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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default MM3 on a business card, improved

    Inspired by this:
    https://dmg42.blogspot.ca/2012/02/bo...e-forever.html

    Code:
         Base         per level
    AC:   14          +1
    NAD:  12          +1
    ATK:  +5          +1
    HP:   24          +8
    
    Damage:
            Minion    Low      Med    High     Limit
    1       5         1d6+3    1d8+5  1d12+6   1d10+10
    2       6         1d6+5    1d8+7  1d12+8   1d10+13
    3       7         2d6+3    2d8+5  2d12+5   2d10+11
    4       8         2d6+4    2d8+6  2d12+7   2d10+13
    5       9         2d6+6    2d8+9  2d12+10  2d10+16
    
    +5:     +5        +2d6     +2d8+1 +2d12   +2d10+4
    
    AKA:    20%       30%      40%    50%      60%  (PC HP per hit)
    
    Encounter power: +1 or +2 columns
    Brute: +1 column
    Multi-target: -1 column
    
    Roles:
    Soldier: +2 AC
    Brute: -2 AC, +2 HP +2*Level HP
    Artillery: -2 AC, -3 HP -2*Level HP
    Lurker: -3 HP -2*Level HP
    
    Categories:
    Minion: only 1 HP (does not take damage on a miss), Minion damage
    Elite: x2 HP, +1 column damage
    Solo: x4 HP, +1 column damage, action economy compensation
    Thoughts? Am I on crack here?

    The AKA row displays the percent of a player's HP that a blow of that strength will cause. It matches what monsters do at level 1, roughly. Players gain more tactical options for dealing with monster damage and hits as they gain levels, so they should still have a power edge over monsters that scale this way. And being hit remains scary with these damage expressions; being crit can be deadly.

    Limit is designed to do more average damage than High, but not on a crit (max damage of Limit and High is nearly identical). A crit of a High/Limit blow is basically the max HP of a 5 HP/level character.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    May 2012

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    You know, I came up with something similar. The 1st Level Damage Forever calculations are really, really good - and completely necessary IMO at the high Epic levels we're currently at. It's no longer a business card, more of a cheat sheet. We're at the high 20's (28th now) so that's where my focus is.

    Code:
    Level	Low DC	Med DC	High DC	Avg AC	Avg FRW	Low HP	Med HP	High HP	Minion	Low Damage	Medium Damage	High Damage	Limited Damage
    20	18	25	34	35	33	139	184	230	20	5d8+8 (30.5)	3d12+21 (40.5)	3d12+35 (54.5)	6d12+28 (67)
    21	19	26	35	36	34	145	192	240	20	5d8+10 (32.5)	3d12+23 (42.5)	3d12+38 (57.5)	6d12+31 (70)
    22	20	27	36	37	35	151	200	250	21	4d10+11 (33)	4d12+18 (44)	4d12+33 (59)	5d20+20 (72.5)
    23	20	27	37	38	36	157	208	260	22	4d10+13 (35)	4d12+19 (45)	4d12+36 (62)	5d20+23 (75.5)
    24	21	28	37	39	37	163	216	270	23	4d10+14 (36)	4d12+21 (47)	4d12+38 (64)	5d20+26 (78.5)
    25	21	29	38	40	38	169	224	280	24	5d10+10 (37.5)	5d12+16 (48.5)	5d12+34 (66.5)	5d20+29 (81.5)
    26	22	29	39	41	39	175	232	290	25	5d10+11 (38.5)	5d12+18 (50.5)	5d12+36 (68.5)	5d20+32 (84.5)
    27	22	30	39	42	40	181	240	300	25	5d10+12 (39.5)	5d12+20 (52.5)	5d12+38 (70.5)	5d20+35 (87.5)
    28	23	30	40	43	41	187	248	310	26	4d12+15 (41)	6d12+15 (54)	6d12+34 (73)	5d20+37 (89.5)
    29	23	31	41	44	42	193	256	320	27	4d12+16 (42)	6d12+17 (56)	6d12+36 (75)	6d20+30 (93)
    30	24	32	42	45	43	199	264	330	28	4d12+18 (44)	6d12+18 (57)	6d12+39 (78)	6d20+33 (96)
    31	24	32	42	46	44	205	272	340	29	4d12+20 (46)	6d12+20 (59)	6d12+42 (81)	6d20+36 (99)
    32	25	33	43	47	45	211	280	350	30	4d12+22 (48)	6d12+21 (60)	6d12+44 (83)	6d20+39 (102)
    33	25	33	44	48	46	217	288	360	31	4d12+24 (50)	6d12+23 (62)	6d12+46 (85)	6d20+42 (105)
    34	26	34	45	49	47	223	296	370	32	4d12+26 (52)	6d12+25 (64)	6d12+48 (87)	6d20+45 (108)
    35	26	35	45	50	48	229	304	380	33	4d12+28 (54)	6d12+27 (66)	6d12+50 (89)	6d20+48 (111)
    													
    d6=3.5	d8=4.5	d10=5.5	d12=6.5	d20=10.5									
    3d6=10.5	3d8=13.5	3d10=16.5	3d12=19.5	3d20=31.5									
    4d6=14	4d8=18	4d10=22	4d12=26	4d20=42									
    5d6=17.5	5d8=22.5	5d10=27.5	5d12=32.5	5d20=52.5									
    6d6=21	6d8=27	6d10=33	6d12=39	6d20=63
    PAD - 357,549,260

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    Things I don't like about mine: too many dice. I don't want a huge table, but I want a way to eliminate rolling 12d to determine damage on every attack.

    Things I don't like about yours: bonuses are too large, dice too small. Not enough variance.

    I believe that Limited expression damage needs to have its crit kept more under control than high damage expressions, just to avoid the one-hit problem.

