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Thread: You will always be first level
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2017-05-08, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: You will always be first level
My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.
Currently Playing
Raiatari Eikibe - Ghostfoot's RHOD Righteous Resistance
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2017-05-08, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Portland, OR
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Re: You will always be first level
Note that the 'magical
heritagetraining' feat lets you choose 2 or 3 (spontaneous vs. prepared) cantrips, for 3 castings per day (total), so you can have prestidigitation and mend regardless of your class.
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Going with artificer. Access to 2nd level spells from every list (list of spells available at lower level than usual via specific/obscure spell lists). I'll spend my days scribing restricted (discounted) scrolls of bestow curse, and 'cursing' myself with a growing pile of permanent perks that are 'no more powerful' than those examples already provided (see compilation below).
Some obvious examples:
*–6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
*Target takes -8 penalty on all checks made using one skill, such as Climb or Spellcraft.
*Every time the victim makes a d20 roll, a roll of 20 counts as a 1.
*The target loses the use of one of his feats. If this feat is a prerequisite for other feats, the target loses the use of those feats as well.
So I curse myself with a +6 (unnamed) bonus to an ability score (once per stat), a +8 (unnamed) bonus to a skill (once per skill), with d20 rolls of 1 counting as a 20 (19 castings and all my d20 rolls count as 20s), and an effectively unlimited supply of bonus feats to really open some doors.
Last edited by Shalist; 2017-05-08 at 06:05 PM.
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2017-05-08, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Neither here nor there
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Re: You will always be first level
I'm not seeing how that works.
My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.
Currently Playing
Raiatari Eikibe - Ghostfoot's RHOD Righteous Resistance
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2017-05-08, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Portland, OR
- Gender
Re: You will always be first level
Originally Posted by d20srd
Permanently increasing a stat by 6 is no more powerful than permanently decreasing it by 6; making every 1 on a d20 into count as a 20 is no more powerful than making every 20 count as a 1 (or a 2nd/3rd/etc. curse that change 2s/3s/etc. into 20s); granting a bonus feat is no more powerful than removing a feat, and so on.
edit: To clarify, artificers can scribe 2nd level spells at level 1 due to counting as 2 levels higher for item crafting prereqs, and they can scribe scrolls of spells from any list. This means they can scribe bestow curse from the demonologist list (where it's a 2nd level spell) at 1st level.Last edited by Shalist; 2017-05-08 at 06:59 PM.
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2017-05-08, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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- Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Re: You will always be first level
I think if the whole world used the same rules, i might go UMD based Cha/Int rogue.
In a world where the very few magic items can not be used by hardly anybody, a umd master would be popular.
Also, in a world where most folks have 6-16 skill points, having 48 would be way cool.
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2017-05-08, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2017-05-08, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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Re: You will always be first level
I would have to disagree completely. Permanently increasing a stat by 6 is better than anything non-Epic available in the game. Making every 1 on a d20 count as a 20 is much more powerful than the obverse. Making further numbers count as a 20 is even more powerful, on a logarithmic scale. Granting a Bonus Feat is clearly more powerful than removing a feat.
The scale does not slide equally in both directions. In D&D it is easier to overcome penalties than it is to stack bonuses.
This is why the "Obverse Curse" idea fails.
I would also say it fails under the rules for researching new spells. A spell that does something better than an existing spell should always be either higher level or harder to achieve (only on a PrC's spell list, for example).
You can be a Cleric of an Ideal, rather than a Deity.
I would be a Cleric of "I'm a badass".Last edited by Dagroth; 2017-05-08 at 08:37 PM.
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2017-05-08, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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Re: You will always be first level
If I can use Spheres of Power, I'll be an Incanter with the Weather (I could make a killing as a rainmaker/guarantee no rain at outdoor weddings), Telekinesis (becuase I've always thought it was cool), and Alteration spheres (for shapeshifting debauchery), and trade away my bonus feats for channeling positive energy and the Alteration specialization. If I have to use 3.5 classes, I'll be a sorcerer with a few of the already mentioned low-level arcane spells.
Avatar by Coronalwave
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2017-05-14, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2017-05-15, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Portland, OR
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Re: You will always be first level
Bestow curse does exist, and it can permanently decrease a stat by 6, which also stacks with everything else, and is mathematically equal in power (-6 + 6 = 0). The problem isn't simply using curses as buffs, it's also that bestow curse and its 'permanent' duration are already overpowered; this is just more obvious when it's used on a PC who actually lives with the results indefinitely, rather than quickly removing the curse or using it on an expendable NPC.
