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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Links


    The Purpose
    Based on my homebrew 3.5e work of the same name, 5e Mythos is intended to add a selection of classes to the game that allow players to begin their story at a relatively high level of power, and grow into capabilities that allow them to alter the course of the world without using standard D&D magic and spells. They are not meant to be the errand-folk of wizards and kings, cleaning the rats from cellars and the dire rats from tombs in exchange for a pouch of coins, a healing potion, and pat on the head. They should make goals for themselves, crush their opposition, and deal with the consequences of power.

    Below are some definitions (likely to be expanded) of some non-obvious terms potentially to be used in the fluff of Mythos Classes, as well as a set of rules that apply to all Mythos Classes. They are presented here to prevent the need to reproduce them for each class.

    So this thread is more useful than just a place for links and general rules, the first 5e Mythos Class is presented in the next post: The Swordbearer.

    Currently, I'm somewhat inexperienced with 5th Edition, and I'm not sure if there's much interest for this kind of thing. But I have more classes that are close to completion, and yet more in the conceptual stage if this should prove to be a fruitful avenue to explore in the realm of 5e.

    Definitions
    Anthol: A mortal whose existence has become entangled with a Myth. A Mythos Class is used to represent their transition from mortality to something greater. Along this path, they become less hinged upon reality and more invested with the immemorial power of plot, trope, and narrative. They hear the song of the universe, and when they move with its story, they are unconquerable.

    Myth: A living story given physical form. In the chaos before the world's birth, their conflicts gave rise to the gods and other things, and in time they each receded into enduring hibernation for their own reasons. Still potent in their slumber, their power flowing through the universe occasionally gives rise to Anthols.

    Mythos: The various powers possessed by a Myth that an Anthol inherits as they take levels in a Mythos Class. These powers, though fantastic in scope, are not magical in nature. While a human cannot lift a building without magic, it would be perfectly natural and mundane for a giant to do so, and an Anthol is becoming something so much more than any giant.

    Core Book Variant Rules Assumptions
    Mythos Classes assume that Feats (PHB pg165) are being used, as well as the Variant Human racial stats and Story-Based Advancement (DMG pg261). They also assume that Multiclassing rules are not in use. Additionally, the extra Downtime Activities presented in the Dungeon Master's Guide (pg128) may be important to some classes. The "Performing Sacred Rites" Downtime Activity should not be used because of the additional weight that Mythos Classes place on Inspiration.

    Mythos Classes are not meant to be played alongside mundane core classes, like the Fighter. The Swordbearer, for example, is simply intended to have a wider variety of interesting things they can do to impact the game's setting than the Fighter, which would be unfair to the Fighter's player. However, spellcasting classes have a strong selection of strange and potent effects that can shape the world and are not easily replicated by Mythos - things like Dominate Person, Teleport, Demiplane, Gate, Clone, and so on already eclipse a Fighter's greatest achievement of learning to hit a bugbear slightly harder.

    Therefore, a mid-to-high level spellcasters should theoretically be good peers for Anthols. This will be subject to experimentation and playtesting, but my current assumption is that an 11th level caster should adventure with 1st level characters possessing a Mythos Class.

    World-Shaping Demiurge Authority
    Abundant with the esoteric power of those who shaped the universe, Anthols can occasionally exert their authority over that domain and make subtle alterations to what mortals perceive as reality. The rules for each type of Anthol will list what aspects of the universe they have dominion over and, by spending one Inspiration, they may introduce a fact into the world that is now true.

    An introduced fact cannot be in stark opposition to something previously established about the setting. It makes the improbable true, or shapes that which is as yet unshaped. When in doubt, have the other players and GM vet the fact - if it unpleasantly disrupts their vision of the world, then perhaps one or more of them could offer a compromise - once the introduction of the fact is seen as good and reasonable, it exists.

    For example, the Swordbearer class has dominion over arms, armor, martial traditions, and all aspects of military life, organization, and action.

    Upon being disarmed and incarcerated, set for a timely execution, a Swordbearer might search his cell for something to be used as a weapon. When his check fails, he finds nothing. However, it is not yet factual that nothing is truly there, simply that this Swordbearer is not skilled enough to find anything. Here, there is ambiguity. The Swordbearer spends an Inspiration to introduce a fact that a previous prisoner hid a weapon here and that, by luck or providence, he does stumble upon its hiding place accidentally.

    The Swordbearer would obviously prefer that this hidden weapon be his favored armament - a greatsword - but his fellow players feel that this would be ludicrous. How would a prior prisoner hide an entire greatsword in a prison cell without it being discovered? No, they compromise that perhaps there is a well-crafted shiv wedged under a loose brick (well crafted enough to work mechanically as a dagger). Implausible, but possible! Not optimal, but better than nothing. When the guards return, the Swordbearer will be in a far better position to make his egress.

    In a different scenario, a Swordbearer and his party are being pursued from town to town by a coterie of vampires. Whenever the party rests, the vampires strike. When they search for lodgings, villagers turn them away for being vagabonds behind which ill things certainly follow.

    When the party next enters a town, the Swordbearer has had enough and spends Inspiration to introduce this fact: There is a fencing school here, where the children of noblemen, aspiring squires, and promising peasants who are each the greatest swordsman in their village, all come to learn the art of dueling for sport or for honor. The school has heard of the Swordbearer's exploits as a peerless warrior and will treat him and his party as honored guests.

    This qualifies under the heading of a martial tradition, and the players and GM all agree that this not only serves the means of the plot, but introduces an interesting flourish to the setting. The party is able to get a rest here, and has gained time to formulate a stratagem, for the vampires dare not risk a fight against the Swordbearer's party, backed up by the school's own masters.

    Plot-Twisting Excellence
    Anthols are able to, by default, bank up to three instances of Inspiration at a time. In addition to Inspiration's normal function of providing Advantage on a roll, an Anthol may spend Inspiration to activate World-Shaping Demiurge Authority (above), and for one other purpose. After an Anthol has made a roll, and after the roll has been determined as a success or failure, and after the Anthol has been told by how much they failed or succeeded, they may spend Inspiration to add +2 to the roll per point of Inspiration spent.

    Because Inspiration is perhaps more important for an Anthol that other kinds of characters, the player of an Anthol and the GM should work to be a little more explicit about Inspiration gains. When an Anthol's player declares a course of action, the GM may offer Inspiration regarding a different course that plays to that Anthol's Ideal, Bond, Flaw, general Background, or simply some personality trait the player has already established about their character. The player has final say over the actions of their character, and is therefore not penalized for disagreeing, but this means of doing things makes the acquisition of Inspiration less nebulous than the default "roleplay good" methodology.

    For example, maybe a player is very close to accidentally unraveling an entire adventure before it begins by shaking down the royal vizier and discovering his dastardly plot mere moments after play has begun. This is fine - that kind of plot destruction has been a part of D&D tradition for figurative centuries - but the GM would really rather it not happen if at all possible. He points out that the player has so far played their character as a loyal patriot; this is the vizier of his beloved country - shouldn't he be shown respect? The GM offers an Inspiration (or two?) if the player goes along with it and agrees to play up their loyalty and patriotism for a while.

    Perfected Protagonist Prana
    Anthols are designed such to begin play at a distinctly higher tier of power than a standard character, perhaps equivalent to mid-to-high levels while still at their own "Level 1". This, coupled with their destiny as potential movers and shakers of the world, they do not generate their Ability Scores by the standard methods.

    An Anthol begins play with this array of ability scores, arranged however their player wishes: 19, 16, 15, 14, 10, 8.

    Furthermore, as a unique and extraordinary example of their race, their player has the freedom to choose to which ability scores any positive racial ability score modifiers are placed. For example, a High Elf usually has a +2 bonus to their Dexterity and a +1 bonus to their Intelligence. As an Anthol, their player may choose to place this +2 and +1 into any ability score of their choice, though they may not place them both into the same score.

    For balancing purposes, Human Anthols therefore must be of the Variant variety presented on pg31 of the Player's Handbook.
    Last edited by Xefas; 2017-05-04 at 06:06 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    The Swordbearer

    The sword is a metaphor. An axe can hew trees and a hammer can hammer nails and a staff can make steady a path, but a sword is an instrument solely for the sublime act of violence. Regardless of what the Swordbearer carries, what he carries is a sword, for it is his story to divide heaven and earth on the edge of his sharpened will.

    To be a candidate for inheritance of the Iron Mythos, one must have some manner of initiation into martial skill. The moment of ignition is an act of extreme foolishness and utter disregard for reason. That which cuts the world is the opposite of thought.

    A wounded soldier charges a line of heavy infantry alone, and against fairness and propriety, he slaughters instead of being slaughtered, and emerges a Swordbearer.

    A town guard interposes himself between an adventurer and the magistrate he is sworn to protect, and when the adventurer's mystical blade descends, the guard is not cleft in twain, but rather casts the attack aside and relieves the murderous homeless man of his head.

