Proposed changes to the PHB races:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Proposed House Alterations to D&D:

No Favored Class

Races: As the PHB except as follows:
+2 to any attribute at creation

Human:
-2 to any attribute
1 chosen skill is always a class skill (except UMD)

Dwarves:
-2 Dex
Small Size
Powerful Build
Loses:
Bonus vs orcs and goblinoids
Bonus vs giants

Elves:
-2 Con

Gnomes:
-2 Wis
Loses:
Bonus vs kobolds and goblinoids
Bonus vs giants

Half-Elf:
-2 Con
Martial Weapon Proficiency with Longsword or Rapier and Longbow or Shortbow (including composite versions) or
+1 skill points per level and 1 chosen skill is always a class skill (except UMD)
Loses: +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information

Half-Orc:
-2 Int
1 chosen skill is always a class skill (except UMD)
Orc Double Axe and Bastard Sword are treated as martial weapons

Halfling:
-2 Str

Changes: 2

[Luean]

Human:
Chosen skill is always a class skill

Does that mean, whenever I put a point in a skill, its a class skill?
If i put a point in every skill, is every skill a class skill?

That way, it would be easy to reach the prerequisits of some prestige classes.
You wouldn't have to spend points on crossclass skills or take a level in a class, just to gain the needed skills as class skills.

[Kurald Galain]

I notice everything is either "martial / divine" or "skilled / arcane" - I'd suggest more variety.

[Tormsskull]

I think half-orcs get way too much of a bump-up from their current position in default 3.5.

[Ceres]

Human:
Chosen skill is always a class skill

Isn't the bonus-feat good enough? UMD as a class-skill for all classes could be quite unbalancing.

Dwarves:
+2 Con, -2 Cha
Small Size
Powerful Build
Favored Class: Martial or Divine
Loses:
Bonus vs orcs and goblinoids
Bonus vs giants

I've always hated dwarves being medium-sized. Removing bonuses versus races is a good way to not make them too setting-specific also.

Half-Elf:
+2 racial on Charisma based skill checks
Chosen skill is always a class skill
Martial Weapon Proficiency with either Longsword and Rapier or Longbow and Shortbow (including composite versions)
Loses: +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information

This would apply well to half-elves raised by elves. But the proficiency-thing is more cultural than racial, right? I don't think half-elves raised by humans should get this. How about letting the player choose between this and the human +1 skill-point per level?

Half-Orc:
+2 Str, -2 Int
One chosen skill is always a class skill
Orc Double Axe and Bastard Sword are treated as martial weapons
Favored Class: Martial or Divine

Seems very powerful. For a fighter-style character the strength-bonus will be a way bigger bonus than the intelligence-penalty will be a penalty. Also, the proficiencies will make their base-damage even greater. In addition to this you have given them the opportunity to have UMD as a class-skill? This must be toned down, lest you want half your players to be half-orcs (Which would be silly, unless you run a very strange campaign where children between humans and orcs are the norm.)

All in all, good effort. But needs some work. Most of all I want to know: What is your goal in making these changes? How do you think they can improve a campaign?

[JackMage666]

Human:
Chosen skill is always a class skill

Prestige classes just got alot easier to get into. Buy, they are humans, they're supposed to be good at that sorta thing.

Dwarves:
+2 Con, -2 Cha
Small Size
Powerful Build
Favored Class: Martial or Divine
Loses:
Bonus vs orcs and goblinoids
Bonus vs giants

Woah now. Dwarves are already considered the most powerful PHB race. This just makes them stronger. Basically, they get almost everything they had before, but a +1 to attacks and AC, and a +4 to hide.
So, all they really lose is +3 AC against giants. Thats it. In turn, they get +1 AC against everything. The still get the +1 attack vs Goblinoids and Orcs, only now they get it to everything else, too. They've got a definate advantage now.

