Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Douglas]

Could be future Minbari military lingo for "guns ready" (note that the humans just say that the cruiser's weapons are "hot"), but you're right, does seem a bit odd. What's maybe even more odd is that we're told numerous times that the human targeting scanners can't track Minbari ships, so it's pretty amazing they managed to hit this one, much less actually kill Dukhat. Human weapons don't seem to be that effective against Minbari ships for the entire rest of the war, apart from the nukes Sheridan uses against the Black Star.

I think Dukhat was ready for diplomacy, not battle, so the anti-scanner system may have simply not been active. The "open gun ports" are explicitly stated to be a signal of respect rather than hostility, the humans just didn't know that. So, it was a surprise shot against a target that had its guard completely down. That's an enormous situational advantage that they never had again.

[Rodin]

*Weird Tech-So do the Minbari have gizmos that freeze people in time? And the religious caste has them?

Apparently there's some fun backstory to this. This episode was originally meant to be right at the end of Season 1, just before the final episode. That gizmo that Delenn uses? It's the triluminary. The one she doesn't actually acquire until several episodes after this.

Hence why we never see it used again - she was using a powerful artifact for a specific purpose, to incapacitate fellow Minbari. Whether it even works on non-Minbari is unknown, and Delenn rarely gets into close quarters combat situations anyway.

[factotum]

Whether it even works on non-Minbari is unknown

Well, we know from Sinclair's appearance later on that the Triluminary can definitely do the same thing to a human that it did to Delenn--e.g. convert them at least partially to the other species. That would imply its other effects can also work on both races.

[Darth Ultron]

Could be future Minbari military lingo for "guns ready" (note that the humans just say that the cruiser's weapons are "hot"), but you're right, does seem a bit odd. What's maybe even more odd is that we're told numerous times that the human targeting scanners can't track Minbari ships, so it's pretty amazing they managed to hit this one, much less actually kill Dukhat. Human weapons don't seem to be that effective against Minbari ships for the entire rest of the war, apart from the nukes Sheridan uses against the Black Star.

The death of Dukhat is the only one that makes a little sense as the Minbari ''might'' of had their ''stealth jamming battle tech'' turned off, as they were not going into battle.

And the whole ''war'' is a bit skewed as the show mostly says ''the humans did not destroy any ship, except the Black Star and never killed a single Minbari, except Dukhat. '' That seems a bit odd. We meet a lot of people that ''fought'' in the war...but it's kinda odd they did not ''fight'' all that much....it was more like ''they pointlessly attacked and then the Minbari did not kill them''. Basicaly they just went too far making the Minbari too tough....they could have still mad them tough and not done the whole ''no Minbari has gotten even a paper cut in the whole war''.

[factotum]

There's at least one scene in "In the Beginning" where we see a human ship actually ramming a Minbari cruiser and thus doing some damage to it, so it's not like the Minbari were taking no casualties at all other than the Black Star--it's just the humans were taking way more.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• A Voice in the Wilderness part 1
• A Voice in the Wilderness part 2
• Babylon Squared

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

Also, do we want a different pace for Season 2? I should post the schedule for that soon. It seems like 3 episodes a week is working, but I'm open to changing it if people want to do something differently.

[Rodin]

All three are the best episodes of season 1, IMO. Great plots and great dialogue, including the "Ivanova is God" speech that cracks me up every time I hear it as well as Londo's rant about the Hokey Pokey.

I'm always impressed by how well Babylon Squared holds up in the lore after so much gets moved around and changed. I think the only thing that doesn't make sense retrospectively is Garibaldi's vision of him fighting a desperate battle on Babylon 5, and even that can be explained away as being a vision of a Bad Future that doesn't occur. There being multiple "The One"s is kinda clunky, but still fits quite well with the other Christian imagery that underlies the show.

[factotum]

I think the only thing that doesn't make sense retrospectively is Garibaldi's vision of him fighting a desperate battle on Babylon 5, and even that can be explained away as being a vision of a Bad Future that doesn't occur.

There are a couple of occasions where Garibaldi *is* fighting an intensive war on B5--in "Severed Dreams", for example, and I think it happens with the telepath rebellion in season 5 as well.

