Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Darth Ultron]

Rumors, Bargains and Lies

Delenn contacts Neroon to make a covert plan to end the strife on Minbar. Sheridan tricks the Non-Aligned Worlds into being protected.

Sheridan picks the easy way to get things done: Manipulation :)

Things that don't Make Sense

*I wonder if the prophecies of Valen(Sinclar) just stop in 2260, or did he predict anything after that...like the Minbari Civil War, because that would seem like an obvious thing to happen.

*Wonder why Deleen does not say something to the Religious Caste Folks like ''don't worry'' when she first comes on board? It might have saved a bit of trouble.

*Wonder why the Religious Caste Folk think it is bad for the Religious Caste to not to Win the War? Do none of them get the idea that one one caste should lead...you know like the Grey Council did?

*Ivonava makes a bit of a deal about ''planting a story'', but ''news'' in general is not exactly puer, wholesome and unbiased.

*The Narns have the White Star Fleet on their borders too...but it oddly gets forgotten about.

*Guess Lenear did not have time to check the OSHA manual for the proper PPE to wear when dealing with Deadly Space Drive Residue. You'd think he would be smart enough to do that.

*Well, maybe Deleen is distracted with worry and a lot on her mind...but really Lenear's story is really bad.

*Wonder where Ivonava got ''scattered reports about fighting on Minbar'' from? Come to think of it...are there not like a TON of rangers on Minbar? And is not one of their primary missions the gathering of information?

*Sure is amazing Nerron sneaks past sick bays glass door just when Lenear is looking, so he can see him leave.

*Nerron zooms off, and sends his message via subspace? Sure it is just for us at home to hear...but you'd think this would be stuff you don't transmit.

*Wonder why Nerron does not have a War Flyer or something?

*So the Minbari cruiser is flying in normal space, and still a day away from Minbar....but they have to be close like ''in'' the Minbari Solar System, right? So how does Nerron fly like a couple feet away to a Jump Gate? Where is this Jump Gate?


Final- B, This episode cleverly set up two situations where groups of people without all the information speculated wildly and drew conclusions that may have fit the facts, but were incorrect. In the case of the religious caste members on Delenn's ship, their inaccurate conclusion nearly got them all killed. In the case of the Non-Aligned Worlds, Sheridan carefully set up the situation and "facts" to guide their speculation to an inaccurate conclusion that nonetheless will end up being beneficial to them. And Sheridan did not lie at all - he simply presented the facts in a certain way.

[factotum]

*I wonder if the prophecies of Valen(Sinclar) just stop in 2260, or did he predict anything after that...like the Minbari Civil War, because that would seem like an obvious thing to happen.

*Wonder why the Religious Caste Folk think it is bad for the Religious Caste to not to Win the War? Do none of them get the idea that one one caste should lead...you know like the Grey Council did?

- Sinclair has already gone back into the past. It might be obvious to the people of the present time that the dissolution of the Grey Council would lead to conflict, but that hadn't happened at the time he went and so he couldn't predict it. That's a large part of why Delenn is so worried--what made her certain was Valen's prophecies, and she's now in an unknown period beyond them.

- I imagine the Religious Caste don't want the warriors to win because they don't want to see Minbar become another Centauri Republic, just attacking and bombing people when they feel like it. I mean, there's no guarantee that a warrior victory would actually make that happen, but how do they know it won't?

Hey, I have a Babylon Five question

What is the space station like on the inside?

If that is what it is like on the inside, why do we not see it on the show? Is it just the budget? Like they could not afford a road and some trees?

Well, yes, in short. The interior scenes where we see the entire interior of the station are very obviously a matte painting. They do have some scenes in the "garden" (the one where Sinclair fell from the exploding tram car, for instance), but that's as much of the interior as they physically made.

It's worth noting that we never saw the long shots of the station interior in the earlier seasons, and that's probably because they hadn't decided Babylon 5 was quite as big as it turned out to be at that stage--remember Sinclair saying that the station was "two point five million tonnes of spinning metal" in the season 1 intro voiceovers? If you work it out, that's really not a lot of mass for a station five miles long! (To give you an idea, a solid iron cylinder 8km long and massing 2.5 million tonnes would be about 7m in diameter--imagine how thin the hull would have to be when you inflated that to the size of B5).

[Knaight]

Well, yes, in short. The interior scenes where we see the entire interior of the station are very obviously a matte painting. They do have some scenes in the "garden" (the one where Sinclair fell from the exploding tram car, for instance), but that's as much of the interior as they physically made.

There's definitely a large area dedicated to food production and similar, but whether it's the inside in general is a different question.

