Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Cikomyr]

As noted in "Deathwalker", where Earth's intervention against the Dilgar turned the tide of that war, which the League appreciates. Militarily and even economically, they are above the League members and could likely take on any one of them on their own without any trouble. It'd be a good fight between them and either the Narn or the Centauri, and as we saw the Minbari would destroy them.

Not against the Centauri. The Centauri would wipe the floor against anyone not the Minbari or an Elder Race.

In an alternate future, the Centauri won a genocidal war against Earth AFTER Earth got its power boost from the Shadows AND Minbari/Centauri tech transfer. Centauri are a flippin' powerhouse that only lets internal politics slow it down.

[factotum]

Not against the Centauri. The Centauri would wipe the floor against anyone not the Minbari or an Elder Race.

Which is odd, because Londo seems to believe the Centauri are in steep decline? He even says to Sinclair at one point that the Centauri are sponsoring the Babylon project because they want to hitch themselves to Earth's rising star, and of course:

Spoiler

Show

He's a perfect target for Mr. Morden because of this, since his "associates" can help make the Centauri great again.

[Cikomyr]

Which is odd, because Londo seems to believe the Centauri are in steep decline? He even says to Sinclair at one point that the Centauri are sponsoring the Babylon project because they want to hitch themselves to Earth's rising star, and of course:

Spoiler

Show

He's a perfect target for Mr. Morden because of this, since his "associates" can help make the Centauri great again.

I get your argument. And that is the impression you are supposed to get from their display in the first season.

But the Centauri are a sleeping/comatosed giant. They are weak because they are too corrupted and self-drained by domestic politics to achieve anything. Think if Rome was constantly paralyzed by political crisis and budgetary bankruptcy, yet still sitting on top of a couple or legions that could conquer anything they set their sights​ on - if only the Senate bothered to vote for itd budgetting.

They want to tag the Humans because the Earth Alliance has a strong political will and unity that gives it drives and ambition that has long escaped the Centauri. The only way they know how to interact with the Galaxy is through the barrel of a gun, and they lost taste for such military venture.

Yet dont underestimate the Centauri's tech base. Remember that later in the show, a single of their plasma weapon can kill a Shadow with a volley. They completely wiped out a Shadow base, they went toe to toe against the Narns while never suffering any significant setbacks, and then went in a string of constant military conquest against everyone in the galaxy.

The Centauri are one heck of a power base.

[Rodin]

The Centauri also act a lot like the post-WWII British Empire - a nation that used to control a huge empire that is steadily in decline and losing colonies due to both lack of power to maintain control and lack of interest from the younger generations. Still tough enough to smash any second-rate power that goes against them, but no longer capable of just stomping in and sitting on somewhere backed by massive military dominance.

I think they also manage to conquer a significant chunk of the galaxy by themselves once the Narn are out of the way - the Shadows help them by eliminating the Narn and then taking territory for themselves, but the Centauri take on a significant chunk of the League without assistance. They prove it again when they go on the attack in season 5, and only get stopped when the full might of the Alliance comes down on them.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya, the Centauri are freakin nuts and i agree that the only thing that could probably stop them would be the Minbari. I mean the Narn beat them back by just grinding them out with attrition, cuz the Narn had nothing to lose.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• By Any Means Necessary
• Signs and Portents
• TKO

Due to a complete lack of objection from anyone over several weeks of me asking, there are now new spoiler guidelines: feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

Also, feel free to keep discussing the previous week's episodes, since the forums were down for most the week.

[Douglas]

• By Any Means Necessary

Heh, I remember that one. Otherwise known as "Politicians learn that giving a defiant subordinate an explicit blank check is a bad idea."

[factotum]

Fun fact: Babylon 5 was originally broadcast on Channel 4 in the UK, but they didn't show TKO as part of the main series. It had a special showing at 11pm after the rest of the first season had already gone out, presumably due to the violent nature of the episode.

[Rodin]

Fun fact: Babylon 5 was originally broadcast on Channel 4 in the UK, but they didn't show TKO as part of the main series. It had a special showing at 11pm after the rest of the first season had already gone out, presumably due to the violent nature of the episode.

Weird, British TV is usually a lot more forgiving than US TV. I don't even remember there being anything particularly violent in it - it's just a boxing match, after all, and considerably tamer than the sort of UFC fights that get broadcast today.

What's really amusing is the implication. People getting shot and stabbed? Perfectly fine, kiddies! Boxing match? Think of the children!!

