Harry Potter d20

[curtmack]

3) Magical Knowledge. The more you know, the more weapons you have at your beckon call.

Sorry, irrational pet peeve. I like your idea though.

[ravenkith]

[psychoticbarber]

A pet peeve that is also wrong.

Check your facts before you call some one out on their use of language. In this case, he's got the correct usage, and you've made a mistake.

Just one of my 'pet peeves'.

Really? ... Because I meant "Beck and call"... but if I was right, and have heretofore been wrong, I will happily remember that in the future.

Edit: According to this, I was wrong, he was right, and what I intended (beck and call) is the correct usage.

Edit x2: I am, at this juncture, officially dropping the conversation on "beckon call" and "beck and call"...it doesn't further the aims of this thread.

[Ditto]

It's cool, Ravenkith. We still have purple lightsabre to play with, a worthy phrase if ever any was.

I like your thinking, Zopz I'm debating the idea of Magic Stat class skills... I think if I go with the idea of Knacks (as a special ability for 1st level characters, or else a 1st level feat) it will halve the cost of Magic Skill ranks for any two classes. For the mundane skills, 4+Int sound about right. I do NOT want Magic Skill/Stat points to have anything to do with Int, though. I've decided to add in the Mental Stat bonuses to determining the total magic score for each discipline, but that's as far as I want them involved. (For instance, the stat will be Wandwork + Charms + Cha mod.) These casting levels, along with some sort of Year(level) limit, will determine what spells you can cast as per the table in my first post with sample spell lists. Handiwork in particular will benefit from leveling increases, since Potions, Herbology, and CoMC are more given to situational skill checks than Wandwork.

I'm thinking of redoing the level scale for 20 levels, 4 per year, from 3rd to 7the year. (Screw 1st and 2nd years. Seriously, did the Trio even cast magic then? You'd have to spend 6 levels with nothing but (equivalently) Mending, Light, and baby-Knock.) Everyone starts at 3rd year - this also allows us to start with all of the magic disciplines, which is just a bit tidier. You choose any 2 (or 3) of the electives (CoMC, Arith, A.Runes, Div, Muggle St.) as your 'class skills', and cannot put magic points in the other 2-3.

Experience point-wise, I'm thinking a slightly more dramatic scale for point allocations. Magic Stats (Wandwork et al.) and skills within the same category (Charms + Transfiguration + DADA etc.) cost as follows, per category:

Wandwork - 9 (stat), 2 (skills)
Handiwork - 6 (stat), 1 (skills)
Thinkwork - 2 (stat), 1/2 (skills)
Bookwork - 2 (stat), 1/2 (skills)

These numbers are tentative, since I'm trying to work out the balance of how many points to give at character creation and how many per level. You get one point in every Stat and Skill at creation for free. (You ignore points in unused electives, obviously.) Beyond that, you can put up to 3 points in any Stat, and 3 points in any skill. For a character with a mental stat array of 16-14-12 (in some order), the default level for any subject will thus be 1+1+(3/2/1) = 5/4/3. Ranks in Stat and Skill will probably add 2 or 3 more, with a max for any subject at 3+3+(3/2/1) = 9/8/7. The cap will raise one Skill point per level, and one Rank point per every... 2? Again, I'm working the balance still. I want the two options of how players might spend their points to be roughly equal (always leveling up the (expensive) Stats for a generalist, or focusing on skills for a specialist.) Feats will allow you to raise those caps, say by two points in a given skill or two. When I was trying to balance the costs for Wandwork alone, I found 15 points/level wasn't a terrible number. I'm going to play with my fancy little spreadsheet (it's admittedly a lot of math...) and see how the other three disciplines should factor in.

Obviously, the latter two disciplines aren't of any real use at present. I really want to make them somewhat desirable, because even though it's just a few points you'd be 'dumping' into them, students should be able to learn *something* from all areas of their curriculum. (A possiblity is some synergy with the Research skill, which should be somewhat necessary for learning any new spell.) Wandwork is the most expensive because it is the most versatile, but Handiwork should not be underestimated either.

