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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Elkreeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    If I go for Warlock MC I'm gonna go for hexblade or great old one (this is ongoing, still have time to decide as I level up) .

    For context:
    I'm a Oath of Vengeance Fallen Aasimar following a Lawful Neutral god of Protection that because of ongoing events is not gonna be able to redeem himself (as in I won't become a normal aasimar again).
    I wish to mercilessly bring down a cult leaded by the parties main antagonist (a random spell caster) and to me, in character, it would make sense to fight fire with fire given how things have gone so far. I've been getting visions but not given to me by a Deva because "it" doesn't speak to me. I took the Magic Initiate Feat because of this and now it would either make sense to take 3 levels in fighter to become a Eldritch Knight and become more physically resilient while exploring the arcane or to go for a warlock of some sort because of the same reason and the visions. (My Cha is the same as my Str, 16)

    Warlock seems more "profitable" in the long run because I have more slots to dump into Divine Smite.

    (Edit: a lot of my ineptitude comes from being "new" to 5e; I say I mostly played 2e and 4e, and for that reason I don't have many concepts of how to optimize this)
    Last edited by Elkreeal; 2017-04-30 at 09:29 AM.
    Tiefling Paladin|Warlock/Entrancing Mystic Avatar by Phae Nymna

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Well unlike you, I'm just completely new to DnD at any level!

    However, look back at my brainstorming, because I laid out some of the points of fighter (up to L4) taking either Battle Master or Eldritch Knight. (Including spell multiclassing).

    Bear in mind if you take EK it will affect your spell slots.

    Warlock doesn't affect spell slots when Multiclassing.

    To work out your spell level is Paladin (rounded down) + ⅓ Eldritch Knight (rounded down)

    For a 6/4 P/EK that's level 4 (3+1). Then reference the multiclass spell table to see what slots you have. NOT the Paladin or EK tables.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    OK - I bought the DM SCAG ;)

    So SCAG is now in, giving me BB and GFB options...

    AND - XGtE is also in, giving me the CELESTIAL patron

    Suddenly this is getting betterer and betterer...

    Character creation imminent!

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Dappershire View Post
    So I haven't played 5E, though I'm interested. But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?
    I keep seeing this combo of Paladin Warlock come up because 'optimized'. But...like...how?

    I can understand the devil wanting a paladin's soul, but how does the paladin not instantly fall? Even if its not Infernal patronage, a Great Old One is just as bad, on the chaos spectrum, possibly the evil spectrum, and definitely the madness spectrum. Even an Arch Fey, being so alien in thought and expectation, should make a Paladin fall. Any major oath to any service other than the God in question should be grounds for dismissal.
    Do players explain this for their characters? Or do DMs not care? "Palock? Cool. Smiting Hex all over my face. Lets do this." It just makes so little sense to me.
    In addition to all the other brilliant arguments already stated, you can also consider what this kind of dialogue implies:

    NPC: Hey, uh, what's a Paladin doing making pacts with forces dark beyond imagining?
    Pallock: Well, I'll just say that there's a reason I don't drink anymore.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post
    ...

    As for where I want to take it after P6/W4, I'm undecided.

    Looking at the levels, there are some things I definitely want and others that don't seem that useful (right now anyway)

    Paladin
      • Devine Sense - Meh
      • Lay On Hands - Yes
      • Fighting Style - Yes (probably Duelling although they all bring something to the table)
      • Spells - Yes
      • Divine Smite - Hell Yes
      • Divine Health - Nice
      • Sacred Oath (Devotion)
        • (Channel Divintiy) Sacred Weapon - Yes
        • (Channel Divinity) Turn the Unholy - Meh
    1. ASI - Always Welcome
    2. Extra Attack - Always Welcome
    3. Aura Of Protection - Yes
    4. Aura Of Devotion - Meh
    5. ASI - Always Welcome
    6. Nothing
    7. Aura of Courage - Meh
    8. Improved Divine Smite - Yes
    9. ASI - Always Welcome
    10. Nothing
    11. Cleansing Touch - Meh
    12. Purity of Spirit - Meh
    13. ASI - Always Welcome


