Retiering the Classes: Evangelist, Favored Soul, Healer, Mystic, Spont. Cleric

[eggynack]

I was assuming that we were optimizing under the constraint of Beguiler 20 which forbids these kinds of things.

This is accurate, for the record. We were considering a bit of prestige classing and multiclassing before, but even then a full on ten levels would apply basically just zero upward force on the tier.

[Grim Reader]

A Beguiler really is pretty good within it's domain. A high level high optimization Sorcerer probably dominates a high level high optimization Beguiler at the Beguiler's thing, but below level 10 or so, I'd expect a Beguiler is better at the Beguiler thing. And with more reasonable levels of optimization that may extend indefinitely.

I don't think that's true. The place I see the Sorcerer beating the Beguiler is mid-OP, where people are good enough that the Sorcerer might have potent spells like polymorph but not so good that the Beguiler is just grabbing every spell he wants like a kid in a candystore.

I don't think it is so much a matter of optimization. Except inasmuch as the Sorcerer has a very low floor. Level is more important in this case, I think. I did a thread where I estimated how much of a Sorcerers resources it would take to cover the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmages domains. (And the thread seems to have gone walkabout while I was focused on work)

Anyway, I found that at low levels, it would take many times what the Sorcerers got, 3-400 % from memory. But at high levels you can do it with resources to spare.

That's not a indication of power versus power, focusing on covering other classes areas is not a good strategy.

[Anthrowhale]

A Beguiler 20 has a straightforward infinite Solar army by Gate, Ice Assassin's out the butt, and whatever your 50 Pit Fiends at level 15 beat up and brought home to you to be charmed and diplomacied.

Using class features of the Sorcerer to argue that the Beguiler is better seems counterproductive. At a minimum it costs more to get these things.

I took a look at the cleric spell list last night just to get an idea how powerful it is. It's definitely scary. Here's a proto build

"The Left Hand of Mystra"
Silverbrow Human LE Favored Soul 20
Wisdom maximized, other stats as desired.

Feats:
Human: Selective Spell
1. Extend Spell
3. Initiate of Mystra
6. Ocular Spell
9. Persistent Spell
12. Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
15. Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
18. Sudden Maximize

Spells (not all chosen, not deeply optimized):
1. Cause Fear: Fear 1d4 rounds Will Shaken -> Conviction: Morale+5 to ally saves for 10 minutes/level
1. Ice Slick: 20' square fall balance check for half move
1. Sanctuary: Will or can't attack.
1. Shield of Faith: Deflect+5 for minute/level
1. Sign: Init+4 in next combat 10 minute/level
2. Bewildering Substitution: Appear to swap enemy&ally for round/level Will Neg
2. Soundburst: AoE Stun Fort Neg
2. Close Wounds: Party gets 7 virtual hp as immediate action
2. Divine Insight: Any Skill+15(insight)
2. Silence: No save spellcaster problems.
3. Magic Vestment: Party has good weapons & armor
3. Alter Fortune: Reroll a save
3. Nauseating Breath: AoE Nauseate 3.5 rounds Fort neg
3. Flesh Ripper: 10d8 ranged touch (20d8+wound on critical hit)
3. Magic Circle
4. Sacred Spell: 10d4 discharge on outsiders&undead
4. Fang Trap: uncapped d4 trap
4. Consumptive Field: caster level bonus
4. Remove Fatigue: Party doesn't sleep
4. Summon Monster IV.
5. Greater Command: level creatures for level rounds
5. Spell Resistance: SR lots with Consumptive Field for Minute/level
5. Surge of Fortune: Natural 20 at will
6. Antilife Shell: Life can't approach.
6. Heal: Combat healing
6. Sarcophagus of Stone: Reflex or trap
6. Rejection: Uncapped d6 AoE Fort Neg
6. Energy Immunity: Party immune to Chosen Flavor
6. Superior Resistance: Party Resist+6
7. Dictum: Nonlawful die
7. Fortunate Fate: Party has +150hp.
7. Blasphemy: Nonevil die
7. Greater Plane Shift: Planar teleport
7. Planar Bubble.
7. Greater Harm: 40d12 Ocular attack
8. Spread of Contentment: No save Indifferent for hour/level in huge AoE. Selective[You] Spread of Contentment means hours of slaughter.
8. Stormrage: Immune ranged, wind, fly, 10d6 lightning attack 1/round.
8. Antimagic Field: I have magic. You do not.
8. Summon Monster VIII
9. Erupt: 500 Fire Fort/2 in a 1 mile radius.
9. Mass Heal: Party reset
9. Miracle: Omnispell
9. Sublime Revelry: double party hp for minute/level, immune mind-affecting
9. Gate: 50HD monsters are fun.

Scrolls: Revenance, Revivify (for blue-on-blue Consumptive Field or other applications), True Resurrection when you really need it.

Tricks:
1. Divine caster level is easily elevated via Ankh of Ascension, Prayer Bead, and Consumptive Field. It is ultra deadly via Dictum/Blasphemy.
2. Persistent Spell can be reduced by 2 levels via Practical Metamagic + Easy Metamagic.
3. Saves+5(Morale)+Saves+6(Resist), potentially for the whole party all day long. (+your own good saves)
4. Clerics have some _nasty_ single target damage spells. Combine with Ocular spell and Surge of Fortune for autodeath.
5. Sacred Item and Fang Trap are no material permanent duration deadly spells. Fang Trap does uncapped d4 damage.
6. Erupt + Energy Immunity = all bad guys vulnerable to fire are dead.
7. FS qualifies for Initiate of Mystra and can use it effectively via Persistent Consumptive Field.
8. AC+15 for the party.
9. Any skill+15.

Overall, I'm sticking with my T2 estimate. This is well beyond what you can get using only Warmage or Bard Features.

[Beheld]

Using class features of the Sorcerer to argue that the Beguiler is better seems counterproductive. At a minimum it costs more to get these things.

All of those are class features of the beguiler. Gate, Ice Assassin, Planar Binding, Dominate/Charm/Diplomacy are all class features of the Beguiler class.

Wisdom maximized, other stats as desired.

"To cast a spell, a favored soul must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). . . In addition, she receives bonus spells for a high Charisma."

So right off the bat you are giving up your highest level spells per day, and can't cast any spells at all because I desire a Charisma of 8. Be honest about your stat requirements, you have to invest in Charisma too.

Feats:
Human: Selective Spell
1. Extend Spell
3. Initiate of Mystra
6. Ocular Spell
9. Persistent Spell
12. Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
15. Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
18. Sudden Maximize

................