[tomandtish]

It's worth noting that we never saw the long shots of the station interior in the earlier seasons, and that's probably because they hadn't decided Babylon 5 was quite as big as it turned out to be at that stage--remember Sinclair saying that the station was "two point five million tonnes of spinning metal" in the season 1 intro voiceovers? If you work it out, that's really not a lot of mass for a station five miles long! (To give you an idea, a solid iron cylinder 8km long and massing 2.5 million tonnes would be about 7m in diameter--imagine how thin the hull would have to be when you inflated that to the size of B5).

To give you a weight comparison, the largest oil tankers carry about 500,000 deadweight* tons of oil. So the cargo of 5 of them equals the weight of B5 (allegedly).

*For those who may not know, Deadweight tonnage is how much weight the ship can carry. It doesn't include the weight of the ship itself.

The truth is, the weight of B5 is probably grossly low.

Yamato class battleships weighed 65,000 tons and were 864 feet long (bow to stern, not waterline) and 128 feet in width (beam).

So, 62 of them gives you substantially more than the weight, and covers the length twice, but you still haven't made up the width/depth.

You probably need at least three more zeros on the B5 weight.

[Darth Ultron]

Moments of Transition

Delenn brings the Minbari civil war to an end. Lyta and Garibaldi are manipulated by Bester.

Things that don't Make Sense

*A Seven Hour time difference between Mars and B5, seems a bit odd, but I guess this would really come up all the time when you are talking about planets and space stations across a galaxy.

*Wonder if Deleen knows John well enough to take a minute to send a ''i'm ok " message...

*So the warrior caste Minbari sound like they are shelling the capital city with 20th century mortars.

*So Lyta meets with a woman that is from Earth? That does a lot of business on B5 as part of a company? What about the blockade and embargo making it illegal to have anything to do with B5?

*And why does Lyta not look for work with any alien?

*So sure Sheridan and the others can live off the B5 taxes, but is there enough for the couple thousand on the command staff, security and med lab. And what about all them dock workers? B5 must have a huge budget, where does all that money come from?

*So why does Neroon and Shakiri move off to the side to talk about getting rid of Deleen? Like they don't want the other two warrior caste guy to hear them? Why not? Are they not all on the same side?

*Zack asking Lyta to scan Michael does make you wonder why others are not asking for other such telepathy such things. Sure Lyta does not trust the criminals...but what about everyone else?

*As Deleen quotes Valen, I'd guess this means no one knows about him, right?

Final- B, This plot is a satisfying end to the Minbari civil war, and it's really fits in with Minbari culture and Delenn's personality in particular. The plots involving Bester, Garibaldi, and Lyta involve more intrigue than the relatively straightforward Minbari plot. Sheridan has finally gotten mad enough at Clark's actions that he has decided to stop beating around the bush and finally go to war against Clark. From the episode, we can see at least some of what has been holding Sheridan back: the reluctance to fight against Earth Force.

[Knaight]

The truth is, the weight of B5 is probably grossly low.

The mass of B5 is utterly ridiculous, and I assume the definition of ton being used is of mass, particularly if tonne is canonical. Otherwise we get into its weight as determined by its own gravitational field, which also seems off (but I'm not doing that math).

We're looking at an 8000 m cylinder that weighs 2.5*10^9 kg. The density of air at 1 atm is 1.255 kg/m^3. Some quick math:
V=pi(r^2)L
m=V*rho
r=(m/(pi*L*rho)^0.5
r=(2.5*10^9/(pi*8*10^3*1.255)=281.5 meters.

As an aspect ratio, that works out to 28.4 times longer than it is wide. Meanwhile the station is clearly more like 5 times longer than wide by just looking at it, and while that's a rough estimate it's not off by a factor of 5.3 - and this is assuming that the station is exactly as light as air, a nice lower bound because of all the air on the station. If it's twice as heavy, the number is an order of magnitude too low.

Going back to intuition for a second, I suspect it's at least two orders of magnitude low because of this, and probably more like 3-4.

[tomandtish]

Yeah.

I might buy an order of magnitude with improvements in/discoveries of new materials. But at a minimum it should be weighing in the billions (and probably hundreds of billions) if not trillions of tons.

Incidentally, for a size comparison, Deep Space 9 is @1452 meters long (so about 9/10ths of a mile), and as 10.1 million metric tons (so about 11.1 million tons). And it is a lot less solid than B5.

[factotum]

*A Seven Hour time difference between Mars and B5, seems a bit odd, but I guess this would really come up all the time when you are talking about planets and space stations across a galaxy.

*So sure Sheridan and the others can live off the B5 taxes, but is there enough for the couple thousand on the command staff, security and med lab. And what about all them dock workers? B5 must have a huge budget, where does all that money come from?

