Base class 3.5

[ZamielVanWeber]

Assuming you're willing to put in the work: Artificer, hands down. It's the class that saw the optimisation ceiling and decided to use their Retain Essence ability on it.

I would be psionic artificer above it. The fact that dorjes go to up 9th is amazing and StP erudite defines all divine and arcane spells as powers so you can just craft whatever you want from 3 strong lists.

[j!nx]

so the conclusion is....

[flappeercraft]

I agree on the fact that metamagic is more powerful by a longshot than metapsionics which does ive an advantage to wizards and sorcerers. However, having every spell in your spell list is just too much for that. I think that StP Erudite wins but Wizard/Sorcerer being right behind.

[WeaselGuy]

Hey, someone let me know when this devolves into an argument on which class is more powerful, a Sorcerer due to spontaneity, and a Wizard, due to lack thereof.

[OldTrees1]

so the conclusion is....

Psionic Artificer with access to StP
Psionic Artificer starts with 3 fold access and early access to the casting in the game. They already can incorporate either metamagic or meta psionics into their items. With access to StP they can even choose to make 9th level wands (via making 9th level psionic wands of a StP converted spell)


Basically everything good Sr Gaspar Livin says about Wizards and everything good I said about Psions is wrapped up in the neat Psionic Artificer package.

[j!nx]

Hold on... you're telling me fighter's not the strongest class? But it gets 11 bonus feats!!!

HAHA that's what my friend said when he asked me

[Morcleon]

Psionic Artificer with access to StP
Psionic Artificer starts with 3 fold access and early access to the casting in the game. They already can incorporate either metamagic or meta psionics into their items. With access to StP they can even choose to make 9th level wands (via making 9th level psionic wands of a StP converted spell)


Basically everything good Sr Gaspar Livin says about Wizards and everything good I said about Psions is wrapped up in the neat Psionic Artificer package.

Not only this, but Psionic Artificer gets this all by default, so the feats and gold that a sorcerer would spend would be able to be used elsewhere.

Besides, psionics gets much easier action economy, either by repeatedly manifesting Twin/Linked/Repeat Synchronicity, or by augmenting Extended Temporal Acceleration.

[weckar]

so the conclusion is....

Wait, you're honestly expecting consensus on this?

[Lazymancer]

over the weekend I was asked a question of " out of every base class in all 3.5 books what is the most powerful as in if you could only choose one base class to 20th level "? assuming the "base" class would be any class that has 20 levels and no pre requisites, now I know this is not a simple question because there's always the questions like well what's the circumstance or the scenarios so on so forth, I wanted to know what the fellow play grounders thought because I honestly don't know, your opinions? I just told him wizard to subdue the question but im sure there might be something better, your thoughts?

Druid. It is strong out-of-box, it is resistant to nerfing, it is strong with minor optimization, it gets stronger if you optimize.


Wizard needs to be played right, have access to resources, and not be messed with by GM.

CStP Erudite also needs be played right and have access to spells. Being less reliant on GM fiat is counterbalanced by staying one spell-level behind and not getting 9th-level spells (only generic psionic powers).

Artificer is the pinnacle of Wizardry - you need to be even more careful and frugal with your resources to make things work.

Archivist is similar to Wizard, except it gets more suspicion from GM, when it tries to go off the reservation and learn some obscure domain-only spells.

[eggynack]

Wait, you're honestly expecting consensus on this?

Yeah, I wouldn't even necessarily expect internal consensus from an individual person. People are giving answers, but those answers tend to have a lot of unstated premises, and I'd expect a lot of those answers to change with altered premises. Like, I think a lot of people are assuming high optimization and high level, but it's not like those premises were ever stated. We're explicitly talking about taking a class up to 20, but that doesn't necessarily mean ignoring the path there, and there definitely wasn't a stated optimization level at all. People saying something like StP erudite or artificer might well be making those kinds of assumptions, and people saying something like druid might well be making the inverse assumptions, a more restrictive, low to mid level, low to mid optimization environment.