Spells (not all chosen, not deeply optimized):
1. Cause Fear: Fear 1d4 rounds Will Shaken -> Conviction: Morale+5 to ally saves for 10 minutes/level
1. Ice Slick: 20' square fall balance check for half move
1. Sanctuary: Will or can't attack.
1. Shield of Faith: Deflect+5 for minute/level
1. Sign: Init+4 in next combat 10 minute/level

So at level 1 you have Cause Fear as compared to Color Spray and Slightly Different Grease, And some minor buffs you won't use until later levels.

That... is a highly optimized book dive Favored Soul list. Its... roughly comparable to a Warmage and much much much worse than a Sorcerer.

2. Bewildering Substitution: Appear to swap enemy&ally for round/level Will Neg
2. Soundburst: AoE Stun Fort Neg
2. Close Wounds: Party gets 7 virtual hp as immediate action
2. Divine Insight: Any Skill+15(insight)
2. Silence: No save spellcaster problems.

I guess Soundburst would be the only thing here that constitutes a useful attack spell. I feel compelled to point out that a Warmage or Sorcerer at this level could be casting Glitterdust which is much better, but one round stuns, Fort negates is at least comparable to what a regular warmage with weapon focus for all his feats would be doing.

3. Magic Vestment: Party has good weapons & armor
3. Alter Fortune: Reroll a save
3. Nauseating Breath: AoE Nauseate 3.5 rounds Fort neg
3. Flesh Ripper: 10d8 ranged touch (20d8+wound on critical hit)
3. Magic Circle

Nauseating Breath is allegedly (I haven't looked it up) approximately as good as Stinking Cloud. Flesh Ripper is literally just an orb spell but without a status condition. Magic Vestment is at least plausibly a buff you would cast multiple times. So... about as good as a Warmage.

4. Sacred Spell: 10d4 discharge on outsiders&undead
4. Fang Trap: uncapped d4 trap
4. Consumptive Field: caster level bonus
4. Remove Fatigue: Party doesn't sleep
4. Summon Monster IV.

This is the part where you try to use Consumptive Field to break Caster level, but of course, you can't actually persist it. So you are basically just a guy who set all his 4th level slots of fire to hypothetically be better than a Warmage at some future point, but be much worse than a Warmage right now.

5. Greater Command: level creatures for level rounds
5. Spell Resistance: SR lots with Consumptive Field for Minute/level
5. Surge of Fortune: Natural 20 at will

Greater Command is your only combat spell. SR is a buff you might want to cast a lot. I'd say that you are slightly worse than a Warmage that took Weapon Focus for all his feats.

6. Antilife Shell: Life can't approach.
6. Heal: Combat healing
6. Sarcophagus of Stone: Reflex or trap
6. Rejection: Uncapped d6 AoE Fort Neg
6. Energy Immunity: Party immune to Chosen Flavor
6. Superior Resistance: Party Resist+6

Now you have some buffs that the party really appreciates, and Heal. That's not terrible. I'm not sure it's better than Acid Fog, but it's at least as good.

Sarcophagus of stone is a ref negates or be inconvenienced for one round that might conceivably defeat some enemies somewhere, but I can't think of who they would be.

7. Dictum: Nonlawful die
7. Fortunate Fate: Party has +150hp.
7. Blasphemy: Nonevil die
7. Greater Plane Shift: Planar teleport
7. Planar Bubble.
7. Greater Harm: 40d12 Ocular attack

Now we are fully in "I will have CL cheese" land, even though you won't, because you still can't Persist Consumptive Field. Nothing really worth even having here.

Tricks:
1. Divine caster level is easily elevated via Ankh of Ascension, Prayer Bead, and Consumptive Field. It is ultra deadly via Dictum/Blasphemy.
2. Persistent Spell can be reduced by 2 levels via Practical Metamagic + Easy Metamagic.
3. Saves+5(Morale)+Saves+6(Resist), potentially for the whole party all day long. (+your own good saves)
4. Clerics have some _nasty_ single target damage spells. Combine with Ocular spell and Surge of Fortune for autodeath.
5. Sacred Item and Fang Trap are no material permanent duration deadly spells. Fang Trap does uncapped d4 damage.
6. Erupt + Energy Immunity = all bad guys vulnerable to fire are dead.
7. FS qualifies for Initiate of Mystra and can use it effectively via Persistent Consumptive Field.
8. AC+15 for the party.
9. Any skill+15.

Overall, I'm sticking with my T2 estimate. This is well beyond what you can get using only Warmage or Bard Features.

Caster level shenanigans are not a Favored Soul specific trick, literally any class in the game can just have a Caster level of NI whenever they want.

Also for some reason, you choose to do this in a way where you can't persist Comsumptive Field at all until level 16.

Using a collection of TO tricks to get a result less impressive than just casting broken calling spells is really not on my list of impressive calls to how great a class is, doing so in a way that makes you basically just as good as a Warmage that takes weapon focus for all his feats for the first 15 levels, even less so.

[eggynack]

Nauseating Breath is allegedly (I haven't looked it up) approximately as good as Stinking Cloud. Flesh Ripper is literally just an orb spell but without a status condition. Magic Vestment is at least plausibly a buff you would cast multiple times. So... about as good as a Warmage.

I really don't understand how you went from that premise to that conclusion. The warmage's primary contributions from third level spells are twofold. They have BFC effects, mostly stinking cloud, and blasting, in a few reasonable varieties (and note that actual orb is a spell level away). These two favored soul spells get really close to that set of effects. Not perfectly, but quite well. And then you get three other spells that do three other things. That's a lot better, because those three other spells are quite good. The favored soul is killing enemies while also being well defended and helping the party. The warmage is basically just doing the first.

Now you have some buffs that the party really appreciates, and Heal. That's not terrible. I'm not sure it's better than Acid Fog, but it's at least as good.

This is the other main issue with the warmage. Acid fog is great. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. But it's less great when you already have a bunch of other good BFC spells. You're not getting a shiny new effect here. You're getting yet another black tentacles or cloud kill. Is it good in some different scenarios? Sure, but we can't ignore that there's a lot of overlap here. I noted above that the warmage was doing two things to the favored soul's three to five. The issue is that at higher levels the warmage is still doing basically two things, while the favored soul is actually adding niches and effects at various levels. There's some overlap, but not nearly so much, and the result is a continuously compounding advantage over the warmage.

