Agents of Shield VI: I am an Agent of SHIELD

[Lvl45DM!]

I thought that todays was a MUCH better episode and in alot of ways a better homage to the previous seasons than last weeks.
We had Season 1 wacky sci-fi technobabble that didn't involve yknow, fear dimensions, a touch of S2 spy-craft, a character from S3, and of course Season 4 Robot enemies.

Spoiler: Slight Problem

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Mack can tank two robot fighters alone. He wasnt out-maneuvering them or anything, he just slammed them around like they were regular humans.

[random11]

The second Deke is revealed to be their child (or grandson, whatever), he starts acting like a child.
He was annoying before, but now it's on overdrive.

[BWR]

Eh, it's a pretty natural character development, I feel.
He came to what was basically his promised land and finds out it isn't exactly what he imagined it, is out of his comfort zone, restricted in his movement and considered pretty useless here. He's stressed and frustrated feeling mostly helpless, something he isn't used to.

He's still super annoying, but it's not out of character.

[Joran]

I thought that todays was a MUCH better episode and in alot of ways a better homage to the previous seasons than last weeks.
We had Season 1 wacky sci-fi technobabble that didn't involve yknow, fear dimensions, a touch of S2 spy-craft, a character from S3, and of course Season 4 Robot enemies.

Spoiler: Slight Problem

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Mack can tank two robot fighters alone. He wasnt out-maneuvering them or anything, he just slammed them around like they were regular humans.

Yup, definitely felt like a return to form for SHIELD. We're one Brett Dalton sighting away from the good ole days ;)

Also, do these robo-mooks predate LMDs? I don't think we've seen them have super-strength, just durability.

Any ideas about Totally Not-Hydra, but kind of Adjacent to Hydra?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Too many candidates in the Marvelverse to say for sure, but maybe Secret Empire.

[Joran]

Too many candidates in the Marvelverse to say for sure, but maybe Secret Empire.

heh, I remember when the Tahiti Project was first revealed and "blue skin" only narrowed it down to 5-6 different candidates.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Would've been twice that if they still had F4 and X-Men at that point.

[Dilvish]

I would not have guessed it. Mack, an arms dealer for the inhumans?!

[Calemyr]

I would not have guessed it. Mack, an arms dealer for the inhumans?!

... ... ... ...

I tip my hat to you.

[Palanan]

Oy vey.

Remind me why I’m watching this dreck?

Spoiler: Hey, Hey, The Gang’s All Here!

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Look! It’s Creel!! It’s Russian Guy!! It’s Evil Fitz!!

Plus the General!! The Kree!! Hydra!! We have ALL THE BAD GUYS!!!

If only I cared.

Spoiler: Contrived to the Max

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This was like an 80s show with the inevitable evil twin. Except it’s in Fitz’s mind, so he has an excuse to torture people. And agonize because it’s the right thing to do.

At this point the entire fear-rift-thingy just feels like an absurdly contrived excuse to drive a predictable wedge between Fitz and Jemma. And I just can’t care, because they’ve trivialized the characters and turned them into soppy caricatures of who they used to be.

Spoiler: Woe Is Us!! Woe Is Us!!

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Seriously, why is everyone going to pieces? Why are Fitz, Jemma, Daisy all acting like fragile nitwits? These people have survived everything from brain-eating aliens to entire planets of death and doom, so why are they all having hysterics instead of acting like trained and hardened agents?

Spoiler: Hail Who Now?

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So, the General is working for…the Confederacy? Which is also the Kree? Which is also Hydra?

I’d care, but…no, not really.

.

[Red Fel]

Okay. Do not let anybody spoil this episode for you, including me. If you have not seen this episode, DO NOT reply with quote, because the spoilers tag is there for a reason.

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Let's get the crap out of the way first. Coulson falling for obvious trap - yeah, we all saw it coming. The Russian making a comeback - why not, everyone else is. Coulson going with Hale - sure, he does that a lot, and it always goes so well for him.

Simmons and Deke having their moment after the meatiest bits of the episode? I know it was meant to have impact, but when they pulled that Me-awful cliche of having one character start a saying, then another finish it with wide-eyed realization, all I thought was, "Wait, didn't tonight's episode Once Upon a Time end earlier?" Relying on cliches doesn't make it better, it makes it tired.

