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  1. - Top - End - #781
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

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    Fun facts about the Governess taking care of the kids.

    She's Refa's daughter!
    Senna(that's her name) got her job after throwing a rock at Londo's head two years after the first bombing of Centuari prime(he admired her spirit).
    She later married Vir Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post

    *So Ellis was a speechwriter for Clark and a member of his party....like political party? Wonder what party? Was Clark a Democrat?
    Not sure why this doesn't make sense. We know there are elections which presumably means political disagreements. It would be more surprising if there weren't parties (even if they weren't called parties as such).
    Naming any of the politicians democrat, republican or any real world political party would just have been a huge can of worms that they didn't need to deal with.

    Clark was a nationalistic, isolationists xenophobe who arrested, imprisoned and or executed his critics. And attempted to Project Cinder the earth rather then have it survive beyond his presidency. He belonged solely to the Clark party any other claims during his campaigning as vice president and before were simply a masquerade.
    Calling him Republican or Democrat in show would easily distract from the narrative and undermine views of said parties ability to enjoy the show.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  2. - Top - End - #782
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - Have you forgotten the poker game where Londo cheated by using his...er...unmentionables to pick up cards from the other side of the table?
    But that is my point...that was way back in the First Season. You don't wait to the end of Season 4

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - Earth wasn't abandoned, as we can see by the fact there are secret Rangers working towards rebuilding the planet. If you're asking "Why don't they just bring ships and men to rebuild the place?", I would assume it's because they're not sure of how they'll be received--we know from the previous scene that at least some of Earth's population were so against the Alliance that they were actively trying to dismantle it from the inside.
    But ok, what about the billion or so people in the Solar System? Space stations, moonbases, Io, Mars... And the whole Earth Alliance of 20 some planets....oh, plus all the aliens.

    Like say New York city ''blew up''....would the rest of America just sit back and be like ''well only the Secret Rangers'' can help them, or would like Boston send aid....

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - We only ever saw three types of hyperspace travel used in the series that I recall? The regular jumpgate, the weird lightning-filled thing the aliens of Sigma 957 used on their first appearance, and the Shadows' ability to phase in and out of hyperspace. Certainly the Shadows and the Vorlons never seemed to have any super-speed travel system.
    The Quantum Drive is from B5's Lost Tales.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Not sure why this doesn't make sense. We know there are elections which presumably means political disagreements. It would be more surprising if there weren't parties (even if they weren't called parties as such).
    Well, the whole show has avoided politics and things like political parties. And sure if JMS wrote anything as he is One Of Them, he would write very bias things were his personal politics were not only perfect, but also the choice of all the main characters heroes(except, of course, Galaibaldi as him and Jerry did not get along plotioticaly).

    And it is odd that politics has a lot to do with the show...but we don't really know all that much about Earth politics. Are there political parties? Is Earthgov just like the American 20th century government? I would seem 2260 ish Earth has no Government Universal Healthcare, like most of the world...except America does. And so on.

    It is just sudden to find at the end of season 4 ''boom political parties''.

  3. - Top - End - #783
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    And it is odd that politics has a lot to do with the show...but we don't really know all that much about Earth politics. Are there political parties? Is Earthgov just like the American 20th century government? I would seem 2260 ish Earth has no Government Universal Healthcare, like most of the world...except America does. And so on.

    It is just sudden to find at the end of season 4 ''boom political parties''.
    The very first episode of the show involved a close presidential election between two major candidates. That certainly suggests a party system was in place.

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - The Narn have only just freed themselves from Centauri slavery, it takes time to build up a fleet and become a big player on the interstellar stage. By the time of the main series 15 years later they've only just got to the point where they feel capable of raiding the Centauri directly.
    You can add to that the fact that they were occupied by the Shadows during the last war. Of the major powers, the Narn are the least developed. They really aren't that much ahead of humans, and only because they had earlier access to at least some level of Centauri tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - She was voted out of power sometime in the 15 years between this movie and the main series, as you'd expect to happen.
    She's Elizabeth Levy, and according to Across Time and Space: The Chronologies of Babylon 5, she chose not to run for re-election for 2253. Santiago ran and won. He was therefore running for re-election in 2258. Note that a president has a FIVE year term, with elections held in February of every 3rd and 8th year of the decade. What we don't know is if there are term limits, so we don't know how long she was president. (Although since she was apparently president for the entire Minbari war she would have had to won re-election at least once).
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

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  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    But ok, what about the billion or so people in the Solar System? Space stations, moonbases, Io, Mars... And the whole Earth Alliance of 20 some planets....oh, plus all the aliens.