TKO is one that I normally skip on re-watches, but did so this time just because I don't remember anything about it. Having seen it again, I kinda understand why - it's not a terrible episode, but it's just such a nothingburger. Nice to get a deeper look at Ivanova though.

By Any Means Necessary was pretty great, and one of the better Sinclair-focused episodes. Plus it features some the early trolling of each other that G'Kar and Londo get up to later.

Signs and Portents is a weird one. On the one hand, it's THE major Arc episode of the first season which sets up the Shadows and introduces Mr. Morden. On the other, there's the tedious B-plot with the Raiders. I'm very glad they elected to drop the Raiders after this, because they were just such bland and non-threatening villains. I guess every grand story has to begin with our heroes thwacking rats, but better opponents surely could've been devised.

[factotum]

Weird, British TV is usually a lot more forgiving than US TV. I don't even remember there being anything particularly violent in it - it's just a boxing match, after all, and considerably tamer than the sort of UFC fights that get broadcast today.

I think it was because it particularly showcases kickboxing, which is banned over here, and you also have to bear in mind that the regular broadcast slot for B5 over here was at 6pm--definitely early enough for the kiddywinkies to have a chance to watch it. Also, yes, people beating seven bells out of each other is considered more violent than those same people shooting each other, pretty sure that's the case pretty much everywhere.

[Cikomyr]

I will not comment on TKO since its the.only episode my girlfriend skips in her (very frequent) rewatches of B5.

By Any Mean Necessary is okay. The execution feels so much like Season 1; characters and dialogues are a bit clunky, but the concept is great. It only makes me sad that we never get to see another "dockyard"-centered episode of the entire series. All the super important characters are cool, but we never get to see about Regular Joe.

With one single exception, but that episode wasnt about THEM

- Signs and Portent.

This episode is.promise, promise, promise. Anything that resolves within that specific episode is dull, the rest is just a.promise of things to come. That makes it a damn important episode, and since B5 actually delivers on its promises, the episode is a great tease for the future, a much needed moment to inspire deeply.. and wait.

I know for a fact we are getting close to a few really good episodes. The plot might be mundane, but the character/dialogue really start to gel together and we get some of the best comedic moments of Season 1*

*But we already passed my favourite S1 moment: it was the farewell to the Narn Assassin in Parliament of Dreams

[Rodin]

*But we already passed my favourite S1 moment: it was the farewell to the Narn Assassin in Parliament of Dreams

"You will know pain...you will know fear...and then you will die. Have a nice flight!"

Looking at the quotes for that episode, it's a gold mine of funny lines. I've always liked G'kar's snarky response to Tu'Pari asking if he's Ambassador G'Kar.

"This is Ambassador G'kar's quarters. This is Ambassador G'kar's table. This is Ambassador G'kar's dinner. Which part of this progression escapes you?"

[Blackhawk748]

G'kar is just a wonderful character in general.

[Cikomyr]

G'kar is just a wonderful character in general.

There is also little moment that show his true colors:

GKar: we are willing to give you anything you want, Deathwalker, so you give us your antiaging process that will give us the edge to beat the Centauri

Deathwalker: I want the head of your assistant who beat me up

Gkar: oh, well, in that case, **** you

[factotum]

G'kar is just a wonderful character in general.

Are there any major characters in B5 who aren't at least very good? With the possible exception of Sinclair, who was always a bit dull and worthy--Sheridan was a far more lively character.

[Blackhawk748]

Are there any major characters in B5 who aren't at least very good? With the possible exception of Sinclair, who was always a bit dull and worthy--Sheridan was a far more lively character.

Well, we lose Sinclair right as the show finds its stride so that doesnt help him, but i rather liked Sinclair, though Sheridan is pretty cool.

There is also little moment that show his true colors:

GKar: we are willing to give you anything you want, Deathwalker, so you give us your antiaging process that will give us the edge to beat the Centauri

Deathwalker: I want the head of your assistant who beat me up

Gkar: oh, well, in that case, **** you

Ah G'kar, you are glorious. Not as great as Vir, but pretty close.

[Legato Endless]

Are there any major characters in B5 who aren't at least very good? With the possible exception of Sinclair, who was always a bit dull and worthy--Sheridan was a far more lively character.

Marcus is fairly divisive in the fandom, though I didn't have any issues with him*. I kind of like Sinclair, though I certainly preferred Sheridan. I thought his struggle with madness were very believable, especially once one is aware of the actor's troubles in real life. The man cast is very solid. The only characters I find irritating are all minor to supporting (Byron, Lorien)

*Except his romance with Ivanova becomes super creepy in "Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic."