*As Deleen quotes Valen, I'd guess this means no one knows about him, right?

- Surely the time difference between B5 and any planet would depend where on the planet you are? Also, the day on Mars is slightly longer than it is on Earth (24h 37m), so it's going to gradually go out of sync with B5 anyway, assuming B5 runs on a standard 24-hour clock.

- Rather than assuming they don't get enough money from the taxes to support all the required workers, and then complaining about that, why not assume they *do* get enough money from the taxes to do all that? There's nothing in the show to indicate otherwise, after all.

- I recall Delenn discussing Valen-as-Sinclair with someone else in an earlier episode, so there are at least some other Minbari who know the truth there--it's uncertain how many people do, though.

[Darth Ultron]

No Surrender, No Retreat

Sheridan begins the fight to take back Earth.

Things that don't Make Sense

*So Sheridan has the Big Meeting early in the morning...but why?

*Vir acts like Londo's meeting with G'Kar is some big secret, but why?

*Wonder what kind of planet Proxama Three is? Is it a Class M ''Earth like'' planet? If so, how are they ruining out of food and water?

*Wonder why all Earthforce ships have Greek names. Except that one Roman one.

*And why does everyone say the Hera-A-klees and not the more common American Herc-U-lees?

*Wonder why Marcus's ship is ''Whitestar Prime"?

*It is a Tv thing, but really is too bad that Marcus is the only person on his fully crewed ship with dozens of other people that could answer ''whitestar 99''s call.

*So some of the Earthforce ships have gone to ''great lengths '' to avoid shooting civilians.....so does this mean that have or have not killed civilians?

*I guess it is a bit of word play, but Captain Hull looks at a scan of a Whitestar and says ''ah, Sheridan's forces, I've never seen one". Well, how does he recognize them then?

*Looking out the window of Sheridin's Whitestar the Vesta looks to be like right in front of the whitestar and like 100 feet away?

*Wonder why the Herakles waited until they opened fire to launch their fighters...

The ''Vesta'' does not seem like a good name for a Warship too....

*Guess everyone on an Earthforce destroyer on the bridge is armed? Or is Commander Phisberry just an evil spy/plant?

*The battle is very one sided. Omega class destroyers can only shoot directly for and aft, and they have to aim the whole ship at a target. And Omega class destroyers have just about zero maneuverability. Whitestars can only shoot forward, and have to aim the whole ship...but at least they can maneuver like crazy. You'd think the Whitestars would just circle the middle of a destroyer and stay there. Like remember a couple epsiodes ago when the whitestars ''flew sideways'' around the Drac mothership.

*Just as Sheridin's ship passes the Furies, it gets rocked by turbulence and Markus is like ''that was the Vesta" and says ''they are locked on ready to fire''...then Mac stops the attack...but, um, did the Vesta all ready fire?

*The Whitestars fly right in front of an right at the Pollux....or more accurately right at the Pollux's Main Guns. And ones gets blown to bits. This is about the dumbest maneuver ever.

*We don't get to see the starfury fight...but with only ''some'' of B5's Starfuries....would not the blockade starfuries outnumber them like three to one...or more.

*So with the Shadow War over...there are hundreds, at least, of Minbari religious caste Whitestar crew members that are just...there, still? Does this seem right?

*Sheridin wants a ''clean fight''...except for all the Whitestar Minbari crew members. Does that not make the fight a bit ''dirty'' right there? Clack can say ''it is the evil Minbari War Syndrome whatever''....

*At just about the end Sheridan mentions the other Earthforce ships that have joined up with him....so, wonder why none of them came to help at Proximal Three?


Final- A, other then all the great action, There were some nice character scenes in the episode. After the Advisory Council meeting, Londo visited G'Kar's quarters. We're not sure what his purpose is at first, because he starts by revisiting "old times", such as G'Kar being imprisoned on Centauri Prime. This scene is extremely awkward - as it should be - with Londo starting out rather meekly and G'Kar hardly bothering to listen to him.

Garibaldi leaving the station is a very nice touch and nicely done...more so when you realize he is the last original cast member left of the Earth folks.

[factotum]

*Wonder what kind of planet Proxama Three is? Is it a Class M ''Earth like'' planet? If so, how are they ruining out of food and water?

*Wonder why all Earthforce ships have Greek names. Except that one Roman one.

*And why does everyone say the Hera-A-klees and not the more common American Herc-U-lees?

*So some of the Earthforce ships have gone to ''great lengths '' to avoid shooting civilians.....so does this mean that have or have not killed civilians?

*I guess it is a bit of word play, but Captain Hull looks at a scan of a Whitestar and says ''ah, Sheridan's forces, I've never seen one". Well, how does he recognize them then?