Making every 1 on a d20 count as a 20 is much more powerful than the obverse. Making further numbers count as a 20 is even more powerful, on a logarithmic scale.
Granting a Bonus Feat is clearly more powerful than removing a feat.
The scale does not slide equally in both directions. In D&D it is easier to overcome penalties than it is to stack bonuses.
This is why the "Obverse Curse" idea fails.
I would also say it fails under the rules for researching new spells. A spell that does something better than an existing spell should always be either higher level or harder to achieve (only on a PrC's spell list, for example).
This idea clearly runs counter to RAI, but only outright fails because no DM would ever allow it at their table, which doesn't (necessarily) apply to these sorts of hypothetical exercises.
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2017-05-15, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: You will always be first level
www.WorldOfPrime.com and Sword of the Bright Lady (Flintlock Fantasy!)
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2017-05-16, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2014
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2017-05-16, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: You will always be first level
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2017-05-16, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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- Omaha, NE
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Re: You will always be first level
So... what you're saying is that you are going to use curse on yourself in order to increase your scores? So, you're going to use a spell that is specifically created to harm people in a way that will help yourself? See, from what I can tell, that's the equivalent of experimenting with magic on yourself, and leaving yourself to the whims of the DM. Now, this being Faerun, how well do you really see that ending up? Remember, the world that you're sending yourself to regularly has Deities murdered, and experimenting Wizards accidentally creating tears in reality, or horrible abominations of nature that kill them. Seriously, you think you'll end up on the winning end of that bet?
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2017-05-16, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2017-05-16, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Portland, OR
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Re: You will always be first level
1) As far as 'magical experiments' go, you're not doing anything particularly exotic here *shrug*.
2) You could make a similar argument for any shenanigans. That is hardly limited to wish abuse, infinite money, and such; using magic for pretty much anything outside of combat (usually its intended purpose) can have boat-rocking, society-altering ramifications.
3) Who says you have to 'experiment' on yourself? Just sling a few 'curses' at (for instance) a feral cat. I personally can't think of any way in which that could possibly end badly.
4) If you were on Faerun, you'd be kinda screwed and 'at the whim of the DM' no matter how well-behaved you tried to be.
5) Fortunately, the OP didn't say anything about being on Faerun, just that you get a class level.
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2017-05-17, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Omaha, NE
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2017-05-17, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: You will always be first level
I take my level in Pugilist, a variant of fighter. I trade my bonus feat for 'Shake it Off', which allows me to convert all damage to nonlethal damage.
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2017-05-17, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2017
Re: You will always be first level
I am adjusting my previous answer:
Human Bard
Precocious Apprentice
Diplomat
Level 0 spells:
Mage Hand
Mending
Prestidigitation
Songbird
Level 2 spell:
Cure Moderate Wounds
Skills (assuming 14 Int) = (6+2+1)x4 = 36
4 Perform (oratory)
4 Diplomacy
4 Sense Motive
4 Bluff
4 Speak Language (7 total languages)
4 Heal
4 Appraise
4 Craft (Alchemist)
4 Profession (Herbalism)
Languages Known:
English
Spanish
Mandarin
Russian
Portuguese
Hindi
Arabic
I'm 99% sure that a person with this setup would rule the world.Last edited by Nebuul; 2017-05-18 at 01:25 PM.
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2017-05-18, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
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Re: You will always be first level
Do I get this level on top (gestalted) or instead (previous "levels" are now gone) of my current skillset and abilities?
Either way, I´m in medical research, so it´s probably most useful for me on that path to take a level of cleric or similar. It´s too bad I can´t take brew potion as a feat below caster level 3, I would love to brew a potion of cure light wounds and then run some tests on it. At least I could get Craft (alchemy) as a skill. Not as relevant, but might still turn out useful. I could also do with some extra Knowledge (anything relevant). Spells like Purify food and drink (I assume it would work at the very least on medicines for oral use, would be very helpful in figuring out which separation steps bring a product closest to purity) and Detect poison would be nice to have. I'd actually be tempted to go Adept, but their familiar doesn't come in until level 2. Just saying an intelligent talking raven would be pretty cool to have (In combination with aforementioned spells). The hour of meditation shouldn't be too big of a deal. I have a hard time getting out of bed anyway, so if I wake half an hour earlier I can probably manage to fit in an hour of being half awake and also thinking about what spells I need today. The hardest part might be finding a nice deity I can technically serve but not be send to the end of the earth on a quest by. Is Hanuman an option?
