Pimp My Paladin: or, How Does This Archery Stuff Work, Anyway?

[Ellrin]

I'm building a new character for some modules my DM is going to be running in the near future, and I decided to do something I haven't ever done before, even in theorycrafting—a paladin. And since I've heard they're pretty good at it in PF, I decided to go ahead and do something else I've never done before and make an archery build. For reference, we're starting from level 1, and the DM is importing the 3.5 Flaw system (one allowed), so we can grab an extra feat at first level. I don't really see this going past mid-levels, either, so I'm focusing more on effectiveness at early levels.

I think I pretty much have the basic gist of things down. I'm going to be a human with a flaw (currently undecided) so that I can go ahead and get Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapidshot out of the way all at once. I'll probably get Deadly Aim with my 3rd level feat, and with most of the rest of the major archery feats being linked to BAB, I'll have to wait for the appropriate level on those.

I still feel like I'm missing something, though. I mean, from what I've heard, archery is supposed to be one of the best DPR combat styles in Pathfinder, yet for all the guides I'm looking at, I can't really see that much that can't be accomplished by a TWF build. I know a paladin's main claim to fame as an archer is his ability to go to town on a single (evil) target, so I'm not expecting the most optimized DPR possible on groups of mooks, but that's just normal paladin stuff, as near as I can tell. Is there some other angle I'm missing here, or is the advantage over TWF really just range? Any recommendations that'll help make my 'din squeak out a little more noticeable DPR once I'm out of smites?

Oh, and I'm trying to keep the build relatively simple, since my DM's got a lot on his hands and there's seven players, so I'm avoiding 3.5 content and most third party content, as well as optional rule systems like VMC (not that I have the feats to give up for VMC). These aren't his rules—he's open to pretty nearly anything on d20PFSRD—, just what I'd like to stick to help make things smoother.

[Kayblis]

You got your stuff right - pick the penalty-reducing feats first so you don't have headaches later. Archery is known for its DPR because you can get some ridiculous things with the right investment. Ex: Composite longbows add STR, feats like Manyshot have lower To-Hit penalty than usual iteratives, and the Splitting magic weapon property DOUBLES your arrows fired for the cost of a +3 enhancement to your bow.

Other weapon abilities like Force allow you to ignore DR, and you can enchant your arrows *separatedly*. So you can buy Arrows of Phasing(+2) that go through walls up to 5' thick, or buy Magebane(+1) Arrows for that sweet sweet +2/+2d6 on spellcasters, or even Seeking(+1) Arrows that ignore all forms of concealment. The best part is weapon cost is measured for 50 arrows and you CAN buy them separatedly. So a +1 weapon equivalent nets you 50 arrows of assorted effects of your choice. Get 5 of each major race-Bane or Element and go to town, as pulling an arrow from your quiver is part of your attack routine. Note that you can retrieve your used arrows and they keep being magical. Each arrow has a 50% breakage chance per use, 25% if made out of Hardwood.

I recommend a magic quiver for larger storage, I forgot its name right now. Also check out the Archery Handbook - it has all official arrow types for your paladin.

[Sayt]

The thing about archery is that you don't have to move to full attack, which is the the huge limiting factor on TWFing in general paladins. The only real way to get easy melee full attacks on Paladin is I guess mounted skirmisher.

Generally speaking Archery is better than TWFing because: You don't have to move to do it. Bonus attacks are more accurate (Rapidshot and Manyshot both are at full-BAB, whereas with TWF additional attacks are incrementally less accurate), and the problems with Archery, such as Wind Wall are slowly getting answers

[Geddy2112]

Yeah it looks like you have a good general build down. You could take the divine hunter archetype for even more archery focus, but vanilla paladins can do archery fine.

Just max charisma and dexterity, then constitution. You can dump everything else.

[BWR]

The normal archery feats should be fine. Being able to regularly get off those full attacks really makes a difference in your damage output compared to melee types who can't rely on enemies always being conveniently close by. I have a Divine Hunter in my group and he regularly does more damage than the melee paladin for this simple reason. You will deal less damage than a Fighter optimized for archery (unless you meet evil things, in which case they die hard), but your other abilities make you more versatile.

