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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So your idea is that making justice is more important that doing what is better now ?
    And it's not like Ulfric did something illegal or immoral.
    Well, he murdered his king and plunged Skyrim into war. That looks pretty immoral where I'm standing.

    Besides that, its not about "justice". The Empire took the treaty specifically to get some breathing room and prepare for the next war, and Ulfric is trying to push the boundaries of it instead of, you know, preparing for when the Thalmor break the treaty.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Because obviously they couldn't be allies. The Empire absolutely needs to control Skyrim, right ?
    If they had granted independence to Skyrim they could have formed an anti-Thalmor alliance, maybe even including Hammerfell. Instead they chose to fight a war that only goes in Thalmor favor, a war whose motivation is enforcing Thalmor oppression.
    That simply destroyed the Empire reputation. Before that they could say: "We have lost a war, but we are still here. Let's unite against our common enemy".
    But now ? They look like Thalmor slaves. How could Skyrim, even if the Stormcloaks are defeated, give enthusiastic support for an Empire that allows elf Gestapo to roam freely and had fought a war to allow that ?
    How could Hammerfell trust them ?
    Well gee, I guess Ulfric should have thought of that before starting a civil war and inviting the elf gestapo into Skyrim, shouldn't have he. This is a man who sees his people being oppressed and goes "welp, cant have that. Ima kill em, that will make them less oppressed".



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    You have lost the flow of the discussion here. I was saying that the Nords don't discriminate openly the Altmer because of their free choice, not because they are terrified of the Thalmor reaction. In fact they have already pissed off the Thalmor and are basically fighting against them.
    Except the stormcloaks do openly discriminate against elves. Their battlecry is "Skyrim for the nords!", the Dark Elves are confined to a ghetto in Windhelm and aren't even acknowledged outside of it. I can think of all of like two altmer who aren't Thalmor in all of stormcloak territory.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Sure, Ulfric indirectly helped the Thalmor, but the same is true for the Empire. In fact they are helping the Dominion a lot more that Ulfric ever did. The Empire is an active subject in the civil war, they chose to fight it and that is harming their position a lot more that any gain they could make from winning it.
    You are dramatically underestimating how important Skyrim and its resources are. It makes most of the arms and armor for the Empire at this point, and most of the Legionnaires are nords. if Skyrim breaks off, the Empire is done for, and then Skyrim is surrounded on all sides by hostile forces.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    The two aren't mutually exclusive. A lot of revolutionaries identified themselves with their own agenda. I don't deny it can be a problematic attitude, but it's a little different than siimply being power-hungry.
    If you actually look at what he does and listen to what he says, its clear Ulfric just wants to be High King, and only considers his people and their traditions to be a vehicle to get him there. He doesn't even have a plan for dealing with the inevitable Dominion invasion, and I'm not sure he actually cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    But nobody ever says that the rules forbid the use of the Thu'um, don't they ? Unless is proven the claims of the pro-Torygg are just sore losers cries. Apparently nobody ever lose fairly.
    Nordic tradition says that the Voice is not meant to be used in that way. Only the Dragonborn, who was given the gift directly from the gods to use as he will, is allowed to use the Voice for anything other than the worship of Kyne. He may be keeping to the letter, but he's certainly violating their spirit.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    You are dramatically underestimating how important Skyrim and its resources are. It makes most of the arms and armor for the Empire at this point, and most of the Legionnaires are nords. if Skyrim breaks off, the Empire is done for, and then Skyrim is surrounded on all sides by hostile forces.
    Given that the East Empire Company still exists, I'm assuming that the Ebony trade is also still working. So, that's at least one other source of high quality weaponry. But yeah, Skyrim is basically the only valuable territory left in the empire, apart from Nibenay and Colovia. Of those, Colovia is the traditional main source of legionaires for the Empire, but the Thalmor conquered and pretty thoroughly devastated the entire region.
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Given that the East Empire Company still exists, I'm assuming that the Ebony trade is also still working. So, that's at least one other source of high quality weaponry. But yeah, Skyrim is basically the only valuable territory left in the empire, apart from Nibenay and Colovia. Of those, Colovia is the traditional main source of legionaires for the Empire, but the Thalmor conquered and pretty thoroughly devastated the entire region.
    I could be mistaken, but isn't the ebony-smithing tradition mostly based in morrowind?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Because obviously they couldn't be allies. The Empire absolutely needs to control Skyrim, right ?
    If they had granted independence to Skyrim they could have formed an anti-Thalmor alliance, maybe even including Hammerfell. Instead they chose to fight a war that only goes in Thalmor favor, a war whose motivation is enforcing Thalmor oppression.
    That simply destroyed the Empire reputation. Before that they could say: "We have lost a war, but we are still here. Let's unite against our common enemy".
    But now ? They look like Thalmor slaves. How could Skyrim, even if the Stormcloaks are defeated, give enthusiastic support for an Empire that allows elf Gestapo to roam freely and had fought a war to allow that ?
    How could Hammerfell trust them ?
    And how could the citizens of the remaining provinces believe in an Empire that lets people secede whenever they see fit? How could the peace treaty hold if you're openly allying with people breaking most of its terms? And why would the Empire trust Ulfric?

    Sure, Ulfric indirectly helped the Thalmor, but the same is true for the Empire. In fact they are helping the Dominion a lot more that Ulfric ever did. The Empire is an active subject in the civil war, they chose to fight it and that is harming their position a lot more that any gain they could make from winning it.
    Similiarly Ulfric is an active subject in the war, he started it and before that he gave the Thalmor an excuse to go around kidnapping people - we know people worshipped Talos peacefully after the Concordate and only after Stormcloak openly defied it the hit squads appeared.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive. A lot of revolutionaries identified themselves with their own agenda. I don't deny it can be a problematic attitude, but it's a little different than siimply being power-hungry.
    Where do you see Ulfric's idealism? He made his duel with Torygg a show of power (as just about everyone claims he would have won even without the Shout do to having far more experience and skill), he will only call the Moot once he is sure they will vote as he wants them to etc...

    But nobody ever says that the rules forbid the use of the Thu'um, don't they ? Unless is proven the claims of the pro-Torygg are just sore losers cries. Apparently nobody ever lose fairly.
    Similarly, we don't know the rules do allow it - the only people who claim that are Ulfric's supporters. At the very least we know such use of Thu'um goes against everything the Greybeards taught for the past few millenia (ever since Jurgen Windcaller's reforms).
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I could be mistaken, but isn't the ebony-smithing tradition mostly based in morrowind?
    Ebony is mostly found on Vvardenfell. There's also some in Solstheim and Skyrim, so holding Skyrim is important for that reason.
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I could be mistaken, but isn't the ebony-smithing tradition mostly based in morrowind?
    Yes. That's why I mentioned the East Empire Trading Company, they were mainly established to exploit the resources of Morrowind and in the third era, are very active on Vvardenfell and Solstheim.

    In the fourth era, they are still at least in Solstheim and Skyrim, so I assume they are also still bringing Ebony to the Empire.
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yes. That's why I mentioned the East Empire Trading Company, they were mainly established to exploit the resources of Morrowind and in the third era, are very active on Vvardenfell and Solstheim.

