The Big Switch

[Arameus]

BE NOT AFRAID, FOR THOU ART A MAIN CHARACTER.

Ansom won't die. I have plenty of other ideas besides that, but that maxim up there is as strong a law of plot as any other. If there's a half-hour left in the damn movie and the Good Guy is strapped to a chair in the middle of a mine field with rifles aimed at his head, he'll escape. This maxim grows weaker and weaker the closer you get to the end, but we've barely left the paddock here. Ansom's going nowhere.

Ag seems to have pre-empted me on a lot of points, and done a good job of it, too. You could say that he performed swimmingly. Since he's a man-fish. *crickets*

*Ahem,* my own words being quoted reminded me though, I can think of five, count em, five movies off the top of my head where that sub don't make it. It never makes it. K-19, U571, Below, Das Boot, that generic one whose name I can't remember... The Red October is the only token exception.
That's a pretty specific trope!

[jindra34]

BE NOT AFRAID, FOR THOU ART A MAIN CHARACTER.

Ansom won't die. I have plenty of other ideas besides that, but that maxim up there is as strong a law of plot as any other. If there's a half-hour left in the damn movie and the Good Guy is strapped to a chair in the middle of a mine field with rifles aimed at his head, he'll escape. This maxim grows weaker and weaker the closer you get to the end, but we've barely left the paddock here. Ansom's going nowhere.

Ag seems to have pre-empted me on a lot of points, and done a good job of it, too. You could say that he performed swimmingly. Since he's a man-fish. *crickets*

*Ahem,* my own words being quoted reminded me though, I can think of five, count em, five movies off the top of my head where that sub has don't make it. It never makes it. K-19, U571, Below, Das Boot, that generic one whose name I can't remember... The Red October is the only token exception.
That's a pretty specific trope!

Ok stop anticipating Erf to follow the cliched approaches for writing. Its not likely to keep continuing.

[Scientivore]

Parson seems to be more like "us" then the Erf-worlders. He seems to have a certain sense of decency or likeableness unlike Stanley. He seems to have a genuine talent for wargaming which makes him the perfect warlord on Erf, not his "real" world or ours, but Erf. Yet he is very flawed in some ways. He does not care about himself or his "real" world or even Erf. He seems to only care about "gaming". Most readers can't respect him as a "person" because of this. Yet most readers do "care" about Erf and its characters. So it seems only natural to assume that one of the main conflicts for the character of Parson is for Parson face this character flaw of dissasociating from everything but gaming. That is that for the character to grow in the story he has to grow outside of gaming, to become a "better" or "worse" person. He can't get better at gaming. The story assumes he's already perfect at that.

I agree!

...

Oh wait, I don't just post that. NM, move along, nothing to see here.

[Arameus]

I thought I felt your presence... No, your stench... Like a fresh wheel of brie... So you finally agree with someone. You agree with the Fishman. Don't push it; I'm a known Scientivorevore!

I don't see why people get so angry about me doing this. Actually, I really do! Erfworld is a brilliantly deep and complex world that has thrown curveball after curveball. And for me to use some of the oldest cliches in history to make plot assumptions really seems to tick people off. I find it pretty funny.

I would never question the brilliance of this beautiful comic. These strips should be in the Library of Congress and the Louvre at the same time. But behind the art is a definite science, and a big part of the science is tropes, cliches, copouts, and fallbacks. That said, I would never resort to using them to declare plot points, at least with any certainty, unless all other options seemed to me to be illogical, unreasonable, or simply very bad ideas for the story.

That said, how many of you think Ansom is really going to die? That it wouldn't be a complete waste of his character? The only possible way it could happen is if Rob wanted those Arkenpliers delivered to Stanley in very short order, and I can't see that being the case unless I've far underestimated the length of the chapter. And if he does, I'll give you all the sunken submarines in the lake by which the wounded dwagons are hidden. God knows they're there, only about one in six makes it across.