    Like say New York city ''blew up''....would the rest of America just sit back and be like ''well only the Secret Rangers'' can help them, or would like Boston send aid....
    The Dominate faction on earth sought to withdrawal from the ISA and destroy the Earth Colonies and nations loyal to the ISA.
    Much surviving population became technophobes following The Great Burn distrusting science and advanced technology so it has to be slowly reintroduced along with a less xenophobic earth first and kill everyone else philosophy.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    - This is why Londo described Lefcourt as "Arrogance and stupidity in one package"--he told him to send *one* ship so as to not provoke the Minbari, Lefcourt more or less said "We'll do what we darned well like".
    That's a small part of it. A bigger part was the absolutely ludicrous belief that because Earth handled the Dilgar they could take the Minbari, after a member of a known advanced civilization warned them that the Minbari were exceptionally dangerous.

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Thirdspace

    It..um...is the third B5 Movie....






    Things that don't Make Sense

    *wonder why the ''raiders'' always use the same Triangle Ship and are always human?

    *So the raiders are taken to a Drazi penal colony? With no trial or anything?

    *So Zack is suddenly a Star Fury pilot...just in this movie.

    *Lyta sure has a lot of paper for her Crazy Notes. Did she buy all they had a Space Office Max?

    *The IPX blockade runners are a nice touch that makes sense...but we never hear about them in the show.

    *So Lyta wakes up in Telepath Zombie Mode, but still gets all dressed like normal?

    *So Lyta wants to destroy the artifact....and the only thing she can think of is to ram like twenty bots into it? Did she forget B5 has big space guns and pulse cannons?

    *Dr. Evil Lynn sure knows a lot about Lyta....

    *A telepathic artifact that effects people seems basic and obvious....yet everyone acts like this can never happen?

    *And if there is even a chance the artifact is effecting the station....why not just play it safe and tow it away from the station?

    *Guess Dr. Evil Lynn brought her own coffee from Earth? Or is she buying the 300 credits a cup from the B5 Starbucks?

    *Good thing B5 Security is immune to the waves of evil telepathy.....

    *So the Vorlon's put a telepathic message in Lyta...but why does it take so long to do anything? The Artifact of Doom floats around the station for five days at least.

    *Wonder if the Minbari stealth tech worked against the Trirdspace aliens? As with most mixed battles, we never see the Minbari take any hits....

    *Wonder why they don't have B5, that is sitting like 1,000 feet away, blast the artifact or the attacking ships?

    *It is a wonder B5 even has any Star Furies left after the battle...

    Final F, sigh, this movie is just the worst. Guess they just ''had to make a movie''.

  8. - Top - End - #788
    Orc in the Playground
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    So...later than I thought I'd be, but here's my proposed schedule for Season 5. Opinions/counter-proposals welcome. I'm really busy with work and life, and decided that rather than re-read a bunch of episode guides to refresh my memory on good places to put breaks in Season 5 (which I have watched all the way through at least twice but still not nearly as many times as the earlier seasons, and thus have a harder time remembering specific story beats of) to just space them out 3 a week and then give Sleeping in Light its own week since it'd probably have enough discussion to support that.

    As we get close to the end of Season 5, we can also discuss whether we want to go the rest of the movies, Crusade, the assorted other spin-off series attempts, and/or the tie-in properties. Back in LiveJournal's heyday I was once in a B5 rewatch community that indeed discussed its way through all of those, and I do own pretty much everything spiff-off/tie-in wise except the comics (I didn't have access to a comic book store at the time they came out), but I don't feel strongly motivated to drag us through that unless people actually have those things and want to discuss them since I clearly don't have time to re-read everything again myself right now.

    Anyway, proposed Season 5 schedule:

    December 3rd:
    No Compromises
    The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
    The Paragon of Animals

    December 10th:
    A View from the Gallery
    Learning Curve
    Strange Relations

    December 17th:
    Secrets of the Soul
    In the Kingdom of the Blind
    A Tragedy of Telepaths

    December 24th:
    Phoenix Rising
    Day of the Dead
    The Ragged Edge

    December 31st:
    The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father
    Meditations on the Abyss
    Darkness Ascending

    January 7th:
    And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder
    Movements of Fire and Shadow
    The Fall of Centauri Prime

    January 14th:
    Wheel of Fire
    Objects in Motion
    Objects at Rest

    January 21st:
    Sleeping in Light

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    BlackDragon

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    It's probably OK to do it that way. As for the spin-offs, I never watched all of Crusade (I think I got about three episodes in), I have the Lost Tales on DVD but haven't got around to watching them, and I've seen "Call to Arms" but don't have it on DVD.