[Beheld]

I really don't understand how you went from that premise to that conclusion. The warmage's primary contributions from third level spells are twofold. They have BFC effects, mostly stinking cloud, and blasting, in a few reasonable varieties (and note that actual orb is a spell level away). These two favored soul spells get really close to that set of effects. Not perfectly, but quite well. And then you get three other spells that do three other things. That's a lot better, because those three other spells are quite good. The favored soul is killing enemies while also being well defended and helping the party. The warmage is basically just doing the first.

At levels 6 and 7 it has 3 spells known. Those spells are Nauseating Breath (because that's the one that is actually good), Flesh Ripper, and Magic Vestment. That's it. The Favored Soul brings fewer Nauseating Breaths than the Warmage does Stinking Clouds, and the Warmage can exchange stinking clouds blast people too, and the limited spells per day Favored Soul can FleshRipper them for mediocre damage at the cost of future Nauseating Breaths.

Orb spells without status effects are not that impressive, hell, for the sake of argument, the Warmage's Scorching Ray does 8d6+Int damage at CL 7 and that's a second level slot. I'm just not impressed with dumpster diving in 3.0 books to be a slightly worse Warmage.

Those "three other things" the Favored Soul can do it a) Can't do at these levels, and b) aren't very good, c) are apparently only two things based on this list.

Being able to cast Magic Circles is worth about 1/9th of a feat to a Warmage, and that same feats gives Planar Binding. It's not worthless, but it's also not something the Favored Soul can even do at level 6-7.

This is the other main issue with the warmage. Acid fog is great. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. But it's less great when you already have a bunch of other good BFC spells. You're not getting a shiny new effect here. You're getting yet another black tentacles or cloud kill. Is it good in some different scenarios? Sure, but we can't ignore that there's a lot of overlap here. I noted above that the warmage was doing two things to the favored soul's three to five. The issue is that at higher levels the warmage is still doing basically two things, while the favored soul is actually adding niches and effects at various levels. There's some overlap, but not nearly so much, and the result is a continuously compounding advantage over the warmage.

That's basically a lie. This Favored Soul is still doing the same thing. Lighting all your spell slots on fire to give Magic Vestment to the party and then standing around while everyone else does all the fighting is not a different thing than lighting all your spell slots on fire to give Superior Resistance and Magic Vestment to the Party and then standing around while everyone else does all the fighting. Those are basically the same thing.

[lord_khaine]

A little late to the discussion, but noticed a few things i felt should be commented on.

3) 2200gp is how much a Runestave that casts Animate Dead and Desecrate once per day costs. Buying that and handing it to a Warmage or Beguiler or Sorcerer is like 100% of the benefit of a Favored soul in 2200gp, since the Favored Soul is a dumpster on fire outside of Animate Dead compared to any of those classes.

No its not, there isnt any Runestave that casts Animate Dead and Desecrate.
So something that requires DM permission like custom magic items are really not relevant for tiering something in a neutral setting. It would be the same as using a reasearched spell that combined those two effects for tier evaluation.

The party does need to have access to recovery spells somehow, sure; the Favored Soul isn't very good at it. I don't think we judge the Bard or Paladin too harshly for being bad healers, so it seems disingenuous to blame the Favored Soul for not being able to master every role simultaneously.

Yeah, getting though especially level 1-4 without healing spells can be a real chore. I thing having access to those spells are a boon, especially when you cant really afford other sorts of healing.

lesser planar ally is probably about as good as the Beguiler's suite on raw stats, but it costs XP per use. divination is solid utility. wrack is a single target save or lose that comes at the same level as charm monster and looks terrible by comparison. hand of the faithful is basically a BFC spell that can't trap people, and it seems pretty weak.

Yeah, i also think Charm Monster looks terrible in comparison. I mean all it does is to end the combat, or at least put it on pause while the charm lasts.

[Beheld]

No its not, there isnt any Runestave that casts Animate Dead and Desecrate.
So something that requires DM permission like custom magic items are really not relevant for tiering something in a neutral setting. It would be the same as using a reasearched spell that combined those two effects for tier evaluation.

HAHAHA, but in fact, Favored Souls don't exist at all, so they are Tier (N/A).

I mean, if blatantly lying is the new stock in trade for Tier arguments, this is going to get old fast.

Making a scroll of Superior Resistance is not exactly like writing an entirely new spell.

Yeah, i also think Charm Monster looks terrible in comparison. I mean all it does is to end the combat, or at least put it on pause while the charm lasts.

"Planar Ally is great because and super powerful and high class because it gets you a temporary minion for a few days. But Charm Monster is terrible, because all it does is give you a permanent friend, and those suck." Sure thing.

[eggynack]

Orb spells without status effects are not that impressive, hell, for the sake of argument, the Warmage's Scorching Ray does 8d6+Int damage at CL 7 and that's a second level slot. I'm just not impressed with dumpster diving in 3.0 books to be a slightly worse Warmage.

I mean, if you can be a slightly worse warmage and still be a bunch of other things, that strikes me as impressive relative to said warmage.

Those "three other things" the Favored Soul can do it a) Can't do at these levels, and b) aren't very good, c) are apparently only two things based on this list.

Alter fortune isn't the best at lower levels, but it still has a bunch of utility. When it works, it's the difference between life and death, and that's a significantly higher XP cost. Magic circle and vestment seem somewhat distinct to me, meanwhile.

Being able to cast Magic Circles is worth about 1/9th of a feat to a Warmage, and that same feats gives Planar Binding. It's not worthless, but it's also not something the Favored Soul can even do at level 6-7.

If you spent your feat on that, sure. Favored souls can spend feats too though, and magic circle is a surprisingly low optimization portion of this seemingly higher end focused build. Meaning, I could just kinda have the soul pick up breath, circle, and some solid third thing, and we're in a three book environment that isn't ideal for these spells known adding situations. Third thing could even be animate dead, and we're still in core+SpC.

That's basically a lie. This Favored Soul is still doing the same thing. Lighting all your spell slots on fire to give Magic Vestment to the party and then standing around while everyone else does all the fighting is not a different thing than lighting all your spell slots on fire to give Superior Resistance and Magic Vestment to the Party and then standing around while everyone else does all the fighting. Those are basically the same thing.

The build has things besides buffs. It's not my favorite setup though. Honestly, I feel like the mostly core setup I was proposing could be a better argument for the relatively variety filled favored soul, and that the Giles build is a better argument for an even more variety filled high op cross-book cleric. That build did a ton of stuff.

