozen eggs(using 2017 money here) for 99 cents (my Wal Mart has then a 38 cents) as he is All Ready heading to B5 on a ''normal trade duty'' for Intergalactic UPS or is just a cool, independent Space Trucker. So sure, after his ''long and hard two day trip'' he wants to mark up the eggs to make some money. So big deal, he sells a dozen eggs for $5.99. Well if your ''trapped'' on B5, and you want eggs, you pay the ''5 credits'' or whatever and buy them. It's like when it's Sunday Night and everything is closed, but you want mustard on your hot dog...you go to the only place that is open: The Quick-E-Mart and pay $5 for a bottle of mustard. Or like the people that live in Alaska or Hawaii and how they pay more for stuff...but it is not like they can never get fresh food in those places.

I assume that the major worlds got together and formed some kind of interstellar standard, like we have for many things today.

Wonder what they based it all on?

Why? We're used to that sort of thing from Star Trek, but identifying yourself as an EA ship is far more meaningful than saying who the captain is most of the time.

Well, even B5 does the ''This is Captain John Smith of the EAS Zeus'' most of the time.....

In fact, in real life the commander of a ship will often describe himself as "<name of ship> actual" when communicating with other ships, for the reason you say here; it's far more useful to know what ship is communicating with you than what person.

This is way too Real Life for a TV show. But they sure did this a lot on Battlestar Glatactia.

[Knaight]

B5 is not a ''Sub''. It's a Space Station full...full...of traders, merchants and travelers. And Earth is only a Two Day jump, so that is ''not too far''. And, we'd assume ''other places that have human colonies'' might be even closer then ''two days''. So, Trader Bob goes to Wal Mart in Earthspace and buys a dozen eggs(using 2017 money here) for 99 cents (my Wal Mart has then a 38 cents) as he is All Ready heading to B5 on a ''normal trade duty'' for Intergalactic UPS or is just a cool, independent Space Trucker. So sure, after his ''long and hard two day trip'' he wants to mark up the eggs to make some money. So big deal, he sells a dozen eggs for $5.99. Well if your ''trapped'' on B5, and you want eggs, you pay the ''5 credits'' or whatever and buy them. It's like when it's Sunday Night and everything is closed, but you want mustard on your hot dog...you go to the only place that is open: The Quick-E-Mart and pay $5 for a bottle of mustard. Or like the people that live in Alaska or Hawaii and how they pay more for stuff...but it is not like they can never get fresh food in those places.

Other human colonies may well also be growing their food locally. I'd generally disagree with the focus on distance that's shown up so much in this thread, mostly because it's one part of a bigger picture. It doesn't take two days to transport a given volume of stuff to Babylon 5 - it takes 2 Ship-Volume-Days. Meanwhile transport on a planet likely takes Truck-Volume-Days and Train-Volume-Days and Seaship-Volume-Days. Given how much food people need feeding a station involves a lot of Ship-Volume-Days, and those are potentially a pretty limited resource. This is without getting into the complications of gravity wells (energy appears to be cheap and drives reactionless), atmosphere (where dedicated atmospheric craft potentially make ship loading suck), or the loading and unloading process.

[tomandtish]

And don't forget that it is pretty obvious Earth Force is going to nitpick money. They were going to kick the Captain out of his quarters over 7 square feet.

To put it in our terms, I suspect aren't talking $5.99 for a dozen eggs, but $25.99 for a dozen eggs. And there are probably a few bigwigs who do spend the money to get the fresh stuff. But for most people? Nope.

[Darth Ultron]

Point of No Return

B5 is ordered under martial law, and Nightwatch makes a play for control of security. The momentum built up by Messages from Earth continues here, in the episode that lends the season its title: The Point of No Return.

Look How It Is- Lady Morella is, of course, Majel Barrett-Roddenberry, wife of Gene Roddenberry; Nurse Chapel on the original Star Trek, Lwaxana Troi on Star Trek: The Next Generation, as well as for being the voice of most onboard computer interfaces throughout the Star Trek series. And lots of other roles too.

The transition of Londo and Vir just being themselves, and opening the door to the chaos is a nice bit.

A nine system alert? Wonder what nine systems make up the Earth Alliance?

This episode has a great Garibaldi moment where he can't just do nothing. Garibaldi storms in in a black rage and makes a huge scene about Nightwatch taking over. He tries to use his connections with his personnel to get them to refuse to give in to Nightwatch, but no one is brave enough. He particularly lets Zack have it, asking Zack if this is what Zack wanted all along - command of security.

This also is a great Zack episode.

And G'Kar too...

Well, this episode makes it clear that B5 security is part of the Military chain of command, and is not a civilian organization.

The Episode never says but Lady Morela has the gift of Real Prophecy. Just a thought, but I'll be it is another Vorlon gift.