    A bandit lord and his crew of murderers and scoundrels are sentenced to a lawful death by beheading. Bound at the wrists, the lord sees the first man under his charge slump dead and headless, and upends the entire executioner's platform with a single kick. With his teeth, he wrenches the guillotine blade from its housing and wields it by the rope against the surrounding militiamen.



    Class Features
    As a Swordbearer, you gain the following class features.

    Hit Points
    Hit Dice: 1d10 per Swordbearer level, +10d10
    Hit Points at First Level: 70 + [(your Constitution modifier) x 11)]
    Hit Points at Higher Levels: [6 + (your Constitution modifier)] per Swordbearer level after 1st

    Proficiencies
    Armor: All Armor, Shields
    Weapons: Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons
    Tools: One Artisan Tool, Gaming Set, or Musical Instrument of your choice

    Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence
    Skills: Athletics, plus any three of your choice

    Equipment
    You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background.

    • (a) a melee weapon of your choice or (b) 20 gold pieces
    • (a) a melee weapon of your choice, (b) a shield, or (c) a set of tools you are proficient in
    • (a) a set of armor of your choice and some ragged clothes, or (b) a set of travelers clothes and a set of fine clothes
    • (a) a ranged weapon of your choice with 20 units of ammunition, (b) a brace of five light thrown weapons, or (c) a healer's kit and a holy symbol of your choice
    • (a) an equipment pack of your choice




    Level Proficiency Bonus Features
    1st +4 Iron Resonance, Ever-Armed Weaponmaster Arete, Mountain and Gale Enlightenment, Wary Warrior's Eye, Wielding The Sword Of Will, Extra Attack
    2nd +4 Cutting With Sheathed Sword, Ability Score Improvement
    3rd +5 The Distant Promise of Bloodshed
    4th +5 Never Outnumbered
    5th +5 Efficiency of Motion
    6th +5 Extra Attack (II), Ability Score Improvement
    7th +6 Blades Turned Aside
    8th +6 Ultimate Technique
    9th +6 Ability Score Improvement
    10th +6 Legend Diversity, A Sword Equal To Heaven



    Saving Throws
    Unless otherwise noted, when one of a Swordbearer's abilities requires a saving throw, the DC is equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + (Strength or Dexterity; your choice) modifier.

    Iron Resonance
    At the end of a Long Rest, if you feel as if you have done one of the following since your last Long Rest, ask your fellows players and GM if they agree. If the majority do, gain one Inspiration. You may only gain one Inspiration in this way per Long Rest.

    • You defeated a worthy foe in single combat.
    • You offered strategic or tactical advice for a military action.
    • You helped a party member complete or progress a personal goal by using violence and they acknowledged and thanked you for it.
    • You explained to someone how fighting is metaphorically similar to a form of art that your practice.
    • You were defeated in battle.


    When using your World-Shaping Demiurge Authority, you have dominion over arms, armor, martial traditions, and all aspects of military life, organization, and action.

    Ever-Armed Weaponmaster Arete
    Once, there was a boy with a sword...

    • When you wield a weapon, if its base damage is 1d6, 1d4, 1d3, 1d2, or 1, you may roll 1d8 instead. This also applies to unarmed strikes.
    • When you roll for Initiative, instead of using a Dexterity check, you may roll an unmodified d20 and add your Proficiency Bonus.
    • You may use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the purposes of attack and damage rolls with any weapon or unarmed strike, as if they had the Finesse property. This does not actually give them the Finesse property.
    • While you are not wearing armor of any kind, you may calculate your Armor Class as [10 + your Dexterity modifier + (the higher of your Constitution or Intelligence modifier)]. You may still benefit from a shield. If you use Constitution, you are powering through attacks like a Barbarian; if you are using Intelligence, you are evading with supernal grace, similar to a Monk.


    Wary Warrior's Eye
    ...who saw that the world was not as it should be...

    As an action, you can attempt to size up a creature of greater than animal intelligence in order to learn something about its martial prowess. To your mortal senses, you are picking up on minor cues like a person's gait, the glint of past battles in their eyes, a bearing of competence surrounding their most innocuous actions or inactions. But the connection between you and the nature of war and warrior alike is deeper even than that.

    Make a proficient Intelligence check. If the creature isn't taking any steps to disguise its true prowess, then the only question is how well you succeed. The GM will tell you the creature's Challenge Rating and whether the creature's most dangerous asset in battle is its skill with weapons (including fists or natural weapons) or "something else". The GM doesn't need to, and probably shouldn't specify what that "something else" is. For every 3 points your check exceeded 10, the GM will also throw in one additional fact about the creature's martial skill or physical nature, such as information about a special ability it possesses, a class it has levels in, its Armor Class, its Attack Bonus for its main mode of attack, its rating in a particular ability score, and so on.

    If the creature you're sizing up was already making an attempt to alter its mannerisms in such a way as to obfuscate its nature, then your check is opposed by their Charisma (Deception) check. If your check fails, then the GM will give you information as if you had succeeded at an unopposed check (above), but some or all of the information relayed may be false in keeping with the disguise the target is attempting to maintain. If your check succeeds, then treat it as an unopposed check (above) except that you become aware that the target is being deceptive, and you only gain one fact per 3 points above the creature's own Charisma (Deception) check.

    Wielding The Sword Of Will
    ...so he sought the wicked and cut them apart.

    When you make a melee attack (or several attacks in a round) with a weapon (or unarmed strike) against an enemy, describe how you do so. It needn't be elaborate, though you must describe more than that you simply make an attack and roll dice. Perhaps you fling a flurry of feints and flourishes into your foe before flaying them with a furious fusillade of forays with your falchion. Or maybe you throw sand in their eyes and kick them in the shins. Whatever. Possibly you have a set of special techniques from a formal martial art (self-taught or otherwise), an array of distinct stances and strikes that outmaneuver your enemies - possibly they have flowery names. That's up to you.

    For each attack you give some manner of appropriate description, choose one of the following bonuses to add to the attack.

    • Your attack deals +5 damage if successful.
    • Your attack has +2 on the attack roll.
    • If the attack is successful, make another melee attack against a target you have not yet attacked this turn. You may not apply this option to the new attack.
    • If the attack is successful, you may move to any other space adjacent to your target. This movement does not provoke Opportunity Attacks.
    • If the attack is successful, the target must make a (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; your choice) saving throw or take Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you until the beginning of your next turn. During this time, you also have Advantage on saving throws that the target's abilities require you to roll.


    Mountain and Gale Enlightenment
    When the mountains stood in his way, he cut them, and when the winds blew against him, he cut them too...

    Choose one of the following two abilities to acquire.

    Enduring Mountain Physique

    • Your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for Strength and Constitution saving throws.
    • You have Advantage on all Strength and Constitution checks.
    • You recover from one level of Exhaustion per Short Rest, rather than Long Rest.


    Rushing Wind Agility

    • Your Speed increases by 10ft.
    • You have a high jump equal to your (higher of Strength or Dexterity) score, and can leap twice that with a long jump. There is no difference between a standing and running jump for you. You may still attempt Athletics checks to push yourself further.
    • If you are proficient in Acrobatics, you no longer need to make a check for things that a normal person could achieve with a successful check. There is no question that you can walk a tightrope, run on ice, or operate just fine on a rocking ship. However, you can now make checks to achieve the mildly superhuman, like balancing on a leaf instead of a rope, running up a vertical sheet of ice, or sprinting across the water lotuses spread over a river without falling through. The DC should be adjusted for this perspective; what is Hard Difficulty for a mortal is trivial to you, what is Easy Difficulty for you is beyond the impossible for a mortal.
    • If you have all limbs free, you can slow the descent of a fall to 60ft per round; slow enough for you to not take damage when you land. In addition, you have exceptional control while falling, and can glide yourself up to your Speed for each 60ft fallen.
    • If you have all limbs free, you can whirl yourself around in mid air as a Reaction, causing all downward motion to cease, and letting you hang dramatically in the air until the end of your next turn. You cannot use this ability again until you've spent a round on solid ground.




    Cutting With Sheathed Sword
    ...for his mission was righteous...

    Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

    Sagacity of Forge and Blade
    To take this ability, you must be proficient with Smith's Tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled when using such tools, and you multiply the amount of progress you make when crafting mundane arms and armor with these tools by (your Intelligence modifier, minimum 1). For example, a Swordbearer with an Intelligence of 16 would make 15gp of progress per day.

    Furthermore, despite not being a spellcaster, you may engage in crafting magical items (DMG pg128), but only for items that take the form of a weapon, shield, set of armor, or a subsection of a suit of armor (such as a helmet or gauntlets). You need not meet the level requirements for crafting a particular magic item, nor do you need to know the spells that it produces.

    However, when crafting a magic item that does produce a spell, the spell components must be provided as normal, and if a spellcaster is not present to provide the relevant spell slot each day as per a normal crafting, then you must work an exotic ingredient of the DM's choosing into the item to take the place of that magic. A low-level spell, like Burning Hands might only require something as easily acquired as the glowing glands of a Fire Beetle, while a substitution for Power Word: Kill could be an intact Lich's Phylactery.