[Rodin]

There are a couple of occasions where Garibaldi *is* fighting an intensive war on B5--in "Severed Dreams", for example, and I think it happens with the telepath rebellion in season 5 as well.

Yeah, but the scene we see is them evacuating the civilians before something really nasty comes through, and the implication is Garibaldi knows he is going to his death to hold off the invaders.

I suspect it's from the aforementioned original plan to blow up Babylon 5 partway through and have Babylon 4 get dragged through time to replace it. Since that never wound up happening, Garibaldi's future vision also doesn't happen.

[Cikomyr]

At least, we know for a fact there isnt any relation betweeb B4 and the Great Machine XD

Also love the prank pulled on Ivanova

[Daimbert]

Things that don't make Sense

*Mad Ivanova-So in CNC Ivanova threatens Gray, loudly and in front of at least four or five people. Of course this just gets ignored. Though in any real setting Ivanova would be given a long talk by HR and an unpaid couple days off...at best. And then there is the whole assault and battery and destruction of the casino. Really, it is just way, way too much to just sweep under the rug. You might be able to say the casino did not press charges (though I doubt even that), but the dozen or so people she hit and hurt could sue too. And what about ''appearances'' how can people live and work in a place with crazy Ivanova might just ''go nuts'' and attack them at any time? Even in 2017 if someone so much as spreads their arms across a door way they can be charged with ''kidnapping''(by preventing someone from walking through the doorway) and go to jail for years.

Ivanova is in the military and is the second in command of a major military installation, not in a business. HR is not going to go after her for threatening someone, period, let alone someone from the Psi Corps. At most, Sinclair might step in, but he's already shown that as long as it's not a major diplomatic incident he's going to let it slide. As for the casino, that was, essentially, a bar brawl, and who is really responsible is debatable anyway. Again, no one is going to sue the second in command of the station over that unless they don't have insurance to cover it, and it's pretty clear that anything that was necessary there would be covered by Earth Force and the Babylon 5 budget. Again, with the military, bar brawls are handled internally and Sinclair and Garibaldi were definitely going to let this one slide for various reasons.

*Ben Zayn Investigations- Ok, so it is a witch hunt and Ben Zayn is crazy and Ben Zayn knows nothing about aliens or inter stellar politics(or common sense). Still, out of all of Sinclair's decisions he questions he picks ''he did not protest the Vorlon's killing Deathwalker''. Talk about grasping at a straw. Other then Sinclair's ''just a commander'' silly protest would have been pointless. Even if the Earth Government (not Sinclair) filed a protest the Vorlon's would not even notice. At best the Vorlon government might say "Every rose has it's thorn. The Kirby Sliver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. End of Line"

Sinclair is the chair of the Babylon 5 Advisory Council. He could have easily brought it up there and made it a big incident. Yes, it wouldn't have done much against the Vorlons, but at least it would have shown that he and Earth thought it a big deal. As it stands, it almost looks like, well, what is is: Sinclair was actually relieved that Deathwalker died and so the anti-agapic didn't go into Earth's hands. We know that it was more due to what it takes to create it, but Zayn didn't know that.

*Ben Zayn's Battle-So he is a Colonel and must have been in Earthforce for years...at least as long as Sinclair....but Zayn was NOT at the Battle of the Line? Granted he only makes a big deal that Sinclair was there and does not mention where he was at the time.

It's made clear in the episode that Zayn was Army, not Navy, and so wouldn't have been on the Line which was a space battle. Garibaldi wasn't on the Line either.

*Easy riding Garibaldi-So he planned to ''build'' the motorcycle ''forever'' (like millions of other guys with similar vehicles). But, assuming he did finish it someday, did he really think it would be fun to ride around the station? Sure he can do a loop through a central corridor (like we see him do), but does ''riding in a straight line in a tunnel really fit ''the freedom of riding a motorcycle''? And once he did finish it...where did he expect to get gasoline. Even more so ''late 20th century gasoline''? There is no more fossil fuel use in all of Earth, right? And even if he did get some gas....it is a good idea to exhaust gas fumes in an enclosed space like B5? (Yea, the show cheeps out and goes with a Green Minbari ex machina..)

