[3.5] Core-Only Wizard vs...

[Zanos]

I think falling back on the wizard not using the full extent of his abilities as an argument is basically a surrender in a vs. scenario.

Yes, if you continue to pull spells off the wizard, he will eventually lose. While how much you need to pull off is an interesting discussion, merely asserting that the wizard will lose if you take away enough of his toys is not.

[Lord Raziere]

Though really if we're being honest, its kind of unfair to compared optimized wizard to inherently unoptimized franchises. If we're going to compare them, they should be compared at the same level of intelligence and optimization, rather than be bound by story.

Therefore, I will now I optimize Dragon Ball to create the actual foe for the Wizard to face.

Bio-Androids are a creation of Dr. Gero, prove that its possible for a genius scientist to create a fighter from wildly different races and their DNA to form a coherent workable being that is more powerful than any fighter before them. Thus by taking DNA from purely good-hearted fighters from the following races: Saiyan, Namekian, Arcosian, Hit's Race, Shinjin, I then put the developing Bio-Android and its tube, the machine that makes it grow inside the Hyperbolic Time chamber for about 15-20 days, or 15-20 years within. The Bio-Android comes out and I use surgery to implant the two infinite energy drives. They are now like Perfect Cell, but with divine ki and Improvement ability from Hit as well as Zenkai. Lets call this Bio-android, Genome.

I am far from done. Genome is given all the necessary scrolls to learn various techniques and goes back into the Hyperbolic Time chamber to learn them with a sparring partner to tirelessly improve themselves. Within, Genome learns them in seconds rather than years due to Hit's Improvement ability and Move Mimicry from a sufficiently genius fighter allowing him to improve and learn various techniques within seconds of combat rather than months of training, as well as magic, including Matter Materialization, Instantaneous Movement (Instant Transmission but better), Telekinesis, Telepathy, the time-Skip technique as well as how to create the Dragon Balls himself. The Bio-Android makes them and wishes for immortality within the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and they go scattering within the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Genome then steps outside the chamber and waits one day then goes back in, gather all the dragon Balls within the chamber and wishes that all his offspring become immortal when he spawns them. If thats not possible all his offspring make their time chamber and set of Dragon Balls when they are born and wish for immortality.

He then trains inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until he attains SS Blue from his Saiyan DNA. As well as training to reach Golden Arcosian form like Freeza and combine it with SS Blue. Now Genome memorizes various blueprints and so on of various useful devices, inventions food and so forth so that he conjure them with Matter Materialization. Including Trunks Time Machine, Capsules, spaceships, gravity chambers, Hyperbolic Time chamber combined with closed environment farms for maximum food production, Whis's staff and other such inventions. Genome then begins producing Genome Jrs. who due to genetic memory all know his techniques and almost as strong as him. The Genome Jr.s then spread across all twelve universes with Instantaneous Movement and Matter Materialization, satisfying any want or need by conjuring anything anyone could possibly desire and making their own sets of Dragon Balls for anything that Matter Materialization cannot cover, improving the living conditions for them all to the point where Zeno judges none of them need to be destroyed because they are all utopias, as well as absorbing criminals of every race that have earned the death penalty and any Genome Jr. that detects a threat coming lets every Genome Jr. in reality know about it through a reality-wide telepathy network, and if that fails, every single Genome Jr. can conjure a Time Machine to go back in time and warn their past selves about to make them more prepared about the threat and use both Dragon Balls and time Chambers to train and wish for the appropriate defenses and countermeasures if anything goes wrong then go back to the future to defeat you.

you are now facing an immortal tireless hivemind of hyper-powered time traveling Bio-Androids capable of alerting all of reality to the threat you pose and adapting to whatever you throw at them until they win.

This is Dragon Ball, when optimized to the same level of intelligence as is assumed when people are assuming a level 20 wizard is facing anyone. As is only fair.

[Zanos]

Ok. The wizard is also the overdeity, because the entire universe bends over backwards to bring about his existence in this hypothetical scenario. He snaps his fingers and unmakes everything.

[Ellrin]

Ok. The wizard is also the overdeity, because the entire universe bends over backwards to bring about his existence in this hypothetical scenario. He snaps his fingers and unmakes everything.