    These conditions are in addition to whatever other strangeness a DM has decided their campaign requires of a would-be item crafter, such as the DMG's example of a Flame Tongue sword requiring that it be forged in a lavaflow.

    Wise Master's Regimen
    You have a gift for teaching. As part of a long rest, you may do some training exercises with up to (Intelligence modifier +1) other characters. These other characters must be willing to get up a little early, exercise, and follow your instructions for a brief period in order to benefit from this ability.

    If a character exercises with you at least five days out of seven, then they may have a flashback to your training once per long rest. When they have a flashback, they must describe some activity that you had them do that improved them in some way, and then they may reroll one attack roll or physical ability check and take the best result, or force an attack roll targeting them to be rerolled and take the worst result. If a roll being rerolled has Advantage, then only one die of the player's choice is rerolled.

    For example, Bloathod the Wizard is being attacked by a Red Dragon's fearsome claws. The Dragon has Advantage and rolls a 20 and a 16. The Dragon only needed a 10 to hit, so things are looking grim for Bloathod. However, as the creature's razor-sharp claws swing horizontally to de-torso him, the Wizard has a flash of recollection. For months, June the Swordbearer has been drilling him on legwork, having him do countless reps of squats and lunges and concerted dodges of what June calls her "teaching stick". One of his ribs is still bruised from that damn stick. He forces the Dragon to reroll its 20, which comes up a 7. The Dragon must take the worst result, which among a 20, 16, and 7 is the 7 - a miss. By muscle memory alone, Bloathod falls backward, bending at the knees and catching himself low to the ground with one arm. The Dragon's claw sails harmlessly over him, catching only a few stray threads from the end of his wide-brimmed hat. Bloathod then performs an ungainly kip-up, placing him back on his feet in an exhibition of physicality he thought impossible for himself.

    Brilliant Strategic Mind
    When you devise a strategy for an upcoming engagement of a military scale, you do so with great skill. Such an "engagement" could be a village defending against an Orc raiding party, or it could be the lengthy siege of a well-defended stronghold; things of such scale that ordinary combat rules cannot cover them, though the party might be involved in a smaller, specific facet of the overall battle. Your devised strategy must actually be implemented and distributed to take effect, so you must be in a trusted enough position among your side for that to occur.

    When the engagement has concluded, and the DM sums up the aftermath of the battle, you may put forth (Intelligence modifier) compromises or additions that are a result of your strategy, and you must link the cause and effect together.

    For example, a Swordbearer of Intelligence 14 is able to organize the defense of a small fishing village's militia against a much larger Orc raiding party. The player characters can't very well fight two-hundred Orcs using the normal combat system, so the DM sets them against the Orc warchief and his lieutenants, using the burning village as a backdrop for the confrontation. The player characters succeed in defeating the warchief, causing the remaining Orcs to withdraw. However, the DM states that the overwhelming force of the raiders was simply too much, and in the time it took to drive them away, the village was completely destroyed and most of its people have been slaughtered.

    Now, the Swordbearer steps in and may make two amendments. He wants to state that he had the entire civilian population evacuated and hidden in the nearby woods - however, the other players find this a little difficult to believe, as their characters had only arrived in the village a short time before. The Swordbearer thinks on it and compromises - he was able to stash the village's council, their families, and a few other important people in a safe place that the Orcs never found; these people will be critical in convincing the local duke that the Orc threat is real and a proper army needs to be mustered to keep the peace. Because he now needs to lead these people through the untamed wilderness to the province's capital in order to use them in an argument with the duke, he'd really rather not have to worry about how to feed them. He uses his second amendment to state that because of the way he positioned the militia and their barricades, the Orcs were funneled away from the village's main food stockpile and never looted it. Now the trip to the capital will be much faster without needing to secure food for dozens of extra mouths.



    The Distant Promise Of Bloodshed
    ...and so all who stood against him were not.

    Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

    Wing-Clipping Shot
    As an action, you may fire a targeted shot at a flying creature, aiming for the limbs that keep them aloft. This requires a ranged attack with a weapon, and if the attack succeeds, it deals damage as normal but also requires the target to make a (Dexterity or Constitution, your choice) saving throw. A failed save causes the target, if they rely on a set of limbs to fly, to be knocked prone and begin falling; in addition, they cannot use their damaged limbs to fly with until they receive magical healing or take a long rest.

    Improbable Soaring-Blade Guidance
    When you make a ranged attack with a weapon, you do not take Disadvantage from obscured vision (such as from fog or poor lighting) or wind, so long as the shot is possible in the first place.

    As an action, you can make a single ranged attack (with a weapon) that completely ignores wind conditions, even if the shot would normally be impossible (such as through a Wind Wall spell, or inside of a raging hurricane). However, these impossible shots have Disadvantage.

    Wizard-Hunting Practices
    To use this ability, you must be either currently wielding a ranged or thrown weapon, or have a free hand and a loaded hand crossbow or thrown weapon on your person. In the latter case, upon activation, you draw and shoot/throw the weapon as part of the ability.

    When a creature begins casting a spell within Normal Range (as in, not Long Range) of the weapon you wish to use, you may spend your Reaction to make a ranged attack against them. If the attack hits, the target must make a Constitution saving throw (DC = 1/2 damage taken, or 10; whichever is higher) or lose the spell.



    Never Outnumbered
    All his life was spent cutting that which is imperfect.

    You have Advantage on all attacks against creatures of Challenge 5 or less. Creatures of Challenge 5 or less have Disadvantage on all attacks against you. Furthermore, defeating a creature of Challenge 5 or less immediately grants you a surge of adrenaline, valor, and momentum to the tune of 5 temporary hit points. Temporary hit points granted by this ability can stack with one another to a maximum of (Intelligence modifier x 10) points. These points dissipate about five minutes after you are no longer in a combat situation.

    (Note: If using Mob Rules, DMG pg250, applying Disadvantage in this way raises the roll needed for mob creatures to hit you by 5, similar to how passive skill rolls are handled.)



    Efficiency Of Motion
    The boy looked back at the world he had saved...

    Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

    Whirlwind Cleaves The Horde
    Each round, you can make (Intelligence modifier) Opportunity Attacks without expending your Reaction.

    Doom-Reflecting Parry
    When a ranged spell attack misses you, you may spend your Reaction to redirect it toward a new target within 5ft + [5 x (Intelligence modifier)]ft of you. You roll a normal melee attack against the new target, as if you were using whatever weapon or limb it is that you're parrying with. If your attack roll succeeds, the spell hits the new target. If your attack roll fails, the spell flies off harmlessly.

    Wait And Listen
    As your turn begins, you may choose to delay your turn until a later point in the round. All effects that trigger "at the beginning of your turn" still trigger at this original time. Later in the round, after another character finishes their turn, you may choose to take your turn. Your initiative count lowers to be (that character's initiative count - 1), and remains that way through all subsequent rounds of the combat (unless you delay further on a later round). If the round is going to end without you taking your turn, you must take your turn then, and you are placed last in the initiative order.

    When you take the "Ready" action, you expend your Action for your turn as normal, but when you trigger your readied action, it does not cost your Reaction to do so. Furthermore, when you ready an action, you may choose either two different valid actions and one trigger or one action and two triggers. In the former case, when the trigger occurs, you may choose between which action to take. In the latter case, you may take your readied action when either trigger occurs.



    Blades Turned Aside
    ...and all the cosmos had been cut in his wake.

    Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

    Reversing The Crimson Tide
    When an enemy succeeds in hitting you with a melee attack exactly equal to your current Armor Class (for example, if their total attack bonus is +6, and they roll a 15 on their d20, for a total of 21 and your Armor Class happens to be 21), that attack misses instead. In addition, you may then make a free melee attack against your would-be aggressor, utilizing your surpassing skill to entirely reverse the flow of battle in that single moment.

    Sky-Slashing Kata
    Once per round, when you are the target of a ranged attack made with a weapon, before the attack roll is made, you may choose for the attack to simply miss you. You cut it out of the air with a seemingly effortless flourish.

    Ranged weapon attacks that can only hit you on a d20 roll of 18 or higher automatically miss without expending this ability. You swat them away as so many insects.

    Hardened By War
    Your maximum hit point total increases by 30 and you recover (Constitution modifier) hit points at the beginning of each of your turns, but this healing may not restore you beyond 1/2 of your maximum hit points.



    Ultimate Technique
    Standing astride a sea of corpses...

    You have refined your fighting style to the point where a pure expression of its excellence has been revealed. With utmost skill, you have mastered this expression - this Ultimate Technique. Choose one of the following options to model your Ultimate Technique; you may also name it and add some visual flairs. At the DM's discretion, it may also be possible to design a unique set of mechanics different from any given below.

    The first time you use your Ultimate Technique after a long rest, it takes a toll on your body but your supreme excellence allows you to weather its power without significant damage. You take a -2 penalty to your Strength and Dexterity scores until your next long rest. These penalties occur after the Ultimate Technique has been fully resolved. The second time you use your Ultimate Technique, your musculature has already endured its ravages once, and does not fare as well the second time. These penalties increase to -12. Each subsequent time, the penalties increase by an additional -10. If one of your scores is reduced to 0, you are rendered unconscious and placed on the brink of death until you are able to take a long rest with some degree of medical attention or restorative magic present.