It's made clear that Garibaldi DIDN'T think that he'd be able to ride it; he saw it more as a symbol and as a project to assemble and then be able to look at it as that, like people who restore cars that they never drive. He's specifically upset that Lennier finished since that was the main thing he actually wanted to do, and is shocked when Lennier says that it can be ridden. He even asks where Lennier got the gas, which leads to the reveal of the Minbari engine. Which isn't all that cheap an out because it makes sense that they would have such engines and Lennier is probably smart enough to know how to hook that all up together.

[factotum]

It's made clear in the episode that Zayn was Army, not Navy, and so wouldn't have been on the Line which was a space battle. Garibaldi wasn't on the Line either.

Plus there's the thing that less than 200 survived from the 20,000 people who stood on the Line, so they're going to be pretty rare!

[Darth Ultron]

A Voice in the Wilderness part 1

The crew discover that the planet the station orbits is not as empty as previously thought, but has ancient advanced technology.

The secondary plot involving the fighting on Mars and Garibaldi's quest to find Lise is in some ways more dramatic. We see how helpless our main characters feel, since they are so far away from the actual situation. While it's a little contrived for Garibaldi to suddenly realize he made a mistake in leaving Lise, it's also pretty realistic for him to have figured he could fix that mistake anytime - but now maybe he's run out of time.

Earthgov is moving quickly to put down the rebellion, and we get reports that hundreds, if not thousands, of people have been injured in the fighting. How many Mars citizens do want independence from Earth? Will Earthgov manage to quash the rebellion?

Things that don't make Sense

*Starfury towing-Odd that B5 does not have a ''Tow Ship'' or a ''Rescue Recovery Ship''. You would think that would be very basic.

*Missile Damage-So the missile hits the survey shuttle, does not explode and like bends a tail fin? That's it? Not very good missiles.....

*Missile Command-Er the ''defense'' of the planet is to just shoot ''dumb'' missiles up into the atmosphere?

*Command Crew Away Team-So Sinclair and Invonava head down to check out the planet...alone. You'd think this would be a job for just about anyone else.

*Oddly, you'd think B5 would have a couple atmosphere starfries.

A Voice in the Wilderness part 2

*The interaction between Sinclair and Pierce was interesting. Despite them being fellow Earth Force officers, Sinclair was furious at Pierce's presence - not Pierce himself, but the military force he represented. This is interesting coming from a soldier, and I think it shows how much Sinclair has taken to his role as a diplomat, trying to think of peaceful resolutions first. He's starting to see Earth Force as a possible impediment to diplomatic goals.

*Garibaldi finally gets in touch with Lise on Mars. She was injured in the fighting, but will recover. Garibaldi starts pouring out his feelings, telling her it was a mistake for him to leave her - he even seems willing to go back to Mars from her. Lise seems to know what he's going to say, but can't stop him at first. She says that she's married and is expecting a child. Garibaldi is crushed

*Earth Hours-The aliens give the humans ''ten of your Earth hours'' to leave....lol.

*The Hyperion-Is a carrier? It does not look that big? Where does it store a wing of starfuries? Also the ship puts on a very poor showing for a war ship...but then it is just a heavy cruiser. And it is an older ship too.


*Chicken or the Egg-So was Babylon 5 built in orbit around Epeslion 3 because the Great Machine was there? Or was the Great Machine put there as they knew Babylon 5 would be there someday?

Spoiler: Well..

Show

We know Valen is Sinclair, so he'd know all about what happens in 2258. The question is that did he set all or some of this up? If he knew, the Vorlons know, or Valen could have told them. So was it all a set up to make sure in 2258 Epsilon 3 is in neutral space and gets chosen as the spot to build the Babylon stations?

Things that don't make Sense

*Centari Shuttle?-Odd the Centari ship looks a lot like the Earth shuttle. Or did Earth buy them from Centari Ford or something?

*Ace Londo-Londo is a combat fighter pilot? Londo?

*Missing in Action-Where is G'kar?


Final-A, It's as good as season one gets.