    In the fourth era, they are still at least in Solstheim and Skyrim, so I assume they are also still bringing Ebony to the Empire.
    I... think you might be forgetting that there was a bit of tragedy in Morrowind on account of Vvardenfell getting killed by the volcano. And they decidedly ARENT active on Solstheim in the fourth era. They might still be shipping ebony out of skyrim, for now, but I wouldn't count on them being able to do that if Skyrim leaves the Empire.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2017-04-24 at 09:19 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I... think you might be forgetting that there was a bit of tragedy in Morrowind on account of Vvardenfell getting killed by the volcano. And they decidedly ARENT active on Solstheim in the fourth era. They might still be shipping ebony out of skyrim, for now, but I wouldn't count on them being able to do that if Skyrim leaves the Empire.
    I know Vvardenfell is mostly gone, yes. But I was sure I had seen the EETC in Solstheim in Skyrim. Must be misremembering.
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Yeah, personally, as someone who is not hugely into ES lore, just reads what is presented to him in the game, I could never even see the Stormcloaks as a valid faction to join. They're just secondary villains. I didn't even realize that you were supposed to see the Stormcloaks as a valid faction instead of a bunch of jerks until I went to the internet and saw debate, because to me it couldn't seem more crystal clear who the worse guy was in this situation.

    I honestly think that they added the "Empire about to cut your head off" bit at the beginning so that gamers would have enough of a gut reaction to consider the Stormcloaks at least vaguely ambiguous. But the thing is that "they tried to kill me" a) only says that the commander is triggerhappy, seeing how apparently they try to kill you because they find you in the company of John Wilkes Booth squared multiplied by Napoleon and suspect you of being his accomplice, and b) applies to 90% of the world in every videogame. So what seems to be an emotional appeal that genuinely hits other people there... kinda plinked off my skin entirely and I looked to things that happened during the game, not during the intro. I compared Imperial-leaning cities to Stormcloak ones. Imperial-leaning NPCs to Stormcloak-leaning ones. Actions mentioned in the lore. Attitudes towards other people.

    And well. When actually compared, Stormcloaks do not come off well. Ulfric is a powerhungry hypocrite who murdered a teenager in front of his family and is basically making an amazing effort at giving the world to the Thalmor in a platter in the name of a campaign of racial purity and nationalism (I believe the term Stalin used was "Useful Idiot"). Most Stormcloak-controlled areas tend towards s**tholes. Most of the decidedly Stormcloak-leaning characters tend towards racists, ***holes, or racist ***holess. Ulfric's place in the lore is that of a man that will not hesitate to sell out his non-pureNord supposed allies if they will not be entirely subservient. And so on. Basically, the Stormcloak sentiment starts at "screw the non-Nords" and goes from there.

    By comparison, the larger portion of the Empire just come off as having "cowards" as their primary failing. They officially banned Talos worship to prevent another war with the Thalmor, but did nothing to actually enforce the ban until Nords started making so much noise that the Thalmor started sending dudes in to check and noticed that hey, wait a bloody minute, nobody is actually doing anything with this ban, are we gonna have to go to war again? They cowardly retreated from the Redguards' home, but lore books point out that it's kind of curious how Imperial weapon and supply convoys always "happen" to get found and looted by the Redguard resistance forces, when you'd think they wouldn't send weaponry through there. And so on. Basically, the Empire seemed to officially bend the knee out of cowardice while still working to undermine Thalmor sovereignity.

    And honestly, between the relatively egalitarian, lawful cowards and the valorous nationalist racists, I'm siding with the cowards, thank you very much. Fiction likes to romanticise people who fight really hard for a horrible cause, but personal valor and "idealism" is worth squat (and in fact of inverse worth) if it's in service to an abhorrent idea like what the Stormcloaks preach. Zeon can go pack sand as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by Drascin; 2017-04-24 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I know Vvardenfell is mostly gone, yes. But I was sure I had seen the EETC in Solstheim in Skyrim. Must be misremembering.
    They were... in TES:3. the fact that they picked up and moved on is a plot point in Dragonborn.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Though at least sometimes, I'd say it's a question of whether they are ****holes because they are Stormcloak or Stormcloak because they are ****holes. I.e. are those who are worse off more likely to join the the Stormcloaks or do Stormcloaks just make things worse. Probably bit of both.

    (My preferred solution, by the way, would be to say: "Stormcloaks? YOu have a few valid concerns, but you're annoyingly racist and have a giant ******* for a leader. Imperials? You are cowards, you lost a war and your Emperor really doesn't have much legitimacy anyway. Now. I'm Dragonborn. The last two Imperial lines were dragonborn. See the connection? Good. Now hand over that crown and let me go kick some Thalmor ass and save the world.")
    Last edited by Eldan; 2017-04-24 at 10:10 AM.
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Well, he murdered his king and plunged Skyrim into war. That looks pretty immoral where I'm standing.
    He killed Torygg in a duel. That's not murder. Accepting a duel means giving the other guy legal permission to kill you. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Well gee, I guess Ulfric should have thought of that before starting a civil war and inviting the elf gestapo into Skyrim, shouldn't have he. This is a man who sees his people being oppressed and goes "welp, cant have that. Ima kill em, that will make them less oppressed".
    So the fault is on the victim ? Yeah, if the girl had not been dressed so shamelessly she wouldn't had been raped.
    Ulfric voices his religion and freedom of speech. The Thalmor kindnap and torture people, the Empire helps them. But hey the bad guy would be Ulfric ? Not the ones that actually oppress Talos believers, right ? Had Ulfric actually persecuted people for their religion ? Does the Stormcloaks going around capturing and torturing innocent Altmer or Imperials ? No, thus they are better than the guys that do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Except the stormcloaks do openly discriminate against elves. Their battlecry is "Skyrim for the nords!", the Dark Elves are confined to a ghetto in Windhelm and aren't even acknowledged outside of it. I can think of all of like two altmer who aren't Thalmor in all of stormcloak territory.
    I have already debunked this bull**** in my previous posts. Having such battlecry isn't racist, just patriotic. And to attack a battlecy it means you lack real arguments. Notice how nobody cares what the Thalmor or Imperial battlecries are ?

    There are 4 Altmers only in Windhelm. They own business and don't complain about any discrimination.
    Belyn Hlaalu is a Dunmer who owns a farm in Windhelm. He also employs a Nord farmer. Exactly. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu

    Windhelm is also one of the most diverse cities from the ethnical point of view, with the biggest community of Altmers, Dunmers and Argonians http://skyrimforums.org/sf/threads/r...n-skyrim.9429/

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    You are dramatically underestimating how important Skyrim and its resources are. It makes most of the arms and armor for the Empire at this point, and most of the Legionnaires are nords. if Skyrim breaks off, the Empire is done for, and then Skyrim is surrounded on all sides by hostile forces.
    If the Empire was allied with Skyrim they could get such resources anyway.
    And and I doubt that the majority of the Legion soldiers are Nord. In Skyrim the Imperials seems more common, and that considering that Skyrim forces should have the greater percentage of Nords of all the Legions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If you actually look at what he does and listen to what he says, its clear Ulfric just wants to be High King, and only considers his people and their traditions to be a vehicle to get him there. He doesn't even have a plan for dealing with the inevitable Dominion invasion, and I'm not sure he actually cares.
    Actual quotes for the first part. Because Ulfric never disrepects Nord traditions. And becoming king is needed to change the things.
    The Dominion invasion isn't inevitable. They are greatly weakened after the Great War. Hammerfeel already kicked their asses. Skyrim is a mountainous country, far from the Summerset Isles. Logistics would kill the invasion even before the Nord armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Nordic tradition says that the Voice is not meant to be used in that way. Only the Dragonborn, who was given the gift directly from the gods to use as he will, is allowed to use the Voice for anything other than the worship of Kyne. He may be keeping to the letter, but he's certainly violating their spirit.
    That are Greybeards rules, not Nord tradition. The Thu'um was widely used in ancient Skyrim.
    There was even a book in Morrowind about it http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Children_of_the_Sky


    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    And how could the citizens of the remaining provinces believe in an Empire that lets people secede whenever they see fit? How could the peace treaty hold if you're openly allying with people breaking most of its terms? And why would the Empire trust Ulfric?
    The remaining provinces being... just High Rock whose importance is small. And why should people hate an Empire based on consent rather than constraint ?
    Why the alliance should be public ? "Dear Thalmor, there are just commercial exchanges..."
    They would trust Ulfric because they have no alternatives and he is a sworn enemy of the Thalmor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Similiarly Ulfric is an active subject in the war, he started it and before that he gave the Thalmor an excuse to go around kidnapping people - we know people worshipped Talos peacefully after the Concordate and only after Stormcloak openly defied it the hit squads appeared.
    So we agree that they both choose to fight ? Well then. If nobody shot first we have to look at who has the moral high ground. Ulfric wants to grant freedom to Skyrim. The Empire fights to allow Gestapo to operate. So it seems obvious to me that the Empire lacks good reasons. The only one that you provided is that the Empire needs resources for fighting the Dominion... which they do by expending resources fighting for the sake of the Dominion !

