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2017-05-16, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
That panel where the priest donned the Garments of Supreme Leadership had me snort. What a clever callback.
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2017-05-16, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
The part of the story that grips me the most, and probably always will I imagine, is O-Chul's childhood origin.
It would have been a massive cliche to take the easy way out and write him as an earnest do-gooder from the onset. Most writers I wager would have had little issue with showing a child version of O-Chul being just as righteous, self-assured, and kind towards others as he is both in the current story and in main comic. I do not wish to imply that it would have been a bad idea to have always shown him as such; but nevertheless, it would have made for a less compelling story
This twist though... it offers a different perspective on a character that embodies Lawful and Good moreso than any other in this story. Simply knowing that he wasn't always the paragon; that he was, in fact, a mere lowlife criminal, is a facet to his story that encapsulates all that the man stands for. Showing us that THE PALADIN needed someone else, a complete stranger who had absolutely no reason to care for his future or well-being, to help him find another way to live is an immensely powerful moment.
O-Chul isn't just a shining beacon of just (in the lawful sense) kindness, he is also a man who was once the antithesis of what he has become in the years since his childhood. That he strives to repay the debt that he feels he owes the world for his misdeeds (and that, in a sense, he feels he can never truly repay the nameless Sergeant for his kindness) regardless of the difficulty or adversity makes for a remarkably uplifting story.
A story, I feel, that we didn't know that we needed. Until now.
...I'll stop gushing now.R.I.P. Wrecan, he was a true organizer and a gentleman.
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2017-05-16, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
I feel bad for saying it, but did anyone else get a bit of a Mary Sue vibe from O-Chul in this story?
(I mean Mary Sue the concept, not Mary_Sue the forumite, for the avoidance of doubt).GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2017-05-16, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
You make good points. I love that O-Chul has this background too. But I feel like it's not precisely about O-Chul previously being the exact antithesis of his current self. I think that this portrayal of him makes at least some people in the criminal world more sympathetic.
O-Chul's parents aren't sympathetic, in my opinion (simply based on what we see; perhaps they were also raised terribly). Their sickly 12-year-old son is right beside a big bag of gold. It doesn't seem that they were stealing just so they could afford to raise him. Rather, it looks like they stole and killed just to have wealth, and were training their son to be a money-maker without caring about his overall wellbeing. But, if they hadn't been caught, O-Chul presumably would've grown up to be a criminal. And that would've been largely due to his upbringing rather than much personal fault. Like Auntie O said about Zhou, he "had hard stuff happen" to him.
Through that lens, O-Chul's stern upholding of the law can be seen as his way to rescue people from a criminal life. The childhood that he knew was terrible, and when given a chance for something better he turned out to be capable of it. There was good in him, good that needed to be nurtured. In that sense, I don't think he was once the "antithesis" of what he eventually became.
Doesn't this give us amazing insight into so many other interactions between O-Chul and various OotS characters, particularly the creature in the darkness?
Anyway, I love that the main message at the heart of all this was about all life being inherently valuable. Hinjo said: "Our gods teach us that life is sacred and that individual people—even from different cultures—have inherent worth and dignity that should be respected." In the end, it may not have amount to much as a negotiation tactic... but I loved that he tried to explain it anyway. His articulation of that had a place in the comic, alongside the embodiments of that ethic that showed the values he spoke of in concrete terms.
I certainly didn't get a Mary Sue vibe. He's a good man who had a difficult childhood. He clearly didn't instantly change to the straight and narrow, as we can see from his arguments with his auntie. But time and effort forged him into someone with integrity. It's clear to see why the qualities he has would impress some people and fail to move others. (To me, one of the clearest marks of a Sue is that the only way we can identify the people we're supposed to like is that they like the Sue, and the people we're supposed to dislike dislike the Sue. They have no clear qualities of their own except that which is supposed to reflect on the Sue, no purpose in the story except to act as ornaments for a character so poorly written that we need other characters to tell us we should like him or her.)Last edited by Estelindis; 2017-05-16 at 10:52 AM.
"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point."
~~~ C. S. LewisFirst Mate on board Hinjo's Junk
Theological Advisor of the Hinjo Fan Club
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2017-05-16, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
No, not a hint. He earns the admiration of those around him the hard way, he is not given powers beyond those of the other characters, and he is not a raging hypocrite.
Yes, he is practically inhumanly ethical, but that's not actually a Mary Sue characteristic. Quite the opposite, really - they tend to be "the rules don't apply to me, 'cause I'm special".
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2017-05-16, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sharangar's Revenge
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
You're only saying that because you and she share a first initial. (But you're right. Zhou is amazing!) I loved how O'Chul didn't even need to clarifiy what he was asking her before they went out the window!