[tomandtish]

Things that don't make Sense

*Centari Shuttle?-Odd the Centari ship looks a lot like the Earth shuttle. Or did Earth buy them from Centari Ford or something?

Since the Centauri were the first race to make open contact with humanity, giving them jumpgate and medical tech, it's not unreasonable that Earth might have some designs that resemble Centauri design. (where they don't care about having the ability to rotate for gravity).

*Ace Londo-Londo is a combat fighter pilot? Londo?

Since all Centauri nobility are supposed to undergo military training, it's not that surprising that he's was a pilot when he was younger. Don't forget, he's also supposed to be an expert swordsman. But we're seeing an older Londo now. He was born in 2201 so he's 56-57 in earth years, which even then seems to have him comfortably middle-aged. (Interestingly, one of the few cases where the actor is playing someone who is supposed to be OLDER than he is by a fair amount at the time, about 14 years).

And remembering how Centauri brag, their definitions of expert and ours may not be the same. He supposedly did great things at Frallis XII, but since we have no info on who they were up against, it could be the equivalent of F-35s vs bi-planes.

[factotum]

I don't think it's that unreasonable to use a Starfury for towing another ship--if you look at the way the Starfury is designed, with the engines way out on the ends of the "wings", it's pretty much a perfect layout for that. As a fighter it will presumably also have fairly powerful engines. It might well be that they designed it with this dual role in mind so as to not have to build separate ships.

[Darth Ultron]

Since the Centauri were the first race to make open contact with humanity, giving them jumpgate and medical tech, it's not unreasonable that Earth might have some designs that resemble Centauri design. (where they don't care about having the ability to rotate for gravity).

I do agree it makes sense.

Since all Centauri nobility are supposed to undergo military training, it's not that surprising that he's was a pilot when he was younger. Don't forget, he's also supposed to be an expert swordsman. But we're seeing an older Londo now. He was born in 2201 so he's 56-57 in earth years, which even then seems to have him comfortably middle-aged. (Interestingly, one of the few cases where the actor is playing someone who is supposed to be OLDER than he is by a fair amount at the time, about 14 years).

It's just too bad the show did not fill in the history. And I think after five seasons, we still don't know. There have been whole Londo shows where they could have tossed in his history...like when he was with that young dancer.

I don't think it's that unreasonable to use a Starfury for towing another ship--if you look at the way the Starfury is designed, with the engines way out on the ends of the "wings", it's pretty much a perfect layout for that. As a fighter it will presumably also have fairly powerful engines. It might well be that they designed it with this dual role in mind so as to not have to build separate ships.

Sure a Starfury can do the job....but still you'd think B5 would have a Search and Rescue ship and crew. When an accident happens at sea, you don't send out the combat ready Blackhawks or F-22's, you send out the Rescue Helicopter with all sorts of rescue gear and medics.

[Cikomyr]

Also, why should B5 have atmospheric fighters? They are in space, expect to fight in space, and the only atmospheric battlefield anywhere near is a strategically useless planet that you can concede without losing any sleep over it.

If its discovered that a tier party developped a base on the planet (for whatever reason), just call in the EarthForce cavalry that has Atmospheric Striking capability for your 1-shot needs.

[Algeh]

It's just too bad the show did not fill in the history. And I think after five seasons, we still don't know. There have been whole Londo shows where they could have tossed in his history...like when he was with that young dancer.

We do get bits of Londo's personal history here and there. "Knives" had quite a bit of it, for starters. Also "The War Prayer" and "Soul Mates" come to mind as places where we learn more about Londo's past, and maybe that one weird episode in 5th season that I don't remember the details of nearly as well because...well...5th season.

[Cikomyr]

I have to say, i always liked the Captain Pierce character. Makes for an interesting Jarhead, and also points out that Earth doesnt have a silly Prime Directive.

[Olinser]

A Voice in the Wilderness part 1

The crew discover that the planet the station orbits is not as empty as previously thought, but has ancient advanced technology.

