Dota 2 anyone?

[Olinser]

Which relics are you talking about?

Things like camp stacking, different armor and attack types on some jungle creeps letting them do and take more/less damage, inherent 25% hero magic resist causing most spells to do less than the tooltip says even if target has no actual defenses, minion blocking, creep denial, soaking EXP off jungle monsters even if the enemy team kills them, etc. Things that players familiar with the game know because they've seen them done, but that don't make that much sense to people that have never played the game.

They're not really BAD, per se, but they raise the entry bar to get into the game and a lot of them don't really add much gameplay value because it just means both sides do them equally.

[Anteros]

Things like camp stacking, different armor and attack types on some jungle creeps letting them do and take more/less damage, inherent 25% hero magic resist causing most spells to do less than the tooltip says even if target has no actual defenses, minion blocking, creep denial, soaking EXP off jungle monsters even if the enemy team kills them, etc. Things that players familiar with the game know because they've seen them done, but that don't make that much sense to people that have never played the game.

They're not really BAD, per se, but they raise the entry bar to get into the game and a lot of them don't really add much gameplay value because it just means both sides do them equally.

A lot of that stuff is actually getting phased out recently. The problem is that it seems to be too late. Most people who want to play a MOBA have already picked one anyway by now. All they're accomplishing now is alienating their existing player base, which is why the numbers have been dropping.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of DOTA 2 mainly because of a number of not particularly logical gameplay elements that are mainly a relic of the WC3 engine, but lack of skill required is definitely not one of my complaints - just watch Sumail or SCCC play something like Storm Spirit or Jerax play Rubick in a competitive game and try to claim they take no skill.

Not no skill. Skills I don't find entertaining. Chessmastering and reflex battles.

[Olinser]

A lot of that stuff is actually getting phased out recently. The problem is that it seems to be too late. Most people who want to play a MOBA have already picked one anyway by now. All they're accomplishing now is alienating their existing player base, which is why the numbers have been dropping.

Well the problem is they're both doing too much and not doing enough.

They need to decide what they want to do - attract more players or focus on keeping their current base happy.

Attracting more players would require them to make pretty significant changes to the game. They're kind of moving in this direction with the shrines, talents, etc, but at the same time they're not really changing anything that's going to tell prospective players, "Hey look how new we are, come check the game out!"

And these changes come at the cost of pissing off their existing player base. So they're not making drastic enough changes to really increase their base, and the changes they ARE making are not going over particularly well with the current base. That's not a recipe for success on any level.

I think they'd be better off trying to make DOTA 3 than salvage DOTA 2.

[Meta]

It's a tricky balance. In a microcosm, denying makes no sense flavorfully. Why is killing your allies a good thing? In a war, denying any resource to your opponent is great though, like setting fire to equipment you need to leave behind. Denying also is another skill tester, and players can choose to focus on advancing their own gold acquisition or slowing enemies. Multiple ways to play.

In general I'm going to favor most design decisions that open up new playstyle space, even if a bit odd.

[Olinser]

So any of yall up to date on the Kiev Major?

Spoiler: undefined

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I do think that its looking more and more likely the final is going to be IG vs OG.

[Olinser]

So then.... that is just a thing that happened.

Spoiler: Kiev Major Finals

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VP blew a nearly 20k gold lead in game 5 by losing 5 straight teamfights, and lost it all.

And this is AFTER being up 2-1 in the series.

Like... WTF.

[Ionbound]

Spoiler: Kiev Major Finals

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I mean, there's a reason they're called Virtus.Throw

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Things like camp stacking, different armor and attack types on some jungle creeps letting them do and take more/less damage, inherent 25% hero magic resist causing most spells to do less than the tooltip says even if target has no actual defenses, minion blocking, creep denial, soaking EXP off jungle monsters even if the enemy team kills them, etc. Things that players familiar with the game know because they've seen them done, but that don't make that much sense to people that have never played the game.

They're not really BAD, per se, but they raise the entry bar to get into the game and a lot of them don't really add much gameplay value because it just means both sides do them equally.

The funny thing is, those are the elements of Dota 2 which I find intriguing...

Basically, the whole thing is far more toolboxy than any other MOBA out there, which makes it super unique.

(Don't currently play, because I don't really have the time.)

[Bucky]

So then.... that is just a thing that happened.

Spoiler: Kiev Major Finals

Show

VP blew a nearly 20k gold lead in game 5 by losing 5 straight teamfights, and lost it all.

And this is AFTER being up 2-1 in the series.

Like... WTF.

What happened was...

Spoiler

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Alchemist did Alchemist things and 6-slotted himself with 5 midgame items. He then needed to sell one off and replace it, creating a weak timing. OG picked him off at the start of the weak timing.

Troll then did Troll things and took the tier 3 tower even though there was a tier 2 tower in the way. He ate the shrines for dessert once Alchemist respawned.

At that point the gold lead evened out to where OG could win a teamfight conditional on a good Treant ult.

[Meta]

Spoiler: Kiev Finals

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I think OG is the best team I've ever seen at teamfighting while behind. Their cohesion and target prioritization is really top notch. Fly played out of his mind.

[Olinser]

Spoiler: Kiev Finals

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I think OG is the best team I've ever seen at teamfighting while behind. Their cohesion and target prioritization is really top notch. Fly played out of his mind.