    Warlock
      • Pact Magic - Yes (and not subject to spell Multiclassing rules)
      • Patron Feature (GOO), Awakened Mind - Yes
    1. Eldritch Invocations - Yes
    2. Pact Boon (Blade) - Hell yes
    3. ASI - Always Welcome
    4. Nothing
    5. Entropic Ward - Meh
    6. Nothing
    7. ASI - Always Welcome
    8. Nothing
    9. Thought Shield - Nice
    10. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
    11. ASI - Always Welcome
    12. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
    13. Create Thrall - Meh
    14. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
    15. ASI - Always Welcome


    Looking at those lists next to each other, aiming for Improved Divine Smite seems better than Thought Shield.

    With that in mind, to squeeze the ASI I think I would aim for a L20 P12/W8.

    It's that or freeze Warlock at 4 and take Paladin to 16.

    I think the former as the Warlock spell slots and Invocations are probably more useful.

    Or not...

    The difference is 2 long rest level 5 spells or 2 invocations.
    Ok, the Celestial Patron is definitely the path I want to tread.

    Now I definitely want Paladin to 6...

    Before Celestial I was going to go Paladin 12 / Warlock 8 as the final goal...

    But the Celestial Patron Features at 10 and 14 are quite good.

    Celestial Resilience and Searing Vengeance...

    Which puts me in another quandary...

    I really wanted Aura Of Protection and Improved Divine Smite, but Searing Vengeance is soo good.

    So... Bearing in mind I get the extra attack benefits in different ways...

    Should I change from P12/W8 to P6/W14?

    Or should I forgo Aura of Protection and Extra Attack and go P4/W16 to maintains ASI's and gain Mystic Arcanum?

    I think I'm going to go P4 off the bat, then P4/W4 and then see how it goes.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post
    Which puts me in another quandary...

    I really wanted Aura Of Protection and Improved Divine Smite, but Searing Vengeance is soo good.

    So... Bearing in mind I get the extra attack benefits in different ways...

    Should I change from P12/W8 to P6/W14?

    Or should I forgo Aura of Protection and Extra Attack and go P4/W16 to maintains ASI's and gain Mystic Arcanum?

    I think I'm going to go P4 off the bat, then P4/W4 and then see how it goes.
    I am currently running a Paladin 4 / Warlock 1 that will end up as a Paladin 13 (Ancients) / Warlock 7 (Hex, Chain)

    1) Eldritch Blast will improve at 5th level regardless of if you get extra attack or not. So I found Paladin 2 / Warlock 1 / Paladin +3 to be ideal for 1st-6th level. However it depends heavily on what your first feat/ASI will be.

    2) I find 13:7 a good ratio because it gives me Warlock slots at the same levels as my Paladin slots (kinda makes me a short rest Paladin). My alternatives are 12:8 and 14:6. 12:8 gives you an extra feat (what is your 5th feat/ASI going to be?) at the cost of 4th level Paladin auras. 14:6 gives you cleansing touch (a powerful ability but you would get it rather late) at the cost of 4th level short rest spell slots from warlock.

    3) You are looking at Searing Vengeance (Celestial Warlock 14) where you get free contingent healing up to half your max hp once per long rest. To get that from your current plan you will lose 3rd level Paladin spells (Paladin 9), Improved Divine Smite, and possibly a feat, but gain Searing Vengeance and some Mystic Arcanum(1 6th & 1 7th per long rest). I would look up the 3rd level Paladin spells (like Aura of Vitality) before deciding.