And I'm not above pointing out my own inconsistencies, and even deliberate boop-ups: Die-hards and astute readers will know the exact location from which I pulled the big, bold maxim of my last post, and those that do may get the joke upon a reexamination of the context.

[ChowGuy]

Opera is littered with instances where the hero doesn't get the girl. Mimi dies. Butterfly commits suicide. Violetta dies. Susannah is killed.

Brunhilde burns herself on Siegfried's funeral pyre.
Oh, wait. Seigfried isn't allowed to be seen as "The Hero" of that tale anymore, what with getting [re-]pigeonholed by that mess in the 1940's.

Yes but opera and myth has it's tropes and it's archetypes. The soprano dies a lot.

Okay, good point. Even Da Wabbit gets killed in Opera. sooo... literature then:

Quasimodo doesn't get Esmeralda.
Er.. no good. Quasimodo is "ugly" and "mishapen" so can't be "The Hero." The Hero has to be Pheobus, the dashing handsome officer who'd rather see her hanged (for his own murder) then bother to show up in court and say "Hey wait, I'm not dead, and she wasn't the one who stabbed me in the back while I was trying to seduce her."

D'artagnan doesn't get Constance, she dies instead at Milady's hand just as he arrives to save her. Hard to argue with that one.

Romeo doesn't get Juliette. They both die.

Good storytelling very rarely boils down to trivail plot stereotypes - you learn no life lessons from that. Hack story telling on the other hand, that just borrows from classics to make "feel good" cartoons and movies... (Well, OK, the Romeo and Juliette one was already something a classical stereotype, but certainly not the "good guy gets the girl" one it starts out like.)

But I hope at least that Rob and Jamie are a cut above that. That's why I suspect that the notion that "Stanley is Teh Evil" just because he's abrasive, politically incorrect, and is down to depending on troops that are stereotypically "damned and damnable" while Ansom represents "All that is Pure and Good" just because he is the Handsome Knight in Shining Armor whose troops look like cute stuffed animals is just that - a notion deliberately crafted by the author/artist to misguide the readers just so they can set some stereotypes on their ear. Particularly as, when Parson (who should represent our eyes on the world) seems to base his own evaluation that "Obviously, we are [the Bad Guys]) on just such stereotypes himself.

If he were to "switch sides" based on that view, then it would be far more interesting, to me, to see him come face-to-face with the fact that he has merely traded one arrogant all-conquering Overlord for another as bad or perhaps worse, and thus the reality of working from such black-and-white preconceptions sinks in.

As for Stanley's minions, Sizemore is despondent about his relatively unappreciated task, and fears that he will not survive the coming battle; but that's not the same as saying he does it only out of fear. I suspect that, had he felt that way, he could have sought asylum among the Hippie-mancers of the Magic Kingdom rather then return with Wanda. Nor have I seen anyone else shirk or complain of their "oppression." in GK. Even Misty, whom everybody seems to feel deserves their sympathy, seems not only willing but delighted to stay and help Parson. It's not just because she's afradid if she doesn't she'll be punished - rather the opposite, she tells Wanda "Sorry Lady" only because she realizes that her doing so jeopardizes her far greater role in maintaining the Trimancer link-up.

On the other hand, she almost certainly will be executed along with everyone else there if and when the coalition wipes Gobwin Knob from the map, simply because that's how 4X games are: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate. Whether or not there are "Alignments" or "Good and Evil" as a basis, if the fundamental concepts of war-gaming are the "reality" underlying Erf, then that must be part of that reality as well.

[Jimorian]

A tangent to the current discussion, but one that I think is an interesting interface between plot mechanics and world mechanics.

1.) What happens if one side DOES win? In a world where days are based on turns, what if there's nobody on one side to declare their turn over? Does everything then become stuck in time? Or does everything and everybody just disappear, or reset to a new game start?