Things that don't Make Sense

Why would Vir not know the consort ''me'' thing? It seems like normal Centari royal stuff.

Guess it was a tense moment and all, but should not have the Nightwatch Stormtroopers have demanded that Garibaldi surrender his PPG when they revealed him of duty?

Wonder why B5 security does not have tasers or stun guns or anything like that? Or even the ear hurting noise we saw just a couple episodes ago.

A link has a rewind button, a play button, a fast forward button and a stop button....just to play back videos? Seems like a bit much to have on a link.

Nightwatch Stormtrooper guy does not know how many Narms are on the ship...but Zack said a couple hundred right to the guys face, did he forget?

The bit of prophecy ''one will be Emperor once the other is dead'' is played for laughs....but obviously as they both will be Emperor, it won't take place at least until one of them gets the crown. And really as Londo is at least ''50 ish'' and Vir is more like ''20 ish'', it's not so hard to see that in say ''30 years'' Londo would be dead and Vir could be Emperor.




Final-A One of the Best Episodes of the show. Londo, Vir, Sheridan, G'Kar, Garibaldi and Zack all get great moments. Sheridan is still, just barely and by the skin of his teeth, able to avoid taking an irrevocable step in this episode. For one last time, he is able to play the part of the dutiful Earthforce captain while rebelling against his orders. His solution to the Night Watch dilemma recalls Sinclair's greatest strength, as he finds a way to ultimately reject the order while staying within the rules As Susan points out at the episode's end, Sheridan's ploy here is just another delaying action; within a few days, the loophole Sheridan wiggles through in this episode will be closed, leaving him with the same order and no legal way to reject it. Though he wins temporarily, the feeling he is left with is one of defeat. But then comes the next episode....

[tomandtish]

A nine system alert? Wonder what nine systems make up the Earth Alliance?

More than nine actually. Sol, Proxima, Orion, Vega, Deneb, Arisia, Regula, Ceti (presumably Cetus), Cyrus, Janus, Jericho, Wolf, and Ross, and those are just ones specifically named in the show.

A link has a rewind button, a play button, a fast forward button and a stop button....just to play back videos? Seems like a bit much to have on a link.

My Fitbit Blaze can do that with music now, and I THINK the iWatch can do it with video. Doesn't surprise me at all.

The bit of prophecy ''one will be Emperor once the other is dead'' is played for laughs....but obviously as they both will be Emperor, it won't take place at least until one of them gets the crown. And really as Londo is at least ''50 ish'' and Vir is more like ''20 ish'', it's not so hard to see that in say ''30 years'' Londo would be dead and Vir could be Emperor.

Played a bit of both ways. They laugh because it is preposterous (to both of them) to think that Vir would ever end up on the throne. He's not Londo's relative, so Londo would have to have no living heirs for hm to even be considered.

Which is where the serous part comes in. We've seen that Centauri politics can be rough.And Londo "knows" how he is going to die. And he knows that Vir is soft on Narns. Not totally out of the realm of possibility that Vir might make a deal. It's that tiny nagging "what if" for Londo. And for Vir, he knows enough about how the game is played to know that IF Londo is having any concerns, the best defense is a good offense.

It's actually very well played.It takes things we know about both characters and gives them believable reactions. Disbelief and ridicule at the thought, but wit a hint of "But what if..."

[factotum]

And Londo "knows" how he is going to die.

Does he? He's had a couple of prophecies, true, but I don't recall either of them saying in so many words how he would die.

[HandofShadows]

No, Lando does know how and roughly when he will die. It's an ability that some of his species has. They can see the moment of their death.

Spoiler

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He has a vision of him and G'kar strangling each other to death. And it happens just has his vision but he circumstances are vastly different then he could have imagined when he had the vision.

[tomandtish]

More importantly

Spoiler

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In his dream/vision, he is emperor. So he knows at least part of her prophecy is true.

[Thufir]

I always got the impression Londo's reluctance to become Emperor was specifically to avoid that death which he'd foreseen.

[tomandtish]

I always got the impression Londo's reluctance to become Emperor was specifically to avoid that death which he'd foreseen.

Partially, but also to avoid the destruction of the Centauri capital city that comes along at the same time. Part of his vision shows the destruction of the city (he may think it is more widespread).

Spoiler: Legions of Fire trilogy spoiler

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Note: This is NOT the destruction caused by the Alliance bombing, but rather Drakh bombs set off in the city shortly before Londo's death, as described in "Out of the Darkness" (book 3 of Legions of Fire and canon material).

[factotum]

Spoiler: Legions of Fire trilogy spoiler

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Note: This is NOT the destruction caused by the Alliance bombing, but rather Drakh bombs set off in the city shortly before Londo's death, as described in "Out of the Darkness" (book 3 of Legions of Fire and canon material).

Hmmm...sounds like a bit of a retcon to explain why there are still fires burning 20-odd years after the attack on Centauri Prime.