Okay. Now that we've gotten the crap out of the way, we need to talk about Fitz.

Ho. Lee. Crapbaskets. Fitz, my man.

This was a plot thread hanging over the show since they got out of the Framework. And while I appreciated the other characters repeatedly reminding Fitz that, "No, he wasn't you, he was a program," and I appreciated Fitz having difficulty coping with that fact, I was a bit annoyed that it would just be a running reference until he got past it.

You know, like the brain damage he suffered. Remember that? He got better.

But then... This. Oh, literal Hells yes. This we desperately needed. This was Fitz saying, "No, I'm not past it, because it wasn't just a program, and I'm not just saying that because I was traumatized. I will never be 'past it,' because that is me. That is an integral part of who I am, and you all need to stop ignoring or denying it."

That was glorious. Absolutely glorious. The moments leading up to the reveal were excellent. The twist was well-executed. De Caestecker's acting was as good as it has ever been - on both sides of the character. The character development was totally earned. This isn't a problem that's going away. This, like Coulson's suicidal tendencies, is going to be a thing, from now on. It's not a case of convincing him that this isn't him; it's whether they can accept that it is.

This is a natural, if dark, evolution of a brainy rationalist whose ideals have been progressively stripped away, for whom ruthlessness and effectiveness have become a way of life. This is the guy who was trained by Ward. This is someone who did whatever it took - multiple times - to save Simmons. This is the guy who abandoned morality in his work with Radcliffe. And every time he becomes less idealistic, and more pragmatic, he gets better at his job. Better at the science. Better at the combat. He's more effective. And this episode with his "Doctor Leopold" persona proves it - he's at his most effective when he's completely ruthless. And he points it out, too - it worked. As hurt as everyone is - and those emotional scars had better not heal quickly - this was the best thing to do.

All of this just gives him such a compelling character arc, and I love it. I absolutely love it.

[Androgeus]

Remind me why I’m watching this dreck?

I don't know, you obviously get no enjoyment out of it.

[comicshorse]

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This seems to be such a terrible idea that I wonder if the point is to subvert the whole 'hard men taking hard choices' trope.
"I will reactivate killer robots and arm them and send them out with weapons to restrain my comrades in ways that could easily get them killed. So I can strangle another comrade and perform a delicate operation on circuitry linked up with her brain in the most primitive conditions and while she's terrified and trying to escape.
Yes, brilliant. And so much more sensible than simply talking to Daisy and persuading her to let me remove the chip safely "

[BWR]

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This seems to be such a terrible idea that I wonder if the point is to subvert the whole 'hard men taking hard choices' trope.
"I will reactivate killer robots and arm them and send them out with weapons to restrain my comrades in ways that could easily get them killed. So I can strangle another comrade and perform a delicate operation on circuitry linked up with her brain in the most primitive conditions and while she's terrified and trying to escape.
Yes, brilliant. And so much more sensible than simply talking to Daisy and persuading her to let me remove the chip safely "

Except they were running out of time, time which he believed he didn't have to try diplomacy, and he had good reason to believe she would refuse pretty much no matter what. He just took the simplest and most effective way to achieve his goals, never mind some hurt feelings. Survival is more important than some bruises.

[Red Fel]

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This seems to be such a terrible idea that I wonder if the point is to subvert the whole 'hard men taking hard choices' trope.
"I will reactivate killer robots and arm them and send them out with weapons to restrain my comrades in ways that could easily get them killed. So I can strangle another comrade and perform a delicate operation on circuitry linked up with her brain in the most primitive conditions and while she's terrified and trying to escape.
Yes, brilliant. And so much more sensible than simply talking to Daisy and persuading her to let me remove the chip safely "

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But she would never agree to it. That's kind of the whole point.

The reason this event was - or should be - traumatic for her wasn't just that someone she thought was a friend tied her down and performed incredibly invasive and painful surgery without anaesthetic. Yes, that's part of it, but that's not the heart of the trauma.

The trauma comes from the fact that this event forced her to realize her fear, developed over the past half-season - that she will destroy the world. It's why she wanted to stay in the future. It's why she prefers staying in central command. It's why she hasn't once asked them to try to remove the chip.