The secondary plot involving the fighting on Mars and Garibaldi's quest to find Lise is in some ways more dramatic. We see how helpless our main characters feel, since they are so far away from the actual situation. While it's a little contrived for Garibaldi to suddenly realize he made a mistake in leaving Lise, it's also pretty realistic for him to have figured he could fix that mistake anytime - but now maybe he's run out of time.

Earthgov is moving quickly to put down the rebellion, and we get reports that hundreds, if not thousands, of people have been injured in the fighting. How many Mars citizens do want independence from Earth? Will Earthgov manage to quash the rebellion?

Things that don't make Sense

*Starfury towing-Odd that B5 does not have a ''Tow Ship'' or a ''Rescue Recovery Ship''. You would think that would be very basic.

*Missile Damage-So the missile hits the survey shuttle, does not explode and like bends a tail fin? That's it? Not very good missiles.....

*Missile Command-Er the ''defense'' of the planet is to just shoot ''dumb'' missiles up into the atmosphere?

*Command Crew Away Team-So Sinclair and Invonava head down to check out the planet...alone. You'd think this would be a job for just about anyone else.

*Oddly, you'd think B5 would have a couple atmosphere starfries.

A Voice in the Wilderness part 2

*The interaction between Sinclair and Pierce was interesting. Despite them being fellow Earth Force officers, Sinclair was furious at Pierce's presence - not Pierce himself, but the military force he represented. This is interesting coming from a soldier, and I think it shows how much Sinclair has taken to his role as a diplomat, trying to think of peaceful resolutions first. He's starting to see Earth Force as a possible impediment to diplomatic goals.

*Garibaldi finally gets in touch with Lise on Mars. She was injured in the fighting, but will recover. Garibaldi starts pouring out his feelings, telling her it was a mistake for him to leave her - he even seems willing to go back to Mars from her. Lise seems to know what he's going to say, but can't stop him at first. She says that she's married and is expecting a child. Garibaldi is crushed

*Earth Hours-The aliens give the humans ''ten of your Earth hours'' to leave....lol.

*The Hyperion-Is a carrier? It does not look that big? Where does it store a wing of starfuries? Also the ship puts on a very poor showing for a war ship...but then it is just a heavy cruiser. And it is an older ship too.


*Chicken or the Egg-So was Babylon 5 built in orbit around Epeslion 3 because the Great Machine was there? Or was the Great Machine put there as they knew Babylon 5 would be there someday?

Spoiler: Well..

Show

We know Valen is Sinclair, so he'd know all about what happens in 2258. The question is that did he set all or some of this up? If he knew, the Vorlons know, or Valen could have told them. So was it all a set up to make sure in 2258 Epsilon 3 is in neutral space and gets chosen as the spot to build the Babylon stations?

Things that don't make Sense

*Centari Shuttle?-Odd the Centari ship looks a lot like the Earth shuttle. Or did Earth buy them from Centari Ford or something?

*Ace Londo-Londo is a combat fighter pilot? Londo?

*Missing in Action-Where is G'kar?


Final-A, It's as good as season one gets.

It's not a carrier, but even in the current era some Navy non-carrier ships can carry certain air platforms (usually helicopters). The large amphibious assault ships aren't actually classified as carriers but they have plane runways and carry smaller wings of aircraft.

Given runway space obviously isn't an issue in space and they need a docking bay anyway, it makes sense that it has at least one fighter bay and a small Starfury complement, but it doesn't have very many.

Towing with a Starfury isn't odd at all. They're disabled, they don't know if they're going to be in danger, so they need them back as fast as possible. Obviously they would have dedicated tow ships but they are going to be significantly slower than fighters. They send the ships that are going to get them out of potential danger the fastest.

[Darth Ultron]

Also, why should B5 have atmospheric fighters?

Well, you could say ''Why does B5 have atmospheric shuttles?'' There is ''nowhere'' around to land them and they ''would not need too'', but they have them.

[Jallorn]

Well, you could say ''Why does B5 have atmospheric shuttles?'' There is ''nowhere'' around to land them and they ''would not need too'', but they have them.

Except I'd expect that shuttles, not being a piece of specialized, precision-engineered, military technology, are more versatile. I'd expect that whatever company makes transport shuttles makes them rated for space and atmosphere so as to sell to more people without the complication of making an additional manufacturing process for space-only shuttles.