Elves:
-2 Con, +2 Cha
Favored Class: Skilled or Arcane

You don't like Elves much, do you. They lose Hit Points (important to all classes), but gain Cha (usually considered a dump stat). Not too much reason to play an Elf now.

Gnomes:
-2 Str, +2 Int
Languages: Instead of speaking language of chosen burrowing animal may speak language of familiar
Favored Class: Skilled or Arcane
Loses:
Bonus vs kobolds and goblinoids
Bonus vs giants

I always thought Gnomes should get Cha. Their language thing is a useless feature, as they get it as a familiar feature in later class levels.

Half-Elf:
+2 racial on Charisma based skill checks
Chosen skill is always a class skill
Martial Weapon Proficiency with either Longsword and Rapier or Longbow and Shortbow (including composite versions)
Loses: +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information

ALL Cha based skills? You mean Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform (all), and Use Magic Device (and Use Psionic Device if you're playing with Psionics). Thats +14, not including all the performs. Too many skill bonuses.

Half-Orc:
+2 Str, -2 Int
One chosen skill is always a class skill
Orc Double Axe and Bastard Sword are treated as martial weapons
Favored Class: Martial or Divine

The skill thing doesn't make much sense, since they get a penalty to Int (which governs skill points, so, in essence, skills).
The Bastard sword doesn't really make sense, since it's kinda a precision weapons (as all swords are), instead of a brute weapon. But Dwarves get the Dwarven Waraxe, so it's not unbalancing. Jsut doesn't really fit.

Halfling:
Favored Class: Skilled or Arcane

Don't fix what's not broke, eh?

Just some things I thought, is all.

[Darkkwalker]

On Gnomes. You gave them a penalty to STR and only one bonus. They need something more. I suggest a bonus to CHA or CON.

[TheOOB]

Hmm, a few things. First, it makes no sense to give the half races weapon proficiencies, weapon proficiencies are a cultural thing and half races tend to grow up in odd places.

-2 Str, +2 Int for gnomes is overpowering, a bonus to a mental stat is a very large power boost for a spellcasting character, and strength is an easy dump stat for many classes(just slightly below CHA in that respect).

Humans are allready powerful enough, they don't need anything else.

Elves are good as they where, -2 con is a minor penalty, and +2 CHA is huge for bards and sorcs and stuff, besides, elves have reputations for being rangers and wizards, neither of which gain benefit from CHA.

+2 to all CHA based skills is pretty huge (UMD for the win) for half elves. Instead I would keep the PHB half-elf, and either give them human skill points, or able learner as a bonus feat(allows you to put ranks in cross class skills on a 1 t 1 basis).

For a half-orc, taking away the CHA penalty allready balances it. I suppose a +2 to like intimidate and survival wouldn't hurt.

You just made dwarves even more nasty, they now get a +1 on everything combat related.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Does that mean, whenever I put a point in a skill, its a class skill?
If i put a point in every skill, is every skill a class skill?

That way, it would be easy to reach the prerequisits of some prestige classes.
You wouldn't have to spend points on crossclass skills or take a level in a class, just to gain the needed skills as class skills.

What I mean is that the player chooses one skill at first level to make a class skill for that character no matter what the class.

The intent is two-fold:
1) Humans, with their aptitude for learning could have something of a specialty skill for that extra skill point per level they get.
2) A boon to give to half races along with diluted versions of the other parent race's traits.

I notice everything is either "martial / divine" or "skilled / arcane" - I'd suggest more variety.

I'd happily make any changes suggested that make sense. This stat blocks, after all, are just a rough draft to get the collective creative juices in the forum going. As it stands I was simply expanding upon the single preferred class in order to cope with multi-classing penalties. As a DM I value players' freedom of expression, and sometimes that means an unholy amount of class hopping to get the mechanics to match the concept.

I think half-orcs get way too much of a bump-up from their current position in default 3.5.

Any ideas on what to get rid of? I recall reading another response about not adding Martial Weapon Proficiencies to half races. Would that do it for you?