[Beheld]

I mean, if you can be a slightly worse warmage and still be a bunch of other things, that strikes me as impressive relative to said warmage.

Except that just like every other time you've said this, you are wrong, because this is a super optimized Favored Soul, and it's literally worse than a Warmage because it has fewers spells per day and requires 3rd level slots to blast as well as level 2 Warmage slots, and it can't do anything at all that the Warmage can't do.

If you spent your feat on that, sure. Favored souls can spend feats too though, and magic circle is a surprisingly low optimization portion of this seemingly higher end focused build. Meaning, I could just kinda have the soul pick up breath, circle, and some solid third thing, and we're in a three book environment that isn't ideal for these spells known adding situations.

1) Favored Souls can spend feats and get significantly less out of them, for example, this builds somehow manages to spend an entire 20 levels worth of feats and get one dumb TO trick that comes online at level 16 out of it.

2) Yes, if you have Breath, Circle, and "some solid third thing" then you are basically just much worse than a Warmage. This is your Tier 2 masterpiece. A Much much worse warmage with fewer spells per day trying really hard to manage to compete with a Warmage.

The build has things besides buffs. It's not my favorite setup though. Honestly, I feel like the mostly core setup I was proposing could be a better argument for the relatively variety filled favored soul, and that the Giles build is a better argument for an even more variety filled high op cross-book cleric. That build did a ton of stuff.

If you are going to cite to a non-existent build for literally 100% of your arguments can you just link it one time.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'll talk about Clerics and Cleric-alikes generally, then get to the ratings, since the differences between each class are apparent.

As far as primary casters go, the Cleric class probably has the highest floor, only second to the Druid. The Cleric list, however, has a pretty low floor. Many of the spells are reactive. That said, it's one of the Big 3 lists, and it gets a ton of splat support, not to mention a lot of highly powerful spells right in core for those with some system mastery.

I see Cleric-alikes as being in one of three places: heal bots with the occasional miracle in the hands of the fourth player invited to join the group; DMM builds, because everyone knows about DMM; and optimised builds that utilise the Cleric list and class-based boons rather than Druid or Wizard. I think 95% of Clerics land somewhere between the first two categories.

Turning
There are at least 44 feats that utilise Turn Undead, more than 15 PrCs (Haven't finished analysing those yet, so I don't have a final tally), and a decent handful of items. Not to mention that DMM can apply to many MM feats, not just Quicken, Extend, or Persist. I think that Turn Undead alone offers enough power and flexibility to take a class to T4 or T3 by itself with enough optimisation, much the same way as Wild Shape can.

Domains
Here's another place where Clerics gain a whole lot of heft. There's probably somewhere around 200-300 different domains (too lazy to cut duplicates from my spreadsheet to count right now), with a huge range of different ways to customise the class. For just about any niche you can think of, a domain exists to support your specialisation. And, domains aren't just useful for the spells. There's all sorts of great granted powers, such as Pride, Magic, Travel, Trickery... And of course there's the omnipresent Spell domain, with the incredible Anyspell. Will low-op players pick this domain? No, but anyone who didn't take Undeath+Planning will certainly have it in their mind.

Aura
Okay, this is one facet of the Cleric that's difficult to optimise. The only use I've found for it is to prevent folks from using Detect Magic on you, but maybe there's more here.

Spontaneous Cure/ Inflict
I'm actually glad that Clerics have this ability. Some folks expect Clerics to be heal-bots, and this is a nice, low-investment method of fulfilling that expectation both without items and without wasting daily slots on heals. Should Clerics be heal-bots? No, they're a primary caster. They should be solving the problems that brute force or judicious use of skills can't solve.

Spells
The Cleric list is a great list. It has a lot of power-building spells, tons of incredible niche solutions, and a generous helping of versatile options. Clerics, with enough books and levels, get access to every effect. Some things they get sooner and in more abundance than Wizards and Druids, and others later and sparser. Is it "worse" than the Wizard or Druid lists? I couldn't really say -- depending on what metric you use to compare them, they all have their strengths.

Evangelist: T2 This class explicitly counts as a Cleric for other game rules, and that's important. It opens up ACFs, and allows it to benefit from poorly-worded feats, PrCs, and the like. It can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells. Though it's spontaneous, it gets just about double the spells known as the Sorc does. That's a lot of spells. Is it flat-out better than Sorc, purely based on having more spells? Of course not. But, in a low-op environment, it's a big advantage. More spells means the odds of picking good spells are higher.

Favored Soul: T2.5 The split casting gets a lot of hate, and that's understandable. What really breaks my heart about this class is that if only it had turning, then the split casting wouldn't feel so terrible. Clerics already focus on Wis+1, but the FS is forced into a control-based build if they want to be most efficient with their resources. And of course most control builds don't really benefit all that much from the versatility of a spontaneous caster. This class is an exercise in nonbos at every turn. The Cleric list is best under the Wizard/ Cleric paradigm of prepping different lists on different days; FS doesn't get that. The Cleric list is primarily offensively suited for gishes; FS is a MAD gish. The Cleric list is primarily defensively suited for buffing the whole party with long-duration buffs tailored to the monster du jour; the FS cannot tailor. The Cleric class is often supported through turning pre-reqs on feats, PrCs, and ACFs; the FS can't qualify. The Cleric gets a domain to emphasise their devotion and diversify their skills; the FS gets... energy resistance?, med armour, med BAB, d8 HD, MAD, and simple weapons to make them the ultimate frontliner?

Mystic: T2 A weaker version of the Evangelist. They do get one unique boon: like arcanists, their deity can't tell them that they're no longer casters. They also can gain access to the impeccable Alteration domain, or the Necromancy domain to emulate the spontaneous Cleric.

Spontaneous Cleric: T2 Like the Evangelist, this keeps all the benefits of being a Cleric -- it's called "Cleric", and has all the class features, plus more spells known than a sorc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Except that just like every other time you've said this, you are wrong, because this is a super optimized Favored Soul, and it's literally worse than a Warmage because it has fewers spells per day and requires 3rd level slots to blast as well as level 2 Warmage slots, and it can't do anything at all that the Warmage can't do.

Apart from the attempt at CL cheese (which I agree is not a worthwhile trick unless you're starting at high levels), that is by no means a super-optimized Favored Soul build. It's mostly just picking spells from a few books-- I think 95% are from the PHB, SpC, or PHB 2. It's not using crazy obscure spells or high-op feat combos, just some metamagic reduction. A comparable Warmage probably made good Advanced/Eclectic Learning picks, took an Arcane Discipline and grabbed a decent Runestaff.