As was implied in the OP, the answer is, "It depends, and it depends on a lot." Put down sufficiently rigorous assumptions and you'll probably at least get each person with a solid internal power ranking (depending on that person's knowledge of the classes in question), but, of course, you're still not gonna get a broad consensus. It's a tricky question at the outset, and no assumptions will ever be rigorous enough that everyone will read and interpret them the same way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Basically, any class in the game can be optimized to the point that the system falls apart if you try hard enough.

[emeraldstreak]

Dude, I know who he is. It creates several topics in the BR community. Virtually all BR Mages (Wizards or Sorcerers) use Lord Drako's build as a match.

I think he's too arrogant and stupid. But not everything he says is not true.

It's not wrong but it often relies on 3rd party material.

[j!nx]

so its just coming down to personal preference.. I just figured someone that the ultimate build but it makes sense, it would just be arguing opinions I guess

[The_Jette]

The strongest character in the game is obviously a halfling VoP Monk, who specializes in throwing rocks. Duh. I mean, just think of all the rocks there are in the world. Infinite ammo, ftw! And, rocks don't have a gp value, so you're not breaking your vow.

[Inevitability]

so its just coming down to personal preference.. I just figured someone that the ultimate build but it makes sense, it would just be arguing opinions I guess

Not completely. People disagree over whether it's the wizard, StP erudite, psion, druid, or (psionic) artificer, but there's consensus that all of those are stronger than the soulknife, and no one in their right mind would seriously suggest soulknives are the strongest 3.5 class.

Personal preference partially dictates someone's opinion, but it's not just 'arguing opinions'. There's sensible and objective points to be made about the power levels of classes, it just happens to be that the traditional ways of determining power fall apart at high levels.

[Morphic tide]

Depends on the situation. Not counting variant classes or the implications of their existence, this is my list:

If you are following strict WBL and have nigh infinite preparation time, Artificer wins outright because it can, eventually, create an item of infinite use Wish, or at least Limited Wish. Automatically getting every crafting feat means it's feat taxes are very few, and being able to make spells of CLs 2 lower than found on any list, with access to every list, means it can make utility spells with little or no CL scaling, like Wish and Limited Wish, at considerably lower costs.

At full TO, it's Sorcerer due to having better use of shenanigans as a base class than any other, as it can use Psychic Reformation better than Wizards due to Spells Known being a valid target, letting them use Psychic Reformation as a list-preparing mechanic for what they can cast that day, picking a sizable list of spells they can use in any slot, giving them a serious leg up on Wizards, who need far more complicated things to get every spell on the list with Wizard 20. Arcane Fusion is also able to let them mess with the action economy quite a bit better than Wizards.

At lower op or with a moderately hostile DM, Druid works wonders due to spontaneous summoning, 4+int skill points and Wild Shape. Animal Companion is a welcome bonus. The Divine Caster thing also makes it harder to be screwed up. If you have 14 Wisdom at level 1, you're good to go as a Druid. Even if you have a Wisdom penalty, Druids have a class feature that can be t3 entirely on its own. And another class feature that can be t4 entirely on its own.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Psionic artificer with Chameleon Crafting, perhaps? Put any 9th-level spell into a dorje, stuff like that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

so its just coming down to personal preference.. I just figured someone that the ultimate build but it makes sense, it would just be arguing opinions I guess

I mean, the "ultimate build" exists in the form of Pun-Pun, and the final record was achievable I think as a level 1 Kobold Paladin? If I recall correctly...