    I could go back to first principles.

    Minion: 5+Level
    Low: 1.5 minion
    Medium: 2.0 minion
    High: 2.5 minion
    Limit: 3.0 minion

    At level 11 your damage should be:

    Minion: 16
    Low: 24
    Medium: 32
    High: 40
    Limit: 48

    Ah, I have an idea. Starting at paragon, start roling 10* 1d6 and the like.

    It keeps variance up, math easy, and # dice low.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    Ok, here is an attempt to factor that in, yet keep it business-card sized.

    First, I used 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% of (Level+3)*5. Real characters are more like (Level+4)*5. This means that the damage scales up by an extra 20% over 30 levels; players get better at surviving death and healing, so damage should go up as well.

    Code:
    Heroic Damage
          Minion    Low     Med      High    Limit
    1       4      1d6+2   1d10+2   1d12+3   3d6+0
    2       5      1d6+4   1d10+4   1d12+6   4d6+0
    3       6      1d6+5   1d10+6   1d12+9  5d6+0
     
    +3     +3     +1d6+1   +1d10   +1d12+1  +2d6+2
    
    Paragon and Epic Damage
    10     13     10d3     10d4     10d6    10d6+5
    15     18     10d4     10d4+10  10d8    10d8+10
    20     23     10d6     10d6+10  10d10   10d10+15
    25     28     10d6+5   10d8+15  10d12+5 10d12+20
    30     33     10d8+5   10d10+15 20d6+15 20d6+30
    
    +1     +1      +1       +2      +2       +3
    
    Roll 10d6 as "1d6*10".  Roll 20d6 as "2d6*10".
    Heroic is divided into 3 parts of 3 levels: 1-3, 4-6, 7-9. There is a 3 level table, and a way to add +3 levels.

    Only "Limit" ends up with buckets of dice.

    At level 10+, we switch to "10x some die, plus a modifier". This keeps rolling and math simple and quick, and variance high.

    The dice at level 10+ are updated every 5 levels. We could do another one at level 35, but I don't care enough to. The intended scaling of Low and High include a half-point a level, but because we update every 5 levels this only results in it falling 2 points behind. To make up for it, when the roll isn't a plain 10d6+0, I added +1 damage.

    Then I rounded the 10+ damage expressions to the nearest 5. Because easier to remember. The per level add is still non-round.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Dec 2015

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Things I don't like about mine: too many dice. I don't want a huge table, but I want a way to eliminate rolling 12d to determine damage on every attack.
    I'd just use an increasing base+larger dice size.

    So 50 damage(on average) can be represented by 10d6+15, but can also be done with 2d12+37+crit of +2d12. You get roughly the same numbers - ~75 damage on a critical hit, 50 on a normal, but one is easier to roll than the other

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    I'd guess that the variance on 2d12+37 is tiny compared to 10d6+15.

    VAR(d12) = 143/12
    VAR(2d12) = 143/6 = 28.83...
    VAR(d6) = 35/12
    VAR(10d6) = 175/6 = 29.16...

    Hmm, not much different. So I'm wrong there. (smaller dice don't add up variance that fast)

    But if you replace 10d6 with 1d6*10, we get a lot of variance
    VAR(1d6*10) = 100*VAR(1d6) = 1750/6 = 291.66...

    SD(2d12) =~ 5.37...
    SD(1d6*10) =~ 17.08...

    That is more than 3 times the standard deviation. Which means 2d12+37 is *actually* 39 to 61 damage in 95% of cases, an effective range of 22 points or 44% of the average damage. (2 standard deviation radius is a 95%+ interval)

    1d6*10 + 15 is 25 to 75, an effective range of 50 points or 100% of the average damage.

    In one case, rolling for damage is almost pointless. In the other, rolling for damage generates lots of information.

    At low levels, rolling for damage has lots of information. 1d8+3 has an average of 7.5 and a range of 93% of the average damage. 1d4+5 has a range of 40% of the average damage. In one case, that damage roll really matters -- in the other, replace it with the average of the roll and nobody would really notice.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2017-04-28 at 01:31 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
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    May 2012

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Things I don't like about yours: bonuses are too large, dice too small. Not enough variance.
    I'd love to take credit, but I just expanded what I found in the 1st Level Damage Forever blog post.

    So far, I have liked limiting the dice to 6 per damage roll; it works fairly well. Of course, more d6's could be faster to calculate than half as many d12's.

    The format got garbled, but I put in a cheat sheet for the average values of XdY down at the bottom for easier swaps/conversions.
    PAD - 357,549,260

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    So, I did another iterative simplification of level 10+ damage.

    Level 10+ damage calculation

    The damage track is:
    d3*10 d4*10 d6*10 d8*10 d10*10 d12*10+5 2d6*10+10 2d8*10+15

    Start at d3*10.

    Move 1 right for every damage expression type above low.
    Move 1 right for every 5 levels above 10.

    Add +2 damage for every extra level leftover (over and above the multiples of 5) except low damage, which adds only +1 per extra level.

    So level 27 high damage is:
    med high (d3 d4 d6)
    15 20 25 (d8 d10 d12+5)
    +2 levels leftover (+4)
    so 1d12*10+9

    And that is it.

    This tracks 30%/40%/50%/60% of expected player HP surprisingly well.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2017-04-29 at 08:49 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    May 2016

    Default Re: MM3 on a business card, improved

    It's worth noting that, using DMG 42's assumptions regarding hit point gain, you get a similar effect on average damage as a fraction of PC hit points if you reduce average hit point gain from 5/level to 3/level.

    Here is the spreadsheet. You're gonna want to look at sheet 2.
    Last edited by Beoric; 2017-04-30 at 12:19 AM.

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