If you are going to cite to a non-existent build for literally 100% of your arguments can you just link it one time.

Here.

[eggynack]

Except that just like every other time you've said this, you are wrong, because this is a super optimized Favored Soul, and it's literally worse than a Warmage because it has fewers spells per day and requires 3rd level slots to blast as well as level 2 Warmage slots, and it can't do anything at all that the Warmage can't do.

The warmage has to spend feats to match the favored soul in just about any area of favored soul competency, which means you're dependent on specific builds. And the build is optimized, but I'm not in love with the spell selection.

2) Yes, if you have Breath, Circle, and "some solid third thing" then you are basically just much worse than a Warmage. This is your Tier 2 masterpiece. A Much much worse warmage with fewer spells per day trying really hard to manage to compete with a Warmage.

Seems better to me. Breath more or less covers the BFC thing. Circle offers effective utility in a niche the warmage isn't covering. The third spell can represent a third thing. So, we're at like BFC+buff+minionmancy versus just BFC+blast. And, next level, the warmage is still BFC+blast, and the favored soul can still be reasonable at its niches and also good at other stuff.

If you are going to cite to a non-existent build for literally 100% of your arguments can you just link it one time.

Seriously? I told you where to find it. I dunno why you'd call it non-existent. Here you go. Coulda asked at any point if you couldn't find it. The spells known are unordered, so you have to make some assumptions about how the build plays out at earlier levels, but it's overall a pretty straightforward setup that's not dependent on build optimization outside of spell selection, and which seems to operate just fine at those early levels. The spells are mostly just intrinsically good.

[Grim Reader]

No its not, there isnt any Runestave that casts Animate Dead and Desecrate. So something that requires DM permission like custom magic items are really not relevant for tiering something in a neutral setting. It would be the same as using a reasearched spell that combined those two effects for tier evaluation.

It doesn't even matter. Runestaves are useless to Beguilers and Warmages, because you have to have the spell on your list. The description goes out of its way to make that clear. It also adds that spontaneous casters with nonfixed lists benefit the most from them, although wizards can use them too.

You'd think you would be able to UMD your way past that, but specific trumphs general.

Anyway, while I never finished the comparison, the resource cost went Beguiler-Dread Necromancer-Warmage. A very high-level Sorcerer could cover all the domains, although with some difficulty in the case of the Dread Necromancer, as some very useful spells just weren't on the Sorcerer list. Warmage was the easiest, requiring only a handfull of spells, and a feat. And some of the spells were even better than what the Warmage had. There is a reason the postal service does not recruit Warmages to deliver the mail.

[Beheld]

Apart from the attempt at CL cheese (which I agree is not a worthwhile trick unless you're starting at high levels), that is by no means a super-optimized Favored Soul build. It's mostly just picking spells from a few books-- I think 95% are from the PHB, SpC, or PHB 2. It's not using crazy obscure spells or high-op feat combos, just some metamagic reduction. A comparable Warmage probably made good Advanced/Eclectic Learning picks, took an Arcane Discipline and grabbed a decent Runestaff.

1) And PrCed to have 10 other domains by level 20. Or Arcane Thesis Blast for infinity damage, since apparently "just some metamagic reduction" is not big deal.

2) Also spells from Vile Darkness, Frostburn, and Complete Champion, and probably other sources if I went past level 3.

It doesn't even matter. Runestaves are useless to Beguilers and Warmages, because you have to have the spell on your list. The description goes out of its way to make that clear. It also adds that spontaneous casters with nonfixed lists benefit the most from them, although wizards can use them too.

You'd think you would be able to UMD your way past that, but specific trumphs general.

What specific do you imagine is preventing someone from emulating a level 1 Cleric/Wizard/Bard/Assassin/Trapsmith with a DC 21 UMD check and thus having spell X on their spell list?

The warmage has to spend feats to match the favored soul in just about any area of favored soul competency, which means you're dependent on specific builds. And the build is optimized, but I'm not in love with the spell selection.

No, the Warmage would need to spend one feat to cover 9 spells known of a Favored Soul. Which since the Favored Soul has to spend at least two and often infinity spells known to match a Warmage at a given level, doesn't look good.

Here's a sample, let's say you have a Human Warmage with Arcane Disciple (Undeath) and Arcane Disciple Travel, and Arcane Disciple uhhhh, I don't have my Fiendish Codex with me so Arcane Disciple (Law). Now in reality, he'd take feats that get him into a PrC that gives a domain, but whatever.

This warmage has Animate Dead, Desecrate, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle, and Fly, and all his warmage spells that aren't stinking cloud.

As compared to this Favored Soul that doesn't have Desecrate (presumably would fix that) and has Nauseating Breath, Animate Dead, and Magic Circle. And nothing else. That's... sad.

Seems better to me. Breath more or less covers the BFC thing. Circle offers effective utility in a niche the warmage isn't covering. The third spell can represent a third thing. So, we're at like BFC+buff+minionmancy versus just BFC+blast. And, next level, the warmage is still BFC+blast, and the favored soul can still be reasonable at its niches and also good at other stuff.

It seems better to you because you reject the concept of evaluating worth and instead rely on the theory that counting non combat applications is somehow worth something. So again, you have a character with fewer Nauseating Breaths than the Warmage has stinking clouds, and then the ability to trade some of those Nauseating Breaths for +1 bonus to AC that lasts 6 hours.

As compared to Fireball (7 other damage spells), Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm.

Now be honest, if someone actually offered you the chance to trade your Stinking Clouds per day for +1 AC, would you actually take it, and also, would you be willing to give up that list of spells there to get it. Because that's it, the Favored Soul has +1 AC spell that the Warmage doesn't, and the Warmage has everything else.

Seriously? I told you where to find it. I dunno why you'd call it non-existent.

Are you contractually obligated to lie once per post, is that why you slipped this in?

[eggynack]

1) And PrCed to have 10 other domains by level 20.

This is not a thing we're accounting for in this system, ever since the fighter thread.

No, the Warmage would need to spend one feat to cover 9 spells known of a Favored Soul. Which since the Favored Soul has to spend at least two and often infinity spells known to match a Warmage at a given level, doesn't look good.

Here's a sample, let's say you have a Human Warmage with Arcane Disciple (Undeath) and Arcane Disciple Travel, and Arcane Disciple uhhhh, I don't have my Fiendish Codex with me so Arcane Disciple (Law). Now in reality, he'd take feats that get him into a PrC that gives a domain, but whatever.