You got your stuff right - pick the penalty-reducing feats first so you don't have headaches later. Archery is known for its DPR because you can get some ridiculous things with the right investment. Ex: Composite longbows add STR, feats like Manyshot have lower To-Hit penalty than usual iteratives, and the Splitting magic weapon property DOUBLES your arrows fired for the cost of a +3 enhancement to your bow.

I'm pretty sure Pathfinder doesn't have Splitting or Force or hardwood arrows.

[Ellrin]

You got your stuff right - pick the penalty-reducing feats first so you don't have headaches later. Archery is known for its DPR because you can get some ridiculous things with the right investment. Ex: Composite longbows add STR, feats like Manyshot have lower To-Hit penalty than usual iteratives, and the Splitting magic weapon property DOUBLES your arrows fired for the cost of a +3 enhancement to your bow.

Other weapon abilities like Force allow you to ignore DR, and you can enchant your arrows *separatedly*. So you can buy Arrows of Phasing(+2) that go through walls up to 5' thick, or buy Magebane(+1) Arrows for that sweet sweet +2/+2d6 on spellcasters, or even Seeking(+1) Arrows that ignore all forms of concealment. The best part is weapon cost is measured for 50 arrows and you CAN buy them separatedly. So a +1 weapon equivalent nets you 50 arrows of assorted effects of your choice. Get 5 of each major race-Bane or Element and go to town, as pulling an arrow from your quiver is part of your attack routine. Note that you can retrieve your used arrows and they keep being magical. Each arrow has a 50% breakage chance per use, 25% if made out of Hardwood.

I recommend a magic quiver for larger storage, I forgot its name right now. Also check out the Archery Handbook - it has all official arrow types for your paladin.

I completely forgot about ammunition being able to be enhanced separately. How do the base numerical enhancements of a magic bow and magic ammo overlap/stack? I assume you can't go past +5, but is a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow (or vice versa) effectively +1, +2, or, dare I to dream, +3?

Whatever the case, thanks for pointing out the flexibility of magic ammo, and I suppose I wasn't giving the not-having-to-use-move-actions bit the due it's really worth, as you've all pointed out.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, being able to Full Attack virtually every round is the biggest perk.

Manyshot is also an awesome upgrade in PF, as it's just extra damage with no strings attached, as opposed to the hefty penalty in 3.5.

Another important boon is that you are less MAD than TWFers. Thanks to Deadly Aim you can focus entirely on Dex and get a better ROI to boot, and any excess Str is just gravy.

So long story short, Archery is the superior Damage-dealing style in PF - so much so that some groups have trouble finding volunteers for the front line. And here's the crux; if nobody wants to be melee, everybody will be melee. ;)

[Florian]

II still feel like I'm missing something, though. I mean, from what I've heard, archery is supposed to be one of the best DPR combat styles in Pathfinder, yet for all the guides I'm looking at, I can't really see that much that can't be accomplished by a TWF build. I know a paladin's main claim to fame as an archer is his ability to go to town on a single (evil) target, so I'm not expecting the most optimized DPR possible on groups of mooks, but that's just normal paladin stuff, as near as I can tell. Is there some other angle I'm missing here, or is the advantage over TWF really just range? Any recommendations that'll help make my 'din squeak out a little more noticeable DPR once I'm out of smites?

As others already wrote, the main strength of archery is the ability to full attack and don´t care about positioning and movement all too much, as well as having all relevant feats directly contribute to this combat style without having near useless tax feats to pick.

Now paladins can bond with their bow, allowing to pick the most interesting weapon enhancements while using their bond to keep the straight "plus" on the relevant level to deal with DR and having some great buffs that will enhance overall performance even before smite evil comes into it. The traits Fate´s Favored and Optimistic Gambler are practically mandatory to work with Divine Favor and Wrath.

Some considerations:

Divine Hunter or Oath of Vengeance? DH is more geared towards ranged combat with Precise Shot as bonus feat, while OoV allows to convert Lay on hands into Smite Evil, drastically improving DPR. OoV also adds Wrath to the spell list, one of the best low level buffs (could also be done with the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat).