    4) I have heard that high level saves are near impossible without proficiency or Aura of Protection. (1d20+2 vs DC 19 is only a 20% chance of success and some monsters get higher DCs than that, and I was presuming your 3rd major save had an ability score of 14)
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-12-31 at 12:35 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    I'm doing a similar build. Currently Paladin1/Warlock2. End goal is Paladin11/Lock9 for 5th level lock slots and improved smite. Ancients paladin and celestial warlock. Aasimar just because I really want to abuse spellless healing.
    Next level doing 2/2 (125 xp to go) so I can have 4 spell slots can start smiting. Then 3rd lock for pact(probably tome for ritual fun) and then paladin up to 7 for oath, extra attack, and both auras

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post


    As for where I want to take it after P6/W4, I'm undecided.

    Looking at the levels, there are some things I definitely want and others that don't seem that useful (right now anyway)

    Paladin
      • Devine Sense - Meh
      • Lay On Hands - Yes
      • Fighting Style - Yes (probably Duelling although they all bring something to the table)
      • Spells - Yes
      • Divine Smite - Hell Yes
      • Divine Health - Nice
      • Sacred Oath (Devotion)
        • (Channel Divintiy) Sacred Weapon - Yes
        • (Channel Divinity) Turn the Unholy - Meh
    1. ASI - Always Welcome
    2. Extra Attack - Always Welcome
    3. Aura Of Protection - Yes
    4. Aura Of Devotion - Meh
    5. ASI - Always Welcome
    6. Nothing
    7. Aura of Courage - Meh
    8. Improved Divine Smite - Yes
    9. ASI - Always Welcome
    10. Nothing
    11. Cleansing Touch - Meh
    12. Purity of Spirit - Meh
    13. ASI - Always Welcome


    Warlock
      • Pact Magic - Yes (and not subject to spell Multiclassing rules)
      • Patron Feature (GOO), Awakened Mind - Yes
    1. Eldritch Invocations - Yes
    2. Pact Boon (Blade) - Hell yes
    3. ASI - Always Welcome
    4. Nothing
    5. Entropic Ward - Meh
    6. Nothing
    7. ASI - Always Welcome
    8. Nothing
    9. Thought Shield - Nice
    10. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
    11. ASI - Always Welcome
    12. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
    13. Create Thrall - Meh
    Woah, woah, woah... Third level spells... at W5, you get third. Level. SPELLS. How is that nothing?

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfTheRock View Post
    Woah, woah, woah... Third level spells... at W5, you get third. Level. SPELLS. How is that nothing?
    VERY good point! I had completely overlooked spell progression... So now I have created a ready-reckoner