*The battle is very one sided. Omega class destroyers can only shoot directly for and aft, and they have to aim the whole ship at a target. And Omega class destroyers have just about zero maneuverability.
*The Whitestars fly right in front of an right at the Pollux....or more accurately right at the Pollux's Main Guns. And ones gets blown to bits. This is about the dumbest maneuver ever.

*So with the Shadow War over...there are hundreds, at least, of Minbari religious caste Whitestar crew members that are just...there, still? Does this seem right?
*At just about the end Sheridan mentions the other Earthforce ships that have joined up with him....so, wonder why none of them came to help at Proximal Three?

- As I said earlier, make assumptions that fit the show. If Proxima 3 are running out of food and water then they perforce must import a lot of it, so the planet is clearly barely habitable at best. The odd thing then is why Earth bothered to colonise the place if it's that poor a fit, but it might be the only place that's available!

- They don't? Remember the EAS Churchill from "Severed Dreams", or the "Excalibur", or "Roanoke"? Also, most of the planets and moons in our solar system are named after Greek or Roman mythological figures despite them being discovered recently, so it's not like this is unusual.

- Because Earthforce is not American and has no reason to name things in American style?

- "Gone to great lengths to avoid firing on civilians" could be interpreted either way, but I think it's rather more likely that those ships simply have *not* fired on civilians, or else how would the rebels know they'd avoided firing on them?

- You seriously don't think that there aren't posters all over Earthdome with pictures of Whitestars saying "THESE ARE YOUR ENEMY"? When he says he hasn't seen one he means he hasn't seen one in real life, not that he's literally never seen one.

- Yeah, I mostly agree there. Omegas do seem to have point defence turrets on the top which can fire sideways, and those red hatches you can see along the sides are actually supposed to cover missile tubes, but we never see an Omega use its missiles in the show--they might be designed for planetary bombardment and thus wouldn't be useful against a small target like another ship. (In reality, of course, budget and time constraints prevented the SFX team ever showing those missiles being fired).

- They need the crews to fly the ships, whether they're Minbari or otherwise, and they don't have enough ships to perform an operation like this without using the White Stars. That also explains why those Earthforce ships Sheridan mentioned didn't go to Proxima 3, because he really didn't want to lose them at this early stage--he knows he's eventually going to attack Earth, and he can't do that with alien ships or else all the nasty propaganda Clark is spreading about him will appear to be confirmed. This is why, when he eventually *does* attack Earth, he leaves Delenn and her Minbari cruisers behind at Mars until they're desperately needed.

[Darth Ultron]

- They don't? Remember the EAS Churchill from "Severed Dreams", or the "Excalibur", or "Roanoke"? Also, most of the planets and moons in our solar system are named after Greek or Roman mythological figures despite them being discovered recently, so it's not like this is unusual.

But that is the point, why not mix the names up a bit more?

- Because Earthforce is not American and has no reason to name things in American style?

It is an American TV show though.

- You seriously don't think that there aren't posters all over Earthdome with pictures of Whitestars saying "THESE ARE YOUR ENEMY"? When he says he hasn't seen one he means he hasn't seen one in real life, not that he's literally never seen one.

Well, maybe not Earthdome...but sure all the military places. But then why does not Second in Command Lady say ''Captain silhouette matches a WhiteStar, the vile Minbari ships that Captain Sheridan commands!" instead of ''unknown"?

- Yeah, I mostly agree there. Omegas do seem to have point defence turrets on the top which can fire sideways, and those red hatches you can see along the sides are actually supposed to cover missile tubes, but we never see an Omega use its missiles in the show--they might be designed for planetary bombardment and thus wouldn't be useful against a small target like another ship. (In reality, of course, budget and time constraints prevented the SFX team ever showing those missiles being fired).

Most Omega destroyers don't have the top turrets though, so it must be an upgraded class (''Omega-B'' or such).

[Jallorn]

It is an American TV show though.

Hercules is the Roman, Latin name for Herakles, the Greek name. In my experience, people tend to be more familiar with the Greek names for the gods than the Latin ones. Under that status, it is technically more accurate to use the Greek name as well, especially since the point of it was that he was named in honor of Hera to try to appease her and get her to stop trying to ruin his life. This point is less relevant when the goddess is known as Juno instead.

JMS seems like the kind of person who would prefer the Greek name because he feels it is more accurate to the story, or at least makes for a better story when the guy is named for a goddess. Similarly, I might expect JMS to pronounce it Kerberos instead of Cerberus.

[Darth Ultron]

JMS seems like the kind of person who would prefer the Greek name because he feels it is more accurate to the story, or at least makes for a better story when the guy is named for a goddess. Similarly, I might expect JMS to pronounce it Kerberos instead of Cerberus.