    Form One
    As an action, you make seven melee attacks against a single target.

    Form Two
    As an action, you make one melee attack and apply the result to any number of targets of your choosing within 10ft of you.

    Form Three
    When you first activate this technique, it does not require an action and does not have an immediate effect (although it must be activated during your turn). Instead, place a d6 in front of you showing "1" face-up. At the beginning of each of your following turns, shift the number on the d6 up 1. As an action, you may make a single melee attack that, if successful, deals an additional [20 x (number shown on the d6)] damage. After making this special attack, discard the d6; the technique is finished. If you do not discharge this technique with an attack within one minute of activating it, it is wasted.

    Form Four
    As an action, you make one melee attack and apply the result to every valid target in a line 10ft wide and 120ft long.



    Legend Diversity
    ...he reflected on where his path had taken him...

    Choose one of: Cutting With Sheathed Sword, The Distant Promise Of Bloodshed, Efficiency Of Motion, or Blades Turned Aside. You gain one of the two options you did not choose from that class feature.

    A Sword Equal To Heaven
    "There is only one thing left for me to do." he said.

    When you kill a creature, any ability they possess that would prevent them from immediately and permanently dying does not function. This includes, for example, a Lich's Rejuvenation ability and a God's Discorporation. At a minimum, creatures slain by you require a True Resurrection or Wish spell (or similarly potent magics) to return them to life, but extensively complex and powerful creatures like Gods are not meant to be slain, and the power required to reconstitute one is unimaginably vast - if it is even possible, such a feat is the sort of thing that pantheons go on adventures to discover.
    Last edited by Xefas; 2017-04-29 at 02:50 AM.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    So, specific things I'm looking for critique/suggestions on/for in regards to the Swordbearer (but feel free to comment on whatever you'd like):

    • Is the flavor evocative enough to inspire character concepts while reading it?
    • Does the flavor reflect a demigodlike/fairytalehero-esque character?
    • Can the flavor support a variety of distinct character concepts?
    • Is the formatting easy to parse?
    • Are mechanical effects easily understood?
    • Is there adequate meaningful choice when mechanically constructing a character?
    • Do the mechanics actually allow the character to enforce their will on the world? In the Swordbearer's case, they are more combat focused than other Mythos Classes will be. Over the course of their career, they should come to a point where they can engage small armies of mortal soldiers (based on the stats given for regular folk in the Monster Manual) and defend themselves well enough against a variety of more singular monstrous enemies. A 10th level Swordbearer should be a valuable asset in a party looking to take out a god (based on Tiamat's stats in 'Rise of Tiamat'), though not capable of doing so alone and without significant preparation and effort.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    ...If I'm reading this right, Mythos characters basically start at level 11? That's an... Interesting choice. On the one hand, it very much reinforces the "only epic heroes may apply" part of Mythos. On the other, I know I llike low level play, and I think a lot of other players enjoy seeing the progression of low level characters to epic heroes. Starting at 11 removes that option entirely. I'd call this one a mixed bag.

    The Swordbearer is supposed to be the Mythic melee class, I'd like to see more support for various styles of melee combat - sword and shield, great weapon, polearm, dual wielding. Right now weapon choice doesn't really matter all that much and adding some weapon specific stuff is an easy way to promote diversity among Swordbearers.

    Also, 5e is very big on archetypes. You have a lot of great buffet-style pick-what-you-want class features going on, and that's great, but I feel like adding archetypes (even if they only get 1 or 2 features because of the class being ten levels long) would be nice. Level four and level nine are both kinda light on class features (with one being situational and the other being just a feat/ability score improvement), so you could put something there.

    The class is also very frontloaded, but that makes sense given it needs to replace 10 levels of base class progression. On some level I'm not sure why a functional Mythos class that starts at level 1 (or level 6) couldn't work, but I've never actually played 5e (or even read the full rules) so feel free to take that with a grain of salt.
    Last edited by ImperatorV; 2017-04-23 at 03:14 PM.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    [*]Is the flavor evocative enough to inspire character concepts while reading it?[*]Does the flavor reflect a demigodlike/fairytalehero-esque character?[*]Can the flavor support a variety of distinct character concepts?[*]Is the formatting easy to parse?[*]Are mechanical effects easily understood?[*]Is there adequate meaningful choice when mechanically constructing a character?[*]Do the mechanics actually allow the character to enforce their will on the world? In the Swordbearer's case, they are more combat focused than other Mythos Classes will be. Over the course of their career, they should come to a point where they can engage small armies of mortal soldiers (based on the stats given for regular folk in the Monster Manual) and defend themselves well enough against a variety of more singular monstrous enemies. A 10th level Swordbearer should be a valuable asset in a party looking to take out a god (based on Tiamat's stats in 'Rise of Tiamat'), though not capable of doing so alone and without significant preparation and effort.[/list]
    1) Totally. I kept getting thoughts of a mythical warrior veteran/general, but I'm sure others will have other concepts speak to them.
    2) Absolutely.
    3) That I'm not 100% sure of. While there are a whole mess of options, again, I just kept getting one solid concept struck in my mind. But I'm sure differently built Swordbearers would feel different in play.
    4) Easy enough for me.
    5) Ditto.
    6) Not super sure of this one. You kept things simplified for 5e, which I was honestly surprised by , but in doing so you lost a lot of the options your Mythos classes had for 3.5. In particular, I feel the Swordbearer doesn't give enough opportunities for Cool ThingsTM to Strength and/or Constitution focused characters. Wild Berserkers and Powerful Pit Fighters seem a little less supported by this class than Cunning Mercenaries and Brilliant Tacticians.
    7) Personally, I love your inspiration and World-Shaping mechanics, I think they strike a really great balance between shaping the narrative while also giving DMs new and interesting tools to help keep their plots intact mid-game. I like that aspect of the class a lot.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorV View Post
    ...If I'm reading this right, Mythos characters basically start at level 11? That's an... Interesting choice. On the one hand, it very much reinforces the "only epic heroes may apply" part of Mythos. On the other, I know I llike low level play, and I think a lot of other players enjoy seeing the progression of low level characters to epic heroes. Starting at 11 removes that option entirely. I'd call this one a mixed bag.
    But it also makes it easier if I want to add level 11-20 support for Mythos Classes. Which I might. And then you'll get to enjoy the progression of epic heroes becoming... that which it is that epic heroes become.

    The Swordbearer is supposed to be the Mythic melee class, I'd like to see more support for various styles of melee combat - sword and shield, great weapon, polearm, dual wielding. Right now weapon choice doesn't really matter all that much and adding some weapon specific stuff is an easy way to promote diversity among Swordbearers.

    Also, 5e is very big on archetypes. You have a lot of great buffet-style pick-what-you-want class features going on, and that's great, but I feel like adding archetypes (even if they only get 1 or 2 features because of the class being ten levels long) would be nice. Level four and level nine are both kinda light on class features (with one being situational and the other being just a feat/ability score improvement), so you could put something there.

    The class is also very frontloaded, but that makes sense given it needs to replace 10 levels of base class progression. On some level I'm not sure why a functional Mythos class that starts at level 1 (or level 6) couldn't work, but I've never actually played 5e (or even read the full rules) so feel free to take that with a grain of salt.
    I feel like 5e's Feats sub in nicely for the Bellator's various fighting style Mythos (Undeniable Impact, Steel Avalanche, etc). I didn't give the Swordbearer many (any?) bonus action abilities so they could take advantage of the various bonus actions granted by Shield Master, Polearm Master, Dual Wielder, etc.

    Perhaps I should make this interaction more explicit by giving the Swordbearer a Bonus Feat to be used on one of these weapon/fighting style feats?

    Currently, I don't see the advantage of archetypes. I'm not necessarily opposed to them. I'm willing to hear an argument for their pros. But I do not feel compelled to use them just because the core classes use them.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    6) Not super sure of this one. You kept things simplified for 5e, which I was honestly surprised by
    Hah!

    but in doing so you lost a lot of the options your Mythos classes had for 3.5. In particular, I feel the Swordbearer doesn't give enough opportunities for Cool ThingsTM to Strength and/or Constitution focused characters. Wild Berserkers and Powerful Pit Fighters seem a little less supported by this class than Cunning Mercenaries and Brilliant Tacticians.
    My plan is to have some broader options for the 5e Teramach (likely to be called the Monstrosity) that allow them to use weapons in order to cover the armed berserker trope. Still, I agree that there could be some more brutish options for the Swordbearer. I will need to think of some.

    7) Personally, I love your inspiration and World-Shaping mechanics, I think they strike a really great balance between shaping the narrative while also giving DMs new and interesting tools to help keep their plots intact mid-game. I like that aspect of the class a lot.
    This is probably the thing I would be most excited to see playtested (or hear about in a campaign journal, more like). It's likely the kind of thing that will take everyone in the group a few sessions to get comfortable with, but I foresee it taking some of the creative burden off the DM's shoulders while also giving players the chance to invest themselves a little more in the setting. I would love to see a player come up with a setting detail that the DM is interested in learning more about - kind of turns things on its head. The DM, in standard play, always knows what's coming up. They never get to experience that "reveal" of the fantastic in a fantasy setting.