I'll try to post some mock ups of focused vs. generalists at different levels later. (Actually, I'm going to be away for a weak, so *rather* later.) If anyone would like to help me out and play with my shiny Excel spreadsheet, it'd be might nifty of y'all. I'm just looking for people to try it out and see how it works out for them. If you'd like to see it, shoot me an e-mail and I'll get you one - hover247 (at) yahoo (dot) com.

psychoticbarber - I really like this. It certainly has the makings of some good duelling. There'll have to be some sort of BAB equivalent, mixed with the DADA rank. It doesn't make sense to go fully either way... This might also be a place to introduce saves. The defense bonus from d20 modern might be the ONE thing we can actually save from that system. Defense bonus, Reflex save, a new Dodge skill, something like that.

If it's a proper duel (and not being ambushed/surprise round), the Wizards' people came up with the idea of having immediate counterspells whenever you're knowingly attacked. You choose to dodge or defend, and make a Ref save (or whatever) to see if you're quick enough on the draw to bat the hex away or come up with a Protego or return the same hex. (As you leve, it will be beneficial to dodge, then counterjinx, then Protego, then block outright.) I think one of the coolest parts of the OotP movie's final duel was seeing wizards flick their wands to bat away incoming jinxes - just a great visual representation of what I see higher-level wizards doing, not consciously expending magic to actively block. That will be sort of reflected in the scale of success proposed above, as I understand it.

When multiple wizards are attacking one target, the target should have an 'iterative defense bonus'. Hagrid (frankly) sucks at magic, were he allowed to cast outright, and having a wand wouldn't be a big deal. But Bellatrix can duel three people at once, say. At the highest levels, an iterative defense would let you make multiple 'defenses of opportunity', fluffed as hitting all the incoming hexes on the same swing o' the bat or catching them in your Protego. And I'm not sure what you mean by 'the can only use one spell' - they must use the same spell, or they can only cast one at a time? It's fairly common sense that everyone gets to cast one at a time, at roughly the same speed; saying they have to shoot the same spell for increased effects isn't quite right. If all you're trying to do is stun, then yeah, you'll need stacking Stupefys. But using all different spells is Hilarity Ensues - remember at the end of OotP, when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle try to hex Harry in the back, half a dozen members of the DA hex them into pus-filled piles of goo-slugs with their special combination. This sort of thing is to be encouraged in Harry Potter d20.

[psychoticbarber]

And I'm not sure what you mean by 'the can only use one spell' - they must use the same spell, or they can only cast one at a time?

All I meant was that each attacker can only sling one spell at a time, as in:

Voldemort cannot use Avada Kedvra on Ron, Hermione AND Harry this turn; he has to pick one.

I'm pleased you liked the system. I just made a mechanic off the top of my head, and it'll probably definitely have to be edited to fit the rest of the system, but that's the flair of Potterbat.

But using all different spells is Hilarity Ensues - remember at the end of OotP, when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle try to hex Harry in the back, half a dozen members of the DA hex them into pus-filled piles of goo-slugs with their special combination. This sort of thing is to be encouraged in Harry Potter d20.

Absolutely! Sorry, I just wanted to make sure that people weren't going to have any possible way to munchkin "I throw three Avada Kedavras at Dumbledore!"

Edit: If we're still looking at the class system, we may want to have everyone enter a prestige class at level 8 (their magical profession). I mean things like Auror, Wandmaker, etc. Just a thought.

Edit x2: I'm also all for coming up with an entirely new system to support this. D20 is... probably not really going to cut it. Possibly a point-buy system would be good to keep PCs at a relatively balanced power-level, at least at first. A point-buy system also has the benefit of a more organic progression, rather than level-based.

[ravenkith]

Well, I'd be willing to assist in the creation of such a ruleset...

although I think a modification of d20 mechanics might be the best way to go.

Maybe something based off of the hero points system from Mutants & Masterminds.

Start with say, levels from a 1-7 set of base classes (they don't go any higher) and then move, (as you say) into one of the 'advanced classes' (prestige classes) that can be anywhere from 5-13 levels long.

I'd imagine that each level would represent the school year in which your character currently resides, and everything past level seven would represent independent study & real-life experience.

Every time you level up, you get certain basic things automatically, representing a general magical education, and based on which base class you pick. Lets say there are four types of base classes:

1. Tough,
2. Fast,
3. Smart, and
4. Charismatic.

Charisma is used to power spells, but intelligence is needed to learn them. Speed is used to dodge spells, but you have to be pretty tough to resist them if you can't get out of the way.