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Where do you see Ulfric's idealism? He made his duel with Torygg a show of power (as just about everyone claims he would have won even without the Shout do to having far more experience and skill), he will only call the Moot once he is sure they will vote as he wants them to etc...
    So ? He had the Thu'um, he used it. Sure it was impressive, but how it violates his ideals ?
    He didn't want to call the Moot. But that was is prerogative. Maybe he has more common sense that you give him credit for. But this doesn't prove that his final goal (freeing Skyrim) is a lie.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Most Stormcloak-controlled areas tend towards s**tholes
    Yeah. Instead the Empire cities are all so peaceful, efficient and beautiful. Not just like Riften that is controlled by the Mafia, or Markarth that is bloodied by terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Most of the decidedly Stormcloak-leaning characters tend towards racists, ***holes, or racist ***holess.
    Names, please.
    I can name a racist ******* in the Empire ranks: general Tullius.
    Last edited by BlacKnight; 2017-04-24 at 10:37 AM.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    He killed Torygg in a duel. That's not murder. Accepting a duel means giving the other guy legal permission to kill you. Period.
    For one thing, the legality of the duel is questionable. Certainly most of the imperial supporters see it as murder. But besides that, Ulfric is a veteran warrior with a super weapon that cant be taken from him at his disposal, and Torygg is, frankly, still a kid as far as the nords are concerned. That's not an honorable duel, that's a massacre hiding behind tradition to try and justify it.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So the fault is on the victim ? Yeah, if the girl had not been dressed so shamelessly she wouldn't had been raped.
    Ulfric voices his religion and freedom of speech. The Thalmor kindnap and torture people, the Empire helps them. But hey the bad guy would be Ulfric ? Not the ones that actually oppress Talos believers, right ? Had Ulfric actually persecuted people for their religion ? Does the Stormcloaks going around capturing and torturing innocent Altmer or Imperials ? No, thus they are better than the guys that do it.
    Ulfrics no victim. If you go jabbing a wasp's nest until they start stinging people, you don't get to blame the exterminators for not protecting you from the wasps.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    I have already debunked this bull**** in my previous posts. Having such battlecry isn't racist, just patriotic. And to attack a battlecy it means you lack real arguments. Notice how nobody cares what the Thalmor or Imperial battlecries are ?
    Nobody is questioning that the Thalmor are racists though. The entire Stormcloak cause is built on the foundation of Nordic supremacy. That is fundamentally racist, even if it isn't overtly and equally oppressive in all areas of their domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    There are 4 Altmers only in Windhelm. They own business and don't complain about any discrimination.
    Belyn Hlaalu is a Dunmer who owns a farm in Windhelm. He also employs a Nord farmer. Exactly. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu

    Windhelm is also one of the most diverse cities from the ethnical point of view, with the biggest community of Altmers, Dunmers and Argonians http://skyrimforums.org/sf/threads/r...n-skyrim.9429/
    Even the citizens of Windhelm note that Ulfric is putting on a show, and that once you get too far outside of the city walls, youre out of luck. The dunmer talk of caravans of dunmer refugees being outright ignored, while Ulfric meanwhile goes to great lengths to help out the nords in the wilderness.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    If the Empire was allied with Skyrim they could get such resources anyway.
    And and I doubt that the majority of the Legion soldiers are Nord. In Skyrim the Imperials seems more common, and that considering that Skyrim forces should have the greater percentage of Nords of all the Legions.
    You are aware that real people don't actually fall for the "well technically it was my dog that bit you, I just didn't have him on a leash" excuse, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Actual quotes for the first part. Because Ulfric never disrepects Nord traditions. And becoming king is needed to change the things.
    The Dominion invasion isn't inevitable. They are greatly weakened after the Great War. Hammerfeel already kicked their asses. Skyrim is a mountainous country, far from the Summerset Isles. Logistics would kill the invasion even before the Nord armies.
    Of course the dominion invasion is inevitable. Have you been paying attention? They want to take over the world, and that includes Skyrim. Do you think theyre going to just ignore skyrim because its a little further away than Cyrodiil?



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    That are Greybeards rules, not Nord tradition. The Thu'um was widely used in ancient Skyrim.
    There was even a book in Morrowind about it http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Children_of_the_Sky
    The Greybeard's rules ARE Nordic tradition. The Greybeards are so respected by the people of Skyrim that even Ulfric couldn't openly disrespect them without basically abandoning his command.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    The remaining provinces being... just High Rock whose importance is small. And why should people hate an Empire based on consent rather than constraint ?
    Why the alliance should be public ? "Dear Thalmor, there are just commercial exchanges..."
    They would trust Ulfric because they have no alternatives and he is a sworn enemy of the Thalmor.
    The Thalmor aren't idiots. "oh hey, were just supplying your enemies with supplies and resources, but we totally aren't allied with them, no not at all." Theyre barely getting away with it in hammerfell, and that's because Hammerfell is nominally hostile to the Empire too.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So we agree that they both choose to fight ? Well then. If nobody shot first we have to look at who has the moral high ground. Ulfric wants to grant freedom to Skyrim. The Empire fights to allow Gestapo to operate. So it seems obvious to me that the Empire lacks good reasons. The only one that you provided is that the Empire needs resources for fighting the Dominion... which they do by expending resources fighting for the sake of the Dominion !
    Ulfric threw the first punch. Flat out. That isn't in dispute, even among the stormcloaks. And the empire doesn't "allow" the Thalmor to operate, because that implies the ability to prevent them from doing so. Between the treaties and the beating they were handed in the last war, they aren't in a position to stop the Thalmor from doing much of anything.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So ? He had the Thu'um, he used it. Sure it was impressive, but how it violates his ideals ?
    He didn't want to call the Moot. But that was is prerogative. Maybe he has more common sense that you give him credit for. But this doesn't prove that his final goal (freeing Skyrim) is a lie.
    If I bring a gun to a fencing match, does that make me smart, or a cheater and a murderer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Yeah. Instead the Empire cities are all so peaceful, efficient and beautiful. Not just like Riften that is controlled by the Mafia, or Markarth that is bloodied by terrorism.
    Riften is a stormcloak city, and Markarth is functionally a stormcloak city, even if the Jarl personally favors the Empire.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Keltest; 2017-04-24 at 10:53 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Windhelm is also one of the most diverse cities from the ethnical point of view, with the biggest community of Altmers, Dunmers and Argonians http://skyrimforums.org/sf/threads/r...n-skyrim.9429/
    With the Dunmer living in a ghetto and Argonians being forbidden from entering the city by Ulfric's decree.

    Actual quotes for the first part. Because Ulfric never disrepects Nord traditions. And becoming king is needed to change the things.
    The Way of the Voice IS a nordic tradition and has been one for ages. He violated it as badly as possible.

    The Thu'um was widely used in ancient Skyrim.
    There was even a book in Morrowind about it http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Children_of_the_Sky
    Sooo, if some place had a tradition of eating people 5000 years ago, but decided against it 4000 years ago and kept things that way, which is their tradition: eating people or not eating people?