You know soon we will see the Shadow Destroyers....I don't think we ever get names for them, but Cerberus would be a good one.

I'd also add the Abyss, Acheron (this is one right?), Hades, Pluto, Nox, Nyx, Erebus, Hecate, Tartarus, Orcus, and Aphopus.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• The Exercise of Vital Powers
• The Face of the Enemy
• Intersections in Real Time

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

The Exercise of Vital Powers: Garibaldi is still thinking Sheridan is attacking Clark due to a God complex. He's on Mars, going to meet William Edgars blindfolded. They meet, with Garibaldi asking Edgars to use his political clout to help get rid of Clark. Edgars says he needs to know he can trust Garibaldi first, so he has him kidnapped and interrogates him in the presence of a telepath--who gets shot for her trouble once the interview is over. Amongst other things, Edgars finds out Garibaldi is still in love with Lise. Next day, it turns out that Edgars' main objective is getting rid of telepaths, because he doesn't want to live in a world with no privacy. He's against Clark because Clark is passing more power to PsiCorps, and he believes Sheridan's attack is just giving him the excuse to turn PsiCorps into his own personal secret police, which he does not want to happen--so they need to get rid of Sheridan. Garibaldi eventually agrees to this (after a bit of a bust-up with Lise). We also see Edgars in a room with three ill people--apparently people he's given a drug to, and who he has euthanised since "We know the drug works, and I don't want to add more pain to the universe than is necessary".
Franklin is having trouble getting the Shadow-infused telepaths fixed, but he finds they react to Lyta, which is interesting, so he gets her to help him. The telepath she wakes up asks if the machines are gone, then tries to kill himself, so they have to put him back to sleep. It does give Franklin a method of neutralising the implants, though, which pleases Sheridan, because he needs it for his plan--a plan that leaves Franklin visibly shaken after being told what it is. He and Lyta must leave for Mars to carry out the plan, though.

Thoughts: A population of two million for the Mars colony seems low, considering how long it must have been there? We obviously know why Garibaldi is acting the way he is since we've seen what happens, but it was genuinely shocking first time around. The stuff about Sheridan's plan for the telepaths was also more interesting first time around.

The Face of the Enemy: Sheridan is finding that his opponents have been told they'll be executed and replaced with Minbari crews if they surrender, which one of his captains rapidly denies--oh, and his old ship the Agamemnon turns up, just as the message comes through that his father has been kidnapped. He goes to Mars to meet Garibaldi, only to be tranquilised and beaten up. ISN broadcast the news immediately. Meanwhile, Garibaldi is told that Edgars has engineered a virus that will only attack telepaths and which is only controllable by a drug he himself has created--the idea being that the telepaths will toe the line or else have their drugs withheld. Better telepaths as slaves than as masters, it seems! Lise has heard all of this and she tries to persuade Garibaldi to stop her husband, but he just tells her to go home. Shortly thereafter, Bester arrives. Apparently this was all part of his plan--he suborned Garibaldi using the same "replacement personality" trick that was used on Talia Winters, but this has worked so much better than he hoped. He debates whether to kill Garibaldi or release him, and eventually decides to release him. Garibaldi rushes back to Edgars' house and finds Edgars dead and Wade dying, with the virus gone--apparently Lise was not there when the place was attacked.
In the rebel base, Number One is furious that Franklin has brought Lyta and a bunch of frozen Shadow telepaths with him without telling her. Apparently people suspected of being in the Resistance are just picked up and scanned with no due process.
On B5, Ivanova is told Garibaldi has tried to contact them. She says if he appears on the station he should be shot on sight, and determines to finish the job Sheridan started.

Thoughts: These episodes are talking a lot about the inevitable war between telepaths and mundanes everyone can see coming, but I don't recall anything much like that happening during the series (apart from Byron and his merrie men)--was that a separate series JMS planned to make? Anyway, the denouement at the end of this episode was genuinely a gut punch first time around. Its impact is lessened with repetition, but you still have to admire Walter Koenig and Jerry Doyle absolutely knocking it out of the park.

Intersections in Real Time: This is basically an entire episode covering the interrogation and torture of Sheridan. No B plot, no light relief, just showing exactly how they're trying to break him and get him to betray his friends. It's powerful stuff which is not easy to describe, so I shall forgo my usual synopsis.

Thoughts: Just an incredible episode. The way they're playing with Sheridan's mind--it's not simple physical torture, this, as we saw back in "Comes the Inquisitor". Fun fact: one of the guys we see talking to Sheridan's interrogator is series consultant Harlan Ellison.