    Code:
    +-------+---------------------------+---------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+---------------------------+
    | Level | Paladin Spell Slots (L/R) | Warlock Spell Slots (S/R) | Mystic Arcanum  | Spells per day (1 s/rest) | Spells per day (2 s/rest) |
    | Pd/Wl | TOTAL 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th | TOTAL 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th | 6th 7th 8th 9th | TOTAL 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th | TOTAL 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th |
    +-------+---------------------------+---------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+---------------------------+
    | --/20 |   -    -   -   -   -   -  |   4    -   -   -   -   4  |  1   1   1   1  |   8    -   -   -   -   8  |  12    -   -   -   -  12  |
    |  1/19 |   -    -   -   -   -   -  |   4    -   -   -   -   4  |  1   1   1   1  |   8    -   -   -   -   8  |  12    -   -   -   -  12  |
    |  2/18 |   2    2   -   -   -   -  |   4    -   -   -   -   4  |  1   1   1   1  |  10    2   -   -   -   8  |  14    2   -   -   -  12  |
    |  3/17 |   3    3   -   -   -   -  |   4    -   -   -   -   4  |  1   1   1   1  |  11    3   -   -   -   8  |  15    3   -   -   -  12  |
    |  4/16 |   3    3   -   -   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   1   1   -  |   9    3   -   -   -   6  |  12    3   -   -   -   9  |
    |  5/15 |   6    4   2   -   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   1   1   -  |  12    4   2   -   -   6  |  15    4   2   -   -   9  |
    |  6/14 |   6    4   2   -   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   1   -   -  |  12    4   2   -   -   6  |  15    4   2   -   -   9  |
    |  7/13 |   7    4   3   -   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   1   -   -  |  13    4   3   -   -   6  |  16    4   3   -   -   9  |
    |  8/12 |   7    4   3   -   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   -   -   -  |  13    4   3   -   -   6  |  16    4   3   -   -   9  |
    |  9/11 |   9    4   3   2   -   -  |   3    -   -   -   -   3  |  1   -   -   -  |  15    4   3   2   -   6  |  18    4   3   2   -   9  |
    | 10/10 |   9    4   3   2   -   -  |   2    -   -   -   -   2  |  -   -   -   -  |  13    4   3   2   -   4  |  15    4   3   2   -   6  |
    | 11/ 9 |  10    4   3   3   -   -  |   2    -   -   -   -   2  |  -   -   -   -  |  14    4   3   3   -   4  |  16    4   3   3   -   6  |
    | 12/ 8 |  10    4   3   3   -   -  |   2    -   -   -   2   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  14    4   3   3   4   -  |  16    4   3   3   6   -  |
    | 13/ 7 |  11    4   3   3   1   -  |   2    -   -   -   2   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  15    4   3   3   5   -  |  17    4   3   3   7   -  |
    | 14/ 6 |  11    4   3   3   1   -  |   2    -   -   2   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  15    4   3   7   1   -  |  17    4   3   9   1   -  |
    | 15/ 5 |  12    4   3   3   2   -  |   2    -   -   2   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  16    4   3   7   2   -  |  18    4   3   9   2   -  |
    | 16/ 4 |  12    4   3   3   2   -  |   2    -   2   -   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  16    4   7   3   2   -  |  18    4   9   3   2   -  |
    | 17/ 3 |  14    4   3   3   3   1  |   2    -   2   -   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  18    4   7   3   3   1  |  20    4   9   3   3   1  |
    | 18/ 2 |  14    4   3   3   3   1  |   2    2   -   -   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  18    8   3   3   3   1  |  20   10   3   3   3   1  |
    | 19/ 1 |  15    4   3   3   3   2  |   1    1   -   -   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  17    6   3   3   3   2  |  18    7   3   3   3   2  |
    | 20/-- |  15    4   3   3   3   2  |   -    -   -   -   -   -  |  -   -   -   -  |  15    4   3   3   3   2  |  15    4   3   3   3   2  |
    +-------+---------------------------+---------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+---------------------------+
    Last edited by Escribblings; 2018-01-01 at 07:19 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    What follows is part of my own comprisons to work out where I am going, and as a future reference too...

    It only covers the Patron and Oath I have selected, so please don't rely on it for anything else.

    I putting it here mainly as a resurce for myself...


    Levels Paladin Oath of Devotion Warlock The Celestial Patron
    -- / 20 Eldritch Master
    1 / 19 Divine Sense
    Lay On Hands
    Ability Score Improvement
    2 / 18 Fighting Style
    Spellcasting (1st Level Spells)
    Divine Smite
    -
    3 / 17 Divine Health
    Sacred Oath (of Devotion)
    • Oath Spells
    • Channel Divinity
      • Sacred Weapon
      • Turn the Unholy
    9th Level Mystic Arcanum
    4 / 16 Ability Score Improvement Ability Score Improvement
    5 / 15 Extra Attack
    2nd Level Spells
    8th Level Mystic Arcanum
    6 / 14 Aura of Protection Celestial Patron
    • Searing Vengeance
    7 / 13 Sacred Oath of Devotion
    • Aura of Devotion
    7th Level Mystic Arcanum
    8 / 12 Ability Score Improvement Ability Score Improvement
    9 / 11 3rd Level Spells 6th Level Mystic Arcanum
    10 / 10 Aura of Courage Celestial Patron
    • Celestial Resilience
    11 / 9 Improved Divine Smite 5th Level Spells
    12 / 8 Ability Score Improvement Ability Score Improvement
    13 / 7 4th Level Spells 4th Level Spells
    14 / 6 Cleansing Touch Celestial Patron
    • Radiant Soul
    15 / 5 Sacred Oath of Devotion
    • Purity of Spirit
    3rd Level Spells
    16 / 4 Ability Score Improvement Ability Score Improvement
    17 / 3 5th Level Spells 2nd Level Spells
    Pact of the Blade Boon
    18 / 2 Aura Improvements Eldritch Invocations
    19 / 1 Ability Score Increase Cantrips
    1st Level Spells
    Otherworldly Patron, The Celestial
    • Bonus Cantrips
    • Healing Light
    20 / -- Sacred Oath of Devotion
    • Holy Nimbus