    The remaining provinces being... just High Rock whose importance is small. And why should people hate an Empire based on consent rather than constraint ?
    And Cyrodiil - which would lose what little prominence it had left. Surely, the people would love that...

    They would trust Ulfric because they have no alternatives and he is a sworn enemy of the Thalmor.
    That would werk perfectly.

    But this doesn't prove that his final goal (freeing Skyrim) is a lie.
    His goal is free Skyrim under his rule.

    Yeah. Instead the Empire cities are all so peaceful, efficient and beautiful. Not just like Riften that is controlled by the Mafia, or Markarth that is bloodied by terrorism.
    The Riften that is in Stormcloak territory? And the Markarth, where things are run mostly by a family of Stormcloak supporters?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    He killed Torygg in a duel. That's not murder. Accepting a duel means giving the other guy legal permission to kill you. Period.
    Remember that he had no choce but to accept the duel once the challenge was made. He was untrained and only let Ulfric into the throne room so he could talk with him and try to diplomatically sort things out between them.

    Ulfric's first course of action was to kill him, all so he could have a chance at the throne. By all accounts, Torygg would have likely allied with Ulfric, he practically worshiped the man. But Ulfric wanted to be in full control, not just have another province allied with his cause.

    Because, unlike his words that he wants to unify Skyrim, his actions are wholly divisive since only by division does he have the excuse to CONQUER Skyrim and be the undisputed leader.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So the fault is on the victim ? Yeah, if the girl had not been dressed so shamelessly she wouldn't had been raped.
    Ulfric voices his religion and freedom of speech. The Thalmor kindnap and torture people, the Empire helps them. But hey the bad guy would be Ulfric ? Not the ones that actually oppress Talos believers, right ? Had Ulfric actually persecuted people for their religion ? Does the Stormcloaks going around capturing and torturing innocent Altmer or Imperials ? No, thus they are better than the guys that do it.
    Again, none of this happened before Ulfric started the war. The "elf Gestapo" weren't a thing before that. Nobody was persecuted for their religion. Skyrim in particular was wiping its ass with the treaty for a good 26 years before Ulfric came along and turned a toothless document into an excuse for invasion.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    I have already debunked this bull**** in my previous posts.
    No, you haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Having such battlecry isn't racist, just patriotic. And to attack a battlecy it means you lack real arguments. Notice how nobody cares what the Thalmor or Imperial battlecries are ?
    "America for the Whites!" doesn't sound just a bit racist to you?

    Also, for posterity, the respective battlecries for the other two are "Behold the future! Behold the Thalmor!" (followed by race specific epithets I believe when they attack you) and "For the Empire/Emperor!"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    There are 4 Altmers only in Windhelm. They own business and don't complain about any discrimination.
    Belyn Hlaalu is a Dunmer who owns a farm in Windhelm. He also employs a Nord farmer. Exactly. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu

    Windhelm is also one of the most diverse cities from the ethnical point of view, with the biggest community of Altmers, Dunmers and Argonians http://skyrimforums.org/sf/threads/r...n-skyrim.9429/
    *With the Dunmers confined to a ghetto and the Argonians not even allowed to enter the city (so are they even members of the city?).



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    If the Empire was allied with Skyrim they could get such resources anyway.
    And and I doubt that the majority of the Legion soldiers are Nord. In Skyrim the Imperials seems more common, and that considering that Skyrim forces should have the greater percentage of Nords of all the Legions.
    At least according to Rikke (who may be a bit biased), Nords make up the backbone of the Legion. A lot of Nords join up to find a purpose, as we can see in Whiterun and Dawnstar, so it's not an unlikely claim given Skyrim's high population and warrior culture that at least a significant portion (30%, perhaps) are Nords, or were before the Civil War (remember a LOT of Stormcloaks were former Legionnaires, like Galmar).



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Actual quotes for the first part. Because Ulfric never disrepects Nord traditions. And becoming king is needed to change the things.
    His actions speak louder than his words. Of course he won't verbally disrespect tradition, his entire movement is based on populism and cultivating a nationalist identity.

    But where is his honor, exactly? What traditions does he follow, specifically, that mark him a "true Nord"? He occasionally condemns people to Sovngarde or mentions Talos in his war cries, but other than that nary a peep from him about Nordic religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    The Dominion invasion isn't inevitable. They are greatly weakened after the Great War. Hammerfeel already kicked their asses. Skyrim is a mountainous country, far from the Summerset Isles. Logistics would kill the invasion even before the Nord armies.
    Remember that Hammerfell was CRIPPLED by their war with the Dominion, and their relationship with the Empire suffered as a result of the conflict. It will take far longer for a solitary Hammerfell to recover than the Dominion, which was bloodied but not broken by that war. Hammerfell needs to rebuild just to be a credible threat again. The Dominion needs to rebuild so they have expendable troops again. That's a huge difference.

    With Hammerfell out of action, Skyrim is the last remaining big threat. You bet your ass they're going to try to crack that nut.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    The remaining provinces being... just High Rock whose importance is small. And why should people hate an Empire based on consent rather than constraint ?
    Why the alliance should be public ? "Dear Thalmor, there are just commercial exchanges..."
    They would trust Ulfric because they have no alternatives and he is a sworn enemy of the Thalmor.
    Here's the thing about Empires...they're not just good for the ruling line. There's a reason this is a civil war, and not just a war for control. A lot of Skyrimdes not want to leave the Empire because leaving it means forfeiting their benefits. Even discounting potential military aid, being a part of an Empire gets you favorable trade with others in the Empire, freely flowing resources, unrestricted travel, and the ability to raise your station in the eyes of multiple nations, among other things.

    This is not just an Empire based on constraint, as you put it. If all of Skyrim chose to leave, united, the Empire couldn't really stop them. If Ulfric wasn't a short-sighted fool, he probably could have managed that by siding with Torygg and swaying him into leaving the Empire. They could have used their new leverage in many ways.

    But he chose to forgo that route.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    So we agree that they both choose to fight ? Well then. If nobody shot first we have to look at who has the moral high ground. Ulfric wants to grant freedom to Skyrim. The Empire fights to allow Gestapo to operate. So it seems obvious to me that the Empire lacks good reasons. The only one that you provided is that the Empire needs resources for fighting the Dominion... which they do by expending resources fighting for the sake of the Dominion !
    Covered above. The Gestapo are here because Ulfric gave them an in. The Empire fights to remain an Empire, so they're not splintered nations that are easy pickings for the Dominion later.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Yeah. Instead the Empire cities are all so peaceful, efficient and beautiful. Not just like Riften that is controlled by the Mafia, or Markarth that is bloodied by terrorism.
    Point Markarth (my least favorite city in the game) but Riften is a Stormcloak city.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Names, please.
    I can name a racist ******* in the Empire ranks: general Tullius.
    Galmar Stone-Fist. His brother Rolff. Ulfric Stormcloak.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Given that there are so many people to reply with I made thematic spoilers. Comments of various users are mixed in.