She would never have agreed to it. She would have pulled a, "Fitz, you're smart, you'll find another way." And everyone would have backed her on that, because he is and usually would.

Over the past several episodes, Fitz has managed to convince himself that, maybe, it's not Daisy, it's the Rift that destroys the world. And thus, Fitz would sincerely believe that, between the two, Daisy's powers are a calculated risk, the lesser of two evils. The logical choice. A choice with which nobody, especially Daisy, would agree. And Fitz realized that, too.

Moreover, this is who Fitz is. This is who he has become. Everyone relies on him, everyone expects him to shoulder all of the weight and solve all of the problems, while - to the mind of a person like Fitz - they sit around and debate the morality. They expect him to do all the work but can't offer any help aside from backseat philosophy. So, fine - he will do the work; let them moralize later on. They want him to do what needs to be done. They need him to do it. So he'll do it.

And he did.

As for activating the killer robot, it only did what he programmed it to do. It's not like they came preprogrammed with a bloodlust that he only barely restrained. It was a puppet that worked as designed. The fact that it only injured Mack, instead of killing him, is what made Simmons realize what happened.

[comicshorse]

Except they were running out of time, time which he believed he didn't have to try diplomacy, and he had good reason to believe she would refuse pretty much no matter what. He just took the simplest and most effective way to achieve his goals, never mind some hurt feelings. Survival is more important than some bruises.

There is no way that convolted scheme counts as a simpler way than talking to Daisy. Particularly as its complicated nature gives multiple opportunities for it to screw up and ruin ANY chance of the world surviving.

[Palanan]

Here’s a tidbit of Clark Gregg news with some potential relevance to the season finale:

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Evidently Clark Gregg will be playing Agent Coulson in the Captain Marvel movie. Could be a flashback, but it does suggest Coulson will somehow be saved without destroying the whole tamale.

That was the predictable happy ending for this season, yes, but I was really hoping Coulson would go out on a heroic note.

[random11]

Spoiler: I'm a bit torn on this episode.

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On one hand, it was a good twist, well played and built on information that was already provided for us.
On the other hand, it's build upon two of my least favorite story lines in the series - The Framework, and the time travel.
I like a good twist, kudos to them on this, but in a wider perspective it wasn't worth so many bad episodes.

Also, I refuse to give them any points on timing.
Under the law of "no one is allowed to be happy", the wedding was a huge timer for something to happen, even if we didn't know exactly what.

The last minute of the episode was ridicules, and not in a good way.
Confederate Kree hydra?
Why, was "Confederate zombie cannibals" already taken and this was your second attempt for random enemies?

[The New Bruceski]

Here’s a tidbit of Clark Gregg news with some potential relevance to the season finale:

Spoiler

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Evidently Clark Gregg will be playing Agent Coulson in the Captain Marvel movie. Could be a flashback, but it does suggest Coulson will somehow be saved without destroying the whole tamale.

That was the predictable happy ending for this season, yes, but I was really hoping Coulson would go out on a heroic note.

The Captain Marvel movie is set in the 90s. It's also going to have a couple of Kree who are now dead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Red Fel

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*gushing*

I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Originally Posted by comicshorse

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This seems to be such a terrible idea that I wonder if the point is to subvert the whole 'hard men taking hard choices' trope.

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It’s remotely possible, but I think it’s much more likely to be plain, simple bad writing.

At this point it feels like writer fatigue. They started the season having fun, and I was having fun with them, but things have become increasingly ridiculous by exponential leaps and bounds. They're doing filler episodes, greatest-hits episodes, whatever they can to just grind it out.

Originally Posted by comicshorse

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"...Yes, brilliant. And so much more sensible than simply talking to Daisy and persuading her to let me remove the chip safely."

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This entirely. So much this. Daisy’s intelligent enough to respond to Fitz treating her like an adult and discussing the options logically.

But then, that wouldn’t be all dark and edgy and leftover-character-arc-rehashey.

Originally Posted by random11

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Confederate Kree hydra?
Why, was "Confederate zombie cannibals" already taken and this was your second attempt for random enemies?

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So, so sadly true.

Originally Posted by Androgeus
I don't know, you obviously get no enjoyment out of it.

