Disparity in players ability to solve puzzles

[Danielqueue1]

I enjoy puzzles. I am relatively good at puzzles. when our party entered a puzzle heavy dungeon, I was excited. however neither I nor the DM expected how quickly I would solve the puzzles. I had the answer to the sphynx's riddle 2 lines into it. I called out the correct answer for a dangerous puzzle before the DM started the Countdown timer. each of the puzzles in the dungeon so far could lead to very dangerous encounters or other potentially lethal effects so I don't exactly want to intentionally get it wrong for story purposes. the DM mentioned off hand that he was considering "limiting" my character's ability to solve puzzles and I definitely see where he is coming from. so I guess the question is;

how would you recommend playing a game where you already know the answer to the puzzle but the other players do not, and an incorrect response might well kill half the party?

P.S. My character is a valor bard (5e) that I am playing like a boisterous bruiser. as a bard it makes sense for him to be good with riddles and puzzles so there hasn't been any role-playing issues with "since when did the barbarian learn algebra."

[Koo Rehtorb]

If you know the answer to a puzzle then I don't think there's anything wrong with answering it? That seems entirely reasonable to me.

Personally I think puzzle dungeons are an inherently stupid concept, but that's me.

[hymer]

I guess you could let the others have a go some of the time (like in the timed event, when you could just call out the answer towards the end if nobody else managed it), but I don't think you did anything wrong.

[RazorChain]

Personally I think puzzle dungeons are an inherently stupid concept, but that's me.

I agree, a dungeon is where you keep your prisoners not your puzzles

[Winter_Wolf]

I agree, a dungeon is where you keep your prisoners not your puzzles

Chapter 3 of NWN Hordes of the Underdark. Those guys don't get it. One of the npcs actually says, and I kid you not, "stop them! They're after our puzzlesss!"

But anyway. Look some people are just good with puzzles and riddles. I'm not, and I don't care for them, but if a player was bonkers good at them I wouldn't hold it against them. If you really need some sort of "in character" justification (and I don't think you do), you're playing a bard. Bards know all sorts of seemingly useless trivia and stories and whatnot. If your GM is so hurt that he's not the Puzzle Mastah of the group that he's going to get punitive, I'm not sure what would help you get him on your side.

[Lo'Tek]

So in a world of riddle-monsters and puzzle-dungeons,
this group of heroes has a trivia-bard to hard-counter.

Makes perfekt sense to me.

What are the other party members responses to this?
Are they annoyed by you solving the riddles too fast?
Maybe the issue is not with knowing the right answer,

but not knowing when to tell it.

[jayem]

...the DM mentioned off hand that he was considering "limiting" my character's ability to solve puzzles and I definitely see where he is coming from. so I guess the question is;
...

It sounds like you're both with the same objective, which is good.
I'd hope he recognises if you weaken your character's skills, that you've done that at his request. You've done it so he can make things more interesting and a better game, his side of the bargain is that he has to do that and not proclaim instant party kill.

[Darth Ultron]

how would you recommend playing a game where you already know the answer to the puzzle but the other players do not, and an incorrect response might well kill half the party?

It can be a burden being smart....

You might ask the DM for harder puzzles. Maybe have him test the puzzles on you before the game? Tell him to go to ''Puzzle.com and get some of the ''hard'' puzzles.

You could always....be sneaky and pretend not to know the answer. You can pretend your character does not know or you can have them know and just keep quiet....you know for some sneaky reason.

[Crusadr]

You mention that you enjoy the puzzles, how do the other players feel though? Does the DM put them in for themselves or for you guys? Either way it's not a problem caused by or for you. Your DM either needs to take them out, make them harder, or design them in a way that each party member needs to contribute to their own piece of the puzzle.

[GPS]

Wait wait wait. I know this is besides the point, but your group didn't know the answer to the sphynx's riddle? How have they survived this long? That's like, the classicest of all classic riddles. I heard that for the first time when I was in the 6-8 range. Look at this post! I can barely grasp the basic grammar concepts and spelling, yet even I know the answer is "man". Did your DM use a different riddle or something?

[Honest Tiefling]

Going to second waiting a bit to give the answer to the DM. If the DM punishes you for this, do speak with them.

But I must ask...Does anyone else in the group care? Personally, I am crap at puzzles, but if a player was having a blast with them and wasn't spotlight hogging, okay, now's your time to shine, go for it. Consider asking the DM to give the spotlight to others after the puzzle dungeon. A backstory quest is always a good idea in situations like this.