[tomandtish]

*Wonder what kind of planet Proxama Three is? Is it a Class M ''Earth like'' planet? If so, how are they ruining out of food and water?

- As I said earlier, make assumptions that fit the show. If Proxima 3 are running out of food and water then they perforce must import a lot of it, so the planet is clearly barely habitable at best. The odd thing then is why Earth bothered to colonise the place if it's that poor a fit, but it might be the only place that's available!

More importantly, remember Proxima Three is also a resistance site and we've heard several reports of it being bombed by Clark's forces, and relief convoys being attacked and destroyed. It's quite believable that whatever food supplies it can normally produce have been destroyed. And remember, it's a colony, not necessarily a fully occupied planet.

*And why does everyone say the Hera-A-klees and not the more common American Herc-U-lees?

Born and raised in the USA and I always say Heracles unless pronouncing a title that clearly intended it to be pronounced the other way (Disney's Hercules, for example).

Thoughts: These episodes are talking a lot about the inevitable war between telepaths and mundanes everyone can see coming, but I don't recall anything much like that happening during the series (apart from Byron and his merrie men)--was that a separate series JMS planned to make? Anyway, the denouement at the end of this episode was genuinely a gut punch first time around. Its impact is lessened with repetition, but you still have to admire Walter Koenig and Jerry Doyle absolutely knocking it out of the park.

it was always going to be either a later series or a movie (JMS has gone back and forth on this). I believe it was briefly a series idea, then pitched as a movie. However it never got off the ground. The closest you get is the Psi-Corp trilogy, and even that doesn't cover the war as such. Two novels precede it and one deals with Bester's POV afterwards.

[The New Bruceski]

Intersections in Real Time: This is basically an entire episode covering the interrogation and torture of Sheridan. No B plot, no light relief, just showing exactly how they're trying to break him and get him to betray his friends. It's powerful stuff which is not easy to describe, so I shall forgo my usual synopsis.

Thoughts: Just an incredible episode. The way they're playing with Sheridan's mind--it's not simple physical torture, this, as we saw back in "Comes the Inquisitor". Fun fact: one of the guys we see talking to Sheridan's interrogator is series consultant Harlan Ellison.

Ah, the 1984 episode. Some powerful stuff here.

[Darth Ultron]

The Exercise of Vital Powers

Garibaldi meets William Edgars on Mars and gets tested. Franklin tries to heal the frozen telepaths.

*Edgars talks about the War of Information and Secrets when talking about telepaths.....but it is sure interesting how much that is true in 2017. Just replace ''internet'' with ''telepaths"....

*Wonder what the Jihad Party in B5 history was?

*The B5 Mega-Corps control the world? And ''people would not understand?" Interesting....and again, very prophetic.

Things that don't Make Sense

*So, it is a Standard TV set up...and a Silly Way to get Lyta into Med Lab for No Good Reason...other then to advance the plot.....but how/why does Lyta go looking for Zack and find him in Med-Lab? So like Zack leaves a massage for Lyta...then she goes to security and someone says ''he went to med lab'' and then she runs down here to meet him?

*The same thing happens later...like Doc Franklin just ''bumps'' into Lyta...

*Kinda weird that Doc Franklin says the telepaths are ''Lyta's people'', as if they are not human or something.

*Wonder how Miss Constance knows to wait until Garibaldi leaves the room to indicate if he was lying about the love question.

*So does Lyta telekinetic hold the shadow guys arms or is she like telepaticaly blocking his minds motor functions? And why does she take so long...several seconds...to put the guy to sleep?

*It is another Classic TV thing...but really why does not Doc Franklin just go somewhere private instead of clearing Med Lab to take the Private Call from Sheridan?

*Garibaldi mentions a home on Io...do people really ''live'' on Io? Or is Garibaldi just being silly?

*18 light years? It is only 18 light years from Mars to B5? And we know that is only two days of hyperspace travel....makes B5 feel so ''close''.

Final C, The two plot lines in this episode both involve telepaths and Mars, which is a nice convergence. Edgars may be trying to get rid of telepaths, while Sheridan is planning to use them somehow. What does the Psi Corps have planned? Perhaps something with Garibaldi. It's ironic that Garibaldi left B5 to get away from Sheridan's campaign and now it seems the Sheridan's campaign is following him right to Mars.

[factotum]

*So does Lyta telekinetic hold the shadow guys arms or is she like telepaticaly blocking his minds motor functions? And why does she take so long...several seconds...to put the guy to sleep?

*Garibaldi mentions a home on Io...do people really ''live'' on Io? Or is Garibaldi just being silly?

*18 light years? It is only 18 light years from Mars to B5? And we know that is only two days of hyperspace travel....makes B5 feel so ''close''.

