I Finally Read Start Of Darkness *contains SoD spoilers*

[SilverCacaobean]

Let me start by saying, it is very good work. I think I've seen the Giant claim somewhere that it's his most complete work, or something along these lines, and now I can see why.

The story flows well and has some great dialogue. We see Redcloak (or, as I like to call him now, "Sunk-Cost Fallacy guy") gradually change from the one who "wants to serve the community in some small way" and who snaps out of whatever divine trance he was in, when he first wore the cloak and learned about the plan, out of concern for his brother,

Spoiler: Don't open if you intend to read the book, Story Climax

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to someone who murdered the same brother for the same plan (much) later and

to what he had become at the beginning of OotS. The interactions and conversations between Redcloak and his brother get increasingly interesting as Right-eye matures and Redcloak doesn't. Even Xykon gets interesting dialogue with all he says to Redcloak at the end and that coffee thing.... Speaking of which, well done to the Giant for making someone irredeemably evil and a complete monster, yet managing to show him lose his humanity. Still, in spite of showing us about Xykon too and a few stuff about Eugene (whom I found surprisingly sympathetic, same for Redcloak), I think this is mostly Redcloak's and his brother's story.

All that said, I didn't post to kiss the Giant's ass, it's just that despite all that, I'm not sure I'm ever going to read it again. I didn't take Miko's warning seriously and look at me now! Or the other warning in the introduction. I've read and seen my fair share of bleak, gruesome and dark stuff but for some reason, this one hit a nerve... I don't know, I found it very, very depressing. I almost couldn't stomach it and nearly stopped reading. So, is it just me, or was this really dark? This work seems to me darker than others that are supposed to be darker than this! Darker than Vantablack, I tell you!

If it really is that dark and I'm not reading too much into it, I think it's mostly because of the following reason. It kept getting worse. It wasn't just a horrible situation that kept being horrible. It was a bad situation with some horrible stuff here and there, that was slowly becoming horrible, with a bit of hope near the end, that was only there to be crushed. So maybe it's not the horrible-ness that makes us feel bad but the derivative of the horrible-ness with respect to story progress which is positive in this story.

Oh, I'm starting to understand what Girard's problem was with the paladins and why he was paranoid. Though, I'll admit his idea of having a family whose members have kids and disappear with them, isn't the epitome of sanity.

What do you think? Does anyone else feel the same way about SoD?

Though I have to admit it gives insight into Redcloak's character, especially post eye-loss. If only for that reason, I would recommend to anyone who can only buy one OotS book, to buy this one.

By the way, can any D&D playing people here tell me what was that smite thing that Redcloak did on the Paladin that smashed his head to pieces? I only found Holy Smite and I don't think that's it.

[Kish]

Smite is the granted power of the Destruction Domain, which Redcloak certainly has (he couldn't cast Disintegrate as a cleric spell without it).

Yes, that's Start of Darkness for you. As someone described it, a Greek tragedy in comic form. Rich himself commented (when someone suggested a prequel focusing on Haerta, Ganonron, and/or Jephton) that Redcloak is the main character and Xykon, as he is in the main comic, the antagonist.

I doubt Girard was fussed about Soon's attitude toward goblins; he was ready enough to slaughter them and joke about Kraagor's bar tab with the rest of the Order of the Scribble.

[Xihirli]

Heart of Darkness is beautiful and I love it and I will love it every time I reread it.
I'll be completely honest, I love darkness. Always empathized with deep despair as long as it was presented well. And Redcloak being broken into an obedient slave was presented well.
Wrong-Eye is my favorite character in the comic, and I hope that his inevitable death will come at least with some realization of his actions.

[SilverCacaobean]

Smite is the granted power of the Destruction Domain, which Redcloak certainly has (he couldn't cast Disintegrate as a cleric spell without it).
...
I doubt Girard was fussed about Soon's attitude toward goblins; he was ready enough to slaughter them and joke about Kraagor's bar tab with the rest of the Order of the Scribble.

Thanks for the info. As for Girard, yeah I don't think it was about the goblins either, however it's evident how far the paladins were willing to go for the "greater good" and how fanatical some of them are, impaling kids and raving about the light, so even though Soon probably wasn't like that, his order was. (though he did sacrifice someone for the greater good too and we don't know the circumstances. Dorukan looked mad at him along Girard if I remember correctly, so his choice was probably not too straightforward.) It's reasonable to be apprehensive of people like that. It's just that he took it a wee bit too far, ending up being better at hiding the Gate's location from Soon than from Xykon.