This warmage has Animate Dead, Desecrate, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle, and Fly, and all his warmage spells that aren't stinking cloud.

And, again, now we're talking about three separate feats. It's a really specific build we're talking about. If you can only be good if you take a specific feat, you're not particularly good.

It seems better to you because you reject the concept of evaluating worth and instead rely on the theory that counting non combat applications is somehow worth something.

It's not just an arbitrary theory. It's a fundamental and explicit assumption of the tier system. This one and the old one alike.

As compared to Fireball (7 other damage spells), Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm.

Now be honest, if someone actually offered you the chance to trade your Stinking Clouds per day for +1 AC, would you actually take it, and also, would you be willing to give up that list of spells there to get it. Because that's it, the Favored Soul has +1 AC spell that the Warmage doesn't, and the Warmage has everything else.

For just +1 AC? No. For a wide variety of spells added across a wide expanse of levels? Absolutely. You keep claiming that this spell or the other spell is literally all a favored soul gets. It's completely inaccurate.

Are you contractually obligated to lie once per post, is that why you slipped this in?

Which is a lie? That you called it non-existent? You absolutely did that. That I told you where to find it? Here's the post where I gave a location, specifically saying, "The Giles list that he's posted a few times (I think he even links to it in his sig)." If you're going to be arbitrarily insulting, at least be accurately so.

[Beheld]

And, again, now we're talking about three separate feats. It's a really specific build we're talking about. If you can only be good if you take a specific feat, you're not particularly good.

If by taking that specific feat you are better than the best possible Favored Soul optimized to the same extent, then regardless of how good you are, the Favored Soul is worse.

It's not just an arbitrary theory. It's a fundamental and explicit assumption of the tier system. This one and the old one alike.

Wait, you are seriously going on record claiming that Augury once a day is exactly the same as at will Divination? I mean, I know that's how you actually count things, but it's amazing you'd straight up admit that actual worth doesn't go into your calculations, just number of things you can claim to do.

For just +1 AC? No. For a wide variety of spells added across a wide expanse of levels? Absolutely. You keep claiming that this spell or the other spell is literally all a favored soul gets. It's completely inaccurate.

It is factually true that the Favored Soul you just presented gets fewer spells per day than the Warmage I presented, from a list which gives it literally only Magic Vestment as the only thing it can do that the Warmage can't.

It doesn't matter if some hypothetical other favored soul exists somewhere else exists that is worse than some other Warmage, it just matters that the Favored Soul you presented is worse than the Warmage.

That I told you where to find it? Here's the post where I gave a location, specifically saying, "The Giles list that he's posted a few times (I think he even links to it in his sig)." If you're going to be arbitrarily insulting, at least be accurately so.

Eggynack, a complete and total explanation of why everything you have ever said is wrong is in the location I am about to give you: "It's been posted a few times."

[Anthrowhale]

Gate, Ice Assassin, Planar Binding, Dominate/Charm/Diplomacy are all class features of the Beguiler class.

That's just false. Gate and Planar Binding are not on the Beguiler spell list. If you want to add them, you must expend feats or money.

So right off the bat you are giving up your highest level spells per day, and can't cast any spells at all because I desire a Charisma of 8. Be honest about your stat requirements, you have to invest in Charisma too.

Getting an adjusted charisma of 19 at high levels is easy.

Caster level shenanigans are not a Favored Soul specific trick, literally any class in the game can just have a Caster level of NI whenever they want.

This sounds like a claim that tiers are meaningless. I don't believe that and I don't believe you can get caster level 50 on Warmage 20 that easily.

Using a collection of TO tricks to get a result less impressive than just casting broken calling spells is really not on my list of impressive calls to how great a class is, doing so in a way that makes you basically just as good as a Warmage that takes weapon focus for all his feats for the first 15 levels, even less so.

I believe you are implicitly granting that the build is very strong at L16+. Correct? If so, just make an explicit Warmage build up to L15 and we can compare.

... this is a super optimized Favored Soul

No, this is just a first pass where I looked for the kinds of things that really use the cleric list.

it can't do anything at all that the Warmage can't do.

Citation needed. Present your uber Warmage build which can do everything here.

1) Favored Souls can spend feats and get significantly less out of them, for example, this builds somehow manages to spend an entire 20 levels worth of feats and get one dumb TO trick that comes online at level 16 out of it.

Apparently Ocular madness, Spread of Contentment, Erupt, and Initiate of Mystra are not TO. Good to know.

I'm just not impressed with dumpster diving in 3.0 books to be a slightly worse Warmage.

First, dumpster diving is an entirely fair advantage over fixed-list casters.

Second, provide your Warmage 20 with NI caster level that can do everything this FS can do.

[Anthrowhale]

than the Warmage I presented

Where did you present a Warmage?

[Telok]

Based off personal experience:

Spont. Cleric: 1.3
Because cleric is that good.

Favored Soul: 2.6
Lose heavy armor, wis SAD, turns, and domains.

Part of the reason for mu FS choice is that low levels, or limited books, or non-high op/cheese on table, hurt the class pretty hard. Any two cause it to struggle, all three make it a gimp cleric wannabe. A level 4 cleric facing opponents has plate, a shield, a d8 weapon, two domain powers, turns, and 7 different non-cantrip spells chosen for that day's events before wis bonus spells. A level 4 FS has a breastplate, a shield, a d8 weapon, 7 different non-cantrip spells that are locked in, and 9 spell casts per day before cha bonus slots. The extra spell per spell level per day isn't near enough to make up for the losses. When I've tried the difference is big enough that I can't justify playing a FS over a cleric.

[Zancloufer]

It seems better to you because you reject the concept of evaluating worth and instead rely on the theory that counting non combat applications is somehow worth something. So again, you have a character with fewer Nauseating Breaths than the Warmage has stinking clouds, and then the ability to trade some of those Nauseating Breaths for +1 bonus to AC that lasts 6 hours.

You know if you want to argue that FS spells suck (or having MORE OPTIONS = BAD) at least get the stats right when you critique spells. Magic Vestment is CL/4 AC so at minimum CL it is +2 AC. At CL 8 it's essentially +3 armour for 8 hours (the entire day).

Also where are you getting the "Warmage has more Stinking Clouds than the FS has Nauseating Breaths" thing? They BOTH have the same spells per day. Well except 9th level spells, the FS has one more of those per day than the Warmage at the end of the day.