    Anyway, going back to-

    1) Totally. I kept getting thoughts of a mythical warrior veteran/general, but I'm sure others will have other concepts speak to them.
    I am quite interested in what Ziegander, prolific fighter fixer and aficionado, would submit as their Swordbearer character concept to a hypothetical 5e Mythos game.

    Do you suppose that the change to racial ability score bonuses in the Perfected Protagonist Prana rule would open up some interesting character concepts that otherwise might not get used?

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    My plan is to have some broader options for the 5e Teramach (likely to be called the Monstrosity) that allow them to use weapons in order to cover the armed berserker trope.
    Okay, perfect. With the Shieldbearer, I had thought at first that a 5e Teramach wouldn't exist, but if it will, then I don't have much issue.

    Still, I agree that there could be some more brutish options for the Swordbearer. I will need to think of some.
    You might also consider opening up options for Charisma and Wisdom secondary Swordbearers. One of my two favorite abilities of the Swordbearer is Wise Master's Regimen, and I think more options like that for Wisdom (grizzled veteran) and Charisma (War Hero/Commander) would be welcome additions to the class' character and versatility.

    I am quite interested in what Ziegander, prolific fighter fixer and aficionado, would submit as their Swordbearer character concept to a hypothetical 5e Mythos game.
    Xefas, it would be my genuine pleasure.[/Clint]

    Here he is, Rufus Mallory, an old 3.5 character of mine who was something like Str 22/Int 18 but never had any purpose for all that Intelligence, lovingly recreated as a Swordbearer. Gotta say, the new rules look good on him!

    Do you suppose that the change to racial ability score bonuses in the Perfected Protagonist Prana rule would open up some interesting character concepts that otherwise might not get used?
    Oh, absolutely. At first I didn't think I liked it, but when I considered that High Elf and Tiefling "fighters" would now not only be viable but sometimes even optimal, I embraced it.

    The one change I would suggest at this time would be to the more general ability score array mechanics. Why not simply give them a higher point buy to reflect the omission of two-three Ability Score Increases? Slightly more versatility for players that way. Or at least as an additional option.

    [EDIT] However, upon further inspection, your array for Mythos characters is actually WAY higher than even a Fighter with three ASI's with the standard 27 point buy. Essentially you've given the Swordbearer five +2 ASIs in place of the normal two that a Barbarian would get or even the three that a Fighter would at 11th level. Now, the Swordbearer doesn't get any feats with those, but I'm still not sure it balances out as evenly as I would like. Giving the Mythos classes a 38 point buy would be roughly equivalent to three ASIs over the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and allow some more flexibility with character creation. Perhaps then you could even allow Mythos players to sacrifice three points to buy a Feat, but only three points and only one feat.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-04-24 at 12:27 AM.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Xefas, it would be my genuine pleasure.[/Clint]

    Here he is, Rufus Mallory, an old 3.5 character of mine who was something like Str 22/Int 18 but never had any purpose for all that Intelligence, lovingly recreated as a Swordbearer. Gotta say, the new rules look good on him!
    Cool. I assume he was already a Swordbearer when he took on that pack of werewolves - that's not something a regular old run-of-the-way sellsword is up to taking on singlehandedly - when did he realize he was more than just a common soldier? And what fool ambition did he realize he had, once he realized he might have the power to make it happen? Owning his own mercenary army, maybe?

    The one change I would suggest at this time would be to the more general ability score array mechanics. Why not simply give them a higher point buy to reflect the omission of two-three Ability Score Increases? Slightly more versatility for players that way. Or at least as an additional option.

    [EDIT] However, upon further inspection, your array for Mythos characters is actually WAY higher than even a Fighter with three ASI's with the standard 27 point buy. Essentially you've given the Swordbearer five +2 ASIs in place of the normal two that a Barbarian would get or even the three that a Fighter would at 11th level. Now, the Swordbearer doesn't get any feats with those, but I'm still not sure it balances out as evenly as I would like. Giving the Mythos classes a 38 point buy would be roughly equivalent to three ASIs over the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and allow some more flexibility with character creation. Perhaps then you could even allow Mythos players to sacrifice three points to buy a Feat, but only three points and only one feat.
    Level 1 Anthols intentionally have a few stat points over an 11th level core character. But, you'll also notice, the points are spread out. It's essentially a +4, +2, +2, +2. Which isn't necessarily the equivalent of putting 10 points wherever you want. It helps classes that run off many ability scores more than it helps classes that only need a few, and it allows characters to have a slightly broader area of competence (while still having two obvious weak spots) in a game that more strongly rewards specialization.

    An equivalent point buy seems like it would be directly stronger than having the bonuses spread out like they are, and reward certain classes more than others (which may become more apparent soon, as I post more classes).

    What are your thoughts?

    (I'm off to go format and post the Cynosure!)

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    I feel like this adaptation does invoke some of the more hands-off feel of 5e, especially in the abilities that involve flash-backs or redefining the narrative.

    3.5e was always so crunchy that those abilities would have felt much more out out place.

    I don't feel like it really suffers from lack of archetypes, save perhaps of symmetry with the standard classes.

    Archetypes are most there to gate abilities along flavorful paths, which isn't really an issue here.

    The Swordbearer feels quite well-rounded. They have a great deal of narrative power, can help identify the weaknesses of foes and in combat have a bevy of options to choose from.

    They get 3-choice options most of the time, which reflects what archetypes typically do anyway.

    My first thought for a character concept was a high-flying wuxia hero, but I've been reading quite a bit of that recently so I'm current biased towards it. I can definitely see the path I'd take through the mythos options; can see alternatives as well.

    One of the things I did notice; I'll echo another comment, is that there's not much here for an armored warrior. Wearing armor seems like a bad choice for this class all-together. Is this intentional?

    At any rate, I would definitely consider this a reasonable alternative to playing an 11th level caster, so that worked out.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Zale View Post
    I feel like this adaptation does invoke some of the more hands-off feel of 5e, especially in the abilities that involve flash-backs or redefining the narrative.

    3.5e was always so crunchy that those abilities would have felt much more out out place.
    Yes, I'm having a much easier time with some class concepts, in terms of how to translate them into mechanics. Also, the increased rarity and decreased potency of magic items, and the removal of the magic item shop as a standard conceit of the setting, have also helped immensely.

    On the other hand, the reduced granularity and reduced number of mechanical knobs and dials to mess with makes certain ways of expression a concept more difficult. But I always expected a trade-off like this. It didn't exactly shock me once I started brewing for 5e.

    One of the things I did notice; I'll echo another comment, is that there's not much here for an armored warrior. Wearing armor seems like a bad choice for this class all-together. Is this intentional?
    My idea was that a Strength-focused Swordbearer could dump Dexterity and wear armor. This is made less painful by their ability to use their Proficiency bonus for Initiative checks, which makes Dex slightly less of a god-stat.

    A Dexterity-focused Swordbearer, on the other hand, can forsake armor and add (Con or Int) to armor class, for the wuxia feel if they so desire.

    Perhaps I should throw in a buff for armor somewhere? I do notice that a character could eventually get 20 Dex and 20 Int, at which point their AC would be higher than Full Plate's 18. I'm not sure I see other ways that wearing armor is worse than going unarmored.

    Digging the sidereal style sutras.
    Originally, I just did one for this class because the Iron Mythos has always had a bit less myth-story flavor in its abilities. In the Teramach, I can talk about the Monster, and in the Cynosure, I can talk about the Empyrean, but the Swordbearer/Bellator is its own yet-to-be-defined thing.

    But, if this one was good, maybe I'll work on adding them to other classes as well.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Cool. I assume he was already a Swordbearer when he took on that pack of werewolves - that's not something a regular old run-of-the-way sellsword is up to taking on singlehandedly - when did he realize he was more than just a common soldier? And what fool ambition did he realize he had, once he realized he might have the power to make it happen? Owning his own mercenary army, maybe?
    Great questions, all, ones I never really considered with the character because he was a simple Fighter 8 (Dungeoncrasher) in the old days.

    I imagine he knew he was different when he could execute martial techniques after having only seen them performed once and could draw out the lay of the land from memory. Not to mention his obviously above average strength.

    Fool ambition? Execute the King for perpetuating the war machine and sacrificing thousands of soldiers to line his coffers with blood money.

    Level 1 Anthols intentionally have a few stat points over an 11th level core character. But, you'll also notice, the points are spread out. It's essentially a +4, +2, +2, +2. Which isn't necessarily the equivalent of putting 10 points wherever you want. It helps classes that run off many ability scores more than it helps classes that only need a few, and it allows characters to have a slightly broader area of competence (while still having two obvious weak spots) in a game that more strongly rewards specialization.
    Fair enough.

    An equivalent point buy seems like it would be directly stronger than having the bonuses spread out like they are, and reward certain classes more than others (which may become more apparent soon, as I post more classes).