Isn't the bonus-feat good enough? UMD as a class-skill for all classes could be quite unbalancing.

Perhaps if UMD was taken off the list it'd be less offensive a racial trait?

I've always hated dwarves being medium-sized. Removing bonuses versus races is a good way to not make them too setting-specific also.

I agree. It just seems so wrong to me that they are squat mediums when powerful build + small gives one a much better impression of what I feel they are like. As for the vs race traits... I see them as just a bleed over from LotR and whatnot, a trait I'd love to scrub from DnD as much as humanly possible.

This would apply well to half-elves raised by elves. But the proficiency-thing is more cultural than racial, right? I don't think half-elves raised by humans should get this. How about letting the player choose between this and the human +1 skill-point per level?

I like that idea. But are the possible free feats equal to a bonus class skill and a skill point per level?

Seems very powerful. For a fighter-style character the strength-bonus will be a way bigger bonus than the intelligence-penalty will be a penalty. Also, the proficiencies will make their base-damage even greater. In addition to this you have given them the opportunity to have UMD as a class-skill? This must be toned down, lest you want half your players to be half-orcs (Which would be silly, unless you run a very strange campaign where children between humans and orcs are the norm.)

Well, once again, if UMD was taken off the list would it be so bad? Perhaps I should just make it a flat Intimidate is always a class skill sort of thing to really show the limit human blood influences half-orcs in terms of mental agility?

All in all, good effort. But needs some work. Most of all I want to know: What is your goal in making these changes? How do you think they can improve a campaign?

The goal for all this is manyfold:
1) To make the racial stats match the fluff.
2) To make the races more generic so that they can be made to fit different settings easier.
3) To try and strike some sort of balance between the core races while adding a little more flexibility when possible.

The list goes on, but I seem to have forgotten the other half dozen items on it. In any case, as with the 30 Million Dollar Game, I'm just trying to redo a lot of the game as my own home brew generic core setting. However, unlike most home made rules, I want feedback from my peers in the gaming community to see if we can't discuss all the implications of rule alterations and see if we can't find as close to a universal agreement as possible. It's not about power gaming, it's about growth.

Prestige classes just got alot easier to get into. Buy, they are humans, they're supposed to be good at that sorta thing.

True. However, as I clarified above, it's a single skill as opposed to all skills. It would be madness otherwise.

Woah now. Dwarves are already considered the most powerful PHB race. This just makes them stronger. Basically, they get almost everything they had before, but a +1 to attacks and AC, and a +4 to hide.
So, all they really lose is +3 AC against giants. Thats it. In turn, they get +1 AC against everything. The still get the +1 attack vs Goblinoids and Orcs, only now they get it to everything else, too. They've got a definate advantage now.

The original build had them at a -2 Dex, +2 Con, but I convinced myself that it would be neat if they were the polar opposites of Elves attribute wise. that hit to Dex would kill the size mod to AC leaving them with the only real change being the +4 to hide. The bonus vs gobs and orks is taken away too by the by. Doesn't hurt to switch back to the original concept though I suppose. It does make for better balance and doesn't alter the fluff feel.

You don't like Elves much, do you. They lose Hit Points (important to all classes), but gain Cha (usually considered a dump stat). Not too much reason to play an Elf now.

Would you rather a swap out for Str? Elves are known for grace and beauty, not the ability to take a hit or beat things into submission. I was just following the fluff, while thinking that martial elves would make for great swashbuckler types while sorcerors seem to fit the elven racial magical leanings. Though I suppose having forever and a half to keep one's nose in a book helps a wizard... Really, I don't dislike elves, but I found myself at a loss with them. Does -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha seem any better?

I always thought Gnomes should get Cha. Their language thing is a useless feature, as they get it as a familiar feature in later class levels.

Just by fluff, they seem to be the tinkerers and inherent scholars of the world. As for the familiar feature... yeah. I don't know what I was thinking.