    Spoiler: Torygg duel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    For one thing, the legality of the duel is questionable. Certainly most of the imperial supporters see it as murder. But besides that, Ulfric is a veteran warrior with a super weapon that cant be taken from him at his disposal, and Torygg is, frankly, still a kid as far as the nords are concerned. That's not an honorable duel, that's a massacre hiding behind tradition to try and justify it.
    The point of the duel is not to have a fair and balanced fight. The goal is to prove who is worth to be king. Ulfric was way stronger than Torygg, so he had the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If I bring a gun to a fencing match, does that make me smart, or a cheater and a murderer?
    It wasn't a fencing match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Remember that he had no choce but to accept the duel once the challenge was made. He was untrained and only let Ulfric into the throne room so he could talk with him and try to diplomatically sort things out between them.
    Ulfric's first course of action was to kill him, all so he could have a chance at the throne. By all accounts, Torygg would have likely allied with Ulfric, he practically worshiped the man. But Ulfric wanted to be in full control, not just have another province allied with his cause.
    Sybille Stentor says that the duel was public. She also sais: "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King"


    Spoiler: Causes of the civil war
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Ulfrics no victim. If you go jabbing a wasp's nest until they start stinging people, you don't get to blame the exterminators for not protecting you from the wasps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Again, none of this happened before Ulfric started the war. The "elf Gestapo" weren't a thing before that. Nobody was persecuted for their religion. Skyrim in particular was wiping its ass with the treaty for a good 26 years before Ulfric came along and turned a toothless document into an excuse for invasion
    People aren't animals. They are responsible for their actions. Ulfric stirred up trouble. Stupid, but not evil by itself.
    The Empire and Thalmor answered with Gestapo squads.
    If Trump invaded a country because the leader of that country insulted him who would you say is the bad guy ?


    Spoiler: Racism of the Stormcloaks
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Nobody is questioning that the Thalmor are racists though. The entire Stormcloak cause is built on the foundation of Nordic supremacy. That is fundamentally racist, even if it isn't overtly and equally oppressive in all areas of their domain.
    Yet nobody has even been able to provide evidence of this "foundation on Nord supremacy", besides the battlecry.
    All the example of racism are common to both sides and come from Nord culture, not from Stormcloaks agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Even the citizens of Windhelm note that Ulfric is putting on a show, and that once you get too far outside of the city walls, youre out of luck. The dunmer talk of caravans of dunmer refugees being outright ignored, while Ulfric meanwhile goes to great lengths to help out the nords in the wilderness.
    Ulfric goes to great lengths to help out the nords in the wilderness ? When he doesn't even have the time to address the serial killer issue ? I require proof of this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    With the Dunmer living in a ghetto and Argonians being forbidden from entering the city by Ulfric's decree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    *With the Dunmers confined to a ghetto and the Argonians not even allowed to enter the city (so are they even members of the city?).
    Argonians live that way in any city, even the Empire ones. And considering their hive mind it's not really just for prejudice. There are also Khajiit that you didn't mention. Maybe because they show how racism is common to both sides and has nothing to do with being a Stormcloak ?
    About the Dunmer it seems you have missed this part of my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Belyn Hlaalu is a Dunmer who owns a farm in Windhelm. He also employs a Nord farmer. Exactly.
    And there was also Voldsea Giryon that I mentioned early. But keep pretending you didn't see those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    "America for the Whites!" doesn't sound just a bit racist to you?
    Skyrim is mostly inhabited by Nords. It's a battlecry for independence.
    America for the whites sounds racist because of America history. Japan for the Japanese doesn't sound racist. African country X for the blacks isn't racist.


    Spoiler: Skyrim secession: Dominion invasion
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Of course the dominion invasion is inevitable. Have you been paying attention? They want to take over the world, and that includes Skyrim. Do you think theyre going to just ignore skyrim because its a little further away than Cyrodiil?
    What they want and what they could do are two different things. They couldn't take Hammerfeel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The Thalmor aren't idiots. "oh hey, were just supplying your enemies with supplies and resources, but we totally aren't allied with them, no not at all." Theyre barely getting away with it in hammerfell, and that's because Hammerfell is nominally hostile to the Empire too.
    So you contradict yourself in two sentences. They are already getting away with that. Hammerfeel is the proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Remember that Hammerfell was CRIPPLED by their war with the Dominion, and their relationship with the Empire suffered as a result of the conflict. It will take far longer for a solitary Hammerfell to recover than the Dominion, which was bloodied but not broken by that war. Hammerfell needs to rebuild just to be a credible threat again. The Dominion needs to rebuild so they have expendable troops again. That's a huge difference.

    With Hammerfell out of action, Skyrim is the last remaining big threat. You bet your ass they're going to try to crack that nut.
    That's just your opinion. Do you have evidence that the Dominion is in better state ? Considering the slow reproductive cycle of the elves I doubt they can have expendable troops soon... if they even had them at any time.
    The fact is that Hammerfeel won against the Thalmor. Skyrim is a lot harder to attack.


    Spoiler: Nord traditions
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The Greybeard's rules ARE Nordic tradition. The Greybeards are so respected by the people of Skyrim that even Ulfric couldn't openly disrespect them without basically abandoning his command.
    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    The Way of the Voice IS a nordic tradition and has been one for ages. He violated it as badly as possible.
    No, Greybeards rules are the rules of a little sect. Nobody in Skyrim ever mention them. I doubt they even know them, given how the Greybeards are isolated.
    The fact that they are respected means nothing. Or does the Star Wars galaxy follows Jedi rules ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Sooo, if some place had a tradition of eating people 5000 years ago, but decided against it 4000 years ago and kept things that way, which is their tradition: eating people or not eating people?
    They didn't decided against it. The Thu'um fell out of use, it wasn't banned.



    Spoiler: Relationship with the Empire
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Ulfric threw the first punch. Flat out. That isn't in dispute, even among the stormcloaks. And the empire doesn't "allow" the Thalmor to operate, because that implies the ability to prevent them from doing so. Between the treaties and the beating they were handed in the last war, they aren't in a position to stop the Thalmor from doing much of anything.
    But somehow they are in the position to fight the Stormcloaks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    And Cyrodiil - which would lose what little prominence it had left. Surely, the people would love that...
    So the motivation is mantaining the prestige of the Empire ? By looking as Thalmor slaves ? LOL
    Yeah, that's the problem. The Empire is a walking dead. They are just pretending it isn't. The sooner they understand that the better. The kindom of Cyrodiil at this point would work better that the Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    That would werk perfectly.
    Do you have any good reason for which it shouldn't ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    At least according to Rikke (who may be a bit biased), Nords make up the backbone of the Legion. A lot of Nords join up to find a purpose, as we can see in Whiterun and Dawnstar, so it's not an unlikely claim given Skyrim's high population and warrior culture that at least a significant portion (30%, perhaps) are Nords, or were before the Civil War (remember a LOT of Stormcloaks were former Legionnaires, like Galmar).
    Dumno. Without hard data we can't say sure. If it was true it would mean that Empire is really dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Here's the thing about Empires...they're not just good for the ruling line. There's a reason this is a civil war, and not just a war for control. A lot of Skyrimdes not want to leave the Empire because leaving it means forfeiting their benefits. Even discounting potential military aid, being a part of an Empire gets you favorable trade with others in the Empire, freely flowing resources, unrestricted travel, and the ability to raise your station in the eyes of multiple nations, among other things.
    They could gain the same benefits with trade agreements. They could have made a Commonwealth like institution.



    Spoiler: Riften and Markarth
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Riften is a stormcloak city, and Markarth is functionally a stormcloak city, even if the Jarl personally favors the Empire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    The Riften that is in Stormcloak territory? And the Markarth, where things are run mostly by a family of Stormcloak supporters?
    My bad about Riften. Still if the Empire wins Maven Black-Briar becomes Jarl, so things get even worse.
    And how are the Silver-Blood a family of Stormcloaks supporters ? They are just suspected to be willing to do anything for power. They didn't do a thing to help Ulfric.


    Spoiler: Ulfric goals and personality
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    His goal is free Skyrim under his rule.
    Sure. So what's the problem ? You hate the man so much that you prefer Skyrim under Thalmor oppression than a free Skyrim lead by Ulfric ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    His actions speak louder than his words. Of course he won't verbally disrespect tradition, his entire movement is based on populism and cultivating a nationalist identity.