    Paladin Spells Order of Devotion
    1st Level 2nd Level 3rd Level 4th Level 5th Level
    Bless
    Command
    Compelled Duel
    Cure Wounds
    Detect Evil and Good
    Detect Magic
    Detect Poison and Disease
    Divine Favor
    Heroism
    Protection from Evil and Good
    Purify Food and Drink
    Searing Smite
    Shield of Faith
    Thunderous Smite
    Wrathful Smite
    Ceremony XGtE

    Sanctuary
    Aid
    Branding Smite
    Find Steed
    Lesser Restoration
    Locate Object
    Magic Weapon
    Protection from Poison
    Zone of Truth
    Aura of Vitality
    Blinding Smite
    Create Food and Water
    Crusader's Mantle
    Daylight
    Dispel Magic
    Elemental Weapon
    Magic Circle
    Remove Curse
    Revivify

    Beacon of Hope
    Aura of Life
    Aura of Purity
    Banishment
    Death Ward
    Locate Creature
    Staggering Smite
    Find Greater Steed XGtE

    Freedom of Movement
    Guardian of Faith
    Banishing Smite
    Circle of Power
    Destructive Wave
    Dispel Evil and Good
    Geas
    Raise Dead
    Holy Weapon XGtE

    Commune
    Flame Strike
    Walock Spells The Celestial Patron
    1st Level 2nd Level 3rd Level 4th Level 5th Level
    Armor of Agathys
    Arms of Hadar
    Charm Person
    Comprehend Languages
    Expeditious Retreat
    Hellish Rebuke
    Hex
    Illusory Script
    Protection from Evil and Good
    Unseen Servant
    Witch Bolt

    Cause Fear XGtE

    Cure Wounds
    Guiding Bolt
    Cloud of Daggers
    Crown of Madness
    Darkness
    Enthrall
    Hold Person
    Invisibility
    Mirror Image
    Misty Step
    Ray of Enfeeblement
    Shatter
    Spider Climb
    Suggestion

    Earthbind EE XGtE
    Mind Spike XGtE
    Shadow BladeXGtE

    Flaming Sphere
    Lesser Restoration
    Counterspell
    Dispel Magic
    Fear
    Fly
    Gaseous Form
    Hunger of Hadar
    Hypnotic Pattern
    Magic Circle
    Major Image
    Remove Curse
    Tongues
    Vampiric Touch

    Enemies Abound XGtE
    Thunder Step XGtE
    Summon Lesser Demons XGtE

    Daylight
    Revivify
    Banishment
    Blight
    Dimension Door
    Hallucinatory Terrain

    Charm Monster XGtE
    Elemental Bane EE XGtE
    Shadow of Moil XGtE
    Sickening Radiance XGtE
    Summon Greater Demon XGtE

    Guardian of Faith
    Wall of Fire
    Contact Other Plane
    Dream
    Hold Monster
    Scrying

    Danse Macabre XGtE
    Enervation XGtE
    Far Step XGtE
    Infernal Calling XGtE
    Negative Energy Flood XGtE
    Synaptic Static XGtE
    Wall of Light XGtE

    Flame Strike
    Greater Restoration
    Warlock Cantrips The Celestial Patron and Mystic Arcanum
    Cantrips 6th Level 7th Level 8th Level 9th Level
    Blade Ward
    Chill Touch
    Eldritch Blast
    Friends
    Mage Hand
    Minor Illusion
    Poison Spray
    Prestidigitation
    True Strike