Each class ties to a specific stat, and each of those stats ties into magic directly somehow.

Each spell has an intelligence rating: a required INT modifier to learn it, going from 1-4.

Each spell also has a power rating, which is determined by the INT rating of the spell, and modified by your charisma...(for a normal human with an 18 CHA, the maximum would be 8).

This Power rating determines how hard the spell is to block or dodge, yielding the DC for the fortitude, will, or reflex save depending on whether the spell is single-target, area, or mind affecting.

Here's a bit more of a breakdown on the classes I was thinking of....

TOUGH (Hagrid):
Tough guys may not be the fastest or the smartest, or even the most likeable, but they are certainly the most likely to survive the attentions of other wizards. Tough heroes learn to resist spells, and can acquire the ability to use their fortitude save instead of their reflex or will saves. In addition, they bounce back from injury and incapacitation more rapidly than other wizards.

Possible benefits: Hard Enough (Fort instead of ref) Perseverance (Fort instead of Will), Rapid recovery (cut recovery times in half for status effects) rapid healing (cut healing times in half) etc., etc.

"I shouldn't have said that,"

FAST (Ron):
Fast wizards are quick on the draw, and in a duel, inevitably have the advantage against their opponents. The fast wizard specializes in recognizing the threat, and getting out of its way. This class can acquire the ability to dodge spells more efficiently, and are next to impossible to surprise. At higher levels, they can even extend their abilities to others. They are also often excellent quidditch players.

Possible Benefits: Uncanny Dodge I & II, Quick draw, Improved initiative, Speed bonus, Reactive Counterspell, Eyes and Ears (any ally within 15ft mayy use the Fast wizard's reflex save instead of their own).

"Look out!"

SMART (Hermione):
Smart wizards learn things faster than any other kind. They are also capable of reaching beyond what would normally be possible for even the magical world, eventually becoming able to invent new spells and learn things nobody else would even conceive of.

Possible benefits: Mental athlete (you have learned much and expanded your horizons. consider your intelligence modifier to be +1 for the purpose of being able to learn new spells) Booksmart (Pick one spell from the level above those you would normally be allowed to learn* and add i to those you know), Inventive (you have the creative spark needed to create new spells-see rules)

* Can be taken multiple times, there'll be extremely powerful spells (int rating 5, 6 and 7) at higher levels....1-4 are the only levels taught in school

"Write your own essay!"

CHARISMATIC (Harry):
The thing you do best is getting people to do what you want them to do. Whether it's because they like you, or you're just very good at manipulating, things just end up that way. Whatever it is, people want to be around you and make sure you stay happy.

Possible benefits: Friends in high places (pick three members of the Hogwarts staff. two are inclined to listen to you and like you, while the other is inclined to dislike you), Friends in low places (You have a friend and ally in a younger student), Shining Star (Everyone knows you. People who would like you, love you instead, People who would dislike you loathe you completely).

"I think I can tell the wrong kind for myself, thank you,"

So, for instance, Dark Lord becomes a prestige class specialized in acquiring followers, something like the thrallherd...but it requires you start off as a charismatic mage....which helps explain how voldemort was able to gather his inner core of followers originally...and dark lord turns their love into fear and obedience, obviously....

Just some ideas that have been kicking around in my head.

[psychoticbarber]

Those are pretty good classes. I don't want to hijack the project, but I think personally that given the base subject material, the PotteRPG (ewww, lol) would be better served by a system without levels.

I'll leave that there, though, for the people driving this thread to decide. If people want a longer, more reasoned argument, you'll have to wait for it to cool down here I can barely think.


I'm currently working on a thorough look at the magic of Harry Potter and how to make it RPG-Friendly. Something I've discovered:

There are only really 2 kinds of magic taught at Hogwarts that use a wand.

Transfiguration, and
Charms.

I've read on multiple fansites that basically anything that isn't Transfiguration is a Charm (or a Jinx or a Hex or a Curse, which seem to be negatively charged charms), DADA tends to actually be a look at technique rather than actual defense spells (which are probably charms), and Charms can do just about ANYTHING.

So I'm trying to develop a subschool system. Does anybody really know the difference between Jinxes, Hexes and Curses? I think that the major difference is intensity, but I'm not really positive.