A third option is peppering in some puzzles that require the aid of the group, such as a puzzle hinging upon defeating golems in a particular order. Sure, you know the order, but I doubt you'd be able to defeat them all in battle on your own. If you can, you might have a different problem. Another puzzle might require touching plates in a certain order, but they're not easy to get to, letting the fighter have a chance to be useful. Perhaps the builder of this dungeon was a jerk-face and made it so a final puzzle could only be solved with a particular spell, because he didn't want any filthy mundanes solving it, letting the team wizard have a go.

Or, yanno, an enemy bard to punch, who might have some clues on their person...So the team either wants to cut a deal with the bard, or to punch their lights out and take their things. Or both, depending.

Another option is to ask the DM for the puzzle dungeon to give non-bard loot. Yeah, you're solving it, but you guys, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOT.

[Samzat]

Have your GM make a final puzzle that, while it can be solved, takes time and is complicated by combat or another pressuring factor. If he just doesnt want you to solve the puzzles as easy, then either they need harder puzzles or you might wanna reconsider your choice of GM (if this person intends to do exactly the same thing but make you not allowed to succeed arbitrarily, then they are obviously a bad GM).

[GreatWyrmGold]

How would you recommend playing a game where you already know the answer to the puzzle but the other players do not, and an incorrect response might well kill half the party?

I would recommend you not do that. And not just for the obvious reasons, either. Tell the DM something along the lines of the following:

"Riddle puzzles like this are a no-win situation. If we can figure out the answer, that's that; barely any challenge, no fun. If we can't, we run into some kind of overpowered punishment scenario; no chance, no fun. I get that you want us to do more than hack-and-slash, and that's great, but this isn't the best way to do that. Maybe try borrowing inspiration from video games; they've got all sorts of crazy puzzles, I'm sure you'll find something that fits. I hear Resident Evil is full of weird locks. Or just give us role-playing challenges, or something. Or maybe something along the lines of those things where someone describes a weird situation, then other people ask yes-or-no questions about it, and people have to guess what's going on. Heck, give us a more nuanced riddle and let us feel safe making some guesses. This system you tried was a nice experiment, but not a successful one."

[Arbane]

One problem with puzzles is when the player can't solve a problem that by rights their character would figure out at a glance.

[Telok]

One problem with puzzles is when the player can't solve a problem that by rights their character would figure out at a glance.

It also depends on the delivery. I once had a GM who thought that reading the front and back of a 3x5 notecard with a riddle involving "knights" and "nights" (about ten references total, never did figure out the ratio) was a good idea*. After the third repeat I gave up and just had my character try to murder the riddle-guy.


* To be honest he also thought that three 33% success chances equalled a 99% success rate. Really it's about a 70% success rate.

[Quertus]

So, here's the thing: are these riddles, that you are answering because you've heard them before, and know the answer? Are these puzzles, that you are answering because you've heard them before, and know the answer? If "yes", then stop.

Are these riddles you've never heard before, but you are clever enough to figure out, sometimes before the GM finishes telling you the riddle? If "yes", then you are amazingly good at riddles. Stop. See if you can get into the Guinness book of records or something.

Are these puzzles you've never heard before, but you are clever enough to figure out, sometimes before the GM finishes telling you the puzzle? If yes, then you are probably psychic. Stop. Go do something useful, like winning the lottery and paying my bills.

Is your character smart enough to be solving these riddles? If not, stop. Roleplay your character better.

However, if your character is just that smart, and your just really good (but not supernaturally good) at solving puzzles / riddles, then keep at it. Oh, and join me for a game in another life, so we can see who solves more puzzles / riddles faster.

[Frozen_Feet]

You do what you'd do in any other party game where it's obvious you're a better guesser than the rest: you shut up long enough to see if anyone else have a clue, and if not, you then hint them that you might know the answer.

Overall, the plainest, common sense solution disparity in player skill is to teach the weaker players to be better at whatever game is being played. That's something you can do during a game, even when you're a player yourself. If you are clever, you can even do it in-character.

Most other "solutions" tend to dodge the problem rather than actually solve it, or they just shift the problem around.

[Xuc Xac]

Tell you DM to make puzzles that require more than just saying the answer. "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path" as they say.

For example, the Sphinx riddle. The answer is "man", but you can't pass the puzzle by simply saying "The answer is man". You have to push the correct button to open the door to proceed. The buttons are on the ceiling tiles and they are labeled in an archaic language. You know the answer but the other PCs need to help in pushing that button.

[ross]

Has your GM tried using puzzles / riddles that aren't thousands of years old and easy as **** to solve?

Last time I did something like that, I had my players navigate a 5d manifold; they were in there for a while, and these are guys that play mindtrap for fun

[Deophaun]

One problem with puzzles is when the player can't solve a problem that by rights their character would figure out at a glance.