  10. - Top - End - #790
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    How come Day of the Dead appears eleventh in the schedule when it's the eighth episode of the season?
    "'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    How come Day of the Dead appears eleventh in the schedule when it's the eighth episode of the season?
    Several episodes of B5 were delayed during production and thus a few were aired out of order or TNT just decided to shuffle them for their own reasoning. Chronologically Day of The Dead is supposed to be around episode 11 or 12.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  12. - Top - End - #792
    Orc in the Playground
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    I copied and pasted the episode order from http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html so I suppose that's a choice they made. I could definitely see it placed either way, so if anyone has strong opinions about how we should do it speak up. In the meantime, I'll post the current viewing schedule with an * and get us started since it doesn't impact the first several weeks. (Sorry for not getting the proposed schedule up sooner so we could deal with it before starting. This has just not been my year for being on top of anything.)

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    Default No Compromises, The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, The Paragon of Animals

    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • No Compromises
    • The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
    • The Paragon of Animals



    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

  14. - Top - End - #794
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    RedWizardGuy

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    I'm good with the listed order, and if enough want to go for the other material I'm in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Several episodes of B5 were delayed during production and thus a few were aired out of order or TNT just decided to shuffle them for their own reasoning. Chronologically Day of The Dead is supposed to be around episode 11 or 12.

    Speaking of order, don't ever mention order and Crusade in the same sentence. Lord, was that a wreck! Below is the list of aired episodes.

    PC: Production Code
    OB: Original Broadcast order (Order TNT aired them in)
    RB: Revised broadcast order (order they were aired in on Sci-Fi and tend to be aired in subsequently)
    CH: Chronological order of the episodes
    CO: Continuity order of the episodes (and yes, there is a difference between this and chronological order)

    Episode PC# OB# RB# CH# CO#
    "The Memory of War" 102 10 2 5 8
    "The Needs of Earth" 101 11 3 4 7
    "Racing the Night" 103 9 1 6 6
    "Visitors from Down the Street" 104 12 5 7 9
    "Each Night I Dream of Home" 105 13 7 8 10
    "The Well of Forever" 106 3 6 12 12
    "The Long Road" 107 2 4 2 2
    "War Zone" 108 1 12 1 1
    "The Path of Sorrows" 109 4 9 9 3
    "Patterns of the Soul" 110 5 8 11 11
    "Ruling from the Tomb" 111 6 10 10 4
    "The Rules of the Game" 112 7 11 13 13
    "Appearances and Other Deceits" 113 8 13 3 5

    So we'll definitely have to decide what order to follow if we want to watch it...
    Last edited by tomandtish; 2017-12-03 at 01:56 PM.
    My current “Fantasy Fantasy” team (5 members allowed, only 1 from a world, series must be active): Jon Snow, Percy Jackson, Harry Dresden, Minmax, Belkar Bitterleaf. Back to 1/5ths Dinosaur mounted , dang it!

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  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Several episodes of B5 were delayed during production and thus a few were aired out of order or TNT just decided to shuffle them for their own reasoning. Chronologically Day of The Dead is supposed to be around episode 11 or 12.
    Ah, right. Yeah, thinking about it that makes sense - it always seemed odd to me that after the big reveal at the end of Secrets of the Soul they took an episode off for Day of the Dead before addressing it, but I didn't know the episodes had been aired out of order.
    "'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

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    BlackDragon

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    No Compromises:
    Captain Lochley turns up and almost immediately meets up with Byron, the leader of a group of rogue telepaths who eschew violence and want to set up a telepath colony on the station. Dr. Franklin examines them but they escape from Medlab while his back is turned. One of them (a supposedly mute boy named Simon) sees something he shouldn't have from a ventilation shaft and is wounded.
    Meanwhile, a Ranger on Mars is shot and a placard saying "Special delivery for Babylon 5" is put around his neck--this turns up inside a cargo bubble outside the station, and his killer arrives on the station as well, killing the Gaim ambassador. Sheridan is also getting death threats, telling him he'll pay for the death and destruction his war cost. The killer arrives at Sheridan's inauguration ceremony dressed as the Gaim ambassador, but Simon shows up and shouts "No!", broadcasting the killer's intentions to everyone in the room. The assassination fails and the inauguration goes ahead, even with Simon dying on the floor.
    The killer escapes in a Starfury and tries to destroy the observation lounge to get Sheridan, but Garibaldi is right behind him and grapples his fighter into a position where it can be destroyed by the defence grid. Sheridan grants the right of the telepaths to found the colony; Garibaldi tells Lochley that he's the new head of covert intelligence for the IA. He knows she served with the killer, and asks her what side she was on during the war. She'll only say she was on the side of Earth.