In my article-y thingy (It's probably almost done and a link will get edited into this post once I'm done) I also talk about what I see the likely sorts of problems to be solved are (passing classes isn't one of them, I must admit).

Update Complete! Sending...

[Zopz]

Those are some good classes there. They may have the same name's as the old 6 but they are totally potterverse oriented.

PB: I don't think the whole thing about just trans and charms is right. Dada uses techniques like how to identify werewolfs, yes, but they have more defense and offense oriented charms than reg charms class. For example: Flitwick teaches things like aquamenti, wingardium leviosa, and fidelous, but Dada teaches protego, petrificus totalis and expeliarmus, which are charms but are geared towards defending.

EDIT: Jinxes are things that impair you a little(i.e Tarantalegra makes you dance uncontrollably but you can still function your upper body), Hexes are like negative versions of transfiguration(i.e bat bogey hex transfigures your bogeys into flying monsters, and the [B]hexes[B] the D.A, used on malcragoyle[cute name] transfigured then into slugs), and curses stay with you til the user dies or releases them(Crucio, Petrificus totalus).

[psychoticbarber]

PB: I don't think the whole thing about just trans and charms is right. Dada uses techniques like how to identify werewolfs, yes, but they have more defense and offense oriented charms than reg charms class. For example: Flitwick teaches things like aquamenti, wingardium leviosa, and fidelous, but Dada teaches protego, petrificus totalis and expeliarmus, which are charms but are geared towards defending.

Yeah. My point is that they're still charms, and under a magic system they should be classified as such. They're not taught in the charms CLASS, but they are still charms.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Agreed. So we now, the wand magics.

Charms
Jinxes Minor Ailments (Tarantalegro)
Healing/Repairing Repairs Ailments (Reparo)
Other Miscellaneous (Aguamenti)
Defensive Counterspells (Protego)

Transfiguration
Hexes Offensively Used Transfigurations (Bat Bogey Hex)
Other Miscellaneous (cant remember one of the top of my head)

and I'm pretty certain that Curses should fall under a different category.

[psychoticbarber]

Agreed. So we now, the wand magics.

Charms
Jinxes Minor Ailments (Tarantalegro)
Healing/Repairing Repairs Ailments (Reparo)
Other Miscellaneous (Aguamenti)
Defensive Counterspells (Protego)

Transfiguration
Hexes Offensively Used Transfigurations (Bat Bogey Hex)
Other Miscellaneous (cant remember one of the top of my head)

Under Transfig, I had,

* Alteration: This subschool alters the physical makeup of an object, like its appearance (this includes invisibility).
* Conjuration: This subschool deals with the creation of objects.
* Untransfiguration: Not really a subschool, but this deals with the reversal of transfiguration.
Edit: * Animation: This subschool deals with the animation of inanimate objects.

[Ditto]

I still cannot see the place of class in a Harry Potter game. The d20 Modern system always struck me as odd, insofar as it's considered an adaptation of D&D for a different setting. It's just not heroic. The combinations you draw from those classes are basically normal people. *Really cool* normal people, but normal people nonetheless.

Hagrid is the strong hero, yes, but he's not even a proper wizard and is not representative of... well... anyone. Harry's dominant stat, in my mind, is Wisdom. He certainly has Cha, and middling Int, but Wisdom - "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" - are about right for Harry. I wouldn't peg him as charismatic over wisdom...-ic... because his ability to lead depends a lot on having back-up and being forced into action - thorughout the series, he rarely accomplishes anything on his own, *if* he can get up the courage/organization to do it. (IMO, Hermione was definitely the leader in Book 7.) Ron is the worst excuse for a Fast Hero out there - he's not quick on the draw, he's not particularly good at duelling, and he's not stellar at Quidditch. Fred and George better fit this model - but they're more Charismatic. Or Smart. Sure, not everyone in Harry Potter is the same, and I want to maintain that - this should be done by the players, not by these vastly diverging classes. That's the same reason I wouldn't make magical ability reliant solely on mental stats. There are other ways to learn at Hogwarts.