ALL Cha based skills? You mean Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform (all), and Use Magic Device (and Use Psionic Device if you're playing with Psionics). Thats +14, not including all the performs. Too many skill bonuses.

Well, I figure it's a fair trade for being the only non-human race with no attribute mods. Instead of the straight Elven +2 Cha, they have the touch of features that make Elves beautiful as well as the spirit of humanity which make them interpersonally compelling individuals. I've always hated half elves for being THE most sub par race without a +LA. This was my amends to the race as a whole while trying to stay within the realm of fluff.

The skill thing doesn't make much sense, since they get a penalty to Int (which governs skill points, so, in essence, skills).
The Bastard sword doesn't really make sense, since it's kinda a precision weapons (as all swords are), instead of a brute weapon. But Dwarves get the Dwarven Waraxe, so it's not unbalancing. Jsut doesn't really fit.

The skill thing I touched on above. Intimidate as a class skill was the original concept, but I didn't want to cheat half-orcs either. As for the weapon trait... I'm thinking of making the change to them that I was with the half-elf. Making the choice between non-UMD skill and the weapon trait.

Don't fix what's not broke, eh?

I love Halflings. I've heard complaints about every race BUT them in my gaming group. So unless someone has an idea, I like em as is.

Just some things I thought, is all.

thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. When I make changes, please feel free to PEACH the changes I make as well.

On Gnomes. You gave them a penalty to STR and only one bonus. They need something more. I suggest a bonus to CHA or CON.

If anything, you should be on my case about giving an Int mod to a core race... right?

Hmm, a few things. First, it makes no sense to give the half races weapon proficiencies, weapon proficiencies are a cultural thing and half races tend to grow up in odd places.

Yes. Those were addressed above. I'll be making changes after this post to better reflect that very issue.

-2 Str, +2 Int for gnomes is overpowering, a bonus to a mental stat is a very large power boost for a spellcasting character, and strength is an easy dump stat for many classes(just slightly below CHA in that respect).

What would you suggest? Perhaps a hit to Wis for the borderline psychotic tinker that lies dormant within all gnomes?

Humans are allready powerful enough, they don't need anything else.

Is the class skill thing really that big a boon? I didn't forsee this, of all the changes made, to be such an issue.

Elves are good as they where, -2 con is a minor penalty, and +2 CHA is huge for bards and sorcs and stuff, besides, elves have reputations for being rangers and wizards, neither of which gain benefit from CHA.

Ideally, I'd have Wis as the plus for elves to reflect the druid and ranger class leanings, but how the heck would I justify half-elves then?

+2 to all CHA based skills is pretty huge (UMD for the win) for half elves. Instead I would keep the PHB half-elf, and either give them human skill points, or able learner as a bonus feat(allows you to put ranks in cross class skills on a 1 t 1 basis).

Hmm. Would the possible changes above work well enough, or is there a specific reason you feel the Half-elf is pretty balanced as is that I don't see? I'm confused.

For a half-orc, taking away the CHA penalty allready balances it. I suppose a +2 to like intimidate and survival wouldn't hurt.

Yeah, like the original build. I think I'm going to have to make some changes real quick and see how you all feel about them.

You just made dwarves even more nasty, they now get a +1 on everything combat related.

Again, changes to be made. I'll be done in a jiffy.



Thanks for all the feedback folks. I appreciate it more than you know, even when my responses sound less than thrilled.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

>_> Just as an aside do any of you think the Race book races or the Warforged need to be reworked for balance/fluff reasons? I'm tempted to make changes to the WF so that they are less Eberron and more generic, but I dunno if that makes any sense given how unusual they are.

[Matthew]

Many Races are seriously unbalanced, especially as more variants are added. Personally, I would be inclined to 'strip down' many of them, so that they are actually less mechanically distinguished from one another.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Something akin to that other, and imho, much better racial modification thread?

[Matthew]

This one: Racial Modifications or another one?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50784

I've actually made some significant changes using a lot of the concepts found in this thread. Can't post those changes because they are not my own and I will not try and take credit from where it is due.

