AD&D vs Dungeon Keeper (Die Die My Darling Thrash Metal remix) [rules mod]

[Lord Sidereal]

So I found my copy of Dungeon Keeper 2 the other day. I was filled with elation. An evil grin spread across my face. I installed. And the disc was so scratched the computer wouldn't even pick up the names of the files :(

All, however, was not lost. I have been toying with the idea of some sort of evil-orientated campaign in AD&D for some time now, but come across the same old problems. It is difficult to qualify a band of evil players together that arent henchman of some darker being (whihc is boring) and tiresome to keep track of 4-6 seperate threads if they play independently.

Thus I reached a happy medium. I am going to use AD&D (and the OGL) to craft a Dungeon Dungeons and Dragons Keeper. A mash-up, for those of you that read Wired/Blog/Use Googlemaps for pleasure. So I thought I'd use this forum as a sandbox. Because Im selfish, and I need help. My ideas so far, in no coherent order:

• Players don't have a character sheet or become directly involved in the action
• Unless a normal campaign is run sidealong with this venture
• As in DK, they get a piece of underground terrain to shape
• And rooms to install. These rooms let them build things, gain magic etc
• But unlike DK, monsters are recruited. However, some monsters have certain requirements. Pit Fiends, for instance, are probably quite picky about what company they keep.
• Monsters (or minions) can gain up to 10 extra racial hit die, 5 from training and 5 from combat

So what I need to do is sketch up rules for rooms (gold cost, minimun size, put some numerical values on the beneifts), minions (how much to hire, whats available, requirements) magic (do overlords cast or just wizard caharcters? can I use D&D spells or do i need some area effects?) traps/doors (cost and use) and all that. And here, in this post, is where ill do it. What you think?

[Saithis Bladewing]

You too, huh?

Myself, I'm going to make them make character sheets still, as if all else fails and the heroes do get through to the 'heart' if you will, they will still have a chance to defend themselves. Instead of killing the heart, the heroes have to kill the keepers themselves, so to speak.

[Lord Sidereal]

Ah, a fellow game-crafter.

My intial games will be a DK as possible, to iron out as many bugs as possible. After that i might sidealong this and an evil AD&D campaign. How are you dealing with the issue of how playerts recruit monsters? I doubt there is some sort of municipal job-centre for mercenaries

[Saithis Bladewing]

I'm fleshing it out a bit more than just a Dungeon, admittedly. For my game, I'm planning on letting them interact in some ways with the surface, just that the whole leaving the surface thing is really dangerous, unless it's sending out raiding parties to pillage small settlements for something (good luck fighting anything resembling a sizeable town with an organised militia unless you've got some awesome monsters).

As for recruitment of monsters, obviously they'll have differing needs, some will be extremely picky. Some monster types may just want food out of the equation (albeit lots), some may cost money to maintain magically (I plan to let them both recruit monsters that already exist, and to summon certain types of monsters magically as well - different monsters require one or the other). Intelligent monsters may require some kind of interview - not necessarily a structured thing, but you are going to have to convince them as to why they should join you. A Pit Fiend isn't just going to walk in and go 'you'll pay me, sure!' He's going to want to have need and he will negotiate and scheme to try and get what he wants out of the deal. If he doesn't like the deal, he might just walk out. The price you pay for trying to earn a powerful creature.

I think I'm going to either make them chosen 'servants' of a dark god, who wants them to destroy the world eventually, or they're going to find some kind of ancient evil artifact which promises them the power to rule the world. They will be given some starting help (servants of impish nature, almost, to help them craft their domain) and they will be shown where to find potential allies early on to hire, though who they choose is up to them.

Also, I'm not sure I like the gain HD by training deal. It works differently for different creatures (training a kobold vs. training a Pit Fiend. The power jump of the kobold is massive, the Pit Fiend's is impressive, but not THAT impressive).

Of course, it should be noted that I am planning on running D&D 3.5e, so there will be differences in the execution of our plans, no matter how similar they may be. :P

[Lord Sidereal]

The overland thing would be tricky. You would perhaps need a third system. Warhammer-ish, to run engagements of that sort of size.

I was reckoning on a kind of repuation (like the leadership feat) attracting normal monsters (orcs, ogres, dragons), whilst magical might or lots of sacrfices/deaths might summon demons and devils.

Ah, I see your point. However it would mean that certain troop types wouldn't be entirely expendable, and there would be some level of moderation sot hat it was difficult to get a very high-level koblod (like eperience bounadires increasingly expotentially in D&D)

[Xefas]

Ummmm...just a minor suggestion; Couldn't you use the Stronghold Builder's Guide, of which I think there is both a 2nd ed version and 3rd ed version, to write up the cost of building dungeon rooms? They already have them mapped into "stronghold spaces" or some-such, just like Dungeon Keeper had everything into a sort of grid.

AND they even have gold costs for recruiting some monsters. At least, they do in the 3rd edition version, which is the only one I have access too.

EDIT: Ack, nevermind, I think the monster recruitment is in the Arms and Equipment Guide instead.

[Saithis Bladewing]

The overland thing would be tricky. You would perhaps need a third system. Warhammer-ish, to run engagements of that sort of size.

Oh, that's the least of my worries. I already know exactly what I'm going to be doing with that. I find it a lot easier than my plans for underground, to be honest.