    Thoughts: I didn't quite understand the status of B5 now. It's owned by the Interstellar Alliance and the President of said alliance lives on it until the HQ on Minbar is complete, but is still run by an Earthforce captain? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I guess they needed to have Sheridan stay on the station or it wouldn't be B5 anymore.

    The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari:
    Londo's alcohol has been impounded and he's having an argument with Zack about it. He takes the opportunity of Zack talking to Vir to swig from a bottle, but immediately collapses and is taken to Dr Franklin. It wasn't poison--he's had a heart attack in his left heart, and while an artificial heart is being shipped out from Centauri Prime and will arrive in 3 days, Franklin can only guarantee to keep him alive 24 hours--if he makes it through the night, he has a chance.
    Londo has a dream where Delenn keeps asking him if he wants to live, and eventually he says "Yes" when she says it's the last time she can ask. "A word is also required", she says, walking into the darkness. Then he speaks to Sheridan in an empty Zocalo, who tells him to turn round or he'll die. "I cannot!" says Londo, knowing G'Kar is waiting behind him. Vir is next, also telling him to turn round because his heart can no longer bear the weight of his conscience. Finally, he speaks directly to G'Kar in his dream as he's reminded of the bombardment of the Narn homeworld and G'Kar's torture at Cartagia's hands, and G'Kar tells him he should have spoken out; the fact he did not is what makes him unsuitable to be Emperor. Dream Londo is tortured himself as the real version is being shocked to restart his hearts, and as his hearts finally start up he tells G'Kar (standing next to the medlab bed in real life) that he's sorry for all he's done.
    Lennier is arranging to leave B5 permanently, since he feels like a bit of a third wheel in the Delenn/Sheridan relationship. He's going to join the Rangers.

    Thoughts: Episodes that are largely G'Kar and Londo bouncing off each other are generally pretty good, but the framing device (this all happening in Londo's dying dreams) sap some of the impact from this one, I think. We also start the plotline of Lennier wuvving Delenn so much that he has to go away because he can't stand to see her with someone else, which will develop over the course of this season.

    The Paragon of Animals:
    The IA looks to be on the brink of dying before it even starts, with the various races demanding the promised technology and saying that the Declaration of Principles attempts to legislate morality and is thus counter to the entire intent. G'Kar is thus attempting to re-write the declaration to be more suitable, because Sheridan insists that there is no point to the Alliance without it.
    Garibaldi wants to use telepaths to gather intelligence for the IA, so with Sheridan's permission he heads off to see Byron, only for his request to be refused before he even makes it.
    Aliens known as the Enphili have refused to pay the raiders who hound them and are on the brink of destruction. An injured Ranger in a wrecked White Star flies to B5 to ask for help--Lyta has to scan him to find this out because he's not conscious, and he dies as she finishes her work. Sheridan resolves to send the entire White Star fleet to Enphili--since it's on the edge of Drazi space he informs the ambassador of his intentions. Byron picks up from the ambassador that the Drazi intend to ambush the White Stars, because they support the raiders; this information is passed on through Lyta, who was also asked to help by Garibaldi. The White Stars bypass the ambush and wipe out the raiders, and when the Drazi ambassador learns of this in open council, he's forced to run off to make sure his own ships don't get destroyed in turn. With moral superiority in place, Sheridan gets everyone to sign the Declaration.