[Darth Ultron]

Survivors

Garibaldi is accused of sabotaging the station prior to the President's arrival. And it's a Garibaldi episode, where he looses his job..and it's a big deal and all...for a couple days.

*Poor Worker Guy-does the crazy classic ''say something right before they die''. Sigh.

*Weird Tech-The 'live action Battle Chess/Mortal Combat' game is cool...but wonder why it gets blurry all the time. Is it just to show it's a game?

*N'Grath-Is back!

Things That don't Make Sense

*Evil Money-So Centari ducats equal Garibaldi is a criminal, how? It's just crazy to say ''he has alien money, he is guilty!''

*Evil Paper-So, Garibaldi, has some paper/plastic plans of the cobra bays. Kinda odd as we see very little 'paper' ever in the whole show. B5 is very paperless, but suddenly, when the plot needs it....Garibaldi has guilty paper evidence.

*Escape Door-So the Alien Sector with it's alternative atmosphere has a door to Earth normal Babylon 5, with no airlock?

*Sinclar saves the Day-Sure is amazing Sinclar comes out of nowhere to save Garibaldi like seconds before he is killed. And he read a security report that said he was ''getting beat up on level 77''?

*You'd think Garibaldi would be the type to carry around two guns...one unregistered. Maybe the writer did not think of that...

*Earth Force One Protection-So Earth Force One only gets a guard of four Starfuries? Just four?

*Evil Plot-So the worker that died planned to say ''Garibaldi planted the bomb'' somehow, some way. But how? Or was it all Cutter's evil plot? Like did Cutter sneak over to him in med lab and tell him what to say and then convince Kemmer to wake the guy up as he ''um, knew'' he had something important to say?

*Evil Evidence-So Cutter was the one who planted the evidence in Garibaldi's quarters, right? And we know he cashed in his big ''not so secret pay off'', but....um, where did he get plans of the B5 cobra bays from?

*All Access Links-Somewhere it is said Links are person specific, like with bio-metrics....well, except when the plot need to forget that.

*No Watching-Guess maybe Presidential Security Guys don't have that ''they watch their bank accounts like a hawk'' thing. Poor little security guy gets watched and nit picked....but no one notices a huge credit deposit in Cutter's account.

*The Bombs-If this was a presidential assassination attempt....how where the exploding cobra bays going to blow up the president too? Were the bombs so strong they would have destroyed the station? Or powerful enough to destroy the whole incoming docking area?

Final Thoughts- D-This is not a good episode. The Garibaldi background and him talking to Londo and G'Kar, but the rest is even hard to watch....

By Any Means Necessary

The station's dockworkers go on strike, prompting a rash reaction from the Earth Alliance government.

*The Rush Act-Named for Rush Limbaugh :)

*Anachronisms-A lot of the blue collar dock workers wear very 20th century fuzzy hats. And the Fire Fighting suits look very 20th century too....

*Weird Tech-A Microchip breaks. A Microchip, in 2258...lol. Maybe it should be a ''nanochip'' or an ''isolinear chip'' or a ''bio neural gel pack'' or you know anything other then a 20th century microchip.

Things that don't Make Sense-

*Crazy Cargo-The Narn cargo ship looks...well, kinda human-like. As if it was built by humans. I guess maybe the Narn could buy Earth cargo ships from Universe Hall or something. Or maybe all ''blue collar'' type cargo ships kinda just look all alike...a lot are just ''flying boxes''.

*No Privacy(again)-So Na'Toth ''checks the imports'' to find Londo has the special plant. So is everything anyone imports public knowledge? Or did Na'Toth hack into a database?

*Light Years?-So is the planet Narn in some alternative universe? Sinclar says B5 is 12.2 light years from Narn, and that is ''10 of Narn light years''. What? Is not the speed of light a universal constant?

Final Thoughts-C. One of the things that is interesting about the B5 universe is the imagining of the kind of people that are out in space. Obviously, someone still needs to do the labor-intensive and menial jobs around the station, but I had always thought such workers would be people interested and excited in going into space and mixing with aliens. But in the B5 universe, these workers were apparently shipped out by unions (nominally as volunteers) to do a contract job - as Connally said, many of them helped build the station and are still here. Presumably that means they don't necessarily have the money to get back to Earth - or even the solar system - or they are not sure of employment back home. By bringing in this entire batch of blue-collar workers, you are also bringing in their stereotypical fears and prejudices. Typically, blue-collar workers are not as well-educated, and may be more prone to using violence as an answer to problems.