Yeah they're definitely one of the best right now.

Spoiler: Kiev

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I was pretty surprised they 2-0ed EG, although I thought EG made some really questionable draft choices.

I would not be shocked if OG finally took The International this year.

[Cynan Machae]

Yeah they're definitely one of the best right now.

Spoiler: Kiev

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I was pretty surprised they 2-0ed EG, although I thought EG made some really questionable draft choices.

I would not be shocked if OG finally took The International this year.

Spoiler: Kiev

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Or they will do like last year and do well in all Majors then loose to a qualifier team at TI

...I want Notail to win :(

[Olinser]

Spoiler: Kiev

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Or they will do like last year and do well in all Majors then loose to a qualifier team at TI

...I want Notail to win :(

Its funny the announcers were actually talking about that very thing.

OG has won something like... what... 4 or 5? Major events. Exact number doesn't matter that much - a lot more than anybody else. But then they got knocked out so easily in International last year.

They're definitely on a roll right now though. They have placed no lower than tying for 3rd in ANY event they have participated in since last October - and that was just a tiny little online invitational that was a BO1 elimination.

In fact if you disregard that one event, other than the International OG hasn't fallen below tying for 3rd place since April 2016.

They're definitely strong contenders for the top spot at International this year, although I do think EG is a better team.

Although fun fact - at the time of Kiev Major, Ana is actually the #1 ranked MMR player in the world with just short of 9500.

[Anteros]

Although fun fact - at the time of Kiev Major, Ana is actually the #1 ranked MMR player in the world with just short of 9500.

That's just because I only play unranked. I swear I'm totally 10k.

[Olinser]

That's just because I only play unranked. I swear I'm totally 10k.

Though a lot of people have pointed out that 10k might be unachievable without a decent increase in the number of players in ranked, and that even if it were possible right now it would basically require a large number of the higher ranked players to go through a sustained period of playing ranked in similar times for some of them to get past 10k.

[Meta]

New compendium is pretty awesome. Looking to pick up the reef terrain for sure.

[Bucky]

Though a lot of people have pointed out that 10k might be unachievable without a decent increase in the number of players in ranked, and that even if it were possible right now it would basically require a large number of the higher ranked players to go through a sustained period of playing ranked in similar times for some of them to get past 10k.

The alternative way to get to 10k is to be so good at the game that you can literally 1v5 a team of 5k mmr players.

[Meta]

Cynan Machae and I won T5 battlecup on USEAST yesterday. He's Cynan on Steam and I'm iNuzzle. Feel free to add either of us if you want to get in on the next one!

[Olinser]

So now that the forums are back up, anybody watching the Epicenter qualifiers? Couple of them have been pretty shocking.

Spoiler: CIS Qual

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Finals not complete, but totally predictably the final is NaVi against Secret. I favor Secret myself, given they already won the earlier Bo3.

Spoiler: CN Qualifiers

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I was SHOCKED by the outcome here. LGD Forever Young had to win their way past multiple solid teams to get this spot - beating out LGD, Newbee, Ehome AND VGJ in head to heads to get this qualifier.

Spoiler: SEA Quals

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Another shocker here. Clutch Gamers not only takes the qual, but only drops a single game the entire circuit, and beating out Faceless in a total of 4-1 in TWO best of 3s.

Spoiler: AM Quals

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No surprises here. Thunderbirds, while technically a new team, is the old Digital Chaos team in its entirety. They blazed through without even dropping a single game, which given that Team NP was the only other real competition, isn't particularly surprising.

[Keld Denar]

Well, since this thread isn't that old and there are no other dedicated DotA threads, I figure this is as good a space as any.

Are there like, no player vs bot games anymore? I've been stuck in queue now 20+ minutes for AP - Unfair default bots to get some practice in on a few heroes I haven't played in ages and I don't like playing solo bot games because whether or not you win depends on your team's AI picks (not all AI are equal...far from it).

So, anyone else experience this? Any ideas?

[Akisa]

Well, since this thread isn't that old and there are no other dedicated DotA threads, I figure this is as good a space as any.

Are there like, no player vs bot games anymore? I've been stuck in queue now 20+ minutes for AP - Unfair default bots to get some practice in on a few heroes I haven't played in ages and I don't like playing solo bot games because whether or not you win depends on your team's AI picks (not all AI are equal...far from it).

So, anyone else experience this? Any ideas?

Well I been playing a few bots I believe some of the boys are split up due to the different workshop que. I also played hard bots and not really unfair bots. Oh btw f Viper bot.

(I'm 1k srub tier please be kind).

[Anteros]

If I could give one piece of advice, it would be to just forget bot matches and play real games. I have a friend who has social anxiety but enjoys Dota. As a result he's logged something like 1000+ hours against the bots. Which is fine if that's what you enjoy...but he hasn't gotten any better in that entire time. Or at least not the way he would have improved against real players. You'll learn a lot more against real people.

Mute them if you're worried about getting flamed and get in there!

[Bucky]

Offline bot matches are good for practicing technical minutae like pulling, animation-cancelling and last hitting. They aren't so good for anything that has to do with strategy.

[calvinn]

Of course!
I was amazed when I saw how many people play dota 2. And this after so many years and the appearance of such a huge number of different
games