Because a series I’ve enjoyed for years has suddenly jumped every shark in the Pacific. It’s painful to watch, but I can’t look away.

[Red Fel]

Because a series I’ve enjoyed for years has suddenly jumped every shark in the Pacific. It’s painful to watch, but I can’t look away.

Wait, wait... Suddenly?

This was your shark-jumping moment?

Not time travel? Not virtual reality? Not robot revolution? Not mutant juice in the fish oil? Not interdimensional ghosts? Not alien parasites?

This moment right here, suddenly?

Don't get me wrong, I love the show too, but it's been jumping sharks almost since it started.

[LaZodiac]

Is any of that really jumping the shark when it's all very much in line with comic books? I mean for me personally time travel is a big kinda "eeeeeeeeeeeh" but it was handled rather well for what it was.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'd argue about 'handled well', but I'm too busy admiring your new avatar.

[LaZodiac]

I'd argue about 'handled well', but I'm too busy admiring your new avatar.

Hoo, hoo.

But yeah no it's entirely arguable what is and isn't handled well in Shield. I'll admit I've only seen the end part of the time travel plot but it seemed fairly good to me! It's not perfect, but it's about as well done as any time travel plot.

[Calemyr]

My thoughts on it. As Fel said, this isn't one you want spoiled. Yes, there is a revelation, and yes, it's well executed. And yes, that's my stance.

Spoiler: Seriously, watch it first.

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I was pretty sure the twist was going to be that Leopold was going to trying to save the world, which would be Fitz's greatest fear - that somehow Leopold was a hero and how that undermined his own morality. Of course, it didn't take that path. I'm honestly impressed by that.

The thing I've always hated about how they handled Leopold was that everybody dismissed Fitz's claims that he and Leopold were the same. "No, it's not you." "No, it was the Framework." When the framework outright didn't change the nature of people, just extrapolated how they'd develop with a few events tweaked. Mack was still the protective father figure, he just had a daughter to focus it on. Daisy was still the affirmation-hungry genius who would go all-in for a group that would give her a purpose. May only became the badass she became because of intense emotional trauma, while Coulson always was shown with a romanticized view of the past and a penchant for teaching (or training) fresh minds. But Fitz? Nope. Not him. Not him at all. Somehow he's the only person the Framework completely rewrote. Had someone, anyone, had the brass to sit down, face the facts, and talk Fitz through it, it would have done him a world of good.

Due to the rest of the "anomalies" in the story, there's not much about Leopold that catches the eye immediately. A self-aware anomaly repairing robots to present a more physical threat? Sounds like a perfect Leopold move. Him being Fitz's ultimate fear, and thus a more powerful anomaly? That works to. In the show and in the setting, this setup works to mislead everyone, including Fitz.

Leopold's "birth" here makes a lot of sense as well. Fitz is desperate to find a solution. There's one sitting in the back of his mind, but he cannot bring himself to even consider it. No, there must be another way, he just has to be smarter. The stress of the situation coupled with the fact that a solution is ready to hand that he won't consider just... breaks him. Leopold emerges and solves the problem, in a Leopold way. If I understand it correctly, a lot of secondary personalities are originally created to help the person, if only to let them disassociate themselves from the trauma in their lives. Leopold contains the others as best as he can on short notice and sets up some insurance in case Fitz, who he knows won't agree with the solution, tries to interfere. Jemma snaps him out of it, but Fitz is left with a solution he knows will work and no way to weasel out of it. He does it, everything works out, and the end justifies the means, leaving Fitz conflicted between the fact that he simultaneously saved the day and betrayed two of his closest friends in the world.

This suggests a new risk to their adventures, as well: Fitz may continue to be the good, loving, bumbling genius we all adore, but he now has a gun to head. Inside his head. If Fritz ever disregards a ruthless solution to a problem and stubbornly grasps around blindly for a happy ending, Leopold can show up at a moment's notice to "solve" it for him, regardless of the collateral damage. That means that "holding actions" like how they've been treating the rift may no longer be acceptable.