    What are your thoughts?
    Well, a 38pt buy wasn't equivalent to your array, either, just equivalent to what a Fighter could get at 10th level with the standard array and three ASIs, but I think your method is certainly fine for a playtest (which I would love to participate in).
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Great questions, all, ones I never really considered with the character because he was a simple Fighter 8 (Dungeoncrasher) in the old days.

    I imagine he knew he was different when he could execute martial techniques after having only seen them performed once and could draw out the lay of the land from memory. Not to mention his obviously above average strength.

    Fool ambition? Execute the King for perpetuating the war machine and sacrificing thousands of soldiers to line his coffers with blood money.
    Regicide, eh? An excellent and richly storied ambition to have. So rarely does a ruler have a good head on their shoulders. Good enough to warrant leaving it there, in any case.

    Well, a 38pt buy wasn't equivalent to your array, either, just equivalent to what a Fighter could get at 10th level with the standard array and three ASIs, but I think your method is certainly fine for a playtest (which I would love to participate in).
    Ah, I think I misunderstood. So, the idea is that the option would be (1) 38pt buy, or (2) the 19, 16, 15, 14, 10, 8 array? The former being more flexible, and the latter having a few extra points to compensate for broadness? That could work.

    If I do a playtest, it'll have to be after I've made a few more classes, for the sake of giving players some choices. But if I do, I'd be more than happy to have Rufus, future Kingslayer, aboard.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Ah, I think I misunderstood. So, the idea is that the option would be (1) 38pt buy, or (2) the 19, 16, 15, 14, 10, 8 array? The former being more flexible, and the latter having a few extra points to compensate for broadness? That could work.
    Yep, that was the idea. Seems worth testing any way.

    If I do a playtest, it'll have to be after I've made a few more classes, for the sake of giving players some choices. But if I do, I'd be more than happy to have Rufus, future Kingslayer, aboard.
    It would also be good to play the Mythos classes alongside 5e casters to see how they feel balanced against each other.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    1. In general you have a good basis to how to go about doing mythos in 5e. You have kept numbers restrained while transformed many mythos into effective game altering ribbons. While the choice is diminished it is better in 5e philosophy to create categories for your abilities with context for each. Also jumping ahead 10 levels both recognizes the level hero and balances them out with other character(though see 2 for problems with this).
    2. While you may claim they aren't meant to played with other mundane characters I actually think basic 11th level mundane characters would more often than not beat your 1st level mythos characters. While stat wise you still pull ahead the lack of Extra Attacks or the like and lack of stacking features to be competitive without the DM giving you all what you want. Am I saying yours should beat them, no, but as it stands your Swordbearer attacks once. Ultimately I don't think the goal of these classes is to pump them up full of stats, proficiencies, and say mundanes are irrelevant in 5e simply because your mythic characters are still in Bounded Accuracy(mostly) as well as what I said before. They may very well need them in the beginning at least even if you fix this because mundanes have more abilities documented.
    3. As others have said sub-classes are quite crucial while these have enough choices to say that the traditional sub-class isn't necessary the thing that sticks out to me is that every level 1 Swordbearer will look very similar to one another, level 11 mundane Barbarians though not so much. So I would suggest these subclasses instead shape a context in how they are being a Swordbearer. One uses brute force, another cunning wit,..etc and put its continuing level at 9.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-04-28 at 05:48 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    2. While you may claim they aren't meant to played with other mundane characters I actually think basic 11th level mundane characters would more often than not beat your 1st level mythos characters. While stat wise you still pull ahead the lack of Extra Attacks or the like and lack of stacking features to be competitive without the DM giving you all what you want. Am I saying yours should beat them, no, but as it stands your Swordbearer attacks once. Ultimately I don't think the goal of these classes is to pump them up full of stats, proficiencies, and say mundanes are irrelevant in 5e simply because your mythic characters are still in Bounded Accuracy(mostly) as well as what I said before. They may very well need them in the beginning at least even if you fix this because mundanes have more abilities documented.
    While it's not listed in the written description, the Swordbearer has Extra Attack at 1st level and Extra Attack (2) at 6th level.

    3. As others have said sub-classes are quite crucial while these have enough choices to say that the traditional sub-class isn't necessary the thing that sticks out to me is that every level 1 Swordbearer will look very similar to one another, level 11 mundane Barbarians though not so much. So I would suggest these subclasses instead shape a context in how they are being a Swordbearer. One uses brute force, another cunning wit,..etc and put its continuing level at 9.
    This I can definitely agree with though. That was my biggest complaint in building Rufus Mallory: my only choice was between being a Str/Con monster or being a wushu Dexlord. Even one more thematic and impactful choice would make 1st level feel much better.

    Well, actually, I also found it somewhat off-putting that my character (obviously not built to take advantage of any feats like Great WeaponMastery or Sharpshooter) had no reason at all to use any nonmagical melee weapon over his fists.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    While it's not listed in the written description, the Swordbearer has Extra Attack at 1st level and Extra Attack (2) at 6th level.
    Including Extra Attack and Ability Score Improvement descriptions was totally throwing off my sutra.

    (Besides, since these two abilities have special provisions for multiclassing anyway, and are altogether generic across classes, I feel the PHB should've just printed them once at the beginning of the class chapter and used that wordcount for something else.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    3. As others have said sub-classes are quite crucial while these have enough choices to say that the traditional sub-class isn't necessary the thing that sticks out to me is that every level 1 Swordbearer will look very similar to one another, level 11 mundane Barbarians though not so much. So I would suggest these subclasses instead shape a context in how they are being a Swordbearer. One uses brute force, another cunning wit,..etc and put its continuing level at 9.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    This I can definitely agree with though. That was my biggest complaint in building Rufus Mallory: my only choice was between being a Str/Con monster or being a wushu Dexlord. Even one more thematic and impactful choice would make 1st level feel much better.

    Well, actually, I also found it somewhat off-putting that my character (obviously not built to take advantage of any feats like Great WeaponMastery or Sharpshooter) had no reason at all to use any nonmagical melee weapon over his fists.
    What do you guys think about this to replace the current Wielding The Sword Of Will?




    Wielding The Sword Of Will
    ...so he sought the wicked and cut them apart.

    When you make a melee attack (or several attacks in a round) with a weapon (or unarmed strike) against an enemy, describe how you do so. It needn't be elaborate, though you must describe more than that you simply make an attack and roll dice. Perhaps you fling a flurry of feints and flourishes into your foe before flaying them with a furious fusillade of forays with your falchion. Or maybe you throw sand in their eyes and kick them in the shins. Whatever. Possibly you have a set of special techniques from a formal martial art (self-taught or otherwise), an array of distinct stances and strikes that outmaneuver your enemies - possibly they have flowery names. That's up to you.

    For each attack you give some manner of appropriate description, choose one of the following bonuses to add to the attack:

    • Your attack deals +5 damage if successful.
    • Your attack has +2 on the attack roll.
    • If the attack is successful, make another melee attack against a target you have not yet attacked this turn. You may not apply this option to the new attack.
    • A bonus defined by your chosen feat, below.
    • A second bonus defined by your chosen feat, below.

    Furthermore, choose a Feat from the following list that you meet the prerequisites for: Dual Wielder, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Shield Master, or Tavern Brawler. You gain this feat, and add two more options to the above list of attack modifications based on the feat chosen. The additional options are spoilered below.

    Spoiler
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    Dual Wielder
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a separate weapon in each hand.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you disarm their weapon and send it hurdling up to 10ft away from them.
    • If the attack is successful, you may move to any other space adjacent to your target, or an ally adjacent to you may move to any other space adjacent to you. These movements do not provoke Opportunity Attacks.

    Great Weapon Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a Heavy weapon.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target either cannot make a Reaction until the beginning of your next turn, or they may choose to lose their next Legendary Action if they have one or more of those.
    • If the attack is successful, choose one of your target's allies that is adjacent to them, within your melee reach, and has an AC equal to or lower than your original target, then choose a second ally of your target that is adjacent to either prior target, within your melee reach, and has an AC equal to or lower than your original target. Both of these additional targets take (your Strength modifier) damage.

    Polearm Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a weapon that qualifies for the benefits of the Polearm Master feat.
    • If the attack is part of an Opportunity Attack, and successful, the attack does not expend your Reaction. (If you have the Whirlwind Cleaves The Horde ability, you may have the attack not count against your limit of Opportunity Attacks per round instead.)
    • If the attack is successful, and being used against a mounted target, the target is knocked off their mount and lands prone in an adjoining space of your choice.

    Shield Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a shield.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead impose Disadvantage on all of the target's attacks against anyone other than you until the beginning of your next turn.
    • If the attack is successful, the target has Disadvantage on Strength and Dexterity checks to resist being shoved until the beginning of your next turn.

    Tavern Brawler
    The following options are only available if you're wielding no weapons, or only improvised weapons.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, they have Disadvantage on all attacks targeting you, and you have Advantage on all saving throws they impose on you, until the beginning of your next turn.
    • If the attack is successful, you may pick up and throw an improvised weapon as an attack against a target within 20ft that you have not yet attacked this turn.