    Booming Blade SCAG
    Green Flame Blade SCAG
    Lightning Lure SCAG
    Sword Burst SCAG
    Create Bonfire EE XGtE
    Frostbite EE XGtE
    Infestation XGtE
    Magic Stone EE XGtE
    Thunderclap EE XGtE
    Toll the Dead XGtE

    Light
    Sacred Flame
    Arcane Gate
    Circle of Death
    Conjure Fey
    Create Undead
    Eyebite
    Flesh to Stone
    Mass Suggestion
    True Seeing

    lnvestiture of Flame EE XGtE
    lnvestiture of Ice EE XGtE
    lnvestiture of Stone EE XGtE
    lnvestiture of Wind EE XGtE
    Mental Prison XGtE
    Scatter XGtE
    Soul Cage XGtE
    Etherealness
    Finger of Death
    Forcecage
    Plane Shift

    Crown of Stars XGtE
    Power Word Pain XGtE
    Demiplane
    Dominate Monster
    Feeblemind
    Glibness
    Power Word Stun

    Maddening Darkness XGtE
    Astral Projection
    Foresight
    Imprisonment
    Power Word Kill
    True Polymorph

    Psychic Scream XGtE
    Eldritch Invocations
    2nd Level 3rd Level 5th Level
    Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Blast)
    Armor of Shadows
    Beast Speech
    Beguiling Influence
    Devil's Sight
    Eldritch Sight
    Eldritch Spear (Eldritch Blast)
    Eyes of the Rune Keeper
    Fiendish Vigor
    Gaze of Two Minds
    Mask of Many Faces
    Mire the Mind
    Misty Visions
    Repelling Blast (Eldritch Blast)
    Theif of Five Fates
    Pact of the Chain
    Voice of the Chain Master
    Gift of the Ever-Living Ones XGtE
    Grasp of Hadar (Eldritch Blast) XGtE
    Lance of Lethargy (Eldritch Blast) XGtE

    Pact of the Tome
    Book of Ancient Secrets
    Aspect of the Moon XGtE
    Pact of the Blade
    Improved Pact Weapon XGtE
    Dreadful Word
    One with Shadows
    Sign of Ill Omen
    Cloak of Flies XGtE
    Gift of the Depths XGtE
    Maddening Hex (Hex Spell or Curse Feature) XGtE
    Tomb of Levistus XGtE

    Pact of the Blade
    Thirsting Blade
    Eldritch Smite XGtE
    7th Level 9th Level 12th Level 15th Level
    Bewitching Whispers
    Sculptor of Flesh
    Ghostly Gaze
    Relentless Hex (Hex Spell or Curse Feature) XGtE
    Trickster's Escape XGtE
    Ascendent Step
    Minions of Chaos
    Otherworldly Leap
    Whispers of the Grave
    Pact of the Blade
    Lifedrinker
    Master of Myriad Forms
    Visions of Distant Realms
    Witch Sight
    Shroud of Shadow XGtE

    Pact of the Chain
    Chains of Carceri


    Now all I have to do is prioritise what I want out of my charcater ;)

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Gotta say, love the reference tables. I really should make similar ones for my own padlock heh

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Right - I think I have this sussed now (I hope)

    Weighing up the pros and cons, L20 (if I ever get that far) is too long to wait for an ASI/Feat. However, ignoring the ASI at 20 will also delay an ASI at an earlier level.

    That being said, I feel I am going to aim for the 11/9 split as suggested above.

    I am not willing to give up Improved Divine Smite for an additional 1d8 to ALL my melee attacks on top of any spell slots expended.

    By going 11/9 over 12/8 I lose 1 ASI/Feat - BUT my 2 Warlock spell slots inrease from level 4 to level 5 AND I gain 1 invocation (and some of those are equivalent to feats).

    Going any higher on the Paladin levels doesn't really gain much in the way of spell slots or slot power, especially as I will be primarily sword and board. And the weakening of the short rest warlock spell slots does not appeal.