Seems to me like he should hold a tournament first with representatives from every universe and unmake the universes of all the losers.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok. The wizard is also the overdeity, because the entire universe bends over backwards to bring about his existence in this hypothetical scenario. He snaps his fingers and unmakes everything.

haha! Is that the best you can come up with? for the DnD wizard of which this thread speaks, all of existence must bend over backwards as well for them to come into existence by allowing them to get all those spells as well. this seems simply like a salty retort that when someone finally points out that the Optimal level 20 wizard is as different from Elminster as Genome is from Goku, suddenly you resort to an out of nowhere retort that makes no sense.

My point simply is, if you want to compare franchises, do it on equal terms. Elminster and Goku are both canon characters nowhere near as powerful as the theoretical actual limit of those universes and therefore you should compared goku to Optimal 20 Wizard , just as you should not compare Elminster to Genome aka Optimal God Level Bio-Android.

All universes have an optimization ceiling, and all official stories within those universes rarely go those ceilings if at all, much like Elminster and Drizz't. If you going to compare them, stop comparing the Low-Op official characters to the High Op theoretical construct, or find the high-op theoretical construct answer to your own. Or just compare the Low-Op official characters.

Fairness is all I'm asking.

[Zanos]

Your example is combining every 'compatible' power in the setting in ways which haven't been shown to work by canon. To start, cell never had access to any of his donor DNAS transformations, and even his usage of their learned techniques was limited.

The wizard example is a 20th level wizard who picked intelligent level up spells, or merely scribed many additional ones in ways most D&D settings don't make complex. It doesn't take a specific set of circumstances for a wizard to know a lot of spells. Your suggested "fair" comparison is pretty ridiculous. As suggested, the equivalent is a character who has every power in the D&D system.

But if you want to use an actual canon wizard, take Larloch. I mean, he isn't level 20, but he also doesn't exist by the good graces of his setting. At the very least he's proof that a wizard can acquire all core spells without the planets aligning, which is pretty much the extent of the optimization happening here.

[ben-zayb]

Are we including fanfic characters now to combat legitimate, rules-as-written wizard 20? That's kinda cute. The two aren't even comparable, though, as the former is more akin to Lightning Warrior (aka homebrew / fan work).

I'm pretty sure the challenge is neither "any D&D-lore wizard of choice" vs "my fanfic character", "any D&D-lore wizard of choice" vs fictional character, nor legitimate core-only wizard 20 vs "my fanfic character". It's legitimate core-only wizard 20 vs fictional character.

[Ellrin]

Are we including fanfic characters now to combat legitimate, rules-as-written wizard 20? That's kinda cute. The two aren't even comparable, though, as the former is more akin to Lightning Warrior (aka homebrew / fan work).

I'm pretty sure the challenge is neither "any D&D-lore wizard of choice" vs "my fanfic character", "any D&D-lore wizard of choice" vs fictional character, nor legitimate core-only wizard 20 vs "my fanfic character". It's legitimate core-only wizard 20 vs fictional character.

You're straw-manning. His example may be sort of out there, but the point he was fairly obviously making is that an optimized wizard 20 with no personality beyond "get all the spells" and "prepare for literally everything" isn't an entirely fair comparison to an established character with deep character flaws in a setting with a pre-determined plot.

He's not wrong, regardless of the original proposal's outlines and the problems with his attempt at running an analogy.

And before anyone brings up the wizard's ungodly Int score again--as if that in itself excuses the wizard not having any character traits--, high Int doesn't even mean you're automatically capable of recognizing every potential weakness you might have and automatically knowing how to guard it. People are people, regardless of how inhumanly high their Int is, and they make mistakes and overlook stuff. Besides, having a sense for what to be paranoid about is really more a function of Wis in D&D, though obviously our optimized wizard is entirely capable of having a very good Wis score.

[ben-zayb]

the point he was fairly obviously making is that an optimized wizard 20 with no personality beyond "get all the spells" and "prepare for literally everything" isn't an entirely fair comparison to an established character with deep character flaws in a setting with a pre-determined plot.

So from what you are saying, an extremely competent wizard apparently defaults to having no personality...got it. Well, hello there, Oberoni. I can assure you the most complex characters Toriyama created (much as I love DB/DBZ) does not hold a candle to the depth of many epic wizard sheets that I've come across.

The original poster has said absolutely nil about requiring D&D lore characters and subscribing to the power level in D&D stories, while the one I'm responding to is moving goalposts based on some arbitrary standards just so the contenders have a non-zero chance. We're already doing it on equal terms, because the wizard being used is legitimate to exist within the game, and I'm not homebrewing my own lightning warrior or any other stuff that can be built for the system. Strawman doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Buufreak]

Though really if we're being honest, its kind of unfair to compared optimized wizard to inherently unoptimized franchises. If we're going to compare them, they should be compared at the same level of intelligence and optimization, rather than be bound by story.