Seven classes for seven years is difficult, since you'd be out of school in the blink of an eye, campaign-wise. Harry Potter is very much based in Hogwarts. It took them several thousand pages to get the series outside of Hogwarts at all, and then they went back. Once you graduate, things start looking a lot more like D&D experience based levels make plenty of sense; the core mechanic of Harry Potter, I feel, should be based around Harry Potter himself. We know rather a lot about him and consequently the school when compared to anything in the big bad adult world. Leveling shouldn't have to represent squishing dire rats or evil lords (most students got by without it just fine), it's a mechanical advancement in maturity.

The basic idea of Int learns spells, Cha powers them isn't a bad one, but it cuts Wis out of the picture entirely and doesn't take into account the other sorts of magic learning at Hogwarts. This system really has to feature all of the material you can learn there - otherwise, we can just make up the rules for duelling and be done with it.

All of the Hermione benefits would be great to adapt into this; Hagrid, not so much. Wizards bounce, and have Episkey and Skele-grow. They don't get terrifically fussed over mundane injury, honestly.

Jinxes, Hexes, and Curses are roughly in order of severity, but are fundamentally charms. The reason I split combat spells out of the Charms class is because you don't learn combat charms in Charms class, and you do so in DADA. Even the duelling spells we saw outright were taught by Lockhart and Snape - DADAers. Also, why wouldn't we divide these according to what class they're taught in? You don't learn how to cast 'charms' as such, you learn whichever item the teacher is offering that day. A big part of Harry Potter is *being taught* magic, not just looking it up off of a scroll and scribing into your spell book. DADA charms are different because they target people, and do so (almost exclusively) maliciously. It seems a pretty natural division.

EDIT: So you're going to put Jinxes and Hexes and Curses all in there, yes? Sounds like one half of your categories are also known as DADA... Might be a good place to split them off. Healing/repairing - Espiskey and most of the healing arts are Transfiguration-based. Invisibility is usually Charms - the closest way to accomplish this is a Disillusionment charm. It's very difficult to become invisible properly, and we haven't seen any example of it being done. I'm inclined to think an Invisibility Cloak is a Charmed item. If the item is bouncing in the air, it's charmed. If it's physically moving and wasn't before, that's transfiguration. Conjuration is unfortunately very difficult, it seems - 6th and 7th year stuff. Most charms are miscellaenous. The ones that aren't are combat oriented. That's as simple as it needs to be.

I think this cleavage between DADA charms and Charms charms is also (and most importantly) necessary for mechanics in a game like this. We can quibble about the more perfect way to match it to the books, and gods only know I'm a stickler for such things, but we're making a game system here. Changes - tweaks, bends, prods - have to be made to serve playability. I really think breaking down charms into further components will only serve to confuse, since Hex, Jinx, and Curse are attached to spells because they sounded nice to JKR. She talks about what she calls charms, versus spells, versus all other sorts of magic, and admits that here and there she's inconsistent for euphony's sake. We should just take the spell's effect for what it's worth and not take its name to heart.

On that note, I like your analysis of Plot at Hogwarts™. Any HP game will definitely be RP based, with the players figuring out plot points and putting things together (with brains, not Reparo, you pun-savvy jerks) rather than adventuring as such. Everyone always wants to get in on a Harry Potter game when they see one posted, because they - hell, *we* - all want to go to Hogwarts. Then they realize that it's a school... and you have to make your own fun in ways that doesn't involve a) killing orcs and b) stopping the Ultimate Evil™ every day. GMs and student-players would be well served by thinking about the game from a metagame standpoint as you lay out, so everyone knows what they have to bring to the table.

[psychoticbarber]

Jinxes, Hexes, and Curses are roughly in order of severity, but are fundamentally charms. The reason I split combat spells out of the Charms class is because you don't learn combat charms in Charms class, and you do so in DADA. Even the duelling spells we saw outright were taught by Lockhart and Snape - DADAers. Also, why wouldn't we divide these according to what class they're taught in? You don't learn how to cast 'charms' as such, you learn whichever item the teacher is offering that day. A big part of Harry Potter is *being taught* magic, not just looking it up off of a scroll and scribing into your spell book. DADA charms are different because they target people, and do so (almost exclusively) maliciously. It seems a pretty natural division.