I was reckoning on a kind of repuation (like the leadership feat) attracting normal monsters (orcs, ogres, dragons), whilst magical might or lots of sacrfices/deaths might summon demons and devils.

Hmm, that is a good idea. I think reputation should definitely be used in some way. UA had a system of Reputation here that might be worth referencing if you need any form of inspiration:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ca...reputation.htm

Ah, I see your point. However it would mean that certain troop types wouldn't be entirely expendable, and there would be some level of moderation sot hat it was difficult to get a very high-level koblod (like eperience bounadires increasingly expotentially in D&D)

I agree, I just...I dunno, there's something about training alone increasing HD that bugs me. I definitely want training to be involved, though. I guess HD is the easiest way to do it, but I'm gonna still keep trying to think of other things I can do.

[Pronounceable]

Hello, fellow Keeper fans. I hope you've also played DK1, it was much better.

I once made a campaign setting around DK. Players played monsters employed by mysterious and awesomely powerful entities called Dungeon Keepers. There were some very powerful, established Keepers. And new, green Keepers sprouted out of the ground here and there. Biggest Keepers were after magical artifacts called Shards of Light, about 1000 pieces of the Key of Surface World. If a Keeper could collect them all and rebuild the Key, they could gain access to surface. There were legions of heroes roaming underground looking to vanquish evil (and to gain loot and XP). Also the Surface Portal was guarded by a legion of heroes led by the Avatar himself. There was much death and destruction going on.

It was fun. The main idea was DKs were, in fact, some folks playing a MMO version of DK. Critters in the gameworld could never hope to comprehend them.

But I see that you want players to be DKs. I thought about it at one point, but decided it'd be too much like a board game then.


Moving on to you guys:
I don't think it's a good idea to DnDize it entirely. Monsters particularly, wouldn't FEEL DK with standard DnD rules. There's gotta be 10 levels. A level 10 critter should be awesome and very rare. Lvl 1 critters are but mooks and fodder but 10s (actually 8 and above) are NPCs.

DKs have a mana resource that they get from domains. You should incorporate it somehow. And the imps. Little bastards are a must for any DK themed game.

What I did as game mechanics was simple. All critters have attack, defense and HP plus magic abilities. Attack roll+attack-defense=HP damage. Spells and abilites are usable every x rounds. Levels increase all three stats. All critters, even non spellcaster critters like orcs or kobolds can be granted spells and resources by their Keepers (magic sword +10, magic armor +5, 10 damage magic missile every 3 rounds, Regeneration 5, etc). This gives an incentive to join DKs.

When a DK is banished by the destruction of Heart, all his critters take damage and lose all DK granted abilities. Most of weak critters die and stronger ones lose all their cool abilities and shiny toys, so it's in their best interests to keep the Heart intact.

Examples:
Generic Goblin 1: at +1, de 13, HP 10.
Generic Orc 1: at +3, de 15, HP 25.
Generic Dragon 5: at+55, de 25, HP 5000. Magic: Lots
(Major NPC) The Dark Marshall of the Dark Keep (Black Knight 10): at +85 (Sword of Irredeemable Evil), de 45 (Unholy Armor of Eternal Tyranny), HP 15000
(BBEG)The Horned Reaper: at YES, de NO, HP are for the weak.
(BBGG)The Avatar: at always, de never, HP infinite

PS: Cheesy, corny or otherwise over the top names are the way to go.

I never cared about XP. But for a mechanic, a critter gains XP whenever it deals damage to another critter (1 XP per level of enemy). XP back to 0 on level up. Level ups are at 100, 200, 300, 400... Could be too much of a bother.


Keep posting folks. I'm interested in anything DK.

[Xuincherguixe]

Sounds fun :P

It might be an idea though to not really come up with any reason for their to be dugneon keepers :P Maybe the real dark secret is that they were created by townsfolk so they would collect all the gold to deal with the frightening levels of inflation thanks to people raiding dungeons, and deal with the high adventurer populations.

Or maybe the characters are just minor dark gods, who don't really need a reason to be evil. They never seem to.

[Saithis Bladewing]

You might not, but it's still something I will probably plan on doing. I'm not looking for an exact DK duplicate in D20 form, if I wanted that I'd just make a new system. I'm just looking to play a game in the same theme and style, with similar objectives and risks.

[Xuincherguixe]

Fair enough.

There's a reason I use words like might :P

[Saithis Bladewing]

That's fair. Just a difference of opinion, wot wot.

Oh, and yes I did play the original DK, and I do prefer it in terms of gameplay to DK2, though I do enjoy DK2 quite a bit as well.

[bosssmiley]

You might want to look up the Master of Snake Mountain BBEG-specific PrC in K's Dungeonomicon.
(PgDwn key 9 times will get you to it from the link above).

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[Matthew]

Ever since I first saw Dungeon Keeper advertised I have wanted to emulate it in RPG form, but it's a daunting task. The Player Characters are almost going to have to be Lieutenants of a greater evil for it to work, which then opens up a world of fun. I think also it will be necessary for Player Characters to be 'expendable' and for Players to have multiple Characters, otherwise things may get quite boring.

So many House Rules would be required to get this to work properly - the mind surely boggles! But it would probably be excellent fun.