Therefore, I will now I optimize Dragon Ball to create the actual foe for the Wizard to face.

Bio-Androids are a creation of Dr. Gero, prove that its possible for a genius scientist to create a fighter from wildly different races and their DNA to form a coherent workable being that is more powerful than any fighter before them. Thus by taking DNA from purely good-hearted fighters from the following races: Saiyan, Namekian, Arcosian, Hit's Race, Shinjin, I then put the developing Bio-Android and its tube, the machine that makes it grow inside the Hyperbolic Time chamber for about 15-20 days, or 15-20 years within. The Bio-Android comes out and I use surgery to implant the two infinite energy drives. They are now like Perfect Cell, but with divine ki and Improvement ability from Hit as well as Zenkai. Lets call this Bio-android, Genome.

I am far from done. Genome is given all the necessary scrolls to learn various techniques and goes back into the Hyperbolic Time chamber to learn them with a sparring partner to tirelessly improve themselves. Within, Genome learns them in seconds rather than years due to Hit's Improvement ability and Move Mimicry from a sufficiently genius fighter allowing him to improve and learn various techniques within seconds of combat rather than months of training, as well as magic, including Matter Materialization, Instantaneous Movement (Instant Transmission but better), Telekinesis, Telepathy, the time-Skip technique as well as how to create the Dragon Balls himself. The Bio-Android makes them and wishes for immortality within the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and they go scattering within the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Genome then steps outside the chamber and waits one day then goes back in, gather all the dragon Balls within the chamber and wishes that all his offspring become immortal when he spawns them. If thats not possible all his offspring make their time chamber and set of Dragon Balls when they are born and wish for immortality.

He then trains inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until he attains SS Blue from his Saiyan DNA. As well as training to reach Golden Arcosian form like Freeza and combine it with SS Blue. Now Genome memorizes various blueprints and so on of various useful devices, inventions food and so forth so that he conjure them with Matter Materialization. Including Trunks Time Machine, Capsules, spaceships, gravity chambers, Hyperbolic Time chamber combined with closed environment farms for maximum food production, Whis's staff and other such inventions. Genome then begins producing Genome Jrs. who due to genetic memory all know his techniques and almost as strong as him. The Genome Jr.s then spread across all twelve universes with Instantaneous Movement and Matter Materialization, satisfying any want or need by conjuring anything anyone could possibly desire and making their own sets of Dragon Balls for anything that Matter Materialization cannot cover, improving the living conditions for them all to the point where Zeno judges none of them need to be destroyed because they are all utopias, as well as absorbing criminals of every race that have earned the death penalty and any Genome Jr. that detects a threat coming lets every Genome Jr. in reality know about it through a reality-wide telepathy network, and if that fails, every single Genome Jr. can conjure a Time Machine to go back in time and warn their past selves about to make them more prepared about the threat and use both Dragon Balls and time Chambers to train and wish for the appropriate defenses and countermeasures if anything goes wrong then go back to the future to defeat you.

you are now facing an immortal tireless hivemind of hyper-powered time traveling Bio-Androids capable of alerting all of reality to the threat you pose and adapting to whatever you throw at them until they win.

This is Dragon Ball, when optimized to the same level of intelligence as is assumed when people are assuming a level 20 wizard is facing anyone. As is only fair.

See? I'm with this guy. If we can TO to Hell and back with the wizard, why not his opponent? Just one thing: I didn't know they officially named Freizas race. What is the other less obvious one you listed?

[Ellrin]

So from what you are saying, an extremely competent wizard apparently defaults to having no personality...got it. Well, hello there, Oberoni. I can assure you the most complex characters Toriyama created (much as I love DB/DBZ) does not hold a candle to the depth of many epic wizard sheets that I've come across.

The original poster has said absolutely nil about requiring D&D lore characters and subscribing to the power level in D&D stories, while the one I'm responding to is moving goalposts based on some arbitrary standards just so the contenders have a non-zero chance. We're already doing it on equal terms, because the wizard being used is legitimate to exist within the game, and I'm not homebrewing my own lightning warrior or any other stuff that can be built for the system. Strawman doesn't mean what you think it means.