    But where is his honor, exactly? What traditions does he follow, specifically, that mark him a "true Nord"? He occasionally condemns people to Sovngarde or mentions Talos in his war cries, but other than that nary a peep from him about Nordic religions.
    And what traditions did he break ? If he had the backlash from his followers would hit him really hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This is not just an Empire based on constraint, as you put it. If all of Skyrim chose to leave, united, the Empire couldn't really stop them. If Ulfric wasn't a short-sighted fool, he probably could have managed that by siding with Torygg and swaying him into leaving the Empire. They could have used their new leverage in many ways.
    Maybe. But the fact that Ulfric could have committed mistakes doesn't change the actual situation.
    This is just like saying that Chamberlain was responsible for WW2. Yeah, he made mistakes. But the fault lies in nazi Germany.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    I'm tired of having most of this conversation over again because you seem somehow incapable of realizing that just because the Thalmor are bad guys does not mean the Stormcloaks are good guys by default, because that's the crux of your whole argument. "The Thalmor are worse, therefore the Stormcloaks have to be good."

    Sybille Stentor says that the duel was public. She also sais: "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King"
    That's...what I said.

    That's just your opinion. Do you have evidence that the Dominion is in better state ? Considering the slow reproductive cycle of the elves I doubt they can have expendable troops soon... if they even had them at any time.
    The fact is that Hammerfeel won against the Thalmor. Skyrim is a lot harder to attack.
    They didn't win, though. They fought to a stalemate and the Thalmor gave up because it wasn't worth their time any more. All of the lore mentions things like the Redguards "suffered mass devastation all over southern Hammerfell" and other such things. No like mention is made of Thalmor losses.

    I'm not convinced that Skyrim is a harder nut to crack, given the reputation of the Redguards in Elder Scrolls lore. They are the most warlike of all the peoples in Tamriel, and are basically a mix of medieval Switzerland, Mongolians, and Vikings that inhabit a Middle East analogue.

    Everybody in Hammerfell knows how to fight, and they are unified. Even without the civil war Skyrim is not as unified, not as disciplined, and does not have the raw percentage of soldiers that Hammerfell does, with most of Skyrim's fighters being Legion soldiers.

    Plus I've always gotten the feeling people get a little tetchy about pushing the Redguards too far in any case. They're one rediscovered technique away from being the only country with a WMD in this universe.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2017-04-24 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacKnight View Post
    Ulfric goes to great lengths to help out the nords in the wilderness ? When he doesn't even have the time to address the serial killer issue ? I require proof of this statement.
    Brunwulf Free-Winter mentions it when giving us a mission to clear out a bandit cave.
    Whenever a group of marauders attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the horn and send the men. But a group of Dark Elf refugees gets ambushed? A group of Argonians, or a Khajiit caravan? No troops. No investigation. Nothing. There's a group of cutthroats out there right now that Ulfric doesn't lift a finger to bring to justice, as long as they don't threaten Nord land.

    Argonians live that way in any city, even the Empire ones
    Nope. Windhelm is the exception. Riften has Argonian innkeepers, while in Solitude they freely reside within the city walls.

    What they want and what they could do are two different things. They couldn't take Hammerfeel.
    When their forces were depleted due to having just fought a war against the Empire.

    No, Greybeards rules are the rules of a little sect. Nobody in Skyrim ever mention them. I doubt they even know them, given how the Greybeards are isolated. The fact that they are respected means nothing. Or does the Star Wars galaxy follows Jedi rules ?
    They are so unknown that they were referenced in cyrodilian gossip (in TES IV) and any guard may mention them when we shout. And Jedi did seem de facto Republic experts who oversaw the matters of the Force.

    They didn't decided against it. The Thu'um fell out of use, it wasn't banned.
    Using it for war was. By Jurgen Windcaller who defeated the greatest Tongues of his time without even having to harm them.

    But somehow they are in the position to fight the Stormcloaks...
    Stormcloaks are less than half a province - the Thalmor has three under their control. Quite a difference.

    Do you have any good reason for which it shouldn't ?
    Like the fact that he is a man who swore fealty to the Empire, but decided to act against it and undermine it?

    And how are the Silver-Blood a family of Stormcloaks supporters ? They are just suspected to be willing to do anything for power. They didn't do a thing to help Ulfric.
    Have you talked with Thongvor? He is all like "the Empire is weak and evil, Ulfric is the hero".

    Sure. So what's the problem ? You hate the man so much that you prefer Skyrim under Thalmor oppression than a free Skyrim lead by Ulfric ?
    Until he stirred up trouble the "oppression" was a ban on open worship of Talos - which everybody did anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    We know the worldbuilding is good when people take political sides and have heated debates about a fictional universe LOL.

    In my opinion the best factions are:

    -Meridia cult, the only Daedric prince I like. The undead are evil and have to die.

    -The Great House Telvanni.
    Forget the Mages Guild, Synod, College of Whispers and College of Winterhold, they are all dabblers compared to the might of House Telvanni.

    -Psijic Order.

    -Greybeards(F*** you Blades I will never kill Paarthurnax)

    Too bad we can't join any of these factions D:
    Shamash! The true sun god!

    Praise the sun! \o/

    I also have a DeviantArt now... Most are drafts of my D&D campaigns but if you want to take a look.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    We know the worldbuilding is good when people take political sides and have heated debates about a fictional universe LOL.

    In my opinion the best factions are:

    -Meridia cult, the only Daedric prince I like. The undead are evil and have to die.

    -The Great House Telvanni.
    Forget the Mages Guild, Synod, College of Whispers and College of Winterhold, they are all dabblers compared to the might of House Telvanni.

    -Psijic Order.

    -Greybeards(F*** you Blades I will never kill Paarthurnax)

    Too bad we can't join any of these factions D:
    I mean, you can form your own Meridia cult if you want. Whats she going to do, tell you to stop smiting undead with Dawnbreaker?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    [QUOTE=Rynjin;21948022

    Plus I've always gotten the feeling people get a little tetchy about pushing the Redguards too far in any case. They're one rediscovered technique away from being the only country with a WMD in this universe.[/QUOTE]

    They aren't. I mean, they have one, but if we go a bit in the past, so did the Dwemer, Dunmer, Imperials, Bosmer and maybe even Khajiit.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Oh, I love it when people bend over backward to deny institutional racism in fictional setting, as if it's a personal attack on their own honor. Ulfric Stormcloak is a power-hungry, glory hounding RACIST, and that's supported directly by all the lovely lore everyone with sense has been referencing. There is not a single redeeming quality to the man, unless you count aimless tenacity, which only counts if it's not aimed toward entirely selfish goals. But his army wears blue, so that makes him the Good Guy, I guess.
    I do not think the way you think. If you try to apply your own mindset to the things I say, there will be miscommunications. If something I say seems odd to you or feels like it's missing steps, ask for clarification. I'm not some unreasonable, unknowable entity beyond your mortal comprehension, I'm just autistic and have memory problems.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    We know the worldbuilding is good when people take political sides and have heated debates about a fictional universe LOL.

    In my opinion the best factions are:

    -Meridia cult, the only Daedric prince I like. The undead are evil and have to die.

    -The Great House Telvanni.
    Forget the Mages Guild, Synod, College of Whispers and College of Winterhold, they are all dabblers compared to the might of House Telvanni.

    -Psijic Order.