The second plot throughout the episode, regarding G'Kar's plant, is interwoven with the main plot in a better-than-usual manner. The secondary plot with G'Kar and Londo was played at least partly for laughs - Londo's glee at screwing G'Kar was pretty funny

[Cikomyr]

*Light Years?-So is the planet Narn in some alternative universe? Sinclar says B5 is 12.2 light years from Narn, and that is ''10 of Narn light years''. What? Is not the speed of light a universal constant?

That is one of the dumbest thing i saw you post.

The speed of light is constant. A year isnt. The time it takes for Narn to make a revolution around its star has no reason to be anything similar to an Earth year.

[Olinser]

*Light Years?-So is the planet Narn in some alternative universe? Sinclar says B5 is 12.2 light years from Narn, and that is ''10 of Narn light years''. What? Is not the speed of light a universal constant?

The speed of light is a universal constant.

The length of a year is not.

So a Narn year is approx. 5/6ths the length of an Earth year. Meaning a Narn light-year is 5/6ths an Earth light-year.

[factotum]

So a Narn year is approx. 5/6ths the length of an Earth year. Meaning a Narn light-year is 5/6ths an Earth light-year.

You have that backwards. If B5 is 12LY from Narn, which is equivalent to 10 Narn light-years, then the Narn light-year (and thus its actual year) are *longer* than Earth ones.

As for the comment about how much protection Earth Force One gets--how much protection does Air Force One get when it's flying around? If it's even as much as four fighter aircraft I'd be surprised, because that plane is generally not expected to fly into a warzone (unless the US already has total air superiority in the region). Similarly, Earth Force One is not expected to come under attack, and the four Starfuries accompanying it are more an honour guard than any sort of actual defensive force.

[Darth Ultron]

As for the comment about how much protection Earth Force One gets--how much protection does Air Force One get when it's flying around? If it's even as much as four fighter aircraft I'd be surprised, because that plane is generally not expected to fly into a warzone (unless the US already has total air superiority in the region). Similarly, Earth Force One is not expected to come under attack, and the four Starfuries accompanying it are more an honour guard than any sort of actual defensive force.

That is not a good comparison though. I'm pretty sure a ''quick reaction force'' is on standby, like near Air Force One, at all times. But also, on Earth, Air Force One will always be ''very close'' to the entire military.

And more so......Air Force One does not go to ''neutral territory on the edge of the known world''

[factotum]

That is not a good comparison though. I'm pretty sure a ''quick reaction force'' is on standby, like near Air Force One, at all times. But also, on Earth, Air Force One will always be ''very close'' to the entire military.

Not shown in the episode: the two Omega class destroyers lurking in hyperspace, ready to jump in and protect the President should it be required. Seriously, though, they could totally do that--an Omega can create its own jump point, but would be more hidden hiding in hyperspace than if it was openly accompanying the President's ship.

[Cikomyr]

I always have found the Hyperspace geometry fuzzy at best.. never understood how it worked.

[Legato Endless]

As for the comment about how much protection Earth Force One gets--how much protection does Air Force One get when it's flying around? If it's even as much as four fighter aircraft I'd be surprised, because that plane is generally not expected to fly into a warzone (unless the US already has total air superiority in the region). Similarly, Earth Force One is not expected to come under attack, and the four Starfuries accompanying it are more an honour guard than any sort of actual defensive force.

Normally none. It's monitored at all times and it's flightpath is confidential, but fighter escorts are quite rare. When President Clinton flew across Turkey aboard a Gulfstream III he was escorted by three F-16s, but that wasn't a normal situation I'm given to believe.

[Rodin]

I always have found the Hyperspace geometry fuzzy at best.. never understood how it worked.

The general impression I've always gotten is that there are "lanes" through Hyperspace based on locking onto the signals from jumpgates. While larger ships are capable of making their own jump points they generally don't move off too far because they'll just get lost. This also explains how you can have regional military headquarters like the one Morden offers to take out for Londo - they're built at areas where ships have to pass close to that system in order to lock onto jump gates that are deeper in. This is why the Narns can't just jump next to Centauri Prime and fling a load of rocks at it.

The more advanced races appear to have a better ability to go "off-roading". There's a few cases of Minbari warships hanging out in hyperspace near B5, and the Shadows just flat out ignore the beacons and go swanning through deep hyperspace wherever they like.