You're still straw-manning, actually, which makes me think you might need the refresher on its meaning. Nobody's saying an optimized wizard 20 can't be a character. The theoretical wizard 20 we've been talking about isn't a specific character, though, it's the soulless construct we use for thought experiments that a lot of people refer to as the batman wizard.

What the poster you were attempting to argue against was doing isn't moving goalposts so much as arguing that we're comparing apples to oranges--which, again, is a completely fair thing to assert in any discussion. The issue is not whether that assertion conforms to your arbitrary goalposts or the OP's original question; it's whether the comparison is indeed flawed, and I'd say a pretty good argument could be made that it is.

[Lord Raziere]

See? I'm with this guy. If we can TO to Hell and back with the wizard, why not his opponent? Just one thing: I didn't know they officially named Freizas race. What is the other less obvious one you listed?

Its not an official name, but I use it for convenience.

Shinjin is the Kai race, the one that all the Kais and Supreme Kais belong to. This gives access to divine ki which allows one have living ki that cannot be detected, as well as permanent fusion using Potara earrings if its ever needed. also since they're the Gods of creation, its probably a good idea to have their DNA just in case you need to have Shinjin/Kai DNA to access the full powers of Creation/Matter materialization.

Also, the Genome Jrs. will also beat up the Gods of Destruction and take their jobs. That gives twelve Genome Jrs access to the Destroy Command which destroys anything in existence with only a poke without needing a fight, as well as putting the job in more trustworthy hands than the actual Gods of Destruction.

[Segev]

Given the current objection to the "Wizard 20" is that it's a TO monstrosity compared to what amount to PO implementations of other settings' systems, perhaps it would be more fair if we asked various forumites to post any PC Wizard 20s they happen to have played and use them as the benchmarks? Bonus points go to those who actually "earned" level 20 by playing from at least level 10 or so (and the lower the starting level, the better).

[Gullintanni]

Given the current objection to the "Wizard 20" is that it's a TO monstrosity compared to what amount to PO implementations of other settings' systems, perhaps it would be more fair if we asked various forumites to post any PC Wizard 20s they happen to have played and use them as the benchmarks? Bonus points go to those who actually "earned" level 20 by playing from at least level 10 or so (and the lower the starting level, the better).

This is closer to what I mean when discussing Astral Projection as a less than 100% of the time event. Is a Wizard really going to eat breakfast while projecting? Is that even possible? What about when doing research, or going to the bathroom? Can one rest while outside of one's material body? Are the day-to-day operations of a Wizard compatible with full time projection? I doubt a lot of creatures would choose to live this way, relying on other, more comfortable safeguards when at peace time. The Wizard in question doesn't need Projection for self-preservation, and given how invasive it is, from a role-playing perspective, I wouldn't consider it the first line of defense, but rather, the last. The phrase "Barebones Optimization" strikes me as somewhere in the neighbourhood of "Wizard that would be played at the table without the DM throwing books". Powerful within the confines of the gentleman's agreement.

If one of my players came to the table insisting on being a Projection at all times, they could bet on Gith assassins sent by rivals and enemies with Silver Cords in sight. More likely though, I'd just sit my player down and suggest that they tone down the cheese.

Barebones Op suggests to me that our wizard is not an Evoker who's banned Conjuration and Transmutation, but is, instead, probably a Conjurer who's banned Necromancy and Evocation. They prepare spells such as Time Stop, Astral Projection, and Dominate Monster instead of Meteor Shower so that they have those tools available, rather than going full stop, TO Batman at all times. One of the reasons I find this to be a useful definition is that:

A. It's internally consistent with the scenario presented within the original post; and,
B. It allows us to have a conversation that's a little more in depth than "Lol, Wizard wins".

EDIT:

If we're going all out on optimization within core, and assuming that the Wizard is in Astral Form at all times, remember that the text of Astral Projection specifically, by RAW, shunts the Wizard's material form to the Prime Material plane. Frieza, or one of the more unscrupulous powers in the Z-verse, proceeds in a manner that presents the least inherent risk to themselves, blows up the planet, destroying the Wizard's body along with it, and winning the fight handily. ...but I think that's about as disingenuous as the notion of Projecting at all times.

[Zanos]

Astral Projection has never really be considered cheesy at tables I've played at. Getting killed at level 17+ is more like a nap unless you're playing with some homebrewed rules that bans resurrection spells.