2.) Do the world rules allow for the development of a "third" side in this conflict? If Parson can get around his problem with dismissal, can he decide that nobody is right, and set up shop for himself with dissatisfied parties from the others? Would a third player turn manifest itself, or would he be stuck moving during one of the other turns, and what would that say about what side he's really on?

Interesting thoughts coming out of this comic.

Edit: Just thought of 3.) Since the very world physics are based on 2-sided conflict, that would tend to rule out a peace pact as well, though there's probably nothing technically wrong with both sides giving the move order: "We mind our own business this turn".

[Arameus]

Quasimodo doesn't get Esmeralda.
Er.. no good. Quasimodo is "ugly" and "mishapen" so can't be "The Hero." The Hero has to be Pheobus, the dashing handsome officer who'd rather see her hanged (for his own murder) then bother to show up in court and say "Hey wait, I'm not dead, and she wasn't the one who stabbed me in the back while I was trying to seduce her."

D'artagnan doesn't get Constance, she dies instead at Milady's hand just as he arrives to save her. Hard to argue with that one.

Romeo doesn't get Juliette. They both die.

I call a major foul. First, you suggest sarcastically, to imply it's that way I think, that Quasimodo can't be the here because he's not dashing and heroic. And yet here I've been arguing the whole time that an obese, girl-faced blob of low self-esteem is our stories hero. Failure.

After that, you reference classic tragedies to evidence the likelihood of everything going South in Erfworld. This is apples and oranges. More appropriately, it's apples and crab apples. The tragic endings of these stories don't affect my thinking any more than JFK's tragic death does, because it's not related to our story in any way.

It's one thing to argue against me and quite another to ignore my argument entirely. This is not a matter of how Ansom looks or if Stanley is a jerk or not. If you can't see that Ansom and Parson are essentially good and Stanley is essentially evil, you either have inhumanly abysmal cognitive function or your just ignoring what you know you can't disprove, whether it be my assertions , your own knowledge, of the comic, or both.

Misty was delighted to help Parson not because she is content in her role as a subhuman, but that Parson is the only one that ever, to our knowledge, treated her as more than a slave.

And just how would Wanda have responded upon finding out that Sizemore deserted when she went to pick him up? Frightfully, I would imagine.

All I can see coming out of this is yet another scenario where the soundly-rebutted opponent will admit his own rebuffing, and then continue to make the exact same arguments again, word for word. Do not do this; I just got out of one of these vicious cycles, I'm hardly in any mood for another one, and two can the game of simply ignoring the other, which I shall certainly not hesitate to do should we determine that such a cycle is indeed occurring. Wakamarisu ka?

Jimor: Although I can certainly see peace being as natural a state in Erfworld as war (just as it is in our world), but you raise an extremely good point about turn rotation in a conflict with more than two sides! That's a dynamite question, thank you so much! It's possible that it could occur linearly like this: Side1, Side2, Side3, S1, S2, S3, &tc... Aside from that, I really have no idea! I'd certainly like to hear a certain person's take on this... Do I smell brie?

[ag30476]

BE NOT AFRAID, FOR THOU ART A MAIN CHARACTER.Dude your like my nighmare of a f

Dude did you know your avatar is like a nightmarish Wilford Brimley?

[ag30476]

Ok stop anticipating Erf to follow the cliched approaches for writing. Its not likely to keep continuing.

Stop not anticipating anything...it's like being a continually surprised person who suffers from short-terrm memory disorder...er nevermind. What are you taking?

[ag30476]

Oh wait, I don't just post that. NM, move along, nothing to see here.

Shhh...as long as we don't scare the dwagons, no one will mind.

[Arameus]

Yes, this is a picture of Brimley after he became a member of the shambling undead and began encouraging people to develope and abuse diabeetus to fuel the nonliving horde.

[ag30476]

Brunhilde burns herself on Siegfried's funeral pyre.
Oh, wait. Seigfried isn't allowed to be seen as "The Hero" of that tale anymore, what with getting [re-]pigeonholed by that mess in the 1940's.