[remetagross]

Beheld, do keep in mind that Arcane Disciple requires the Warmage to pump Wis, and as such diminishing its asset as a SAD caster. Besides, Warmages don't have UMD as a class skill, so using Runestaves implies more feats/money to pump UMD as well.

[eggynack]

If by taking that specific feat you are better than the best possible Favored Soul optimized to the same extent, then regardless of how good you are, the Favored Soul is worse.

I doubt you get close off of taking it once. Taking the same feat repeatedly could theoretically maybe get there, but at this point you're talking about an incredibly specific build. Beguilers are tier two, not just because of arcane disciple, but because the class is great without that feat, and the feat a decent increase to that. If the beguiler were utterly dependent on this one feat to even operate, then they very likely wouldn't be tier two. If they could be decent without it, and great with it, then the same thing would be the case.

Wait, you are seriously going on record claiming that Augury once a day is exactly the same as at will Divination? I mean, I know that's how you actually count things, but it's amazing you'd straight up admit that actual worth doesn't go into your calculations, just number of things you can claim to do.

No, I meant counting as in, "This counts for something," not strictly as, "Three is bigger than two." It's just that the warmage's two things aren't that much better than what the soul can do in the same area, and the soul gets way more than two things. Count has two meanings and such.

It is factually true that the Favored Soul you just presented gets fewer spells per day than the Warmage I presented, from a list which gives it literally only Magic Vestment as the only thing it can do that the Warmage can't.

It looks like the build opens with alter fortune as well, and the lower level spells offer additional utility.

It doesn't matter if some hypothetical other favored soul exists somewhere else exists that is worse than some other Warmage, it just matters that the Favored Soul you presented is worse than the Warmage.

Wasn't what I presented, for one thing. For another, if we're just in the context of this specific argument, sure, but in the larger context of FS tiering, other favored souls matter.

Eggynack, a complete and total explanation of why everything you have ever said is wrong is in the location I am about to give you: "It's been posted a few times."

I didn't say he's posted it in this thread. I can point you to multiple copies of that post he's made, if necessary. Seriously, I'm just going to stop interacting with you if you keep accusing me of lying on absolutely no basis. Jeez, I wasn't wrong, but even if I were, have you considered for a moment I could have just been that rather than trying to actively deceive you?

[Beheld]

You know if you want to argue that FS spells suck (or having MORE OPTIONS = BAD) at least get the stats right when you critique spells. Magic Vestment is CL/4 AC so at minimum CL it is +2 AC. At CL 8 it's essentially +3 armour for 8 hours (the entire day).

Also where are you getting the "Warmage has more Stinking Clouds than the FS has Nauseating Breaths" thing? They BOTH have the same spells per day. Well except 9th level spells, the FS has one more of those per day than the Warmage at the end of the day.

1) If you are going to contradict me, contradict me. 6/4 is 1. Or you know, "You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels" If you have 6 caster levels, you don't have 8 caster levels, so you have 4 caster levels, so you get +1.

2) Quick check, what stat do Favored Souls cast off of? If you answered "two and the one that the sample favored soul was dumping is charisma, the one that governs bonus spells" then you answered correctly. Having fewer spells is often times similar to having fewer spells.

That's just false. Gate and Planar Binding are not on the Beguiler spell list. If you want to add them, you must expend feats or money.

It is a class ability of the Beguiler to have access to things more easily than other classes. I mean, technically it's not a class ability of Wizards to have Gate either, they have to specifically choose to have it. But they can still choose to have it, and so can Beguilers.

Getting an adjusted charisma of 19 at high levels is easy.

Giving up bonus spells because your game plan is to start with Charisma 12 and buy an item to keep getting access to your highest spells and then use inherent bonuses from Wish to get to 19 at level 18 means you get no bonus 3rd level spells at level 6-7, when the warmage gets 1-2.

This sounds like a claim that tiers are meaningless. I don't believe that and I don't believe you can get caster level 50 on Warmage 20 that easily.

Literally any character that can cast spells:

Step 1: Candle of Invocation Gate Efferti.
Step 2: Wish for scroll of Greater Consumptive Field with caster level = 100000 years of time duration.
Step 3: Wish for a Contingent Spell of Shapechange contingently going off when you say the world "Monkey."
Step 4: Wish for something for the Efferti because whatever, you already finished replicating this dumb TO trick.
Step 5: Say "Monkey."
Step 6: Shapechange into a Lillitu which has an EX ability to auto activate items with UMD.
Step 7: Use your CL [really high] Greater Consumptive Field.
Step 8: Walk around aimlessly turning butterflies into more Caster level for the rest of eternity.

I believe you are implicitly granting that the build is very strong at L16+. Correct? If so, just make an explicit Warmage build up to L15 and we can compare.

I mean... probably not? It can't beat an infinite army of Pit Fiends, which is a thing a level 16 Warmage could be doing. It uses one TO trick, and is therefore absolutely not worth playing the game with, but pretty much nothing is at level 16.

Citation needed. Present your uber Warmage build which can do everything here.

Why? I mean, besides that a Warmage can spontaneously cast off all Cleric spells in the game, or can just pile on domains until their list is insane, the ability to replicate TO tricks is not an impressive or meaningful thing. Your particular build is so bad that it took you 16 levels to get to a TO trick, but that a Warmage can do any TO trick that breaks the game like casting Greater Planar Binding at all renders it unplayable, so while it probably could replicate your exact tricks, there is no reason to.

Apparently Ocular madness, Spread of Contentment, Erupt, and Initiate of Mystra are not TO. Good to know.

I'm not sure why your claim that you used multiple TO tricks is supposed to convince of the meaningfulness (also, Initiate of Mystra at high CL is the one trick).

First, dumpster diving is an entirely fair advantage over fixed-list casters.

No it isn't. The Warmage has the best dumpster diving chassis in the game. People just keep insisting that Warmages shouldn't be allowed to Dumpster Dive because then Favored Souls would feel bad.

Second, provide your Warmage 20 with NI caster level that can do everything this FS can do.

He picks Arcane Disciple (Any Domain With Gate) and has his infinite solar army do everything the favored soul can do for him. Uses above CL trick so his gates all have Caster level (60 goddam years of duration) too, because apparently having NI CL is somehow a condition that it's supposed to be hard to replicate.

[Beheld]

Beheld, do keep in mind that Arcane Disciple requires the Warmage to pump Wis, and as such diminishing its asset as a SAD caster. Besides, Warmages don't have UMD as a class skill, so using Runestaves implies more feats/money to pump UMD as well.