EDIT: So you're going to put Jinxes and Hexes and Curses all in there, yes? Sounds like one half of your categories are also known as DADA... Might be a good place to split them off. Healing/repairing - Espiskey and most of the healing arts are Transfiguration-based. Invisibility is usually Charms - the closest way to accomplish this is a Disillusionment charm. It's very difficult to become invisible properly, and we haven't seen any example of it being done. I'm inclined to think an Invisibility Cloak is a Charmed item. If the item is bouncing in the air, it's charmed. If it's physically moving and wasn't before, that's transfiguration. Conjuration is unfortunately very difficult, it seems - 6th and 7th year stuff. Most charms are miscellaenous. The ones that aren't are combat oriented. That's as simple as it needs to be.

I think this cleavage between DADA charms and Charms charms is also (and most importantly) necessary for mechanics in a game like this. We can quibble about the more perfect way to match it to the books, and gods only know I'm a stickler for such things, but we're making a game system here. Changes - tweaks, bends, prods - have to be made to serve playability. I really think breaking down charms into further components will only serve to confuse, since Hex, Jinx, and Curse are attached to spells because they sounded nice to JKR. She talks about what she calls charms, versus spells, versus all other sorts of magic, and admits that here and there she's inconsistent for euphony's sake. We should just take the spell's effect for what it's worth and not take its name to heart.

Haha, that's more than fair. Part of the problem is that JKR wrote fiction, it's all sorta weird. I'll put my weight (such as it is) behind the classes-based magic system. For the game you're right, it probably makes more sense.

On that note, I like your analysis of Plot at Hogwarts™. Any HP game will definitely be RP based, with the players figuring out plot points and putting things together (with brains, not Reparo, you pun-savvy jerks) rather than adventuring as such. Everyone always wants to get in on a Harry Potter game when they see one posted, because they - hell, *we* - all want to go to Hogwarts. Then they realize that it's a school... and you have to make your own fun in ways that doesn't involve a) killing orcs and b) stopping the Ultimate Evil™ every day. GMs and student-players would be well served by thinking about the game from a metagame standpoint as you lay out, so everyone knows what they have to bring to the table.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

Edit: As for the class-based system, I agree that it doesn't fit. What I see is more like a (simplified, dear lord) version of GURPS or the Hero System. Everything is worth a certain number of points (more useful skills cost more points), and every character gets a certain number of points to spend. The "intrepid heroes" get more points to spend than the NPC mooks because, really, it's more interesting when the intrepid heroes are awesome.

[Ditto]

Heh, I got confused for a sec when you used 'class' in both ways...

As RP-heavy as HP will necessarily be, the freewheelingness (good word? Yes?) of GURPS is a bit to broad, frankly it's *extremely* breakable. In a special ops GURPS game I played, one guy could automatically beat any electronics system, another dual-wielded pistols and had a cape "Because it was AWESOME!" and got away with it on missions, and *I* could turn into a squirrel. (Bet you didn't even know there *were* commando squirrel transformers, didja?) You need differentiated categories of points with which to buy things - skills and magic, most importantly here. (I'm a fan of rolling/point buy for CharGen... open-ended point systems have a MIN-MAX ME! sign pinned to their backs.)

Harry Potter lives in a ranked society (it's a school!), and the vestiges of D&D are well suited to moderating this environment. D&D's leveling is exactly the right mechanic, even if the fluff differs (time vs. orc heads), for controlling everyone's desire to build an unstoppable 12-year-old dueller, or the Kid Viscious with a herd of Crumple-Horned Snorkacks doing his bidding, or the first year with unconscionable amounts of skill in Potionmaking kicking your butt with some veritaserum. School is *accustomed* to people misbehaving (even with magic), and keeps the kids in line enough that stepping out of line is ultimately the equivalent of TPing Slytherin.

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS - itty bitty living space.

[psychoticbarber]

Heh, I got confused for a sec when you used 'class' in both ways...

As RP-heavy as HP will necessarily be, the freewheelingness (good word? Yes?) of GURPS is a bit to broad, frankly it's *extremely* breakable. In a special ops GURPS game I played, one guy could automatically beat any electronics system, another dual-wielded pistols and had a cape "Because it was AWESOME!" and got away with it on missions, and *I* could turn into a squirrel. (Bet you didn't even know there *were* commando squirrel transformers, didja?) You need differentiated categories of points with which to buy things - skills and magic, most importantly here. (I'm a fan of rolling/point buy for CharGen... open-ended point systems have a MIN-MAX ME! sign pinned to their backs.)