    -Greybeards(F*** you Blades I will never kill Paarthurnax)

    Too bad we can't join any of these factions D:
    Not all vampires are evil. Which is why the Dawnguard are better imo. Vanquish only evil undead.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    Oh, I love it when people bend over backward to deny institutional racism in fictional setting, as if it's a personal attack on their own honor. Ulfric Stormcloak is a power-hungry, glory hounding RACIST, and that's supported directly by all the lovely lore everyone with sense has been referencing. There is not a single redeeming quality to the man, unless you count aimless tenacity, which only counts if it's not aimed toward entirely selfish goals. But his army wears blue, so that makes him the Good Guy, I guess.
    Well, he was by most accounts a decent commander while being kept in check by his superiors, so I suppose he has that going for him? Feels like reaching for me. No, he's pretty thoroughly terrible.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Spoiler: Rynjin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'm tired of having most of this conversation over again because you seem somehow incapable of realizing that just because the Thalmor are bad guys does not mean the Stormcloaks are good guys by default, because that's the crux of your whole argument. "The Thalmor are worse, therefore the Stormcloaks have to be good."
    I never said that the Stormcloaks are saints. Being the good guy doesn't mean being perfect, just being better than the alternative.
    The Allies committed mistakes and crimes in WW2, but that isn't a good reason to stand for the Axis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    That's...what I said.
    I intended that you mean Torygg couldn't refuse the duel. He could, it woulds have discredit him and forced him to call the Moot, but he could avoid the duel.
    He knew he would have been killed, but chose that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    They didn't win, though. They fought to a stalemate and the Thalmor gave up because it wasn't worth their time any more. All of the lore mentions things like the Redguards "suffered mass devastation all over southern Hammerfell" and other such things. No like mention is made of Thalmor losses.
    Wasn't worth my time sounds so much like a loser justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'm not convinced that Skyrim is a harder nut to crack, given the reputation of the Redguards in Elder Scrolls lore. They are the most warlike of all the peoples in Tamriel, and are basically a mix of medieval Switzerland, Mongolians, and Vikings that inhabit a Middle East analogue.

    Everybody in Hammerfell knows how to fight, and they are unified. Even without the civil war Skyrim is not as unified, not as disciplined, and does not have the raw percentage of soldiers that Hammerfell does, with most of Skyrim's fighters being Legion soldiers.
    Hammerfeel wasn't unified. They had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears.
    I don't buy they are better warrios than the Nords. The Nords are a warlike civiization that is said to love war. And why should most of the Nords being Legion soldiers if Skyrim become independent ?
    Furthermore you aren't considering geography and logistics. Hammerfeel is near the Aldmeri Dominion and is a flat and hot country. Skyrim is far, mountainous and cold. An invasion of Skyrim would likely end like Napoleon invasion of Russia.



    Spoiler: Divayth Fyr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Brunwulf Free-Winter mentions it when giving us a mission to clear out a bandit cave.
    Brunwulf ? The guy who become Jarl if the Empire wins and then do nothing for Dunmer and Argonians ? But yeah, he isn't a power hungry maniac and liar, that's Ulfric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Nope. Windhelm is the exception. Riften has Argonian innkeepers, while in Solitude they freely reside within the city walls.
    Oh, my bad. Still in Solitude Athar says: "Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that." implying they weren't allowed under Torygg.
    And didn't you make me notice that Riften is a Stormcloak city ? Or the Stormcloaks are responsible only when stuff goes bad ?
    Also if the Stormcloaks win Teeba-Ei becomes housecarl in Morthal. An Argonian housecarl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    When their forces were depleted due to having just fought a war against the Empire.
    And Hammerfeel was strained by the civil war. Also you have to consider that elves replenish their numbers slower than humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    They are so unknown that they were referenced in cyrodilian gossip (in TES IV) and any guard may mention them when we shout. And Jedi did seem de facto Republic experts who oversaw the matters of the Force.
    My sentence was unclear. I meant that the Greybeards rules were unkown, not the Greybeards themselves.
    The Jedi are know and respected, but their rules apply only to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Using it for war was. By Jurgen Windcaller who defeated the greatest Tongues of his time without even having to harm them.
    Jurgen Windcaller founded the Greybeards. Again, that's not evidence that all Nords adhere to his views. Does anybody ever says that Ulfric broke the Nord Tradition by using the Thu'um in the duel ?
    Also there was the Imperial college of the Voice in Markarth, founded by Tiber Septim, whose views were different from the Greybeards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Stormcloaks are less than half a province - the Thalmor has three under their control. Quite a difference.
    So wouldn't the best course of action be saving resources for fighting the Dominion ?
    They are instead wasting men and money to prevent the Stormcloaks from driving away the Thalmor squads.
    Maybe they couldn't stop the Thalmor, but they could sure avoid fighting their enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Like the fact that he is a man who swore fealty to the Empire, but decided to act against it and undermine it?
    Like the Empire never betrayed Ulfric, right ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Have you talked with Thongvor? He is all like "the Empire is weak and evil, Ulfric is the hero".
    But his brother Thonar is the one that really lead the show. Thonar is the one responsible for basically everything that happens in Markarth and he never shows signs of support for the Stormcloaks.
    Thongvor doesn't even know about the Madanach stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Until he stirred up trouble the "oppression" was a ban on open worship of Talos - which everybody did anyway.
    But now the oppression is real. Again you are placing more weight on Ulfric role in the past than the current situation. Even assuming that Ulfric did everything he did knowing perfectly what would have happened then what ?
    You are siding with the Empire just to punish Ulfric ? For you letting the Gestapo win is an acceptable price ?
    Is just like saying that the Allies were wrong in WW2 because the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Even assuming that the Treaty is the only cause of WW2 (which is laughable) that doesn't justify siding with the Axis.
    Last edited by BlacKnight; 2017-04-25 at 05:32 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    SO. I started typing up a preamble and then my PC ate it. So I'll just go straight into the points.

    Reasons for Supporting the Empire and why most of them are wrong.


    1.) The Stormcloaks are Racist!

    Yes. Yes they are. So is literally everyone else in the Elder Scrolls Universe. Racism is empirically proven to be actually true in TES. It's a somewhat uncomfortable thing for us, because in our world, it's not. But that's the way the universe actually works in TES. The various races are in fact physically, psychologically, culturally, and magically different. This has a variety of in universe lore to support it, from the book "Notes on Racial Phylogeny" Which discusses interracial breeding and fertility and actually raises your restoration skill, implying that it actually increases your ability to treat injuries and biological knowledge. Mind you this is the same book that implies that Argonians are related to non-sentient tree lizards. From the creation of the Orcs from the Orsimer by the mystical aftermath of their god being eaten and digested.

    The people of Tamriel live in a world that is fundamentally built in such a manner that racism is an inescapable fact of day to day life. To expect them to have the same racial attitudes as modern earth is unreasonable.

    Are the Stormcloaks pleasant about it? Not particularly. However they are not entirely inapproachable. There is hope that with the proper encouragement their movement can grow beyond it. And there is even evidence to point towards this. The one Dunmer who works, actually says as much himself.

    Furthermore, interestingly enough. You can experience this in the reverse from none other than General Tullius. Who mocks and disparages the nords, their traditions, their attitudes. And pretty much everything about them as silly.

    So in short. Yes. They are racist. So is literally everyone else, the world is just built that way, and this is just something you're going to have to get over.

    2.) The Thalmor are the real Threat and we should be working together! The War is only draining the empires strength to no purpose!

    This is, partially true. The Thalmor are the real threat. And if there was some way to get the Empire to revoke the White Gold Concordat, then this point would be entirely and wholly true. The fact that the Empire won't revoke the White Gold Concordat turns this on it's head.

    It is established fact that the Thalmor lost, and are unable to sustain an offensive war against a lone province. Whatever the support in the forms of equipment they got from the Empire, it still implies that the Thalmor are unable to fight against even a fraction of the empires strength in an offensive war. And thus are no immediate threat to the Empires Sovereignty.

    This means that the White Gold Concordat, rather than a protective shield, keeping the Dominion at bay, is rather a poison slipped into the Empire. While the Empire likes to lay the blame for the inquisitors in skyrim at Ulfrics doorstep, do you honestly think they would have stayed away even if he had been quiet about it? They've shown they're not above planting evidence if it leads to something they want. They would have gotten their excuse eventually.