[Cikomyr]

The general impression I've always gotten is that there are "lanes" through Hyperspace based on locking onto the signals from jumpgates. While larger ships are capable of making their own jump points they generally don't move off too far because they'll just get lost. This also explains how you can have regional military headquarters like the one Morden offers to take out for Londo - they're built at areas where ships have to pass close to that system in order to lock onto jump gates that are deeper in. This is why the Narns can't just jump next to Centauri Prime and fling a load of rocks at it.

The more advanced races appear to have a better ability to go "off-roading". There's a few cases of Minbari warships hanging out in hyperspace near B5, and the Shadows just flat out ignore the beacons and go swanning through deep hyperspace wherever they like.

Hmm.. what about the Explorer-class ships who can jumo into the unknown?

Also, why do they have "transit points"? Strazynski has claimed that there isn't non-Hyperspace FTL. So why would you force non-Jump Poin capable ships to spend hours to transit between two gates that, in the Cosmic scale, are practically right next to each others?

[Darth Ultron]

Signs and Portents

Londo has a secret plan to recover a valuable Centauri jewel, while Raiders are becoming a problem again in the regions near the station.

And a mysterious man named Morden comes onto the station and asks a question...

*Anachronism-B5 uses the ''old'' Air Raid Siren for ''red alert''.

*Shadows!-blink and you will miss the Shadow battlecrab!

Things that Don't Make Sense

*A couple starfuries-I wonder why B5 does not have a ship or two at it's disposal? A dozen or so starfuries are cool....but they sure could use a ship every so often.

*Kosh docking-Ever wonder how Kosh docks at B5. The computer takes control and lands the ship, right? So does that work with Kosh's ship? Does his ship have an Earth compatible computer? Or maybe just one ''for show''?

*Kosh's suit-So Kosh damages his suit...somehow? Maybe in a fight with Morden or a Shadow? But, he can fix his suit with common Earth tech?

*The Mother-ship-everyone thinks this ship is odd, but how do normal raiders operate with no mothership?

*Blow them Up!-Lucky the Eye does not get blown up when the mothership does...


Final Thoughts-A. This is one of the most crucial episodes in the first season, which hits not only the important issues we have encountered so far (Sinclair's missing memories), but also really sets into motion the events that will be central in the coming seasons.

[Rodin]

Hmm.. what about the Explorer-class ships who can jumo into the unknown?

Also, why do they have "transit points"? Strazynski has claimed that there isn't non-Hyperspace FTL. So why would you force non-Jump Poin capable ships to spend hours to transit between two gates that, in the Cosmic scale, are practically right next to each others?

Not really clear on the explorer ships, since the only one we see gets knocked a little bit off course by an explosion and completely loses the ability to find its way home despite being in "local" hyperspace. How they function in areas where there are no beacons is a very good question. Perhaps they still need a "home" beacon to track from? Pure speculation here, but maybe what the explorer ships do is launch from a known location with a beacon to a pre-determined destination via viewing the star in normal space with telescopes/etc. Navigating by the stars, if you will. That gives them a course to follow and when they emerge on the other side they drop another beacon to allow them to launch to their next destination. If anything happens that knocks them off course while actually in hyperspace, they're screwed.

Not sure what you're referring to with transit points, the brief searching I did through the wikis only turned up "transfer points", which are more space stations used for transferring goods. For example, the transfer point on Io is presumably a fairly large shipping hub that gives a central location for distributing trade items throughout Sol system. I personally would have thought that around Mars or Earth itself would be the more logical place to stick that, but then we don't really see the layout of colonies/space stations in the home system.

[Cikomyr]

Not really clear on the explorer ships, since the only one we see gets knocked a little bit off course by an explosion and completely loses the ability to find its way home despite being in "local" hyperspace. How they function in areas where there are no beacons is a very good question. Perhaps they still need a "home" beacon to track from? Pure speculation here, but maybe what the explorer ships do is launch from a known location with a beacon to a pre-determined destination via viewing the star in normal space with telescopes/etc. Navigating by the stars, if you will. That gives them a course to follow and when they emerge on the other side they drop another beacon to allow them to launch to their next destination. If anything happens that knocks them off course while actually in hyperspace, they're screwed.

Not sure what you're referring to with transit points, the brief searching I did through the wikis only turned up "transfer points", which are more space stations used for transferring goods. For example, the transfer point on Io is presumably a fairly large shipping hub that gives a central location for distributing trade items throughout Sol system. I personally would have thought that around Mars or Earth itself would be the more logical place to stick that, but then we don't really see the layout of colonies/space stations in the home system.

Err.. the transit point I talk about is the locations the Raiders ambush travelling freighters?

"Jump points" maybe?