Harry Potter lives in a ranked society (it's a school!), and the vestiges of D&D are well suited to moderating this environment. D&D's leveling is exactly the right mechanic, even if the fluff differs (time vs. orc heads), for controlling everyone's desire to build an unstoppable 12-year-old dueller, or the Kid Viscious with a herd of Crumple-Horned Snorkacks doing his bidding, or the first year with unconscionable amounts of skill in Potionmaking kicking your butt with some veritaserum. School is *accustomed* to people misbehaving (even with magic), and keeps the kids in line enough that stepping out of line is ultimately the equivalent of TPing Slytherin.

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS - itty bitty living space.

Ennnnnh open ended point buys just need more GM control . But it's your puppy not mine. I happen to have never run into horrible min-maxing in my Hero games, BUT I carefully pick my players and I'm not afraid to say "no".

You are correct that it is *extremely* breakable, I'll definitely grant you that. And where is a first year going to get the ingredients for veritaserum?

In all seriousness, though, getting all your new magic once a year is a little...awkward, if we're going for the one level/year of schooling direction. I would advocate a point buy like the D&D skill system, with a "max ranks/level" idea, letting players choose where their strengths are but never giving them enough points to be good at everything.

Pulling this off the top of my head (again):

Characters are given X number of magic proficiency points at the beginning of the summer, and the maximum number of proficiency points increases by whatever scale is decided upon.

Spoiler

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Example: 1st year, well rounded wizard.
Transfig: 3 ranks (Max 5 across the board)
Charms: 2 ranks
DADA: 3 ranks
Potions: 4 ranks
Herb: 3 ranks

At Hallowe'en, the character gets 1-5 new proficiency points (depending on their actions over the first quarter), and may increase the maximum on TWO magical skills by ONE point.

Spoiler

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Example: 1st year, well rounded wizard after hallowe'en, +3 skill points

Transfig: 3 ranks (Max 5)
Charms: 2 ranks (Max 5)
DADA: 3 ranks (Max 5)
Potions: 6 ranks (Max 6)
Herb: 4 ranks (Max 6)

I'll admit, it's not great, but it provides a mechanic for during-the-year advancement, which I think is important. You could also stipulate that the difference between the highest skill and the lowest skill couldn't be more than 5, or something like that, forcing the character to improve in a slightly more well-rounded fashion.

Hitting third year would bring new skills to spend points on (Care of Magical Creatures, Muggle Studies, etc), and 6 and 7th year would bring greater specialization (improved maximums in the areas you continue in).

It needs a bunch of work, but I like something like that for magical advancement.

[Zopz]

Ha, I hope everyone got that aladdin reference by ditto.

Anywho, that skill system sounds pretty good. If the creator decides to just use those skills (Dada, Comc, Charms ect.) and just take away all other rpg related skills(Spot, Listen, ect) and just add a few HP related non-magic skills(Quidditch skills, knowledge of hogwarts secret passage ways) that might just work out(cause seriously, who in real life improves their spot skill ). Give the player x amount of magic skill points at creation , and more after halloween, christmas and easter, then if they decide they want to exchange magic skill points for certain mundane but potter related skill points(say in third year Lisa trys out for the Quid team and makes it, she can exchange 1 magic point for say 10 quiddich related points[seeker, chaser, flying(broom), ect)

[Ditto]

I'd recommend having some mundane skill points, too, cuz you never know when you'll need to search a room or listen for Filch coming around the corner. Probably something like 4+Int. Quidditch would be a mundane skill.

1 level/year is indeed too shallow an advancement; that's why I'm pushing a 20 level system, 4 levels for 3rd through 5th year. (I didn't make a chart for this one in my post above, so I guess it didn't stick out.) Advancement during the year is indeed terrifically important, since you need to stretch an HP game over only 7 (well, 5) years. Starting at Third Year avoids having to suddenly put points in things you haven't been developing, and nobody has ever done anything worthwhile in their first two years. Seriously. ::nods:: The skill caps would rise at intervals throughout the year, allowing increased proficiency in a limited number of things, getting better at skills you've already learned. I agree with your caps, roughly (starting Magic at max 3 in Stat, 3 in Skill). Every other level during the year (The Christmas one) would bring some other perk - a new spell/potion/etc., a bonus feat for specialization, random other magical skill point (Quidditch, research bonus, etc.)