    Last edited by Xefas; 2017-04-29 at 02:49 AM.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Dual Wielder
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a separate weapon in each hand.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you disarm their weapon and send it hurdling up to 10ft away from them.
    • If the attack is successful, you may move to any other space adjacent to your target, or an ally adjacent to you may move to any other space adjacent to you. These movements do not provoke Opportunity Attacks.
    As it stands, the Swordbearer doesn't receive +STR or +DEX to damage when attacking with a second weapon. With this, they are firmly encouraged to disarm or manoeuvre around an opponent, rather than using an offhand weapon to damage them... hmm... how interesting.

    For the Great Weapon Master feat bonuses, perhaps a rewording along the lines of "Up to two allies within your reach and adjacent to the target take your Strength modifier in damage if the initial attack would have hit them." may be in order. I also feel like the second one, rewording aside, is quite superior to the second. Forgo damage to mildly inconvenience them? No thanks, I'd rather murder them with a lump of metal. It's what I do.

    For Shield Master+, I would say the first bonus shouldn't require the loss of damage dealt in order to 'Mark' a target, since they are already drawing aggro.

    It took me a disappointingly long time to work out that this was where all the Fighting Styles wound up. Sweet.

    Is there a max to the number of times you can chain hits with the third option? Just sayin'.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by spwack View Post
    Is there a max to the number of times you can chain hits with the third option? Just sayin'.
    Your other critiques seem reasonable. I will leave the originals up, unaltered for now, so that others can weigh in for or against or otherwise. This quoted bit, however, I'll go change immediately. It was not my intention that the new attacks could be 'chained' in this way, but it certainly reads that way.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    I'm sort of ambivalent regarding the new Sword of Will. On one hand, gaining the feats is huge, on the other, the new attack options feel very, very, very niche.

    I haven't slept in about 20 hours and counting, so take this with a grain of salt, I don't mean it as sour as it probably sounds, but I think I'd rather the Swordbearer just keep the original Sword of Will ability and also gain a Fighting Style a la the PHB (or a la my own 5e Fighter rewrite).
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by spwack View Post
    As it stands, the Swordbearer doesn't receive +STR or +DEX to damage when attacking with a second weapon. With this, they are firmly encouraged to disarm or manoeuvre around an opponent, rather than using an offhand weapon to damage them... hmm... how interesting.

    For the Great Weapon Master feat bonuses, perhaps a rewording along the lines of "Up to two allies within your reach and adjacent to the target take your Strength modifier in damage if the initial attack would have hit them." may be in order. I also feel like the second one, rewording aside, is quite superior to the second. Forgo damage to mildly inconvenience them? No thanks, I'd rather murder them with a lump of metal. It's what I do..
    Perhaps we should take the term "disarm" literally here, and have it do a set amount of damage, for examples sake, five hit points. The hand is quite an easy target for a skilled swordsman, and it certainly makes the ability feel more menacing than a simple disarm.

    As for the second, maybe have it move the person you hit? I can imagine a Swordbearer (working with a team), using this to pull targets from in-front of them, to the middle of the rest of the party.
    While you now know that no amount of experience or determination is going to make the fireball slamming into your shield less of a fireball, not only are you better at not getting burnt, you can now console yourself with the fact you are forcing an archmage to rely upon projectile spells over his precious rays. And while mocking him for it isnít helping your situation, it certainly makes it more enjoyable

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Holy cow, 5E Mythos? In my lifetime? What's next, flying pigs, freezing hells, and world peace?

    Anyhow, this is great work as usual, Xefas, and I honestly can't wait to cajole my RPG-playing friends to play a game using these classes. There's only one small nitpick, though; why did you change the Bellator's name to Swordbearer? The rest of the 5E Mythos classes still use fancy Greek/Roman names, and Bellator sounds much more intimidating/magnificient/imposing/plain-out cool than Swordbearer.

    (Seriously, Swordbearer sounds like a lame PF archetype on the level of Weapon Bearer Squire.)

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I'm sort of ambivalent regarding the new Sword of Will. On one hand, gaining the feats is huge, on the other, the new attack options feel very, very, very niche.

    I haven't slept in about 20 hours and counting, so take this with a grain of salt, I don't mean it as sour as it probably sounds, but I think I'd rather the Swordbearer just keep the original Sword of Will ability and also gain a Fighting Style a la the PHB (or a la my own 5e Fighter rewrite).
    The 4th and 5th options were already niche. The first 3 are the bread n' butter options. All the same, do you have a link to your 5e Fighter? I'm not sure if it's missing from your homebrewer's signature, or if I'm just not seeing it like a dummy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesamonman View Post
    Perhaps we should take the term "disarm" literally here, and have it do a set amount of damage, for examples sake, five hit points. The hand is quite an easy target for a skilled swordsman, and it certainly makes the ability feel more menacing than a simple disarm.

    As for the second, maybe have it move the person you hit? I can imagine a Swordbearer (working with a team), using this to pull targets from in-front of them, to the middle of the rest of the party.
    These are helpful and duly noted for the next version.

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Holy cow, 5E Mythos? In my lifetime? What's next, flying pigs, freezing hells, and world peace?

    Anyhow, this is great work as usual, Xefas, and I honestly can't wait to cajole my RPG-playing friends to play a game using these classes. There's only one small nitpick, though; why did you change the Bellator's name to Swordbearer? The rest of the 5E Mythos classes still use fancy Greek/Roman names, and Bellator sounds much more intimidating/magnificient/imposing/plain-out cool than Swordbearer.

    (Seriously, Swordbearer sounds like a lame PF archetype on the level of Weapon Bearer Squire.)
    It was a common complaint that some folks couldn't remember which classes were attached to each name - as in, that the Kathodos is the elemental one, and Olethrofex is the deathly one, and so on.

    So, I decided to use English names this time around, except for the Mechanikos (changed from Michanikos, which is more accurate), which looks and sounds sufficiently like 'Mechanical' that I expect it to be an easy association. I considered just making it the 'Machinist' or 'Mechanist', but I wanted to evoke that it's magitechnical, rather than purely technical.

    Cynosure is an English word already (albeit Greek-descended).

    I think the names will look a little less odd once I start getting out more classes. But if there's sufficient interest, perhaps a middle ground can be found (giving each class a mortal name and a more esoteric name, for instance).

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    While it's not listed in the written description, the Swordbearer has Extra Attack at 1st level and Extra Attack (2) at 6th level.



    This I can definitely agree with though. That was my biggest complaint in building Rufus Mallory: my only choice was between being a Str/Con monster or being a wushu Dexlord. Even one more thematic and impactful choice would make 1st level feel much better.

    Well, actually, I also found it somewhat off-putting that my character (obviously not built to take advantage of any feats like Great WeaponMastery or Sharpshooter) had no reason at all to use any nonmagical melee weapon over his fists.
    1. I saw the Extra Attack(2), hence why I said level 1, my bad, but none the less I stand by my claim. 2 good battle abilities, good stats, and a couple more proficiencies does not equal better than 4-6+ battle abilities. Heck I would even think a well designed level 20 Barbarian(actually stronger and more health) could take down a level 10 Swordbearer on a unobstructed field.
    2. I was merely giving out ideas to have examples and I would believe this design would not preculde dabbling.
    3. As I said I don't believe the goal is to outclass martials. In 3e spellcasting grew exponentially and was linked to every crucial set of equipment in the game. While some of the versatility is there(although greatly decreased) with a couple of exceptions for unbalanced spells but even they don't allow stacking of any kind, have express permission to screw with people, and/or are stuck with a small save DC of 19 against monsters to whom can just say I succeed.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-04-30 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    Heck I would even think a well designed level 20 Barbarian(actually stronger and more health) could take down a level 10 Swordbearer on a unobstructed field.
    This is actually something I would like to test. Would it be too unreasonable of me to ask you to whip up a level 20 Barbarian character sheet for me to crash-test current and future classes against?

    I would assume that magic items wouldn't factor in, since presumable both parties would be equally benefited. Although, a Swordbearer with Sagacity Of Forge And Blade can actually make them as a class feature, so perhaps they should be compensated in some way.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    This is actually something I would like to test. Would it be too unreasonable of me to ask you to whip up a level 20 Barbarian character sheet for me to crash-test current and future classes against?

    I would assume that magic items wouldn't factor in, since presumable both parties would be equally benefited. Although, a Swordbearer with Sagacity Of Forge And Blade can actually make them as a class feature, so perhaps they should be compensated in some way.
    1. I can punch one in but I would see if I can get in a PDF to send it to you.
    2. I would just stick with +1 equipment on both sides as to test each other's battle capabilities. As I said before besting a martial almost every time shouldn't be the goal here. Even if you would succeed in cramming enough abilities over the course of this class to do so while being good in a whole bunch of other stuff this design is still quite impotent in general capabilities at effective level 11 only getting a couple of proficiencies to compensate against spells, rituals, other very useful ribbons, and expertise. Nor do I think this would be balanced against the characters over all.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-04-30 at 05:57 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    The 4th and 5th options were already niche. The first 3 are the bread n' butter options. All the same, do you have a link to your 5e Fighter? I'm not sure if it's missing from your homebrewer's signature, or if I'm just not seeing it like a dummy.
    Here's a link (with some lightning edits I've been meaning to make for a while). It's a good 5e-style tweak to the basic mechanics, but it's the Fighting Styles that I think would work well with your Swordbearer.