Keep in mind, the opposite problem is that you have designers with an intelligence maybe equivalent to an Int of 16 in game often designing puzzles that were supposedly created by ancient elves with Ints of 24 or dragons with Ints of 34: what you, as the player, are seeing as the puzzle is a pale imitation of what your character is seeing.

[GungHo]

I abstract a lot of this stuff because of the reasons mentioned within this thread. It's one of the few times where we fall back on "roll playing" rather than "role playing" because we'd otherwise stop testing what the characters know as opposed to what the players know. We don't make the electrical engineer perform feats of strength when we get to the "move rocks" areas, either.

[CharonsHelper]

I agree with others that puzzles can work, but they should be mixed with other gameplay.

Ex: Have clues scattered throughout the dungeon. With all of the clues it's freakin' easy, but if you're clever you can get the answer without a couple of the clues, figuring it out faster & with less risk.

[Firechanter]

He is honestly complaining that a _Bard_ knows his silly kindergarten puzzles?
That's like complaining that you oneshot his monsters when you're a level 10 Fighter and all he keeps sending are goblins.

Puzzles are terrible anyway, for reasons GreatWyrmGold and others have described.
The simplest advice I can give you: stop blurting out the answer before he's even finished. Wait well into the countdown timer. Answer at 007 or whatever.

[Scripten]

Definitely seconding the idea for puzzles done in the style of video games. "Take McGuffin from A, B, and C and place on either X, Y, or Z based on the following rules, formatted in slight obscurity" often works well with any sort of dungeon. If you build your dungeon in a non-linear fashion, you give the players plenty of room/motivation to explore as well as progression-based loot. And if your puzzle is themed to fit in with the dungeon, all the better!

[Kami2awa]

Have you considered puzzles of different kinds? How are you at breaking codes? Anagrams? Cryptic crossword clues? Logic puzzles?

I'm really bad at riddles if I've not heard them before, but can certainly solve other kinds of puzzles.

Also, if you are the party puzzle solver, the onus is on the GM to give the rest of the party something to do. A combat that takes place while trying to solve the puzzle (e.g. to open the way out) makes things a lot more interesting for everyone else.

[Rerem115]

Much like the previous reply, have the puzzle have an extra tie to what is going on in game. For example, in my current campaign, the party needed info from a sphinx. Now, instead of being a on-and-done kind of deal, it was a multi stage process.

First step--The classic riddle; how hard or easy it is depended almost entirely on player skill. The bard managed to solve it both in and out of character.

Second step--Different puzzle, more of a spatial logic puzzle than anything else. It challenged a different aspect of riddles for players; the wordsmith that conquered the first had more trouble here.

Third step--Succeeding on a series of high-DC skill checks (our DM was mean and made all 12 of them unskilled DC 20 Int checks ) to actually implement the solution we found, while holding off waves of enemies.

The end result was that it was difficult both in character and out to solve the problems, and the race against the clock for the third step was one of the most fun parts of the campaign to date.

[Nettlekid]

Has no one in this thread yet asked what the riddles/puzzles in questions were? That might help us decide if they're stupidly easy and the DM should up the game or if they're fairly difficult and you should be proud of yourself for knowing the answers.

[The Fury]

You do what you'd do in any other party game where it's obvious you're a better guesser than the rest: you shut up long enough to see if anyone else have a clue, and if not, you then hint them that you might know the answer.

Ha! I've done this before. There have been a few times when I was playing a character who's been established as too stupid to reasonably know the answer to something, I felt that it was best to let just about everyone at the table have a crack at it first.

Also, a tip with riddles in particular-- A well-thought out riddle has only one satisfying answer. I've been asked riddles that have had more than one answer that satisfies the question, yet only one "correct" answer. These riddles are the most frustrating ones to solve.

[Sredni Vashtar]

Has no one in this thread yet asked what the riddles/puzzles in questions were? That might help us decide if they're stupidly easy and the DM should up the game or if they're fairly difficult and you should be proud of yourself for knowing the answers.

Danielqueue1 said it was the Sphinx's Riddle, so: What has four legs in the morning, two legs during the day, and three legs in the evening? (Or something similar.) The answer is man, who crawls as a baby, walks upright as an adult, and needs a cane as an old man.

(Personally, I always mistakenly think that the Sphinx's Riddle is the "No legs lays on one leg, two legs sits on three legs, four legs gets the bones" one.)

[Slipperychicken]

I agree, a dungeon is where you keep your prisoners not your puzzles

Well, how else is a lich supposed to conceal all the embarrassingly cliche puzzles that he comes up with over the centuries?