- I don't think we've ever seen telepaths show any sort of telekinetic abilities in B5, have we (apart from that one who turned into a ghost thing, a long time ago)? It seems to be purely reading the mind.

- The main jumpgate in Sol system orbits Io, and therefore it's a pretty busy place both militarily and as a civilian way-station. So, people are there, and they need places to live, so yes, there are homes on Io. Quite why Earthforce chose to build the jumpgate there (after deactivating the one the Centauri built in Earth orbit for security reasons) is never made entirely clear.

- And it's only 12 light years from B5 to Narn (as we learned in a season 1 episode), so those two planets are at most 30 light years apart. It does all seem a bit close together, especially when you consider how many alien races are represented in the B5 universe--also, this suggests it must take the Techno-Mages and the First Ones an absolute age to go "beyond the Rim", considering it's a good 17,000 light years from Earth to the edge of the galaxy!

[Darth Ultron]

- I don't think we've ever seen telepaths show any sort of telekinetic abilities in B5, have we (apart from that one who turned into a ghost thing, a long time ago)? It seems to be purely reading the mind.

Guess you forgot about Ironheart and Taila?

Quite why Earthforce chose to build the jumpgate there (after deactivating the one the Centauri built in Earth orbit for security reasons) is never made entirely clear.

We know. Somewhere, someone said it is for Security. Basically so an evil alien fleet can'y just 'pop' out and attack Earth.

[factotum]

Guess you forgot about Ironheart and Taila?

We know. Somewhere, someone said it is for Security. Basically so an evil alien fleet can'y just 'pop' out and attack Earth.

Pretty sure Ironheart is who I meant when I said the telepath who turned into the ghost thing? Definitely don't remember Talia doing any telekinetic stuff, though, you're right there.

As for the second point, I know they built the gate out there because it was more secure than having one in Earth orbit, but why Io in particular? It's one of the least hospitable places in the Solar System, what with the constant volcanism. Even if it had to be Jupiter there are better moons to choose, surely?

[Rodin]

Pretty sure Ironheart is who I meant when I said the telepath who turned into the ghost thing? Definitely don't remember Talia doing any telekinetic stuff, though, you're right there.

As for the second point, I know they built the gate out there because it was more secure than having one in Earth orbit, but why Io in particular? It's one of the least hospitable places in the Solar System, what with the constant volcanism. Even if it had to be Jupiter there are better moons to choose, surely?

Talia got telepathy as the "gift" Ironheart gave her. It never really became relevant as I recall, because of her premature departure from the series. The gift was replaced by Lyta's Vorlon enhancements.

[factotum]

Talia got telepathy as the "gift" Ironheart gave her.

I think you mean telekinesis--Talia was already a telepath.

[tomandtish]

- The main jumpgate in Sol system orbits Io, and therefore it's a pretty busy place both militarily and as a civilian way-station. So, people are there, and they need places to live, so yes, there are homes on Io. Quite why Earthforce chose to build the jumpgate there (after deactivating the one the Centauri built in Earth orbit for security reasons) is never made entirely clear.

Actually, they didn't deactivate it, they moved it. The on at Io IS the one Centauri helped them build at Earth. The general suspicion is that it is the only one usable by alien ships.

However, based on comments by JMS, there may be others in the system. There are several times in interviews he refers to it as the system's primary jumpgate.

[Darth Ultron]

The Face of the Enemy

Garibaldi betrays Sheridan and then William Edgars.


The 30 pieces of silver a great line

I all ways liked the capture scene, I think it is well done, the scene is very surreal, with the camera angles, slow motion, and lighting evoking the drugged perception that Sheridan must have. He fights, but in the end he can't overcome 6-to-1 odds.


Things that don't Make Sense

*So Captain Mac is at the battle on the Vesta....but they are not fighting?

*Of course the White Stars again fly right in front of the Earthforce Destroyers so they can be fired upon.

*Sure there is a hole in the security force.....but I think thirty some telepaths in cryo tubes is a LOT to smuggle in....

*Sheridan does not want people to think the Minbari war is happening all over again...by taking a huge fleet of Minbari ships with Minbari crews to Earth.....

*Deleen, again, will take command of B5?

*So Bester says there are several million telepaths...well, that is a lot more then the ''tiny bit'' we often see and hear about.

*All the Destroyers suddenly have top mounted pulse cannons...but they did not just a couple episodes ago. Guess someone updated the computer image model.


Final B, This episode had a major pay-off: what's been going with Garibaldi. The explanation is hugely satisfying, since it fits in with all the pieces that we've been getting in episodes all season.

[factotum]

*Sheridan does not want people to think the Minbari war is happening all over again...by taking a huge fleet of Minbari ships with Minbari crews to Earth.....