• You make a DC 25 Knowledge (The Planes) check to summon Pazuzu, who offers you a Wish in exchange for falling. Anyone can do this, I think, but Paladins don't have their wishes corrupted.
• You ask for a Candle of Invocation and use it to summon an Efreeti to grant him three Wishes.
• (At this point you've basically won already, as you can use the Efreeti to wish for more Candles of Invocation to summon more Efreeti to get more Candles...)
• You use your three Wishes to transfer yourself to the Astral Plane, to Gate in a Sarrukah (Serpent Kingdoms), and command it to give you its Manipulate Form extraordinary ability.
• Because a Kobold is a "scaled one," you can use Manipulate Form to make up any ability you want and grant it to yourself. People have worked out a variety of ways to hit arbitrarily high... everything, really, but that's not super-important, because you can give yourself an ability that says "I win."

[WeaselGuy]

I mean, the "ultimate build" exists in the form of Pun-Pun, and the final record was achievable I think as a level 1 Kobold Paladin? If I recall correctly...

• You make a DC 25 Knowledge (The Planes) check to summon Pazuzu, who offers you a Wish in exchange for falling. Anyone can do this, I think, but Paladins don't have their wishes corrupted.
• You ask for a Candle of Invocation and use it to summon an Efreeti to grant him three Wishes.
• (At this point you've basically won already, as you can use the Efreeti to wish for more Candles of Invocation to summon more Efreeti to get more Candles...)
• You use your three Wishes to transfer yourself to the Astral Plane, to Gate in a Sarrukah (Serpent Kingdoms), and command it to give you its Manipulate Form extraordinary ability.
• Because a Kobold is a "scaled one," you can use Manipulate Form to make up any ability you want and grant it to yourself. People have worked out a variety of ways to hit arbitrarily high... everything, really, but that's not super-important, because you can give yourself an ability that says "I win."

I've never seen this done as a Paladin before... but I'm curious about something. How exactly is a Paladin's Wish incorruptible?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've never seen this done as a Paladin before... but I'm curious about something. How exactly is a Paladin's Wish incorruptible?

I think it has something to do with Pazuzu's specific deal; he likes corrupting Paladins enough that he won't mess up their wishes or something. Sorry, I don't have my books on-hand to check and I could only find the Divine Minion Wizard/Master of Many Forms version of the build online.

[The_Jette]

Teleport? Investiture of the Orthon.

Sorcerer/Wizard to top.

Also, to be fair, Investiture of Orthon has an evil descriptor, meaning good casters won't even cast it, and even neutral casters need to be careful to not cast it too much, since they'll eventually need to make an alignment change for too many evil actions.

[Lorddenorstrus]

This entire thread is basically derailing into another Drako classic. Even if this guy claims he isn't him... he's portraying the exact same issues as Drako making it equally a waste of everyones time.

@Sr Gaspar Livin; Your command of the English language one isn't on the level necessary to be having rules debates. Also from all the mistakes you're making. We're seeing more heavy translation errors with the source books you're using.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

This entire thread is basically derailing into another Drako classic. Even if this guy claims he isn't him... he's portraying the exact same issues as Drako making it equally a waste of everyones time.

WTF Talking about this guy again. It's so boring.

I will not comment more here. Later.

[j!nx]

im so confused who drako is lol,

[Lorddenorstrus]

im so confused who drako is lol,

He's a poster who's A;Brazilian, they used translated books so as most know not everything makes it over during translation.... B; posted about how sorcerers were supreme and Wizards were weaker and then attempted in multiple ways to cheat his "sorcerer supreme" build. He riled up the whole forum .. (People here really don't like it when you try to attack their wizard constructs.) and eventually was banned for his actions.. and then has come back.. multiple times.. with multiple accounts repeatedly being banned. If you'd like I'm sure someone bookmarked all of the threads. I'd have to dig through the forum for them I didn't.

Anyway if you read enough of Drakos posts.. you get a pattern in speech, attitude and certain ticks.. like the thought process of a weather spell negating all divine spells.. (That was a favorite) This guy here he displayed a ton of the signs that flag another Drako account. Giants rules forbid multiple accounts and once you're banned.. you're banned.