If you want to get anal with astral projections RAW, nothing stops the wizard from plane shifting his own body to where he needs it to be, even if it's transported to the material, or only works initially from the material.

[Coidzor]

If we're going all out on optimization within core, and assuming that the Wizard is in Astral Form at all times, remember that the text of Astral Projection specifically, by RAW, shunts the Wizard's material form to the Prime Material plane. Frieza, or one of the more unscrupulous powers in the Z-verse, proceeds in a manner that presents the least inherent risk to themselves, blows up the planet, destroying the Wizard's body along with it, and winning the fight handily. ...but I think that's about as disingenuous as the notion of Projecting at all times.

More disingenuous, in that it's actually disingenuous, as it has them act against character.

Neither Freeza, Cell, Buu, nor Zamasu just instantly went to blowing up the planet. Even when Buu and Zamasu wanted to kill everyone on it, essentially on a whim.

They would need to be given a reason to do so, and given the nature of things, either A. the Wizard takes them out or takes them over or B. the first set of tricks doesn't actually work and the villain basically dismisses them as a threat, and may or may not attempt to pop the Astral Projection.

Astral Projecting in these kinds of scenarios is worlds away from "all out" optimization, as I have already covered.

See? I'm with this guy. If we can TO to Hell and back with the wizard, why not his opponent? Just one thing: I didn't know they officially named Freizas race. What is the other less obvious one you listed?

Because inventing some kind of composite character for no other reason than to try to beat the wizard is irrelevant to seeing how a wizard would stack up against the actual setting and unless everyone buys in, it's an irrelevant tangent.

Luckily for you and Raziere's bizarre hate-boner for competent wizardry, it seems the thread has decided to buy-in.

[Segev]

The buy-in would be better to approach it from the angle I suggested: present actual wizard 20s that have seen play, preferably through leveling up to there.

There is legitimacy in questioning the "hypothetical wizard 20" vs "actually fleshed-out specific characters."


Though if we want to play that game, we can just do game v game: Wizard 20 vs. an Elder Solar Exalt.

[Lord Raziere]

Because inventing some kind of composite character for no other reason than to try to beat the wizard is irrelevant to seeing how a wizard would stack up against the actual setting and unless everyone buys in, it's an irrelevant tangent.

Luckily for you and Raziere's bizarre hate-boner for competent wizardry, it seems the thread has decided to buy-in.

Inventing some kind of composite wizardly character for no other reason than to try to beat a fantasy adventure game is irrelevent to actually going and playing out that adventure using actual limitations that real life has.

and whats with your bizarre hate-boner for a competent Dragon Ball martial artist?

[Buufreak]

Luckily for you and Raziere's bizarre hate-boner for competent wizardry, it seems the thread has decided to buy-in.

Lol, hate boner? That's cute, considering how I defended wizardry a few pages back.

[Zanos]

The wizard isn't a composite, though. It's just a wizard.

[Lord Raziere]

The wizard isn't a composite, though. It's just a wizard.

But is its spell list?

and Genome is just a martial artist. just because he gets that martial skill from being a genetic frankenstein of various fighters through genetic memory, doesn't mean he isn't a competent martial artist like Cell is, or better than Cell. its just a good canonical way to get lots of techniques and skill early on, nothing wrong with it.

[Quertus]

[

Given the current objection to the "Wizard 20" is that it's a TO monstrosity compared to what amount to PO implementations of other settings' systems, perhaps it would be more fair if we asked various forumites to post any PC Wizard 20s they happen to have played and use them as the benchmarks? Bonus points go to those who actually "earned" level 20 by playing from at least level 10 or so (and the lower the starting level, the better).

Astral Projection has never really be considered cheesy at tables I've played at. Getting killed at level 17+ is more like a nap unless you're playing with some homebrewed rules that bans resurrection spells.

Well, most of my comments have been based on actual wizards I actually played, usually from low level.

Speaking of which, at most tables, death is pretty irrelevant to a level 20 wizard. Compared to resurrection magic, Astral Projection is actually much less cheesy, as it costs the wizard part of his personal, daily resources, which is what 3e CR is supposedly based around.

Now, me, I've never had a character resurrected. Playing in a "realistic", combat as war, no resurrection scenario, Astral Projection is all but a requirement to actually reach level 20.

Now, some of my DMs were more combat as sport, so not all my wizard 20s use Astral Projection. But this scenario, as described, sounds much more like combat as war, so Astral Projection seems perfectly valid, to me.