Oradin or not? 1-3 levels of Life Oracle (3 levels with the Pei Zin archetype) give the ability to lifelink, making the archer paladin into a great healer without having to focus all that much on it or spending any actions. Works great with OoV and Extra Lay on hands.

Melee archer or not? The only real downside of an archer paladin is having the front liners out of range of the auras. Throwing Point-Blank Mastery into the build would allow you to be closer to the frontline.

[stack]

I would recommend oath of vengeance. You need the extra smites, the normally progression is pathetic.

[Ellrin]

Now paladins can bond with their bow, allowing to pick the most interesting weapon enhancements while using their bond to keep the straight "plus" on the relevant level to deal with DR and having some great buffs that will enhance overall performance even before smite evil comes into it. The traits Fate´s Favored and Optimistic Gambler are practically mandatory to work with Divine Favor and Wrath.

Using divine favor and/or wrath seems like a heavy trade-off in action economy considering both spells are standard actions and a Paladin has that -3 caster level slowing down the bonus progression those spells offer. I could always shore that up with feats, I suppose, but I don't think I'm going to have many extras between all the archery feats. Does it still work out as a solid use of a turn (or two) to cast one or both of those at low-mid levels?

As for archetypes, I actually have my eye on Tortured Crusader. Partially it's the flavor (the description is a bit too grimdark, but I like the idea of a jaded paladin), but partially it also seems like a lot of the stuff it gives up--particularly the party buffs--aren't going to make a huge difference, since the rest of the party, from what I've heard, is pretty melee-focused. It gives me more skill points, useful class skills, and a focus on Wis instead of Cha so I can be less useless out of combat (and we already have a face), a lay on hands to smite evil exchange a la the OoV pally, the ability to set up a contingency lay on hands for an emergency survivability boost, and if I ever get to level 11, last stand could let me absolutely wreck a BBEG. Giving up Divine Grace hurts, and it'd be nice to help out the rest of the party more, but overall it seems pretty workable for an archer paladin.

[Florian]

Notice the two traits I mentioned. Fate´s Favored gives a +1 to any luck bonus you gain, that scales Divine Favor from +2 to +4. The 1 minute duration makes it a great pre-combat buff. optimistic Gambler adds 1d4 to the duration of morale effects, working on bardic music as well as spells like Wrath, so also making it possible to use it as a pre-combat buff and works well with a rod of extend spell.

Tortured Crusader is a rather nice archetype. An interesting option would be Erastil´s Blessing, turning ranged combat from Dex to Wis, allowing for either a very high Con or Str to go with the bows.

[Ellrin]

Notice the two traits I mentioned. Fate´s Favored gives a +1 to any luck bonus you gain, that scales Divine Favor from +2 to +4. The 1 minute duration makes it a great pre-combat buff. optimistic Gambler adds 1d4 to the duration of morale effects, working on bardic music as well as spells like Wrath, so also making it possible to use it as a pre-combat buff and works well with a rod of extend spell.

Hmm, I'll probably be pumping stealth and perception, so I might just be able to get away with a couple pre-combat rounds, too.

Tortured Crusader is a rather nice archetype. An interesting option would be Erastil´s Blessing, turning ranged combat from Dex to Wis, allowing for either a very high Con or Str to go with the bows.

That sounds great, but it doesn't look like it changes anything about qualifying for other feats, meaning that if I drop Dex as a main stat, I won't be able to qualify for most of the major archery feats. Wouldn't be as bad on a ranger or zen archer where I could ignore prereqs with my bonus feats.

Now if only there were some way to add Wis to damage... sigh.

[the_archduke]

Tempered Champion

I'll just leave this here

[Ellrin]

Tempered Champion

I'll just leave this here

That was another archetype I was looking at. The option to grab the Weapon Focus and Spec feats for free is appealing, but there's not a lot else there for an archer, and giving up even paladin casting for that seems a bit steep, since it also means I can't even use the wands without UMD.

Unfortunately I doubt that I'll be playing this character to a late enough level for the sacred weapon damage scaling to matter.

[the_archduke]

I am building a halfling slinger paladin and just found this. Sacred weapon on a sling is fantastic.

[Ellrin]

Okay, so I've been poking around the paladin spell list looking into what I could actually do with it, and I found saddle surge.