[Thunder999]

Which part is outside the bounds of wish? Create a magical item and create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp are within the bounds of the spell. Is a 25,000 gp spellbook not enough? Do you need more spells to become more powerful with 1/3 of an item when the other examples are ripping and tearing from most other classes in the game, barely touching their own class features?

At 50gp/page (from the rules for selling spellbooks), you could only get 500 pages for a 25,000gp, there's well over 1000 spells in the various 3.5 books, and at 1 page per spell level this is nowhere near enough to get a book with every spell contained within it, you'd need far more than just 3 wishes.

[j!nx]

He's a poster who's A;Brazilian, they used translated books so as most know not everything makes it over during translation.... B; posted about how sorcerers were supreme and Wizards were weaker and then attempted in multiple ways to cheat his "sorcerer supreme" build. He riled up the whole forum .. (People here really don't like it when you try to attack their wizard constructs.) and eventually was banned for his actions.. and then has come back.. multiple times.. with multiple accounts repeatedly being banned. If you'd like I'm sure someone bookmarked all of the threads. I'd have to dig through the forum for them I didn't.

Anyway if you read enough of Drakos posts.. you get a pattern in speech, attitude and certain ticks.. like the thought process of a weather spell negating all divine spells.. (That was a favorite) This guy here he displayed a ton of the signs that flag another Drako account. Giants rules forbid multiple accounts and once you're banned.. you're banned.

thankyou now I am aware

[The_Jette]

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the description for Evil Weather (Violet Rain), and it does say that all divine spell casters lose access to their spells, divine spell affects are suppressed, and divine fueled magic items cease working for an entire 24 hour period. It would cost the caster 10,000 gp worth of amethyst, 200xp, and 3d6 con damage, though. And, it's definitely an evil spell, with the evil descriptor and everything. But, it does cut divine casters off from their spells (for a day at least). So, what's the main problem there?

[JustIgnoreMe]

At 50gp/page (from the rules for selling spellbooks), you could only get 500 pages for a 25,000gp, there's well over 1000 spells in the various 3.5 books, and at 1 page per spell level this is nowhere near enough to get a book with every spell contained within it, you'd need far more than just 3 wishes.

People usually word the wish as a Boccob's Blessed Book, but I'm not sure you can fit every spell in just one.

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the description for Evil Weather (Violet Rain), and it does say that all divine spell casters lose access to their spells, divine spell affects are suppressed, and divine fueled magic items cease working for an entire 24 hour period. It would cost the caster 10,000 gp worth of amethyst, 200xp, and 3d6 con damage, though. And, it's definitely an evil spell, with the evil descriptor and everything. But, it does cut divine casters off from their spells (for a day at least). So, what's the main problem there?

If I remember the threads right, firstly it's 3.0, and second there's a question about how it interacts with Southern Magician. I think Drako claimed that, by RAW, it stripped you of arcane spells too: as long as you had any divine casting, you lost all your casting. Basically, because it's 3.0, the wording doesn't match later 3.5 wording and it was never errata'd.

Oh, and Black Scar was immune to Con damage and used Taint...

[Lorddenorstrus]

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the description for Evil Weather (Violet Rain), and it does say that all divine spell casters lose access to their spells, divine spell affects are suppressed, and divine fueled magic items cease working for an entire 24 hour period. It would cost the caster 10,000 gp worth of amethyst, 200xp, and 3d6 con damage, though. And, it's definitely an evil spell, with the evil descriptor and everything. But, it does cut divine casters off from their spells (for a day at least). So, what's the main problem there?

At the level of optimization being discussed it's just not relevant because there's several easily accessed ways to interchange whether the spells you're casting are Arcane or Divine.

Edit; I should add the first time it came up in an original draco thread that was explained and ignored. I don't believe since then anyone's bothered to reexplain things when we see another of his accounts. When you waste over 70 pages trying to explain some of the same concepts over and over again and it doesn't sink in... There's gotta be a point where you just give up and don't bother anymore.