    Thoughts: I think episodes like this one are why B5 fans have such a generally low opinion of Season 5. Let's be honest here, Byron is really not a nice man: he's perfectly willing to take Sheridan's help in setting up his free "colony", but is totally unwilling to help out in turn. He seems to have largely the same attitude as Bester towards "mundanes" but doesn't have Bester's position of authority (or his charm), so he just goes for being as petty as possible toward them. All of the bits of the episode where Byron isn't present are fine, he just drags everything down whenever he's on-screen.
    Last edited by factotum; 2017-12-04 at 09:29 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #797
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    No Compromises:
    Thoughts: I think episodes like this one are why B5 fans have such a generally low opinion of Season 5. Let's be honest here, Byron is really not a nice man: he's perfectly willing to take Sheridan's help in setting up his free "colony", but is totally unwilling to help out in turn. He seems to have largely the same attitude as Bester towards "mundanes" but doesn't have Bester's position of authority (or his charm), so he just goes for being as petty as possible toward them. All of the bits of the episode where Byron isn't present are fine, he just drags everything down whenever he's on-screen.
    It's not a surprise that Byron has that attitude, since he was a trusted subordinate of Bester for quite a while, and Bester was grooming him for a high position among the telepaths. If I recall correctly, their falling out was over how Bester treated telepaths, not over how he treated "mundanes".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    It's not a surprise that Byron has that attitude, since he was a trusted subordinate of Bester for quite a while, and Bester was grooming him for a high position among the telepaths. If I recall correctly, their falling out was over how Bester treated telepaths, not over how he treated "mundanes".
    No, their falling out was over how he treated mundanes - it was after he ordered Byron to kill a bunch of mundanes in cold blood (I think they'd been working with the telepath railroad?). That said, Byron and Bester do kind of share the idea that telepaths are superior to mundanes - only Bester's take on that is that telepaths should be a ruling class and mundane lives don't matter to him whereas Byron feels that telepaths should be morally superior and eschew violence, and this causes him to be very isolationist.
    As far as what factotum said, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say Byron is unwilling to help out - as I recall he specifically says that he and his people are happy to work for their various livings. I always felt his objection was more to the feeling that telepaths were viewed more as tools than as people (how fair that feeling is on his part is a whole separate debate of course).
    "'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    After seasons 2-4 of the Big Arc(s), season 5 does feel like a bit of a let down...kinda like season 1. At the same time, though, it is nice to see ''life go on'' after the arcs.

    Earth Destroyer Acheron! This should have been a Shadow Ship....

    The season 5 opening is the best....but of course, it's only possible with four years of a good show. They do, simply, pick the most iconic B5 quotes and images.

    And we all know Lockley was on Clark's side...right

    No Compromises

    *Why put the headquarters for the Interstellar alliance on Minbar? Why is that choice logical? Why not put it in Neutral Space?

    *Sheridan says that captain Lockley is Ivonava's replacement, except she is a captain and is in charge of B5. So....does this not make her more of Sheridan's replacement?

    *And...if Lockley is the captain, where is her first officer?

    *Of course this episode sets up the Huge Problem for the rest of season 5: B5 is an independent station, run by Earthgov Military under all Earth laws, rules, and regulations...and yet, is an independent how? What exactly are they ''independent'' from?

    *Garabaldi put coffee stains on G'Kars book? Where did he get all that coffee? Lots of other episodes make a big deal how rare it is on B5.

    *Byron's group does not like weapons (sigh, ok) and technology. Um...technology? How can one live in space, on a space station, and say they don't like or use technology? Literally everything around you is maintained and keeps you alive by technology. Or does Byron mean personal use of technology? So using B5's life support does not count as using technology...

    *Guess C and C does not notice the stolen Starfury?

    *Garabaldi goes and grabs a Starfury how? He is not a member of Earthforce or anything?

    *OK....to start the whole mess: Sheridan under the authority of the Interstellar Alliance allows the telepaths to make a colony on B5. The ''independent'' B5, that still follows all Earth laws and such...but is independent in no real way. The problem starts here: under Earth law all telepaths must be part of Psi Core, and as B5 ''follows are Earth laws'' they must follow this law too......unless Sheridan is going to say that an independent B5 does not follow any Earth laws, and will only follow Interstellar Alliance law....by making it a true independent station with no ties to Earth what so ever.

    Final- D, Sigh, what a boring episode. The assassination plot is very bland. It is nice to see the characters we know interact some...but that is just about all that happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    As far as what factotum said, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say Byron is unwilling to help out - as I recall he specifically says that he and his people are happy to work for their various livings. I always felt his objection was more to the feeling that telepaths were viewed more as tools than as people (how fair that feeling is on his part is a whole separate debate of course).
    The fact is, he's asked to help out in the most obvious way possible, and he refuses. That must be some new definition of working for a living I wasn't previously aware of. I also question what *other* skills Byron's mob have that would actually be useful in any way? Even if one of their number is a good plumber I imagine B5 already has enough of those to be getting by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The fact is, he's asked to help out in the most obvious way possible, and he refuses. That must be some new definition of working for a living I wasn't previously aware of. I also question what *other* skills Byron's mob have that would actually be useful in any way? Even if one of their number is a good plumber I imagine B5 already has enough of those to be getting by.
    Yea, Byron is all like ''we won't work as telepaths...we only want to do low level menial work''. And B5 all ready has like 100's of such workers...plus tons of brown sector/lukers day workers.