After brushing up again on how ranged mounted combat works, it looks like (a) you can make a full attack from atop your mount while it's moving, and (b) if you do that and your mount only moves up to its normal speed (ie, it's not making a double move or running), you can attack with a ranged weapon without penalty.

Now saddle surge gives a 1 round morale bonus to damage equal to the distance your mount moves in that round divided by 5 (that is, +1 for every 5'). Your quintessential mount, the horse, has a speed of 50'. This effect lasts 1 round/caster level, so when you first get access to second level paladin spells, that's 4 rounds.

Assuming the battle was taking place on an open field and you had the ability to move around freely, it sort of sounds like you could skirt around the edges of the battlefield, riding your horse 50' every round, making a full attack, and getting a +10 morale bonus to damage on every attack (well, once you reach CL 10, anyway, since your CL is your cap). And... there's basically no downside other than requiring lots of room and hopefully being able to position yourself for ideal LoS?

Am I missing something here, or is this really just as amazing as it sounds? Also is my DM going to start throwing books at me?

Spell description below for convenience.

You and your mount form a perfect synergy that endows both of you with advantages based upon how far you travel each round. For every 5 feet your mount moves in a given round, you gain a +1 competence bonus on Ride checks and both you and your mount gain a +1 morale bonus on damage rolls made with weapons or natural attacks for 1 round. For instance, if your mount traveled 40 feet in a round, you would gain a +8 bonus on Ride checks and you and your mount would both gain a +8 bonus on damage rolls for 1 round, to a maximum bonus equal to your caster level. You must be mounted to enjoy the benefits of this spell. If you dismount, get knocked off, or take any other action that separates you from your mount, the spell immediately ends.

[Florian]

Works as intended and also hits really hard with a lancer, too. The Paladin spell list is pretty good, in that it supports what this class is really good at. Take a look at the Litanies, Angelic Aspect line, Archon´s Aura and Prayer, too. Don´t discount LoH. A Paladin can always use it on himself as a free action and the upgraded variants (Greater Mercy, Ultimate Mercy feats) pack quite some healing oomph.

[BWR]

Don´t discount LoH. A Paladin can always use it on himself as a free action

Swift action, which really cuts into the paladin's action economy considering how many swift action things they have going. LoH, smite, Litanies, Heroic Defiance, Paladin's Sacrifice, etc. The paladins in my group never have an unused swift action and are frequently debating which ability they wish to use their SA on.

[Florian]

I think we´re still at the topic of the Tortured Crusader and the Second Chance ability?

[HamaYumi]

I'm really hoping for someone to chime in on a sacred servant build. Or a build that is a rez bot starting around level 4/5, which depends on if you retrain some feats. Or a build that stacks a ton of smite evil to use Bracers of Celestial Intervention

[Florian]

I'm really hoping for someone to chime in on a sacred servant build. Or a build that is a rez bot starting around level 4/5, which depends on if you retrain some feats. Or a build that stacks a ton of smite evil to use Bracers of Celestial Intervention

Why? The OP especially asked for an uncomplicated archer paladin that can be handled quick and easy in a rather large group. Exploiting the bracers/building a rez-bot is neither uncomplicated, nor archery and actually not really fun.

Edit: For completenes´ sake: This is about getting 10/18 LoH as quick as possible. Ultimate Mercy allows to trade 10 LoH for a standard action Raise Dead, OoV allows to swap 2 LoH for a Smite Evil, the Bracer allow to trade Smite Evil for Summon Monster on a 1/use per level of the spell. So 18 LoH equals 9 smite equals a Summon Monster IX spell. Yes, that´s a nifty trick, but very costly to pull off.

[Psyren]

Assuming the battle was taking place on an open field and you had the ability to move around freely, it sort of sounds like you could skirt around the edges of the battlefield, riding your horse 50' every round, making a full attack, and getting a +10 morale bonus to damage on every attack (well, once you reach CL 10, anyway, since your CL is your cap). And... there's basically no downside other than requiring lots of room and hopefully being able to position yourself for ideal LoS?

Whether you intended to or not, you pretty much hit on the glaring downsides of most mounted strategies.