Okay, good point. Even Da Wabbit gets killed in Opera. sooo... literature then:

What's opera doc? Even the waskily wabbit breaks the 4th wall, 5th wall even, with ""Well, what did you expect in an opera? A happy ending?" Dude I need what you're on.

Quasimodo doesn't get Esmeralda.
Er.. no good. Quasimodo is "ugly" and "mishapen" so can't be "The Hero." The Hero has to be Pheobus, the dashing handsome officer who'd rather see her hanged (for his own murder) then bother to show up in court and say "Hey wait, I'm not dead, and she wasn't the one who stabbed me in the back while I was trying to seduce her."

Is this the Disney cartoon or the snooty French version?

D'artagnan doesn't get Constance, she dies instead at Milady's hand just as he arrives to save her. Hard to argue with that one.

Is this the book, the 70's miniseries with Michael York, or the snooty French version, or the really awful version with Charlie Sheen?

Romeo doesn't get Juliette. They both die.

F' Shakespeare...I mean Bacon and Marlowe and Donne and Johnson and Marvell...f'ing English effete enlightenment hacks

Good storytelling very rarely boils down to trivail plot stereotypes - you learn no life lessons from that. Hack story telling on the other hand, that just borrows from classics to make "feel good" cartoons and movies...

F'ing Chuck Jones.

(Well, OK, the Romeo and Juliette one was already something a classical stereotype, but certainly not the "good guy gets the girl" one it starts out like.)

F'ing prologues. F'ing "The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
And the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;"

But I hope at least that Rob and Jamie are a cut above that. That's why I suspect that the notion that "Stanley is Teh Evil" just because he's abrasive, politically incorrect, and is down to depending on troops that are stereotypically "damned and damnable" while Ansom represents "All that is Pure and Good" just because he is the Handsome Knight in Shining Armor whose troops look like cute stuffed animals is just that - a notion deliberately crafted by the author/artist to misguide the readers just so they can set some stereotypes on their ear. Particularly as, when Parson (who should represent our eyes on the world) seems to base his own evaluation that "Obviously, we are [the Bad Guys]) on just such stereotypes himself.

OK, Rob, Jamies, avoid all clasic WB cartoons, or references to Teutonic myths, anything French, or Shakespear plays, and any TV miniseries that has references to Michael York of Jeremy Irons. And above all, avoid anything with Charlie Sheen.

That's why I suspect that the notion that "Stanley is Teh Evil" just because he's abrasive, politically incorrect, and is down to depending on troops that are stereotypically "damned and damnable" while Ansom represents "All that is Pure and Good" just because he is the Handsome Knight in Shining Armor whose troops look like cute stuffed animals is just that - a notion deliberately crafted by the author/artist to misguide the readers just so they can set some stereotypes on their ear. Particularly as, when Parson (who should represent our eyes on the world) seems to base his own evaluation that "Obviously, we are [the Bad Guys]) on just such stereotypes himself.

If he were to "switch sides" based on that view, then it would be far more interesting, to me, to see him come face-to-face with the fact that he has merely traded one arrogant all-conquering Overlord for another as bad or perhaps worse, and thus the reality of working from such black-and-white preconceptions sinks in.

As for Stanley's minions, Sizemore is despondent about his relatively unappreciated task, and fears that he will not survive the coming battle; but that's not the same as saying he does it only out of fear. I suspect that, had he felt that way, he could have sought asylum among the Hippie-mancers of the Magic Kingdom rather then return with Wanda. Nor have I seen anyone else shirk or complain of their "oppression." in GK. Even Misty, whom everybody seems to feel deserves their sympathy, seems not only willing but delighted to stay and help Parson. It's not just because she's afradid if she doesn't she'll be punished - rather the opposite, she tells Wanda "Sorry Lady" only because she realizes that her doing so jeopardizes her far greater role in maintaining the Trimancer link-up.