[Rodin]

Except I'd expect that shuttles, not being a piece of specialized, precision-engineered, military technology, are more versatile. I'd expect that whatever company makes transport shuttles makes them rated for space and atmosphere so as to sell to more people without the complication of making an additional manufacturing process for space-only shuttles.

I'd say the main difference is that transport ships are expected to off-load passengers. There's two ways you can do that - you can either have a dedicated space craft that drops the passengers off on a space station and then transshipped down to the surface, or you can just deliver them straight to the surface. A space station would make a certain degree of sense since you can get the passengers more directly to their locations from orbit, but that does require an additional set of spacecraft that explicitly just trundle between the space station and ground-based spaceports. It's likely cheaper to have the transport vessels be capable of making the landing at hubs on the planet themselves and then use pure atmospheric craft to ferry them to their ultimate destination. The less ships you have burning fuel to get out of a planet's gravity well, the better.

For space fighters, they have no need to enter atmosphere at all. Heck, there's no real reason for conventional atmospheric air support fighters. Once you control the orbitals, that's pretty much game/set/match for any sizable ground force. Anything small enough to avoid notice from space (guerilla fighters, etc) would need specialized air support to go after them anyway.

[factotum]

Obviously they would have dedicated tow ships but they are going to be significantly slower than fighters. They send the ships that are going to get them out of potential danger the fastest.

Not to play devil's advocate here, but in space how fast a ship can go depends entirely on how powerful its engines are compared to the mass of the craft. By definition, any craft that is expected to be able to tow another one is going to have powerful engines, so there's no reason why a tow ship would be slower than a Starfury in a straight line.

[Darth Ultron]

It's not a carrier, but even in the current era some Navy non-carrier ships can carry certain air platforms (usually helicopters). The large amphibious assault ships aren't actually classified as carriers but they have plane runways and carry smaller wings of aircraft.

Given runway space obviously isn't an issue in space and they need a docking bay anyway, it makes sense that it has at least one fighter bay and a small Starfury complement, but it doesn't have very many.

Well, my question is where is it? The Hyperion is not all that big, and does not have a nice big box like ''hanger'' the destroyers do.

Towing with a Starfury isn't odd at all. They're disabled, they don't know if they're going to be in danger, so they need them back as fast as possible. Obviously they would have dedicated tow ships but they are going to be significantly slower than fighters. They send the ships that are going to get them out of potential danger the fastest.

The tow ship can't be all that slow, in space.

I'd say the main difference is that transport ships are expected to off-load passengers. .

Passengers on B5 go from a ship to the station or station to a ship. There is no planet involved. So, no need for an atmospheric shuttle. Just them ugly 'box' shuttles.

[Cikomyr]

Speed is irrelevant in space. Accelleration matters. A ship can reach any speed, but comparative accel is what determines the speed of your speed.

Starfury being able to pull impressive manoeuvers in space probably mean they have massive Delta-v capabilities. I dont see why such massive acceleration power couldn't be used to tug stuff. In factz what would restrict a Starfury's manoeuvrability would be the inertial forces impacting the pilot, so the ship couldn't go at max Acceleration.

With more mass, the Starfury could probably use more of its boosters than in combat.

[Darth Ultron]

Bablyon Squared

Babylon 4 makes an appearance from the past.

The secondary plot in this episode involved Delenn taking a trip to meet up with the Gray Council on their headquarters ship. It's time to choose a new leader. They have chosen her. She does not accept.

*Everything in it's Place and Time- So again, the question is having the Babylon stations in orbit around Epeslion 3, where the great machine is, all part of a plan? It is just way too much of a coincidence that the planet has the great machine and the Babylon stations are in the same place. It only makes sense if someone had it all planned out.

Spoiler: Afterall

Show

We know it's the Great Machine that is making the Time Tunnel. And the Vorlons, and Sinclair/Valen know too.

*The Prophecy-So this is the Prophecy of Valen. Where 1,000 years ago Valen wrote down what he knew would happen in the future. But he watched Back to the Future enough to know ''one one should know too much about their destiny''. So he is light on the details and just does everything in the vague Nostradamus style. I wounder what all he wrote down....