    It was a common complaint that some folks couldn't remember which classes were attached to each name - as in, that the Kathodos is the elemental one, and Olethrofex is the deathly one, and so on.
    I do like the name Swordbearer, especially as this class is meant to exemplify a very sort of mortal character even by Mythic standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    1. I saw the Extra Attack(2), hence why I said level 1, my bad, but none the less I stand by my claim. 2 good battle abilities, good stats, and a couple more proficiencies does not equal better than 4-6+ battle abilities. Heck I would even think a well designed level 20 Barbarian(actually stronger and more health) could take down a level 10 Swordbearer on a unobstructed field.
    Maybe? I'm not sure I'm seeing it, but even so, I don't think the Swordbearer is meant to be THE STRONGEST THERE IS in a series of one on one duels against a Fighter or Barbarian, but rather, and Xefas, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the Swordbearer is designed to perform better and with greater versatility and function against the game system, ie exploration and the monster manual, than the Fighter or Barbarian.

    And in that, I'd say that the Swordbearer seems to be a success. But I suppose that should also bear out in game testing.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-04-30 at 06:53 PM.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Maybe? I'm not sure I'm seeing it, but even so, I don't think the Swordbearer is meant to be THE STRONGEST THERE IS in a series of one on one duels against a Fighter or Barbarian, but rather, and Xefas, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the Swordbearer is designed to perform better and with greater versatility and function against the game system, ie exploration and the monster manual, than the Fighter or Barbarian.

    And in that, I'd say that the Swordbearer seems to be a success. But I suppose that should also bear out in game testing.
    1. Well currently as is this has 3 abilities of utility and all are quite strong, but they are given in the first 2 levels of the class. None of them alter the game like spells do. As such I would contend that strong utility sub-classes such as both the 1/3 casters, Totem Warrior, nearly all Rogues, and Way of the Shadow are competitive. There is a reason why I selected the Barbarian. Am i saying this is worse, absolutely not, but it seemed like puffery to me when he said that this shouldn't be along the side of other martials especially if multi-classing is allowed.
    2. To me the goal of these classes should be to say between a variety a mythos classes a spell caster isn't necessary in a high difficulty and variety campaign, especially if there are casters to face. Whether or not they are always better is up for debate and shouldn't be a priority.

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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Including Extra Attack and Ability Score Improvement descriptions was totally throwing off my sutra.
    The fact that this is a concern at all sums up a lot of why I love Mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post

    Wielding The Sword Of Will
    ...so he sought the wicked and cut them apart.

    When you make a melee attack (or several attacks in a round) with a weapon (or unarmed strike) against an enemy, describe how you do so. It needn't be elaborate, though you must describe more than that you simply make an attack and roll dice. Perhaps you fling a flurry of feints and flourishes into your foe before flaying them with a furious fusillade of forays with your falchion. Or maybe you throw sand in their eyes and kick them in the shins. Whatever. Possibly you have a set of special techniques from a formal martial art (self-taught or otherwise), an array of distinct stances and strikes that outmaneuver your enemies - possibly they have flowery names. That's up to you.

    For each attack you give some manner of appropriate description, choose one of the following bonuses to add to the attack:

    • Your attack deals +5 damage if successful.
    • Your attack has +2 on the attack roll.
    • If the attack is successful, make another melee attack against a target you have not yet attacked this turn. You may not apply this option to the new attack.
    • A bonus defined by your chosen feat, below.
    • A second bonus defined by your chosen feat, below.

    Furthermore, choose a Feat from the following list that you meet the prerequisites for: Dual Wielder, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Shield Master, or Tavern Brawler. You gain this feat, and add two more options to the above list of attack modifications based on the feat chosen. The additional options are spoilered below.

    Spoiler
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    Dual Wielder
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a separate weapon in each hand.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you disarm their weapon and send it hurdling up to 10ft away from them.
    • If the attack is successful, you may move to any other space adjacent to your target, or an ally adjacent to you may move to any other space adjacent to you. These movements do not provoke Opportunity Attacks.

    Great Weapon Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a Heavy weapon.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target either cannot make a Reaction until the beginning of your next turn, or they may choose to lose their next Legendary Action if they have one or more of those.
    • If the attack is successful, choose one of your target's allies that is adjacent to them, within your melee reach, and has an AC equal to or lower than your original target, then choose a second ally of your target that is adjacent to either prior target, within your melee reach, and has an AC equal to or lower than your original target. Both of these additional targets take (your Strength modifier) damage.

    Polearm Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a weapon that qualifies for the benefits of the Polearm Master feat.
    • If the attack is part of an Opportunity Attack, and successful, the attack does not expend your Reaction. (If you have the Whirlwind Cleaves The Horde ability, you may have the attack not count against your limit of Opportunity Attacks per round instead.)
    • If the attack is successful, and being used against a mounted target, the target is knocked off their mount and lands prone in an adjoining space of your choice.

    Shield Master
    The following options are only available if you're wielding a shield.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead impose Disadvantage on all of the target's attacks against anyone other than you until the beginning of your next turn.
    • If the attack is successful, the target has Disadvantage on Strength and Dexterity checks to resist being shoved until the beginning of your next turn.

    Tavern Brawler
    The following options are only available if you're wielding no weapons, or only improvised weapons.
    • If the attack is successful, you may forgo all damage inflicted and instead force the target to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, they have Disadvantage on all attacks targeting you, and you have Advantage on all saving throws they impose on you, until the beginning of your next turn.
    • If the attack is successful, you may pick up and throw an improvised weapon as an attack against a target within 20ft that you have not yet attacked this turn.


    While the others have noted some issues with this, I'd like to note that I think it works well as is. I'd be happy with a revision instead though.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    It has World-Shaping Demiurge Authority, though, which does alter the game in a manner similar to spells, giving this Mythos "Fighter" a similar level of narrative-defining power to spells, just done in a different way. I'd say that feature alone puts it leagues ahead of any non-spellcaster Rogue or Fighter and still probably in front of Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters.

    When we're talking about Paladins and Monks? I'm not so sure, and I've been meaning to ask Xefas about them, but, still, the Swordbearer interacts with gameplay on a fundamentally different level than the class it is meant to "replace," so I don't think Xefas is wrong to say that it should probably not share a game table with the existing Fighter class.

    So while I agree with you, to an extent, that an 11th level Champion isn't totally outclassed in combat by a 1st level Swordbearer (part of that is bounded accuracy, part of that is class features), the outside utility and versatility that the Swordbearer has might make the Champion feel boring by comparison, which was, I think, Xefas' reasoning why they shouldn't play at the same table.
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    Default Re: 5e Mythos General Rules + Swordbearer Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Maybe? I'm not sure I'm seeing it, but even so, I don't think the Swordbearer is meant to be THE STRONGEST THERE IS in a series of one on one duels against a Fighter or Barbarian, but rather, and Xefas, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the Swordbearer is designed to perform better and with greater versatility and function against the game system, ie exploration and the monster manual, than the Fighter or Barbarian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    So while I agree with you, to an extent, that an 11th level Champion isn't totally outclassed in combat by a 1st level Swordbearer (part of that is bounded accuracy, part of that is class features), the outside utility and versatility that the Swordbearer has might make the Champion feel boring by comparison, which was, I think, Xefas' reasoning why they shouldn't play at the same table.
    This is generally my reasoning, yes. My concern is not that a Barbarian cannot kill a standard adventuring day worth of calculated encounters as effectively as the Swordbearer (or slightly more effectively).

    My concern is that, in a game where the players are proactive about their goals in the world, the GM will say, "Alright, how do you take over this kingdom?", the Cynosure will say, "I will use World-Shaping Demiurge Authority to create a faction of dissenters in the kingdom's hierarchy, then I will meet with their leadership, crush their will with my gaze, and charm them to our side." and the Mechanikos will say, "And I will build an automated factory that spits out point-and-click flamethrowers to give our military the edge against greater numbers." and the Swordbearer says, "And I will ensure that, in every battle our forces engage in, if we win, the enemy will be decimated beyond reason. And and in every battle we lose, our forces will only grow in patriotic morale while the king's men will grow more weary fighting their own countrymen."

    And the Barbarian is like "And I will be on my phone while you guys plan all of this out. Shove me when there's a thing for me to stab."

    And then when a fight does show up, and five hundred swordsmen and five hundred archers come rolling over the next hill, the Swordbearer uses Sky-Slashing Kata and Never Outnumbered to wade into that fray, parrying 1523 out of every 1524 attacks (being hit once every three rounds via mob rules; the archers auto-miss and the melee guys only hit once out of every 24 attacks or so, with 8 guys dogpiling the Swordbearer at a time) while the Barbarian is looking much more antsy about the proposition.

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