Indeed, and if you were playing a real Warmage in a real game, you probably wouldn't use it much, because you'd already have like 10 other domains, so why care. But for some reason, people who actually play D&D need to be dragged out in the street and shot so that they can't interfere with the perfect Ur-Favored Soul that knows all spells on the Cleric list (wholly **** eggynack actually said that, he actually said that because two different favored souls with two different spell sets are both worse than the two Warmages, that proves that the Favored Soul is better than the warmage, my brain hurts.)

[AnimeTheCat]

Sadly, as much as I enjoy the healer class's fluff and crunch, I don't even really think it's tier 3... I would say high 4. It can heal real goodly, and at level 1 it's will heal more on average than a cleric with a cure light wounds spell (assuming you have a charisma higher than 11). But it doesn't get spontaneous healing so you have to prepare individual cure spells, it doesn't get domains (some of which would really help it), and it's abilities are just nothing too special in high magical worlds.

I have played many a healer, but my DM granted spontaneous healing as well as the healing domain for free at first level. That made the healer really good, but that's not the class. I wouldn't want to play a healer without spontaneous cures, I could live without the domain though.

Similar story with the Favored Soul. I really really really really REALLY want to love the class, but they just aren't that great. No turn undead, no class features for the first two levels (that's really bad), and as good as the spells are, you're so limited on them. No one Favored Soul is going to be able to do everything. On top of it, they're slated as melee combatants (getting deities' favored weapon as weapon focus etc.) but get 3/4 BAB, and to top it all off they're still behind in spell progression similar to a sorcerer. On the flip side, they do get monk saves so... there's that I guess... I would seat it at tier 2, but whenever I play one I always rue the spells known with no way to get more.

as for the others, I have no opinion as I have never played them.

[Anthrowhale]

2) Quick check, what stat do Favored Souls cast off of? If you answered "two and the one that the sample favored soul was dumping is charisma, the one that governs bonus spells" then you answered correctly. Having fewer spells is often times similar to having fewer spells.

No claim of dumping was made. You are simply engaging in adversarial interpretation. Put in the time time to make your Warmage and I'll fill in other details for you.

It is a class ability of the Beguiler to have access to things more easily than other classes. I mean, technically it's not a class ability of Wizards to have Gate either, they have to specifically choose to have it. But they can still choose to have it, and so can Beguilers.

This is not the traditional understanding of class ability. If you want to modify a game term, you should be explicit about the definition.

Literally any character that can cast spells:

That was a waste of electrons. Do you have something more interesting?

Why?

Because it's the intellectually honest thing to do. If you think Warmage is hot stuff, then show it with a build. I reviewed the Warmage list and Arcane Disciple---I'm skeptical.

I mean, besides that a Warmage can spontaneously cast off all Cleric spells in the game, or can just pile on domains until their list is insane,

Eggynack clarified here that the thread is about staying in the same class to level 20. Maybe revise your claims around that or go start your own thread?

No it isn't. The Warmage has the best dumpster diving chassis in the game.

I don't believe that. Show me the build.

He picks Arcane Disciple (Any Domain With Gate) and has his infinite solar army do everything the favored soul can do for him. Uses above CL trick so his gates all have Caster level (60 goddam years of duration) too, because apparently having NI CL is somehow a condition that it's supposed to hard to replicate.

Warmage is not a divine caster so prayer beads and ankh of ascension are out. And I'm assuming you are still confused about whether or Rainbow Servant 10 is a Warmage.

[Beheld]

That was a waste of electrons. Do you have something more interesting?

Step 1: Propose challenge.
Step 2: Have challenge met.
Step 3: Remove challenge being met from quote.
Step 4: Say "that was a waste" fail to acknowledge challenge being met.

Warmage is not a divine caster so prayer beads and ankh of ascension are out. And I'm assuming you are still confused about whether or Rainbow Servant 10 is a Warmage.

......

I literally just demonstrated how the can have CL NI. Like, in the post are quoting. I mean, you removed it from the quote, because you are dishonest, but it was there.

[eggynack]

(wholly **** eggynack actually said that, he actually said that because two different favored souls with two different spell sets are both worse than the two Warmages, that proves that the Favored Soul is better than the warmage, my brain hurts.)

Where'sat now? If it's accurate to some weird reading of what I've said, it's certainly not accurate to my views on the topic. I just don't necessarily think this particular favored soul is necessarily the one I'd posit as particularly great. As you point out, a lot of its tricks take awhile to come online, and there're a lot of great spells its not using along with some maybe not as great spells it is using.

Edit:

Sadly, as much as I enjoy the healer class's fluff and crunch, I don't even really think it's tier 3... I would say high 4. It can heal real goodly, and at level 1 it's will heal more on average than a cleric with a cure light wounds spell (assuming you have a charisma higher than 11). But it doesn't get spontaneous healing so you have to prepare individual cure spells, it doesn't get domains (some of which would really help it), and it's abilities are just nothing too special in high magical worlds.

I have played many a healer, but my DM granted spontaneous healing as well as the healing domain for free at first level. That made the healer really good, but that's not the class. I wouldn't want to play a healer without spontaneous cures, I could live without the domain though.

Have you looked at the sanctified spell list, primarily in BoED but also in CoV? It's one of the best things the healer has access to.

[remetagross]

Indeed, and if you were playing a real Warmage in a real game, you probably wouldn't use it much, because you'd already have like 10 other domains, so why care. But for some reason, people who actually play D&D need to be dragged out in the street and shot so that they can't interfere with the perfect Ur-Favored Soul that knows all spells on the Cleric list (wholly **** eggynack actually said that, he actually said that because two different favored souls with two different spell sets are both worse than the two Warmages, that proves that the Favored Soul is better than the warmage, my brain hurts.)

I am skeptical as to your ability to garner that many domains. Without any PrC (since this is one of the prerequisites of this tiering), with Elder Evil worshipping, Human race and two flaws, ok the Warmage will top at 15 domains. Now if we cut out the Elder Evils + DCFS and flaws, we get 8 domains. At, but in fact no, since Knowledge: Religion is cross-class for Warmages, you cannot take Arcane Disciple before level 5, so that means actually 6 domains.

And in fact, not even then. Since all domains must belong to the same deity (you cannot pick an ideal), you're likely to find out one somewhere in all the splatbooks that gets maybe 4 interesting domains, and then it's either crap or there aren't any domains left. So, 4 domains, at levels 6, 9, 12, 15.

I have never played a Warmage, so I trust you when you say this means a very significant improvement of the Warmage's ability. However, 4 domains is not 10.