One thing I didn't like, though, was good old Arthur Dent Yo-Yo. She acts like she's thought things through, but she really hasn't. Last Loop Yo-Yo did die between now and then. Many times. The Kree just got hold of her body and pulls her out of the crypt every once in a while to ask questions. What put her there was not clear. She could die at any time, as long as her body is sufficiently preserved for the Kree to bring her back for some Q&A at a later date. (Granted, we know that's not exactly true. Last Loop Yo-Yo survived long enough to watch Mack die along with her faith, but she didn't mention that to Current Yo-Yo. Just a soulful wish that she use those arms to hug Mack while she can.)

As for the ending, I believe what they're saying here is that the faction of the Kree Hale is working with is "The Confederacy" and they are working with her because of Hydra's many ties to the Kree. Not, you know, positive ties, but... it's a foot in the door. The Kree have factored into many of Hydra's schemes, including their founding, and Hale is dancing on a line between being outright Hydra and being Hydra's more sensible sister organization. The "And, of course, 'Hail Hydra'." is simply acknowledging her own allegiance, not theirs. Sort of a flippant "Oh, right, and I guess your ideals matter somewhat. I guess.", if you will. Odds are that Hale doesn't want the Confederacy to claim Earth and is working with them to find a way to stop it, wanting Coulson as an ally but not trusting him to play it smart. She has clearly demonstrated some resentment that Coulson is allowed to save the day while clinging to his ideals while she is forced betray her own at every turn.

All told, I was pretty impressed with the episode.

[leafman]

Why, was "Confederate zombie cannibals" already taken

Yeah, something like that.

[Palanan]

Eh. That happened.

Spoiler: Hydra High

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So, sort of evil Harry Potter villain academy, showing Hydra at their absolute, rock-bottom worst. They’re not just a maniacal cult of psychopaths bent on global domination through infiltration and subversion; they’re sexist, too! Horreurs!! That makes them really bad guys!

It was vaguely funny to see Sitwell as an underachieving slouch, and Whitehall continues the nostalgia parade. (But wasn’t the timing off on Whitehall? Wasn’t he in prison in Bulgaria or something until 1991?)

So, yes, funny, Hydra High has school spirit posters and bad cafeteria food. But this was pretty late in the game to load up most of an episode with Hale’s backstory, and if it was meant to give us any sympathy for her, it was a misfire.

Spoiler: Fitz & Jemma, Together Forever

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What.

I’m just not buying Jemma’s sudden “don’t worry, be happy” approach to her unapologetically evil husband. It’s like she’s been Stockholmed into believing he’s really an okay guy, recent forced vivisection to the contrary.

Fitz is well on the way to being Whitehall Jr., and one would think that Jemma, of all people, would have a difficult time with that; but nope, she’s all sunny and perky and “we’ll get through this, because time travel is actually fate.”

Gah. Whedonize them already.

Spoiler: Worst Alien Battleship Ever

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Clearly they blew through their effects budget in the first half of the season, because the supposedly terrifying alien warcruiser looked like a bad animatic from Tron.

Near as I could tell, it was essentially the forward boom of a Klingon D-7 with some cargo modules stacked around it. Maybe it frightens civilizations by providing slow delivery service to rural areas.

Spoiler: About That Confederacy...

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I’m assuming this is a lead-in to Infinity War? Or is this just some random interstellar conflict about to roll over us?

Either way, I’m not sure how setting an altitude relative to Earth’s surface—spinning, precessing, nutating, and revolving all at once, while the entire solar system is speeding along its galactic orbit—is supposed to allow for surefire interstellar travel.

Gah. How many more episodes?

.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Gah. How many more episodes?

For me? None. I've finally reached my limit.

See y'all in the Infinity War thread.

[Palanan]

I'm almost there. I'm just holding out hope that somehow, somewhere, someone will put a lightsaber through Ruby's smug little pout.

[Joran]

I'm enjoying it, quite a bit. Once I accepted time travel in SPAAAAAAAACE, I can accept anything... okay school for evil kids was a bit silly, but still having fun.

Spoiler: Timeline things

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According to the wiki, cause I don't remember these things, Whitehead apparently got out of jail in 1989, meaning the timeline still lines up.

Spoiler: Old Friends

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Aww, poor Talbot, I felt bad for him, although he got to tell off Hydra one last time.

Spoiler: We're INVINCIBLE

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Well, actually, all we know about your future Simmons is that you stay alive long enough to have and raise a child. No promises for Dr. Jekyll.