[Matthew]

Oh yeah, I have seen that Thread before. Something similar to that, yes. Though, I would probably be inclined to dispense with packages in favour of Racial Feats.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Could you give me an example of what you mean?

[Matthew]

Sure, basically it would work like this:

Humans would be the baseline, having 1 Feat drawn from anywhere and 23 discretionary Skill Points over the course of twenty levels.

I would consider this to be the equivalent of something like 5-6 Racial Feats (i.e. fairly low powered Feats, with 2-4 of them being 'Skill Focuses').

So, for instance, Lowlight Vision might be a Elven Racial Feat, Dark Vision a Dwarven Racial Feat, as might Proficiency (Swords), Proficiency (Bows), Proficiency (Spears) or Proficiency (Axes) and so on.

So, a typical Elf might be statted out:

Racial Feat 1 - Lowlight Vision
Racial Feat 2 - Proficiency (Swords)*
Racial Feat 3 - Proficiency (Bows)*
Racial Feat 4 - Alertness (+2 Listen, +2 Spot)
Racial Feat 5 - Investigator (+2 Search, +2 Gather Information)
Racial Feat 6 - Immunity to Sleep

or if a Fighter, maybe Weapon Focus (Swords) / Weapon Focus (Bows) so that they actually live up to their fluff reputations.

...something like that.

[JackMage666]

Woah now. Dwarves are already considered the most powerful PHB race. This just makes them stronger. Basically, they get almost everything they had before, but a +1 to attacks and AC, and a +4 to hide.
So, all they really lose is +3 AC against giants. Thats it. In turn, they get +1 AC against everything. The still get the +1 attack vs Goblinoids and Orcs, only now they get it to everything else, too. They've got a definate advantage now.

The original build had them at a -2 Dex, +2 Con, but I convinced myself that it would be neat if they were the polar opposites of Elves attribute wise. that hit to Dex would kill the size mod to AC leaving them with the only real change being the +4 to hide. The bonus vs gobs and orks is taken away too by the by. Doesn't hurt to switch back to the original concept though I suppose. It does make for better balance and doesn't alter the fluff feel.

The thing is, it doesn't balance the dwarves at all. It makes them a +1 LA. They get to use the same equipment, have the same base stat, have (almost) all the abilities of the regular PHB dwarf, but also get a +1 AC/attack againt EVERY other creature. The only loss they suffer is +4 AC vs giants, but they still get +1 against them due to size.
So, would you rather get +1 attack against goblins and orc, or +1 attack against everything (including goblins ang orcs)?
And, would you rather get +4 AC against giants, or +1 AC against everything (including giants)?
It's eveything a PHB Dwarf is, only better.

ALL Cha based skills? You mean Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform (all), and Use Magic Device (and Use Psionic Device if you're playing with Psionics). Thats +14, not including all the performs. Too many skill bonuses.

Well, I figure it's a fair trade for being the only non-human race with no attribute mods. Instead of the straight Elven +2 Cha, they have the touch of features that make Elves beautiful as well as the spirit of humanity which make them interpersonally compelling individuals. I've always hated half elves for being THE most sub par race without a +LA. This was my amends to the race as a whole while trying to stay within the realm of fluff.

It's too many skill bonuses, though. Normally races have, what +2 to 2 skills? This has +2 to around 7 skills, as well as every perform skill.
Also, your elves only have +2 Cha, which gives them +1 to Cha based skills due to ability modifier. So, +2 makes them seem more charismatic than elves in alot of ways.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Alright, I just edited the first post to reflect the current draft of the core races. It have been sitting on my desktop in this current incarnation for about a week and a half now. Still an active project.

Jackmage:
Dwarves: How would you suggest I balance them out?

Matthew:
Racial Feats: So you're suggesting that each race gradually evolve into their ethnic archetype over time as opposed to out of the gate?