Actually, by being "core only", it's kinda stupidly stilted, especially since creating custom items, researching custom spells, and the most broken spells in the game are in core. It makes it easier to discuss what Theoretical Wizard 20 does, but harder to talk about what Real Wizard 20 does. Because Real Wizards(TM) don't play "core only".

[Coidzor]

Inventing some kind of composite wizardly character for no other reason than to try to beat a fantasy adventure game is irrelevent to actually going and playing out that adventure using actual limitations that real life has.

I invite you to re-read the OP of this thread. The purpose of this thread is not to "beat a fantasy adventure game" as you have apparently very badly misunderstood it.

The purpose of this thread is to explore how a creature with the capabilities and possibly mindset of a level 20 Wizard with only access to Core spellcasting stacks up against a set of fictional universes and an invitation to bring up other fictional universes that they were unaware of that would be interesting to see how the Wizard compares.

and whats with your bizarre hate-boner for a competent Dragon Ball martial artist?

Well, I didn't come into this thread to poo-poo anything and your composite monstrosity is not "competent," it is a deliberately created bit of fanfiction that does not realistically reflect the Dragon Ball setting and therefore does not meaningfully serve as a comparison between a Wizard 20 and the denizens of that setting, which we already know even characters that are frankly irrelevant at the start of Dragon Ball Z could physically destroy the Wizard or pop an Astral Projection if allowed.

Lol, hate boner? That's cute, considering how I defended wizardry a few pages back.

That should read Raziere's hate boner and you, sorry. Raziere's posts speak for themselves.

[Lord Raziere]

I invite you to re-read the OP of this thread. The purpose of this thread is not to "beat a fantasy adventure game" as you have apparently very badly misunderstood it.

The purpose of this thread is to explore how a creature with the capabilities and possibly mindset of a level 20 Wizard with only access to Core spellcasting stacks up against a set of fictional universes and an invitation to bring up other fictional universes that they were unaware of that would be interesting to see how the Wizard compares.



Well, I didn't come into this thread to poo-poo anything and your composite monstrosity is not "competent," it is a deliberately created bit of fanfiction that does not realistically reflect the Dragon Ball setting and therefore does not meaningfully serve as a comparison between a Wizard 20 and the denizens of that setting, which we already know even characters that are frankly irrelevant at the start of Dragon Ball Z could physically destroy the Wizard or pop an Astral Projection if allowed.



That should read Raziere's hate boner and you, sorry. Raziere's posts speak for themselves.

1. Nothing says that we have to be restricted to Low-OP version of those universes, I'm not demanding that you stick to Low-OP DnD after all.

2. That sounds remarkably similar to what I think of the Batman wizard only aimed at Genome! Perhaps this means maybe Genome and level 20 wizard are not so different and on some level they are BOTH competent things at what they do AND fan fiction characters of those settings that don't realistically reflect them considering the effects they have on them, and perhaps its all just depends on your point of view. its not my fault if you can't handle High-Op Dragon Ball.

3. and so do your Coidzors. and so do you yours. I hold no animosity here, I'm just realized we should be fair about this and and stop restricting the High-OP mindset to just one franchise. there is nothing wrong with that.

[Segev]

I bring up Solar Exalted because that's a game system, so we can divorce ourselves from "this specific character vs. generic wizard 20" and go to "generic High-Essence Solar vs. generic Wizard 20."



Though I still think the easiest way to optimize a DBZ character is for Krillin to get the Dragonballs, call up the Eternal Dragon, and say, "I wish I was an immortal Saiyin...retroactively."

[Coidzor]

1. Nothing says that we have to be restricted to Low-OP version of those universes, I'm not demanding that you stick to Low-OP DnD after all.

There's a world of difference between a faithful version of a setting and your proposal, which disregards canon and personalities in favor of trying to deliberately engineer a wizard killer to express your dislike of the premise of this thread.

I still can't for the life of me figure out where this non sequitur of an idea of fairness, what you think it actually is, and why you think it matters that things be more "fair" or, more properly, give more leeway to depart from canon to the settings where a Core-only Wizard 20 would be powerful than an actually fair, relatively unbiased, and direct comparison of the setting as-is and the capabilities of a Core-only Wizard 20.

2. That sounds remarkably similar to what I think of the Batman wizard only aimed at Genome! Perhaps this means maybe Genome and level 20 wizard are not so different and on some level they are BOTH competent things at what they do AND fan fiction characters of those settings that don't realistically reflect them considering the effects they have on them, and perhaps its all just depends on your point of view.