Swift action, which really cuts into the paladin's action economy considering how many swift action things they have going. LoH, smite, Litanies, Heroic Defiance, Paladin's Sacrifice, etc. The paladins in my group never have an unused swift action and are frequently debating which ability they wish to use their SA on.

You shouldn't always need to heal though. Similarly, you shouldn't always need to attack or cast - trade your standard for a swift by readying it.

Having multiple viable choices to use your actions on is a good thing; it means combat is an interesting puzzle rather than a dull slog.

[Ellrin]

Whether you intended to or not, you pretty much hit on the glaring downsides of most mounted strategies.

It's why I don't usually bother investing in mounts, but this seems to require such a low investment to pay off (you don't even really need any part of the mounted combat feat tree) that it seems worth sinking some ranks into Ride and some gold into a mount. You can even use carry companion and just keep your mount in your pocket permanently until you actually need him.

[Florian]

It's why I don't usually bother investing in mounts, but this seems to require such a low investment to pay off (you don't even really need any part of the mounted combat feat tree) that it seems worth sinking some ranks into Ride and some gold into a mount. You can even use carry companion and just keep your mount in your pocket permanently until you actually need him.

You can always go Halfling on a riding dog and park it with a "hosteling" enhancement on your armor.

[Firechanter]

Swift action, which really cuts into the paladin's action economy considering how many swift action things they have going. LoH, smite, Litanies, Heroic Defiance, Paladin's Sacrifice, etc. The paladins in my group never have an unused swift action and are frequently debating which ability they wish to use their SA on.

Yeah, good point. I currently play a PF Paladin for the first time, so I don't have first-hand experience yet. I was thinking about going for an Intimidation build with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful, but on second thought, I might simply not be able to use it reliably because there's so much to do with the Swift Action already. So I'll probably go for a more conventional build instead.

[Barstro]

If your table actually adheres to "soft cover" rules, you might want Deadeye Bowman trait.

Benefit(s) When you are using a longbow, if only a single creature is providing soft cover to your target, your target does not receive the +4 bonus to AC.

[Florian]

Yeah, good point. I currently play a PF Paladin for the first time, so I don't have first-hand experience yet. I was thinking about going for an Intimidation build with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful, but on second thought, I might simply not be able to use it reliably because there's so much to do with the Swift Action already. So I'll probably go for a more conventional build instead.

Running out of swift actions is pure theorycraft until you hit endgame levels. Even a good resource-conversion build lacks the endurance to activate everything, every round, for more than one combat or tackle four regular encounters in a row.
Keep in mind that without self-buffing, a Paladins performance is worse than a Fighter, so you´ll have to reserve a good chunk of spell slots and WBL (Pearls of power, staves, wands) on this, leaving not that much wiggle room for litanies/martyr spells.

Edit: Do the math. With or without conversion, you´ll have around 1/2/3 LoH per Encounter in a series of four encounters, 1/4 to 1/1 Smite Evil in the same range bracket, double that with a good conversion build. That leaves you with, roughly, a maximum of 1 swift action spell per spell level for 4 encounters.

[Firechanter]

Question about the Bracelets of Celestial Intervention: how long do the Summons stay?
Dumping all your Smites and LoHs for a summon that stays a single encounter seems a bit steep...

[Florian]

Question about the Bracelets of Celestial Intervention: how long do the Summons stay?
Dumping all your Smites and LoHs for a summon that stays a single encounter seems a bit steep...

The usual: Actual CL or minimum CL for the summon spell - So up to 18 rounds.

That´s why I wrote it looks good on paper, as in theorycraft, but you´re better of simply smiting.

Edit: It only gets interesting with the Summon Guardian Spirit feat.

[Firest Kathon]

I completely forgot about ammunition being able to be enhanced separately. How do the base numerical enhancements of a magic bow and magic ammo overlap/stack? I assume you can't go past +5, but is a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow (or vice versa) effectively +1, +2, or, dare I to dream, +3?

The numerical enhancements of bows and arrows overlap, so a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow results in +2.

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

But it is still useful to get some rarely-needed enchantment (and special materials) on the arrows, and the stuff you always need on the bow (e.g. +1 Outsider (evil)-bane cold-iron arrows).