    Of course, once Byron shows his true colors and becomes a terrorist, he uses telepathy as a weapon...but it is ''ok'' then, you know because he is insane.

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    The problem with Season 5 is, it was made up at the last minute. They were told S4 would be the last so they tied up the Shadow War and the Earth Alliance Civil War in one package... then the show got renewed. It was suppose to take S4 and S5 to wrap about both those plot lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Why put the headquarters for the Interstellar alliance on Minbar? Why is that choice logical? Why not put it in Neutral Space?
    The headquarters for the U.N is in New York City as opposed to say Sweden. The reason you'd put in on Minbar is for security purposes putting the leaders of the Alliance behind the most powerful military force. If they put it in neutral space that'd mean building another space station.(as any habitable planet would either be claimed by one race or at least desired by a some nearby race.). Putting it on a planet means in the event of attack its relatively easy to evacuate personnel to underground bunkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Garabaldi put coffee stains on G'Kars book? Where did he get all that coffee? Lots of other episodes make a big deal how rare it is on B5.
    They did make a big deal about it, yes and part of that big deal was about how Ivonava put aside space in the hydroponics bay for a coffee plant which Garibaldi knows about. Its probably the same plant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Final- D, Sigh, what a boring episode. The assassination plot is very bland. It is nice to see the characters we know interact some...but that is just about all that happens.
    Yeah its a big D.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

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    The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari

    Well, it is the second episode...and it is nice to watch that beginning again...

    I did like the tiny, but nice touch of Sheridan changing his clothing every camera cut away...

    We do get to see Centari Male Appendages....

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So Lenear just up and quits and wants to be come a Ranger? Well, sure it is possible...but it is still a bit odd...and guess it is just something for the character to do. And it does replace Marcus without adding another character.

    *Londo is hooked up to the machine in med lab with so very, very, very 20th century looking Cardio Monitoring Pads (and them older style ones that need lots of gooey gel and that rip off like five layers of skin when removed)

    *The card sure bleeds water with red food coloring.....but it is just a dream

    *Vir says it has been a 'hell of a year', in January of 2263, so not much of 'a year'....or did Vir mean last year of season 4?

    *Londo has a flashback to the bombing of Narn.....and we see the 'manta ray' type Centari battle ships, but oddly we won't ever see them again as all Centari warships are all ways 'starfish' types now...

    Final-D, sigh again nothing much happens. It is sort of nice to see the Londo flashback...but then, well, we don't really see or learn anything new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    *Vir says it has been a 'hell of a year', in January of 2263, so not much of 'a year'....or did Vir mean last year of season 4?
    It's reasonable to assume he means "the last year has been a hell of a year", e.g. the previous 12 months regardless of what the actual year is. The other possibility is that he's talking about Centauri years--we don't know their calendar or when the New Year falls within it.

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    The Paragon of Animals

    The third episode...


    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So Earth is a member of the Alliance....so where is the Earth ambassador? Sheridan can't represent Earth and be president of the Alliance at the same time, right?

    *It is a bit odd to see Sheridan all flustered and clueless about what to do with the Alliance problem. During the Shadow War and Earth Civil War Sheridan got the way things really worked in the universe, like when tricked the races into putting the White stars along their borders. Now he is just a whiny politician.

    *Gabalidi makes the point that all races except humans and Narn use telepaths...wonder why we never see this? A couple telepaths from any race could do a lot of damage or even take over the universe...but we don't see it.

    *Is there some reason the telepaths are all the biggest jerks in the universe?

    *And, of course, Byron is the biggest jerk of all with the ''we will do dumb jobs, but no telepath stuff''.

    *We see like 20-30 white stars hanging around B5? Why?

    *Byron goes into full super jerk mode with his talk to Lyta about being ordered around.....except Gabaladi did ask. And really Gabaladi and Lyta are the oldest ''friends'' in the show....

    *Byron's little chance telepath scan is the perfect example of how great and powerful telepaths can be, and even a force for good...yet still people don't ''get'' it?

    *Again the Raiders....now likely in this case are not human...still use the same Triangle Ships?