Heart of Darkness is beautiful and I love it and I will love it every time I reread it.
I'll be completely honest, I love darkness. Always empathized with deep despair as long as it was presented well. And Redcloak being broken into an obedient slave was presented well.
Wrong-Eye is my favorite character in the comic, and I hope that his inevitable death will come at least with some realization of his actions.

Yes, he is a quite interesting character. I'm sure he will. I also think it's quite possible that he'll play a role in Xykon's downfall but I'm not sure how exactly. Especially after what Xykon did to the MitD (I wasn't expecting that one). The remnants of the sapphire guard are there in Kraagor's tomb with him, so maybe they'll eventually make peace with each other with both sides seeing their faults. But if this happens, it won't be anytime soon, it'll probably be in the last book.

[hroþila]

I doubt Girard was fussed about Soon's attitude toward goblins; he was ready enough to slaughter them and joke about Kraagor's bar tab with the rest of the Order of the Scribble.

There's a huge difference between killing combatants and massacring civilians.

[Ruck]

Yes, that's Start of Darkness for you. As someone described it, a Greek tragedy in comic form. Rich himself commented (when someone suggested a prequel focusing on Haerta, Ganonron, and/or Jephton) that Redcloak is the main character and Xykon, as he is in the main comic, the antagonist.

Yeah, I don't even think of it as "dark" because I don't think of tragedy as necessarily being dark, though some of my favorite works in the medium go to absolutely devastating places. (I'll recommend The Shield again to anyone who hasn't seen it.) Funnily enough, Redcloak reminds me of Forrest MacNeil from Review, the guy who was committed to one thing above all else and gradually threw away everything else in his life until he had nothing to show for it but that one thing.

Spoiler: Review

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and like Forrest, I wonder if by the end of the story Redcloak will have lost The Plan as well.

[pendell]

Well, the entire point of the OOTS story is to save the world from Xykon and Wrong-eye. So naturally, for things to get bad enough to need heroes, things have to have gone from bad to worse. Can't have a sunrise unless a sunset happened first. Start of Darkness is that sunset.

I actually find it some of the most mature and interesting of Rich's writing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Diashi]

"Sunk-Cost Fallacy guy"

HA! Yes, So very true.

Great stories are based around great characters. If someone doesn't read SoD they're not getting the real story about RC and X. If you just read the main comic, yes, they're evil, malicious, funny, and good antagonists. BUT, reading SoD turns RedCloak from just evil into something much more tragic. He's not in it just to release the snarl, he's in over his head, trapped not only by his faith in the Dark One but also trapped in his own self-loathing and Sunk-Cost by Xykon. Xykon, in SoD, shows you the true depths of his evil. From Murdering his family, to tearing his own skin off, to trapping Redcloak he just gets more and more evil. If you didn't read SoD you don't get just HOW Malevolent and ruthless he really is.

It's Akin to Darth Vader, and i can't believe i'm about to say this, in Episode III. In A New Hope Vader was just this specter of Malice. But Episode III makes him much more tragic and you realize he's trapped by his self-loathing and his relationship with Palpatine. EpII & EpIII also turns The Emperor from the Bigger Bad he was in ESB and RotJ into a true malicious force who was responsible for the manipulation of the entire galaxy to gain ultimate power and for the Eradication of the Jedi order from the face of the galaxy.

IMHO: SoD is the best prequel book.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, I don't even think of it as "dark" because I don't think of tragedy as necessarily being dark, though some of my favorite works in the medium go to absolutely devastating places. (I'll recommend The Shield again to anyone who hasn't seen it.) Funnily enough, Redcloak reminds me of Forrest MacNeil from Review, the guy who was committed to one thing above all else and gradually threw away everything else in his life until he had nothing to show for it but that one thing.

Spoiler: Review

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and like Forrest, I wonder if by the end of the story Redcloak will have lost The Plan as well.

In a certain sense, the events of the main strip actually give Redcloak some partial vindication, in that the The Plan has already, in some sense, succeeded: The goblins now control a relatively modern state on equal footing with civilised humanoids. By now, Redcloak only needs the Gates to either (A) avert his own sense of guilt, (B) gain an actively unfair advantage over other species, (C) placate Xykon, or (D) placate Xykon long enough to find a way to destroy him.

The dissonance between comedy and tragedy, often on literally the same page, does strike me on re-reading, but it's relatively from loopy contrivance and other of the author's bad habits, and the strength of it's arcs, psychological nuance and some surprisingly thoughtful reflection on the implications of mortality probably make up the difference. Start of Darkness might be his best work.

[Goblin_Priest]

SoD is the only book I bought, and did not regret it. I greatly enjoyed it.