[psychoticbarber]

I'd recommend having some mundane skill points, too, cuz you never know when you'll need to search a room or listen for Filch coming around the corner. Probably something like 4+Int. Quidditch would be a mundane skill.

Oh absolutely. Definitely important to have skills like listen and hide

1 level/year is indeed too shallow an advancement; that's why I'm pushing a 20 level system, 4 levels for 3rd through 5th year. (I didn't make a chart for this one in my post above, so I guess it didn't stick out.) Advancement during the year is indeed terrifically important, since you need to stretch an HP game over only 7 (well, 5) years.

Oh, is there no intention to see what becomes of our intrepid heroes after they leave school?

Either way, doesn't matter to me, it just makes a difference on how one approaches the game.

[Ditto]

Well, you only learn spells etc. regularly when you're being taught it. How many thesis papers do you write after you're out of school eh? And after level 20? That's what we call epic. At that point, they can start earning experience-point-based levels. Profession: MoM Bureaucrat XP, here I come!

Okay seriously, I'm leaving for vacation this time.

[psychoticbarber]

Well, you only learn spells etc. regularly when you're being taught it. How many thesis papers do you write after you're out of school eh? And after level 20? That's what we call epic. At that point, they can start earning experience-point-based levels. Profession: MoM Bureaucrat XP, here I come!

"Who am I? WHO AM I!? I am Arthur Weasley, EPIC BUREAUCRAT!"

Okay seriously, I'm leaving for vacation this time.

Enjoy!

[Druid_lord]

starting at 3rd year seems to be the general consensus, am i right?

[psychoticbarber]

starting at 3rd year seems to be the general consensus, am i right?

As far as I can see, yes.

[Ashtar]

Basically, what you are looking for is an adaptation of Ars Magica to Harry Potter.
The system features flaws and benefits (fey - veela blood), spontaneous casting and known spells, power levels, unlimited casting (although a spell too powerful might tire you out), a dueling system.

[psychoticbarber]

Basically, what you are looking for is an adaptation of Ars Magica to Harry Potter.
The system features flaws and benefits (fey - veela blood), spontaneous casting and known spells, power levels, unlimited casting (although a spell too powerful might tire you out), a dueling system.

That might be nice. I think the others are fairly set on a d20 variant, but I like it from your description. I'd have to check it out to give you a better opinion.

[Ditto]

If I ever make a character in The Town, it will be an epic-level Expert. He's got double the max ranks in Disable Device, Open Lock, and Profession: Locksmith - not good for much, but if he so much as looks at a padlock it jumps up and runs screaming.

Ars Magica does indeed sound close to what we're looking for. I'm not familiar with it either, but someone with knowledge of it could certainly help us adapt it in a D&D way.

Not to steal TD's thunder, but I think I might start my own thread purely for bookkeeping purposes, to organize how I'm seeing this shaping up. I have things scattered across dozens of posts, and an index like this thread's first post would be handy. That'll be a fun project over the next few days...

[Druid_lord]

I found a nice wand generator, which had development help by the guy who played olivander, this could give us some new core and wand ideas.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I am on vacation at the moment, but when i get back (23rd) I will take this all, compile it, and see what looks like it will work, what is the current consensus, And update it as appearing. This way, people can really see whats's happening to the Potterverse.

[psychoticbarber]

Well, this sounds excellent thus far. This is essentially a bump, but I *am* excited to see it getting all organized and put together.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

hm... curses do seem a bit spread out. I see the Imperius Curse as a charm, while some others seem like transfigurations, and most seem like neither.

[Ditto]

Curses, hexes, and jinxes are charms variants. Basically, anything you can fire from your wand is a charm. (Like 'Anything that ends in -ly is an adverb', that sort of rule.) I can't think of any projectile transfigurations, off the top of my head. It's the sort of thing you need to 'draw' with your wand, in my mind.

I've begun my d20 Harry Potter compilation, in the thread now linked in my sig. Please duck over there and scan through the slightly-organized version, and let me know what you think is workable. Thanks!

Also, anyone know a good way of hosting documents online? I'd like to distribute my character sheet in a way that doesn't require e-mail. Would that google thing work for Excel files, psychoticbarber?