On the other hand, she almost certainly will be executed along with everyone else there if and when the coalition wipes Gobwin Knob from the map, simply because that's how 4X games are: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate. Whether or not there are "Alignments" or "Good and Evil" as a basis, if the fundamental concepts of war-gaming are the "reality" underlying Erf, then that must be part of that reality as well.

Dude, I had 4 beers, 3 glasses of wine, 1 shot of vodka in 2 1/2 hours, struck out with 2 women. I still need what you're on.

[ag30476]

Yes, this is a picture of Brimley after he became a member of the shambling undead and began encouraging people to develope and abuse diabeetus to fuel the nonliving horde.

It's the Right Thing to Do

[Scientivore]

Jimor: Although I can certainly see peace being as natural a state in Erfworld as war (just as it is in our world), but you raise an extremely good point about turn rotation in a conflict with more than two sides! That's a dynamite question, thank you so much! It's possible that it could occur linearly like this: Side1, Side2, Side3, S1, S2, S3, &tc... Aside from that, I really have no idea! I'd certainly like to hear a certain person's take on this... Do I smell brie?

I agree. Time's a strange enough thing in the "Stupidworld" that Parson comes from but I think that it's even stranger in Erfworld. The time between your turns in a multiplayer TBS game is very flexible, expanding and contracting with the number of players and even with the complexity of each player's turn. It would have to be that way in Erfworld too since Move is apparently a measure of distance per day. Charlie referred to the war between GK and the Alliance as "the great western conflict", implying that there's much more to the world. Rob and Jamie are only depicting two turns per day because that's all that matters for the story with only two sides interacting...and it could work that way in Erfworld as a world for the same reason.

The way that I picture it, each capital would be in a group that alternates turns each day because of having units in Move proximity with each other, running simultaneously with the turns of other, separate groups of capitals. If the Tardy Elves ever showed up then GK and the Alliance would experience three turns per day (since Ansom already gave up and dissolved the alliance with them). If all of their alliances were suddenly dissolved then their capitals would experience many turns per day until they moved apart (or croaked each other) and got further away from each other than their Move.

[ag30476]

Can't I just torture the prisoner again? Please master.

"Torturing the prisoner" as I write this IYKWIMAITYD

Come on people, that was a soft lob

[Arameus]

The whole time 'n' space thing is just really weird. In our world, it's been specifically stated that God does not play dice with the universe. Compare that to Erfworld, a big ol' board game, and everything is just beyond our ken.

So let me try and confirm this: What you suggest is that a five-side royal-rumble conflict's day would seem to be a lot, lot, longer than a two-side conflict's on the other side of the continent, even though their days and nights would still sync up due to, I don't know, space and time warping to compensate and keep it synced up? Since Erfworld's citizens don't apparently age, since I've seen no old people, or at least age by the turn, this seems to be a plausible system for their turn-based world. That's really weird, if that's the case, since it means that people who have been constantly embroiled in many-sided battles could have experienced several times the 'actual time' of units that have only been in standard conflicts or at peace for the same number of turns.

And if the day gets really long for all the sides to go, does night warp in a similar fashion or would it matter since there's no action to accommodate?

This should have it's own thread.

[Lamech]

Maybe time is like in a computer game were the more of your opponents moves you can see the longer your off turn time takes. So if Stanley can see the eastern powers fighting he might have a lot of time after Ansom's turn before nightfall, while Ansom's forces have very little time at between the end of their turn and nightfall.

[Arkenputtyknife]

In our world, it's been specifically stated that God does not play dice with the universe.

The statement has also been specifically refuted: “Not only does God play dice, sometimes He throws them where we can't see them.” (Hawking, if I recall correctly.)

But yes, real-world space and time are weird, so weird that most sci-fi simply ignores the issue and reverts to classical physics. (Warp drives, hyperspace jumps, and so forth all implicitly postulate that the universe is fundamentally Galilean.) By comparison, game physics—even with the warping of time being suggested—is pretty simple.

[Arameus]

Good discussion, but there is a thread specifically for this. Let's return to the issue at hand.