*Deleen, again, will take command of B5?

- He doesn't take the Minbari ships with Minbari crews to Earth, he leaves them nearby in case they're needed but explicitly wants to keep them out of the final battle. That's the main reason he's trying to get these Earthforce ships to change sides!

- Yes, which is perfectly OK, as we said before? Who else do you think would be better placed to do that--Zack? Corwin, maybe?

[Darth Ultron]

Intersections in Real Time


Sheridan is tortured to obtain his cooperation with President Clark.

This episode sure is a ''Bottle Show''.

So the torture guy does make one think. Now, sure, as President Clark is Evil, you would expect him to have such a guy in his employ. But it does make you wonder, as the guy is at least thirty and sure does seem like a full time, professional interrogator. So as Clark has only been in power a couple years....this would mean that the interrogation guy has been around for years working for the government. But what about past Good Presidents? They would not keep the interrogator guy around, right? Or would they? Would there be this Dark, Shadow Deep State no matter who is in charge?
So does this mean the writer, JMS himself, is saying that the ''deep government'' all ways exists, no matter what? Do ''they'' stay around, no matter who gets elected and is in charge?
And what, if anything, happens to the guy after the episode Endgame? Does he just stay in the dark, deep state?

Things that don't Make Sense

*The Interrogator talks about ''the world''. What ''world''? Just Earth? Kinda odd as Earthlings live on many worlds.
*The Interrogator talks about the ''office''. Like working in an ''office''? Seems a bit of an odd thing to say.
*So Earthforce blames Sheridan for all the deaths of the whole crew of the Roanoke? Wonder why they stop there? They could charge him with a lot of more deaths. The crew of the Pollux, for example.

Final- B, This episode is a masterful display of manipulation. Sheridan is manipulated physically, psychologically, and with information in order to get him to "break" and confess his "crimes" against Clark's government. The lack of information on the other characters and plots in the series mirrors Sheridan's lack of information of what is happening in the outside world.

[tomandtish]

Intersections in Real Time

So the torture guy does make one think. Now, sure, as President Clark is Evil, you would expect him to have such a guy in his employ. But it does make you wonder, as the guy is at least thirty and sure does seem like a full time, professional interrogator. So as Clark has only been in power a couple years....this would mean that the interrogation guy has been around for years working for the government. But what about past Good Presidents? They would not keep the interrogator guy around, right? Or would they? Would there be this Dark, Shadow Deep State no matter who is in charge?
So does this mean the writer, JMS himself, is saying that the ''deep government'' all ways exists, no matter what? Do ''they'' stay around, no matter who gets elected and is in charge?
And what, if anything, happens to the guy after the episode Endgame? Does he just stay in the dark, deep state?

He may have been working for Clark specifically all that time. Clark has only been president a short time (and VP before that) but it is safe to assume he is a career politician, so may have had people willing to do these things working for him for quite a while. T

[Darth Ultron]

He may have been working for Clark specifically all that time. Clark has only been president a short time (and VP before that) but it is safe to assume he is a career politician, so may have had people willing to do these things working for him for quite a while. T

Yea, but did Little 18 year old Billy Clark, Earthdome Page Intern, create ''enhanced interrogation" in his spare time? Most likely not....

So this is more of a shadow government thing...sort of unofficial, but the people in power know it exists. So ''Bob" is just file clerk for the IRS...as a cover, but is really an enhanced interrogation specialist.

Like say the Deep State type government in shows like the X-files.

And after all, the ''Knights'' that interrogated Sinclar were part of the ''good president Santago'' government...right?

[bguy]

Intersections in Real Time

Sheridan is tortured to obtain his cooperation with President Clark.

What I never understood about this episode is why is Clark even using the interrogators. EarthGov has the ability to mindwipe a person and completely rewrite their personality, so why not use the Death of Personality mindwipe technique to rewrite Sheridan to be the pro-Clark, anti-alien mouthpiece that Clark wants? And even if the Death of Personality technique itself is unsuitable for what Clark needs (say if it can't be used without completely overwriting Sheridan's original personality and thus making it obvious he's been mind wiped), Psi Corps also clearly has techniques they can use that can brainwash a person while leaving their personality sufficiently intact (whatever they did to Garibaldi), so why not use one of those methods instead. It certainly seems like telepathically brainwashing Sheridan would be a lot quicker and more reliable than trying to break him through torture.

And by the same token why didn't Clark also have Psi Corps telepaths pry every military secret Sheridan had out of his head? The whole telepath trojan horse operation on Mars would have been compromised if Clark had done so, and it just doesn't make sense that he would use telepaths to scan for suspected rebels but wouldn't bother doing so on the captured leader of the rebellion.