    *So the Darzi plan was to destroy the white star fleet? And they thought no one would notice? And that they would somehow utterly obliterate every single white star?

    *Of course, this does bring up the question of who blew apart that first white star? The raiders? The Darzi Liberators? What happened to the white stars being advanced and powerful? It would have taken like what 5 or 6 ships at least to give a white star trouble....and the white star could still maneuver and fly faster, right?

    *The timing of the Enfelli problem and the singing the deceleration problem is amazing...just when Sheridan needed a moral win...oh, look there is one.

    *But...well, one of the BIG missions of the Rangers has always been to watch and report...so how did they miss the Enfelli problem? Rangers have been in Darzi space and the ''edge'' of Darzi space before, right? Yet no ranger found out about this...not even a hint? Not even when the rangers specifically patrolled the borders of space of the aliens last year?

    *Wonder if the Alliance forces the Darzi to rebuild the Enfelli world and make reparations?

    *Wonder how the Enfelli feel about joining an Alliance that had a member attacking them?


    Final-D, yet again...not much happens. Sheridan wants everyone to sign a scroll...exciting.

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    What are you basing your assessment that telepaths should have taken over the universe on? Heck, if anyone was going to attempt universal takeover on behalf of telepaths, Bester would be your man, yet he's not tried it...yet. The problem you have is that telepaths are rare compared to "mundanes", so even if an average telepath is worth a hundred regular humans (and I really don't think that's the case) they still lose in a straight up fight--this is why Bester is attempting to work behind the scenes to tip the scales in his favour before starting the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    What are you basing your assessment that telepaths should have taken over the universe on? Heck, if anyone was going to attempt universal takeover on behalf of telepaths, Bester would be your man, yet he's not tried it...yet. The problem you have is that telepaths are rare compared to "mundanes", so even if an average telepath is worth a hundred regular humans (and I really don't think that's the case) they still lose in a straight up fight--this is why Bester is attempting to work behind the scenes to tip the scales in his favour before starting the war.
    It is the ''caster vs mundane'' problem.

    Ok, any telepath of at least ''P5'' can read minds...anyone's mind and there is no mundane defense. And a lowly P5 can not only do a surface scan, but can do a deep scan too. So one telepath, alone, would have no trouble taking over just about anything. Security codes, passwords, confidential deals, and really any and every thing else a telepath can steal with only a little effort. Nothing is safe.

    And, as Garabilid and others have said, it is not a classic fight...it is a fight of information.

    You can just look at examples from the show itself....whenever they use telepaths they tip the scales of power and change things. How did they find out about the Darzi raiders? A couple episodes from now Byron the terrorist will steal all the secrets of the alliance...and highlight just how easy it is.

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    This week, we'll be discussing:

    • A View from the Gallery
    • Learning Curve
    • Strange Relations


    Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

    If I don't hear any objections by Wednesday, we're going to go with the viewing order currently posted on the first post in the thread. If anyone feels strongly that it should be different, speak up.

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    A View from the Gallery: This is basically a pair of low-level maintenance workers viewing the action while an alien fleet attacks B5. I don't think it's ever explained who the aliens are, why they're attacking the station, or why the entire White Star fleet is off somewhere else, and the connection to the rest of the season is tenuous at best. There's a couple of nice touches--the bit where they explain that fire doesn't burn in space, so the colour of the explosions is entirely down to the atmosphere venting from the destroyed ships, for instance--but overall, the episode is largely forgettable.

    Learning Curve: Four Minbari Rangers (two older ones, two young recruits) visit B5, while a mob boss tries to grow his empire in Downbelow. He tries to get Zack killed because he thinks he's a bit too perceptive, and does this by getting a young woman to send a tip about the recent murders to him. She protests about this (no idea what she thought the plan was) and screams just as the young Rangers pass by, so they pile in to help and one gets beaten half to death for his trouble. Delenn decides to use the "application of terror" method here: as soon as the young Ranger can stand he's sent back Downbelow to confront the man who beat him, and thus also confront his own fear. The Rangers beat up the rest of the gangster's men and then form a ring so the young one can defeat the boss himself, which he does.

    Thoughts: Again we have this weird thing with B5 being run by an Earthforce captain, but she's overruled by pretty much everyone--both Sheridan and Delenn do it in this episode. Can't help but feel that Ivanova would not have stood for that. Oh, and Garibaldi appears obsessed with finding out whose side Lochley was on during the war, which is a largely pointless plotline that goes nowhere that I recall.