    Similarly, I do not feel the Mystic Arcanum and additional Patron features and invocations are a fair exchange for giving up Improved Divine Smite. Although, your opinion may differ.

    Now I'm not naive enough to believe I will ever get to 20, may not even get past 10 - BUT, I see my progression along the lines of...

    P1
    P2
    P2/W1
    P2/W2
    P2/W3
    P3/W3
    P4/W3
    P5/W3
    P6/W3
    P6/W4
    P6/W5
    P6/W6
    P7/W6
    P8/W6
    P9/W6
    P10/W6
    P11/W6
    P11/W7
    P11/W8
    P11/W9

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Escribblings; 2018-01-03 at 08:29 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    If I ever made a Paladin/Warlock, I'd definitely aim for EITHER A) Paladin 11/Warlock 9 OR B) Paladin 13/Warlock 7

    A) If I really, absolutely, wanted those 5th level warlock spells for whatever reason.

    B) If I'm content with having "only" 4th level warlock spells, but also wanted those 4th level paladin spells. Plus, Divine Smite already caps at 4th level spell slot, so warlock's 5th level spell slots aren't really necessary in that regard.

    But, at first - at 5th level, I'd probably go for Paladin 4/Warlock 1. Warlock gains quite a bit even from 1st level, such as those cantrips which "bandaid" the lack of extra attack for a while longer.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-01-03 at 09:30 AM.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    So,

    "<game that I dislike> will break down when people try to optimize it, whereas this will never happen in <game that I like>."

    I think I've heard this argument now for every conceivable D&D-related pair of <game>s.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Interesting... I had missed the cap on divine smite...

    Question...

    Do you think a 2 level dip into fighter for the action surge is worth it? That and second wind are both short rest features and I would get a second fighting style...

    Thinking 2/11/7 And taking the 2 levels in fighter first.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    OK - on reflection the fighter dip isn't worth it...

    But I'm still weighing up the the options for levelling up to 5.

    Whatever happens I'm starting at P1 for the armour proficiency...

    Going sword and board with longsword.

    Rolls are 10, 10, 14, 15, 17, 18.

    Var Human gives 2 +1's so I have

    Str - 18 (+4)
    Dex - 14 (+2)
    Con - 16 (+3)
    Int - 10 (+0)
    Wis - (+0)
    Cha - 18 (+4)

    So to start with I have AC18 and a 1d8+4 to hit

    Taking a 2nd level of Paladin gives divine smite and 2 long rest slots with which to use it.

    Taking a 3rd level of Paladin gives a 3rd spell slot and for 1 minute per short rest an extra +4 (cha) to attacks.

    Whereas taking the 1st level of Warlock adds 1 short rest spell slot and allows cantrips such as Green Flame Blade which adds +4 damage (cha) to a nearby enemy to the one attacked..

    Going 2 levels deep into Warlock adds a 2nd short rest slot, and invocations.

    Going 3 levels deep gives the pact weapon, the improved pact weapon invocation which adds +1 to attack and damage, and the 2 short rest spell slots increase to level 2.

    Whichever way I go to 5, the cantrip Green Flame Blade does an additional 1d8 to both the initial target and one close by. Helping relieve the fact that I have yet to get an extra attack.

    P2/W2 gives an attack value of 1d8+5 with a +1 to attack and 4 damage to a second enemy per round, with 2 long and 2 short rest slots to smite with, which is 6 smites a day with 1 short rest, and 8 with 2.

    P4 gives an attack value of 1d8+4, only 3 long rest slots to smite with and no cantrips. The only saving grace is 1 per short rest +4 to attacks for 1 minute.

    So I *think* I am going to stick to
    P2 - P2/W3 - P6/W3 - P6/W6 - P11/W6 - P11/W9

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Your way of thinking seems much less circular then mine but you sussed out all the points the same way I did when I chose 11/9. 5th level slots might be a minor waste for smiting but hold monster can make for some fun times. And for AoA or hex all day if you roll that way
    Last edited by SkylarkR6; 2018-01-03 at 06:48 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post
    But I'm still weighing up the the options for levelling up to 5.