A Wizard 20's capabilities are fairly well defined by a large but limited list of spells that we all have access to due to being online, and not a composite as Zanos pointed out, and no, the Wizard 20's spell list isn't a composite either. Feats are ultimately irrelevant and the largest point of divergence would be school specialization vs. being a generalist.

its not my fault if you can't handle High-Op Dragon Ball.

It's not "High-Op" Dragon Ball. It's fanfiction that diverges so totally from the canon of Dragon Ball that it's worthless as a point of comparison.

3. and so do your Coidzors. and so do you yours. I hold no animosity here, I'm just realized we should be fair about this and and stop restricting the High-OP mindset to just one franchise. there is nothing wrong with that.

Your idea of what is "fair" is frankly bizarre and bears little to no resemblance to actual fairness.

What does it even matter to you and why does it even matter to you that a setting's canon be vulnerable or unable to uniformly curbstomp a Wizard 20?

[Zanos]

But is its spell list?

No, you're thinking of a wyrm wizard. Or less popularly, a Rainbow Servant wizard.

[Lord Raziere]

There's a world of difference between a faithful version of a setting and your proposal, which disregards canon and personalities in favor of trying to deliberately engineer a wizard killer to express your dislike of the premise of this thread.

I still can't for the life of me figure out where this non sequitur of an idea of fairness, what you think it actually is, and why you think it matters that things be more "fair" or, more properly, give more leeway to depart from canon to the settings where a Core-only Wizard 20 would be powerful than an actually fair, relatively unbiased, and direct comparison of the setting as-is and the capabilities of a Core-only Wizard 20.



A Wizard 20's capabilities are fairly well defined by a large but limited list of spells that we all have access to due to being online, and not a composite as Zanos pointed out, and no, the Wizard 20's spell list isn't a composite either. Feats are ultimately irrelevant and the largest point of divergence would be school specialization vs. being a generalist.



It's not "High-Op" Dragon Ball. It's fanfiction that diverges so totally from the canon of Dragon Ball that it's worthless as a point of comparison.



Your idea of what is "fair" is frankly bizarre and bears little to no resemblance to actual fairness.

What does it even matter to you and why does it even matter to you that a setting's canon be vulnerable or unable to uniformly curbstomp a Wizard 20?

1. and your Wizard 20 disregards canon and personalities of Drizz't, Elminster and so on, whats the difference?

2. Nor can I figure out the non-sequitur idea that somehow a Wizard 20 being able to curbstomp everything but nothing else is allowed to, and that when you do its fine but when I just demonstrate a similarly optimized character along the same principle but with a settings canon facts just as you do, but not in DnD its somehow bad, its just a character that solves all the problems in setting just as a Wizard 20 does. the fact that it does actually beat a lvl 20 Batman Wizard is just a bonus.

3. and a martial artist's capabilities are fairly well defined by a large but limited list of techniques. choice of race doesn't really matter to that, unless your saying that you don't take the most optimal race choice for a wizard yourself.

4. funny, thats what Tippyverse looks like to me compared to canon DnD: a weird fan fiction that so totally diverges from canon DnD that i'm not sure why you go there and why you compare it to canon DnD. thank you for understanding my viewpoint.

5. and your idea of fairness in DnD is also bizarre to me, and also bears little to no resemblance to actual fairness when compared to say a Fighter. what does it even matter to you that a wizard should always be able to beat a fighter? why does it matter to you that Genome isn't canon Dragon Ball yet Batman Wizard is anything but canon DnD? we are not so different. can you not see what you look like from the outside looking in, now that your own optimization logic is applied to a different setting? I must thank you for at least better articulating my problems with your own favored optimal character. Though the Genome Jr. Hivemind is my own favored optimized character now I'm going to save it to my computer, its really a thing of beauty all by itself.

[Zanos]

There are canon wizards who are hilariously paranoid and reclusive, like, as I already mentioned, Larloch.

[Lord Raziere]

There are canon wizards who are hilariously paranoid and reclusive, like, as I already mentioned, Larloch.

and there are canon martial artists who make wishes on the dragons to become immortal, ones who produce Cell Jr. clones and use Matter Materialization, Instantaneous Movement and so on. 1. Zamasu, 2. Cell, and 3. Piccolo, Kibito, Supreme Kai.