I always liked rangers, they have a nice skill list and both track and wild empathy are kind of cool, but they're not stuff that I really can't slowly learn to do the normal way, and they're only relevant to my secondary professional skillset. So if we're talking "on top of/gestalted with normal world abilities" it's simply not a very good option.
I also like the answer of just going expert and picking ten relevant skills. Assuming I can pass for at least 12 int I could max out 7 of them. Especially in the gestalted scenario I could become quite the skill monkey by picking all the stuff that's relatively relevant to me but I haven't put as much time into yet.The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!
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2017-05-18, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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- Schwäbisch Hall
Re: You will always be first level
Isn't pun-pun a level 1 paladin?
Anyhow the psion who manifests minor creation at level 1 is also intersting.
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2017-05-18, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
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Re: You will always be first level
Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2017-05-18 at 07:54 AM.
The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!
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2017-05-18, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-05-18, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- material & internet plane
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2017-05-18, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
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Re: You will always be first level
Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2017-05-18 at 12:00 PM.
The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!
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2017-05-18, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: You will always be first level
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2017-05-18, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: You will always be first level
Wedded to History doesn't actually extend your lifespan unless you have a really really lenient DM that will let you read a lot of "implied" into it. It is basically a gateway feat for "out of time" characters, like Arthur out of Avalon, or Steve Rogers.
So no change in race, etc. Well. I expect I'll have to follow the general rules on things, such as magic, etc. But magic is the most payoff I can get here. Precocious Apprentice is tempting, but I have some doubts I can satisfy the 15 Int or Cha requirement. Like most people here, I figure I am a smart guy, but life has taught me that there are smarter. Lets not mention Cha, ok?
I'd like a healing spell, but divine magic generally requires a patron deity or concept, and keeping your alignment up. If you Fall, thats it. There is no-one around that can cast Atonement. And things like Minor Divine Spellcaster requires a 13 Cha.
Arcane Magic looks better. I can swing 11 Int no problem. However, spell research as a Wizard is a problem, it may require exotic components and materials that are unavailable. Sha'ir are Cha-Based.
So I'm thinking Beguiler. Plenty of skill points, Int-based and heavily front-loaded on the magic.
Troll-blooded is a very tempting feat, despite the requirements and the fatigued in sunlight bit. Heighten/Versatile is tempting too, but as a guy who is not intending to get into fights or adventure, Regeneration is just better than what level 2 offers.
I'll need 1 flaw, shaky. so Im a poor shot. Im average as it is. Feats are Toughness, Troll-blooded and Arcane Disciple: Healing. Arcane Disciple requires some skill points a patron deiety a an alignment that matches. A bit shaky, and involves some guesswork, am I really Good? But it doesn't have an atonement clause if I go into the spiritual ditch, so I can get back on track again. I think I can swing an 11 wisdom, I do get age bonuses.
Skills, 7+ Int x 4, 8 points to the AD feat, the rest go to Profession and Language Skills. Medicine, finance etc.
Pathfinder... Is there an Int-based archetype? Cure light Wounds and Disguise Self.
I think I came across a feat once that extended lifespan by 50 %. Same as the epic feat. Never found it again. And I wish I could find a way of getting Suggestion, or orisons.
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2017-05-18, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
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Re: You will always be first level
As a note on this one, I think what Celestia is trying to say is that perform, like craft, already functions as profession does. There's no profession (fletcher/bowmaker) because craft (bowmaking) covers everything that would cover and more. Perform does not just cover what profession does, but it's plain better. You can roll for your income every day rather than every week, and results above 20 make some pretty good money compared to profession as well as making you famous.
Knowledge skills are a little more separate. After all, there is a (theoretical) knowledge (nature) skill as well as an (applied) survival skill. So that one is less redundant, if you get it past whoever the GM is in this scenario. It would mostly cover stuff like recognizing dance styles, knowing the history of dancing etc. You might even try for knowledge (art)...The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!