    Taking a 3rd level of Paladin gives a 3rd spell slot and for 1 minute per short rest an extra +4 (cha) to attacks.

    Going 2 levels deep into Warlock adds a 2nd short rest slot, and invocations.

    Going 3 levels deep gives the pact weapon, the improved pact weapon invocation which adds +1 to attack and damage, and the 2 short rest spell slots increase to level 2.

    Whichever way I go to 5, the cantrip Green Flame Blade does an additional 1d8 to both the initial target and one close by. Helping relieve the fact that I have yet to get an extra attack.

    P2/W2 gives an attack value of 1d8+5 with a +1 to attack and 4 damage to a second enemy per round, with 2 long and 2 short rest slots to smite with, which is 6 smites a day with 1 short rest, and 8 with 2.

    P4 gives an attack value of 1d8+4, only 3 long rest slots to smite with and no cantrips. The only saving grace is 1 per short rest +4 to attacks for 1 minute.

    So I *think* I am going to stick to
    P2 - P2/W3 - P6/W3 - P6/W6 - P11/W6 - P11/W9
    I think the comparison of
    P3/W1 --> P4/W1 vs P2/W2 -> P2/W3 is of more relevance than P4 vs P2/W2.

    Doing such a comparison depends on knowing what your first second Feat (you missed this in your comparison?) would be spent on.

    Edit: I forgot they were a Var Human

    Level Paladin 2 / Warlock 1 / Paladin 2 Paladin 2 / Warlock 3
    4th Sacred Oath (of Devotion)
    • Oath Spells
    • Channel Divinity
      • Sacred Weapon
      • Turn the Unholy
    +1 1st level spell slot per long rest
    Eldritch Invocations
    • ________
    • ________
    4th +0 attack, 1d8+4 & 4
    9 1st level smites if 2 short rests
    +0 attack, 1d8+4 & 4
    8 1st level smites if 2 short rests
    5th Feat (+2 Cha or better)
    Sacred Oath (of Devotion)
    • Oath Spells
    • Channel Divinity
      • Sacred Weapon
      • Turn the Unholy
    +1 1st level spell slot per long rest
    2nd Level Spells
    Pact of the Blade Boon
    Eldritch Invocations
    • Improved Pact Weapon
    • ________
    5th +1 attack, 2d8+5 & 1d8+5
    9 1st level smites if 2 short rests
    +1 attack, 2d8+5 & 1d8+4
    2 1st level & 6 2nd level smites
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-01-04 at 03:35 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Apologies.

    My character is Var Human, we have a house rule that the feat isn't granted until L4...

    So I'll be getting 1 feat at L4 anyway.

    But it's still a valid point...

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post
    Apologies.

    My character is Var Human, we have a house rule that the feat isn't granted until L4...

    So I'll be getting 1 feat at L4 anyway.

    But it's still a valid point...
    Sorry, I forgot you were Var Human. I guess I meant to talk about your 2nd Feat. Aka the one you get at Paladin 4 (whether that be at Pal 4, Pal 2/War 1/Pal 2, or Pal 2/War 3/Pal 2).
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-01-04 at 03:34 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    I've beeen looking through the feats and tying myself up in knots as there is some crossover with invocations or class abilities.

    That said, I'm probably going to take spell sniper at L4, and then elemental adept at P4. My plan is to take Fire - and then negate the most resisted damage in the game.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Escribblings View Post
    I've beeen looking through the feats and tying myself up in knots as there is some crossover with invocations or class abilities.

    That said, I'm probably going to take spell sniper at L4, and then elemental adept at P4. My plan is to take Fire - and then negate the most resisted damage in the game.
    If Elemental Adept is your P4 feat/ASI, then Pal 2/War 3 is the better path to 5th over Pal 2/War 1/Pal 2. The benefit from Improved Pact Weapon will be more valuable than the benefit from Elemental Adept.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2018-01-04 at 11:40 PM.

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