    Strange Relations: Psi Cops arrive on the station, looking for Byron and his pals. They're led by Bester, and as soon as Garibaldi hears that he tries to attack him, and has to be taken off to the brig. Lochley says she can't stop Bester taking Byron away because the individual members of the Alliance have full sovereignty, so Psi Corps have the right under Earth law to take them...Sheridan asks her to find a way round this. Bester and his goons get all the telepaths including Byron. However, Lochley says to him that these guys have been travelling so much in alien space that they have to be put under quarantine for 60 days--he can't take them. Bester insists they must stay on B5 until he comes back for them. Lyta joins the group, taking off her Psi Corps shield.
    Lochley finds out Garibaldi has been looking at her personnel file and confronts him. She explains she's OK with Bester because he hunted down a rogue telepath who killed some her people. Sheridan asked her to command the station because he wanted someone on the "other side" who he trusted, and apparently he and Lochley were married for a few months after officer training.
    Londo is due to return to Centauri Prime but the liner he was due to travel on can't wait for him--it explodes shortly after leaving. An attempt to assassinate him? Delenn asks G'Kar to be Londo's bodyguard on Centauri Prime, and he accepts, if only to see the faces of the royal court.

    Thoughts: Well, Byron being beaten up is a high point, but otherwise, not much to say about this one. I do wonder why Lochley was suddenly so keen to tell Garibaldi about her background--she didn't seem to have much justification for spilling the beans. Oh, and her and Sheridan being married? Guess he must have forgotten to mention her at any point in the prior *three years*, and having that as his excuse for putting her in command is ridiculous, since he hasn't seen her in a long time; people change!

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    A View from the Gallery

    It is episode four...

    Things that don't Make Sense

    *So the evil alien fleet just seems to come out of nowhere?

    *Maybe it was not such a good idea to send ''all'' the white stars out? Does not even the most basic common sense tell a person to all ways keep a home guard ready?

    *I guess it is funny the two guys don't know what the doo dad does?

    *So with B5 at Red Alert, it sure seems like Mac and Bo just go about their daily workday? You'd think they would either be in a shelter or assigned to damage control.

    *So they can't turn a jump gate off...but what about scrambling the codes or otherwise disabling it?

    *Every other shot of the station for the past couple years has shown at least one Minbari cruiser nearby....yet, now for some reason there are none.

    *Also it seems not one Alliance warship is anywhere in the whole sector to come help defend B5.

    *So B5 will have a religious ceremony during a red alert alien attack?

    *So when the alien fleet attacks, the captain ''advises'' everyone to go to a shelter or stay home? Advises? Why would this not be mandatory?

    *And again, when B5 gets boarded by the aliens, again people are advised to take shelter.

    *During a red alert and attack by evil aliens, Mac and Bo hang out in the observation dome and watch the fight outside. As the dome is on the outer hull of B5, this is a very bad idea. One blast that breaches the dome and they will die.

    *So they talk about how when a ship blows up the air explodes, but how much air does a Starfury even have? A starfury pilot is in a spacesuit. It's not like the whole cockpit and ship is full of air. With something like an air tank, sure, but only something like a couple hours worth, right? So how does an air tank make an explosion bigger then the whole Starfury?

    *So the telepaths mind control the alien guy with no problem.....wonder if they can do that all the time...why or why not?

    *So does Byron like read a starfury pilots mind, from like a mile away, and then project what he reads into Bo's mind? So is this reading a persons mind without permission? Or did fighter pilot Bob go over to Byron and say ''read my mind any time you want''.

    *So the Fire Bots spray B5 with fire retardant foam? Would that even work in space? What exactly is burning anyway? The air inside of the hull of B5 would burn up quick enough. Or is the blast so hot the metal is on fire or something?

    *So in the middle of the huge battle....is getting into a life pod even a good idea? To float around in a tiny little target for the bad guys to shoot? Or did the evil aliens sign the Geneva Convention?

    *And how does the President of the Interstellar Alliance give orders to two Earthforce Maintenance guys? Does the UN secretary general tell local New York city mechanics what to do?

    *We have seen them before a time or two....but the little porthole windows in the floor don't seem to be all that useful. Like, sure, I guess someone can lay down on the ground and look out them to see some stars?


    Final- D, I do normally like the 'other' type shows that give us another view of a TV show...but Mac and bo just don't get the job done. This is just a filler episode, guess they had to make a set number or something.

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