[Doug Lampert]

In a certain sense, the events of the main strip actually give Redcloak some partial vindication, in that the The Plan has already, in some sense, succeeded: The goblins now control a relatively modern state on equal footing with civilised humanoids. By now, Redcloak only needs the Gates to either (A) avert his own sense of guilt, (B) gain an actively unfair advantage over other species, (C) placate Xykon, or (D) placate Xykon long enough to find a way to destroy him.

The dissonance between comedy and tragedy, often on literally the same page, does strike me on re-reading, but it's relatively from loopy contrivance and other of the author's bad habits, and the strength of it's arcs, psychological nuance and some surprisingly thoughtful reflection on the implications of mortality probably make up the difference. Start of Darkness might be his best work.

Yep, the 30,000 20,000 warriors that Redcloak found homeless and starving living peacefully in the mountains are now FAR better off and safer thanks to his benevolent help.

Just like Right Eye's village was saved from the horrors of being visited by the circus and treated on an equal footing with the human customers when they were stuffed into a dungeon to die. That Redcloak, he's a helper.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's unlikely we're ever going to get reliable stats on pre/post-conquest life expectancy and the like, but the former Azure City now has a great many goblin residents aside from the original invading force, and given they can now exploit humans for slave labour it seems unlikely their lives are more arduous. It's totally fair to critique RC for what he's done to innocent azurites that had absolutely nothing to do with the crusades, but I don't see that goblinkind are materially worse off for it.

[Goblin_Priest]

We know very little of how life was for the hobgoblin tribe that got drafted. However, we do know the goblin tribes were regularly "cleansed" by the azurites, and so, while many have suffered and died in the process, goblinkind now has eliminated that threat and acquired a stronghold to defend themselves from similar new enemies. I would say that the goblins, at the very least, are better off now with Gobbotopia.

While the hobgoblins... well, the lore does say they were solely created as canon fodder to feed xp to PC clerics. And with their +1 LA, they got screwed over way more than the goblins did. I don't think we have any reliable info telling us that this hobgoblin tribe had been living peacefully for a very long time. Peacefulness is not really in the Monster Manual entry for hobgoblins either.

They got screwed over a bit by Redcloak's tactics, sure. But the new trade agreements may very well leave them better off, at least materially, than their previous situation did.

As for the Circus... pretty sure that was gonna end well until, well, Xykon. ;)

[Gray Mage]

I'm very skeptical that the goblin tribes/villages that didn't harbor the guy trying to use the god-slaying monster to threaten the other gods had much trouble with azurites. Right-eye's village clearly didn't seem to. Right-eye's family went daily into the human town to see the circus apparently unmolested. Also, I think what the Hobgoblins had constituted something far bigger then a tribe.


We also haven't seen Goobotopia post Jirix taking over. Judging by the last panel he appears I think things could have taken a turn for the worse, although I'll admit at this point it's just conjecture.

[Lacuna Caster]

Distant goblins tribes may not have had much trouble with the azurites specifically, but the basic grievance of the Dark One is that goblinoids got the short end of the stick almost everywhere, both in terms of being stuck with lousy land and regularly raided by adventurers. Dying like fruit flies was pretty much the norm. They now have access to more land, better resources, trading opportunities, et cetera. That was the whole point.

EDIT: It's eminently possible that Gobtopia could still implode thanks to political dysfunction- it's not like violent revolts against wealthy elites haven't turned out badly in reality- and to the extent that he pays any attention to running the place Xykon has obviously not been the most savoury influence. But the goblins started off low enough on the ladder that most directions lead up.

[Goblin_Priest]

Just because we saw towns at a specific time where they were in peace does not mean they were always as portrayed in those scenes. I doubt the crimson mantle was in the same town all the time, and that it simply recuperated from the ethnic cleansing. More likely, its bearer escaped to another tribe, which itself then got "cleansed". The Saphire Guard were marauders that roamed the land for goblins to kill. That tribe was potentially quite peaceful until they got cleansed... it's not like they had the high level casters needed to pull off the ritual anyways.

The whole lore around the Snarl pretty much states black on white that goblin settlements were created for the sole purpose of being killed by "the good guys".

[pendell]

The whole lore around the Snarl pretty much states black on white that goblin settlements were created for the sole purpose of being killed by "the good guys".

While that is indeed exactly what Start of Darkness tells us, I have to point out that our source for this is Redcloak, who received all of this as a brainwashing/info dump directly from the Dark One directly into his teenaged brain.

So everything we're seeing is through the Dark One's vision. While it is plausible, and we've seen nothing in-comic to contradict it, the possibility still remains that the Dark One is flat out lying about the other gods' reasons for creating the goblins.

As counter evidence,

Spoiler

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The goblins in Right-eye's village seemed to be coexisting well enough with the local humans without drawing random adventuring parties out for easy XP.