    No. The White Gold Concordat no longer serves a functional purpose following the war in Hammerfell. Revoking it would end Ulfrics rebellion in a heartbeat and would require no armed intervention on the Empires side. And furthermore costs the empire nothing. The Concordat was always a temporary measure. The Thalmor are no longer in a position to strike at the Empire. And therefor, appeasing them is no longer necessary.

    3.) Ulfric is a Terrible Person.

    He is indeed. He's a decent speaker, and a passable commander. With a strong sense of the heroic narratives that capture the Nords fancy. But he's also a power hungry glory hound. He is, without a doubt one of the worst possible people to have leading a rebellion.

    This does not mean he's wrong.

    Personally, I like Titus Mede. Though we meet him only briefly in the process of performing his assassination for the Dark Brotherhood, he reminds me a lot of Uriel Septim from Oblivion. And anyone with Picards voice can't be bad. But in the end, him being a good person

    does not mean his decisions are the right ones.

    He made a decision that saved his peoples lives in the short term, while endangering them in the long term. IF this had been recognized and the decision had been undone later, then it would have been a point in his favor. But he didn't. He stayed the course.

    In the end. Fighting for the Empire means fighting for the continuation of the White Gold Concordat. Which means that you're not fighting for the Empire. You're fighting for the Thalmor. Until such time as the Empire realizes this fact and revokes it, it cannot be considered anything but a puppet.

    The Thalmor Threat.

    The Thalmors strategy is clear from the in game evidence.



    This is a map of Tamriel. Notice anything interesting? The Aldmeri Dominion controls the Summerset Isles, with vassal states in the Valenwood, and Elsweyr.

    Initially, the Empire Controlled the Territories of Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and High Rock. Much of the Fighting took place in Cyrodiil itself. The Seat of the Empire. Clearly a war in the capital province is going to be highly unpopular, but the other Imperial Provinces are difficult to get to, Hammerfell aside for the Dominion. So first, The Dominion took strong offensive leads in the Province of Cyrodiil, then while the ruling Cyrodiilic elite is still panicking and prior to the mustering of armies from the other provinces proper, offer the white gold Concordat. Ceding control of hammerfell to the Dominion. Which, had things gone according to plan, would have given the Dominion a close border with ALL THREE remaining imperial provinces.

    First they demanded that the Empire cede control of Hammerfell. And now they push unrest in Skyrim. What does this do to the Empires territories?

    And the Empire simply blithely allows them to do it.

    From this, we have to assume that Imperial leadership is incapable of executing it's duties intelligently or does not desire to pursue further war with the Dominion. The empire is treating the White Gold Concordat not as a temporary patch, which could be understandable, but as iron law. To be defended at all costs.

    This is not the act of a sane actor. The only possible solution then is to dissolve the established power structure and hope that a better one can be installed in it's place. Is it a perfect plan? No. It's awful. But it's better than doing nothing. And Nothing is exactly what the empire is doing.
    Last edited by druid91; 2017-04-25 at 09:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Ulfric is playing so far into the Thalmor's hands here that they outright consider him an asset and resource to count on when making their plans.
    This is - an unsupportable interpretation of the sources. The Thalmor dossier on Ulfric describes him as "uncooperative", and makes it clear that the "asset" status is a reference to when he was captured during the Markarth Incident, which to remind you was twenty-five years ago. (Yes, we all know the timeline makes no sense. Still, there it is.) At that time he was played by the Thalmor, and that may (conjecturally) be part of the reason why he hates them so much (as if anyone needed more reasons). The dossier specifically says "Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant" - which is pretty much the opposite of "a resource to count on".

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Well gee, I guess Ulfric should have thought of that before starting a civil war and inviting the elf gestapo into Skyrim, shouldn't have he.
    Ulfric didn't start the war. He challenged the high king, the king accepted, and Ulfric won. Per Skyrim tradition and law, what followed should have been a moot to elect the next high king; but instead the empire stepped in and declared Ulfric murderer, traitor and outlaw. Ergo, it was the empire that started the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Except the stormcloaks do openly discriminate against elves. Their battlecry is "Skyrim for the nords!", the Dark Elves are confined to a ghetto in Windhelm and aren't even acknowledged outside of it. I can think of all of like two altmer who aren't Thalmor in all of stormcloak territory.
    In the first place, plenty of Imperial-aligned Nords can also be heard shouting "Skyrim for the Nords!". In the second place, the Dark Elves aren't "confined" to the Gray Quarter, they're frequently seen outside it, one of them runs a stall in the marketplace fercryinoutloud. In the third place, there are plenty of Altmer in Stormcloak territory - look down the list, I reckon it's about 50% of all named Altmer NPCs.

    (In fact, being a teensy bit anal myself, I went through the list. Discounting those who are openly Thalmor agents, or who are only encountered in dungeons and therefore their "home" is unknown, the following is a full list of named Altmer in the game:
    • Aicantar: Markarth
    • Ancano: Winterhold
    • Aringoth: Riften
    • Arivanya: Windhelm
    • Calcelmo: Markarth
    • Curwe: Whiterun
    • Endarie: Solitude
    • Faralda: Winterhold
    • Melaran: Solitude
    • Nelacar: Winterhold
    • Nenya: Falkreath
    • Niranye: Windhelm
    • Nirya: Winterhold
    • Nurelion: Windhelm
    • Reldith: Whiterun
    • Runil: Falkreath
    • Taarie: Solitude
    • Ulundil: Windhelm
    • Viarmo: Solitude

    By my count that's nine in Stormcloak, eight in Imperial holds, two in Whiterun. It could hardly be more balanced. Also noteworthy that if any or all of those holds switches to Stormcloak control - the Altmer, and the Dunmer for that matter, go on living exactly as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    And how could the citizens of the remaining provinces believe in an Empire that lets people secede whenever they see fit? How could the peace treaty hold if you're openly allying with people breaking most of its terms? And why would the Empire trust Ulfric?
    The Empire can't have it both ways. Either it's ready for another war, in which case it should be defying the Thalmor, or it's not, in which case it shouldn't be fighting in Skyrim. It could have done a deal with Ulfric as an ally. Instead it chose to make him an enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Similiarly Ulfric is an active subject in the war, he started it and before that he gave the Thalmor an excuse to go around kidnapping people - we know people worshipped Talos peacefully after the Concordate and only after Stormcloak openly defied it the hit squads appeared.
    Note, that was the Markarth Incident which was twenty five years ago. The Thalmor death squads have been in Skyrim all that time, protected by Imperial troops. And the only people who claim that Talos worship was widespread and "allowed" before then are Imperial partisans.
    Last edited by veti; 2017-04-25 at 09:58 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Maybe if I could understand the timeline properly, this would all be easier to parse. Like, apparently Ulfric killed Torygg 25 years ago, but Rogvir is just now being executed for letting Ulfric out, and Elisif is still completely new to the role of Jarl? Half the NPCs act like the war just started a few months ago, maybe a year or two, but there are others who say things like "When I was a lot younger, I was a Stormcloak." I don't remember ever learning when the Stormcloaks were formed, so it's hard to pin everything down. Were they around when Ulfric was just a normal Jarl? That would be kinda weird, and probably a bit of a red flag for the other Jarls, since none of the rest of them have their own personal armies.

    Either way, I can't stand Ulfric just by personality alone.
    I do not think the way you think. If you try to apply your own mindset to the things I say, there will be miscommunications. If something I say seems odd to you or feels like it's missing steps, ask for clarification. I'm not some unreasonable, unknowable entity beyond your mortal comprehension, I'm just autistic and have memory problems.

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Where did you get the idea the duel was 25 years ago? ARound that time were the Markarth Incident and Ulfric's capture by the THalmor, which are separate incidents.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Where did you get the idea the duel was 25 years ago? ARound that time were the Markarth Incident and Ulfric's capture by the THalmor, which are separate incidents.
    There is however some weirdness with people acting like the civil war has been going on for ages and eons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

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