*Time Flashes-too bad we don't see more of them. Garibaldi's flash of ''last man standing'' does seem to be an alternate timeline (I'd put it at the end of season 3).

Things that don't make Sense

*Starfury Scout-So, again, the starfury is used as a scout ship. But the starfury is a fighter, not a scout ship. It's starfury, not starscout. B5 should really have scoutship, a starscout, a ship dedicated to just sensors and exploration

*Sector 14-So at first everyone is like ''oh yea the far away boring uninteresting sector''. Then a couple minutes later it is like ''the super special sector where Bablyon 4 was''. So why did everyone ''forget'' sector 14 was special?

*Prisoner Zatherus-So did B4 security not search Zatherus and find the ''doo-hickey''(aka time stabelizer'')? And why would they not take it?

*The proof-So Major Krantz is all like ''Zatherus is my only proof and I must take him with us'', and like a second later a pole falls on Zatherus trapping him on the station...wow, what amazing luck.

Final-A, This is one of the classic, best episodes of the series. It takes the known mystery of B4's disappearance and extends it into a much more elaborate mystery of who took the station, exactly why, and when it will be used. We get all sorts of tantalizing hints, with Zathras's story of war, the appearance of The One, and then finally the revelation that an older Sinclair was involved. It's an especially absorbing episode if one is re-watching the series, because an experienced viewer knows that the other side of events will be seen in season 3.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• The Quality of Mercy
• Chrysalis

This week is also a good time to talk about Season 1 in a more general sense.

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

I heard no objections to continuing this pace for Season 2, so I have updated the first post with the Season 2 schedule.

[factotum]

Well, as far as season 1 goes, we have our first point where the plot has to change to suit Michael O'Hare's departure. I was never really too sure why he had to go--I don't think he turned in *that* bad a performance, but the studio suits apparently disagreed? It's pretty clear that Catherine Sakai was being set up as the wife who would go to Z'Ha'Dum, so the actress playing her got short shrift as well.

That's actually a shame, because to have a character we'd already met and got to know to some degree being corrupted by the Shadows would have had a much deeper impact than "Oh, here's Sheridan's wife, she's totally evil now by the way".

As for the episodes, we see the alien healing machine that will be so important near the end of Season 4 making its appearance. B5 did that better than any other series, IMHO--in Star Trek a device like that would be introduced for one episode and then promptly forgotten about forever, whereas in B5 it turns up again, and in such a heart-breaking way! Oh, and we also find out what Centauri male genitalia look like, although I'm not sure we wanted to know...

As for Chrysalis, I think this is only the second time we've seen Shadow vessels, and we get a much better idea of their destructive power compared to taking out the Raider ship earlier. We also see Vice President Clark's deadly rise to power, which leaves Garibaldi shot and having an operation to save his life. Sinclair was supposed to find out what happened to him at the Battle of the Line, but leaves it too late--Delenn is already in a cocoon when he gets there. One wonders exactly when that plot point would have been cleared up if Michael O'Hare had stayed on the show?

Oh, and we wave goodbye to the Narn cruiser that's been seen up until now--it will be replaced wholesale with the G'Quan in season 2, because apparently JMS thought it looked "too generic". I think that was one of the few times he made an error, he should have had both cruisers alongside each other in season 2 with the older one being gradually phased out, rather than having them entirely replaced in between seasons.

[Cikomyr]

I think this episode is the Swan Song of one of Babylon 5's greatest tragedy. Yes, beyond the loss of Sinclair and Talia Winter's actors.

Its the last episodes of Na'Toth original actress. She refused to come back because of the overly demanding makeup (I think it was affecting her health), and her replacement just wasnt up to the original.

Thus, we lost Na'Toth after a handful of appearances in Season 2. I think JMS would have kept her around, and it would have been fantastic to see Na'Toth following with G'Kar evolution.

Edit: just to be certain I am clear. I think the tragedy comes mostly by the fact thst Na'Toth wasnt replaced the same way Sinclair or Talia was.