The character mentioned in spoilers flatly calls out the Dark One; the Dark One's petty spite and thirst for vengeance has done as much or more to make the goblins' lives miserable as anything the other gods or humans have done.

Spoiler

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There's a certain irony to this. Right-eye and his village had achieved a semblance of the dream that he and Redcloak shared when they first recruited Xykon; a place in the sun as peers with the other races. What Redcloak dreamed about Right-eye did, at least in part, and he did it without sacrificing thousands of lives and enslaving a human city.

And all of Right-eye's achievements were undone by Xykon and Redcloak, who destroyed their village and forced them back into their traditional role of dungeon antagonist, where they all died.

Redcloak destroyed Right-eye's dreams, Right-eye's family, and Right-eye himself. All in service to the Plan.

So far, the Plan has had the opposite of its intended effect, and I have to wonder how much of that is mere coincidence and bad planning.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[martianmister]

Spoiler

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There's a certain irony to this. Right-eye and his village had achieved a semblance of the dream that he and Redcloak shared when they first recruited Xykon; a place in the sun as peers with the other races. What Redcloak dreamed about Right-eye did, at least in part, and he did it without sacrificing thousands of lives and enslaving a human city.

And all of Right-eye's achievements were undone by Xykon and Redcloak, who destroyed their village and forced them back into their traditional role of dungeon antagonist, where they all died.

Redcloak destroyed Right-eye's dreams, Right-eye's family, and Right-eye himself. All in service to the Plan.

So far, the Plan has had the opposite of its intended effect, and I have to wonder how much of that is mere coincidence and bad planning.

Spoiler

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Didn't Redcloak already give up the plan to live with his brother's family and village? Seems ironic.

[Goblin_Priest]

True enough for the source of "goblins as XP fodder" possibly not being fully honest, it does pretty much reflect the reality of how things are in this world, as far as we can tell, in most published worlds, and in most D&D games in general.

[Aedilred]

I don't think we have any reliable info telling us that this hobgoblin tribe had been living peacefully for a very long time. Peacefulness is not really in the Monster Manual entry for hobgoblins either.

We do now. The hobgoblins we see in the comic had been living in (relative) peace for about twelve years, hence why their tribe grew so large. Similarly,

I'm very skeptical that the goblin tribes/villages that didn't harbor the guy trying to use the god-slaying monster to threaten the other gods had much trouble with azurites.

The Sapphire Guard are known to have raided goblinoid settlements which were not sheltering the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, on suspicion that or in the belief that they were.

Source for those is the new O-Chul story so I won't say more. And, to be fair, it's possible that the Guard raids largely stopped during the period the hobgoblins were at peace.

[warmachine]

My favourite part is when Xykon discovers he can no longer taste coffee, a loss that pushes him from sadistic team player to monster-in-charge. I used to think the cyberpunk genre's belief that cybernetic enhancements dehumanises people was incorrect, now I suspect the belief is correct.

[Lacuna Caster]

My favourite part is when Xykon discovers he can no longer taste coffee, a loss that pushes him from sadistic team player to monster-in-charge. I used to think the cyberpunk genre's belief that cybernetic enhancements dehumanises people was incorrect, now I suspect the belief is correct.

Dude, SoD is a fine story and all, but that's a terrible basis for forming beliefs about real technologies.

[CletusMusashi]

I have all the books, but SOD is by far the one that I've read the most times. It is certainly the darkest, but damned if it isn't also the best. And because it is more serious, the feelings that it invokes each time continue to amaze me.
I could probably enjoy the main characters just as much without reading "Origin of PCs," but always having SOD fresh in my head adds so much to Redcloak and Xykon that it takes their characters to a whole 'nother level.

[Alcore]

I love start of darkness. Having a story not centered around a human or human look alike was wonderful. It made me feel for Redcloak in more ways and made sympathising with goblin kind so much easier. Now if only the orcs could rise up and butcher an elven or dwarven kingdom this setting will feel complete.



Then there was our big bad losing humanity. Good for him, i guess.



Dark is good as the comic was sitting in a neutral space when i read it. I was sick of the goodness of Azure City. A goodness we never returned too but i feel the dwarven lands will change that.

[Caractacus]

I bought and read SoD, too.

I think it is a very good book. I admire it.

I don't like the storyline though.

Allow me to explain:

I am a bit soft. I often find that the most realistic thrillers really trouble me. Horror films do not, for the most part.

With SoD, I found the casual violence of Xykon and the tragedy of Redcloak to be very well evoked, and as a result I find reading the book a rather powerful experience. I loathe Xykon, detest and hate him.

It is a very good book. I thoroughly recommend it. It adds to the story exceptionally well.

...

I just don't read it often.