[Matthew]

Well, that is one possibility and it would certainly make for a handy guide when doing so for LA +X Creatures as Player Characters. However, no, that's not quite what I had in mind.

Whilst it is certainly possible to suggest that Humans gain the equivalent of 5.6 Feats over the course of twenty levels (i.e. Open Minded 4.6 times and one other Feat at Level 1), I was actually talking about providing these 'low powered' Feats at Level 1, since it is the equivalent (just about) of what they already get. The modular nature of this would mean that it would be fairly easy to swap Feats in and out to customise the Character and achieve the desired Racial Archetype.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Oh, oh, oh! I see what you mean now. Something like a series of mini-feats that a character can choose from at creation. That's a fascinating idea! I think I'll use that. Sure it'll add another step to character creation, but with a system as simple as D&d, that's not so bad.

[Matthew]

Yeah, that is pretty much the idea. The first time I encountered the idea was in the AD&D 2e Skills and Powers supplement, where there was a list of Racial Abilities, each with a cost of 5, 10 or 15 Character Points. I use a similar sort of thing for my own AD&D game.

Just by way of exposition, usually, I don't allow Racial Skill Focuses to stack with normal Skill Focus Feats. Instead, I use a system where you can purchase Modifiers as partial Feats (removing Feats like Alertness and Skill Focus from the game). i.e.

+1 = 0.25 Feats
+2 = 0.50 Feats
+3 = 0.75 Feats
+4 = 1.00 Feats

with +4 being the maximum available Skill Focus Modifier.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's a lot more fluid. How does it affect balance?

[Matthew]

Well, I cannot claim to have tested it to breaking point or anything, but both the Racial Bonus Feats and Skill Focus variants seem to be balanced and work fine in my AD&D game.

Comparatively, it looks like this:

Default 3e
One Feat = +3 or +2/+2
Two Feats = +5/+2 or +2/+2/+2/+2
Racial Bonus + Two Feats = +7/+4 or +5/+5 or +4/+4/+3 or +4/+4/+2/+2
Racial Bonus + Three Feats = +7/+7 or +4/+4/+5/+2

Modified 3e
One Feat = +4 or +2/+2 or +1/+1/+1/+1, etc...
Two Feats = +4/+4 or +2/+2/+2/+2, etc...
Racial Bonus + Two Feats = +4/+4/+4 or +3/+3/+3/+3, etc...
Racial Bonus + Three Feats = +4/+4/+4/+4, etc...

So, in general, the tendency is towards slightly more overall value and flexibility, but a much lower cap on how high Racial Bonuses and Skill Focus type Feats can take such Modifiers.

As far as actual Racial Feats go, the tendency is towards a greater chance for abuse, as Players can ignore those Racial Benefits that would not contribute to their specialisation in favour of those that do. However, since most optimisers actively choose Races that benefit their Base Class choices and particular Specialisation, I would argue that this is a minor concern that is more than offset by the benefits of having customisable Races.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Well, it really isn't much of an issue given how players will wring the most benefit from a build as they can. Not all of course, but some.

[TheLogman]

I'm worried that using this, the lines between the different races, and their quirks, small bonuses, and the like would dissolve, leaving a minor stat subtraction, and nothing else.

Also, the ability to pick stats in a way that isn't equal is a little unsettling, but it doesn't bother me as much as the lack of differentiation, and the lack of flavor bonus.

[Matthew]

Each Race has it's own list of suitable Racial Feats, so you're probably worrying about nothing.

What are you referring to when you say "the ability to pick stats in a way that isn't equal is a little unsettling, but it doesn't bother me as much as the lack of differentiation, and the lack of flavor bonus."

Honestly, mechanics shouldn't contribute very much to flavour, they should merely support it. If you want to play an Elf or a Dwarf, the mechanical difference is much less important than the roleplaying element.

[ZeroNumerous]

My suggestion: Ability modifiers are plus or minus when compared to vanilla human. Humans should not have +/- anything, as they are vanilla human.