I also loved how O'Chul described who survived the initial attack to downplay his own importance in driving the hobgoblins off. "And a horse." And he knew the hobgoblin's names, while Saha just called them "what's-his-name".
It looks like Sir Francois is there as well, but we all know he has red hair, so it couldn't be him. I'm sure if this was colored, the Sir Francois look-a-like would be revealed to have blue hair.
So many other great things.
Thanks Heaps, Giant!Last edited by Lord Torath; 2017-05-16 at 11:06 AM.
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2017-05-16, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
I could certainly see the point of an adoption even though it does not grant all rights expected of a natural born child. The emotional aspect of Shojo saying "I consider myself your father" might be large enough.
The reason why I don't think there is a rule against female monarchs is that it seems to prejudiced for the Giant's tastes. I seem to recall a post by him where he argues against including all real world medieval prejudices into a fantasy world just for the sake of realism. And the Giant also seem concerned about inclusivity in general, whether it's race, sexuality or gender.
I don't think we will ever get a straight answer to this so here goes my guess/headcanon: The Lord of Azure City has the right to appoint any adult as their successor, but the choice must be approved by the Council of Nobles. After said approval the heir is officially inducted and succeeds automatically when the previous monarch dies. The heir is generally expected to, but does not have to be, a child or close relative of the monarch.
The nobles would not be expected to accept Miko as heir, and she also is not interested in the position herself, so Hinjo continues to be the presumptive heir.
That's just my idea, anyone who prefers a different explanation can go with another.
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2017-05-16, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Option 2 seems the most plausible to me, so it's what I'm going to assume unless it's stated otherwise somewhere. Add in a side order of "Hinjo is showing a lot more promise in developing leadership skills than Miko." I actually see his reasoning as mirroring that of Xykon's ex-boss at Helldeathdoomfire Volcano; powerful, but better in a subordinate position where someone smarter can aim them at an appropriate target.
I can't help but notice a certain recurring theme in the many people O-Chul finds himself running afoul of in this story: a refusal to take responsibility for consequences on the technicality that the other guy might decide to do differently. The Ettin, Gin-Jun, even Sato (when she comes to O-Chul's hideout in the night, though at least she admits it when called on it) all make the argument that the repercussions of their actions aren't technically inevitable. Yes, the Left Head might stop attacking of his own volition and the Hobgoblins might just surrender, but those are wildly improbable responses.
Just something about the contrast between someone who's willing to go the extra mile to see things from another's perspective, not just the big plot, but smaller moments, like seeing that the Hobgoblins chief is too much of a cynic to accept Hinjo's idealistic motives.
(There's also the hypocrisy of being willing to use the likely reaction when it's to their advantage; the angel will not agree to attack the Hobgoblins, but Gin-Jun is willing to run with the assumption that the Hobgoblins will attack the angel when she attempts to dismantle the gate and that she will defend herself with deadly force.)
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2017-05-16, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Really? I felt the exact opposite. O-Chul's backstory is one of the few parts of the story that didn't work for me because it felt so cliched.
Not quite Mary Sue, but I can't help but feel that the writing for O-Chul and Miko has been tampered slightly by the readers' caricatured perceptions and memes of the characters. Similar to how Yoda spoke more with his tic in the prequels.
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2017-05-16, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
The reference with Nguyen is that when you have broken ribs, you shouldn't talk because it's bad for you.
Need a definition of "Mary Sue" to answer the question. Is a Mary Sue a character who is extremely competent? Extremely good? In either cases, yes, but the idea that there's something wrong with writing "Mary Sues" needs to die.
Is a Mary Sue a character who distorts the world around themself, causing other people or the world itself to act out of character so as to implausibly keep the spotlight on the Mary Sue? In that case, there's clearly something wrong with writing Mary Sues, but O-Chul is nowhere near being one.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-05-16, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
O-Chul in this story is pretty much perfectly consistent with his presentation in the main comic. He's the example of LG alignment as it should be, far more than Roy, Lien, Hinjo, or anyone else we've really seen. O-Chul is beautifully ethical, kind, and humble.
I suspect part of the reason some might see O-Chul as being a Mary Sue here, when I have no doubts that they do not see him that way in the main comic, is quite simple: he's the protagonist in this.
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2017-05-16, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Maybe my definition of Mary Sue is too broad. The part that first brought the idea to mind is where he takes over diplomacy from Hinjo and does better at it, despite Hinjo being the trained diplomat on the team. Yes, Hinjo is inexperienced, so it's not entirely without justification, but even so it's fairly classic Sue behaviour to muscle in on what is explicitly another character's turf and do it better. And then to add insult to injury, he explains to Hinjo why that technique was successful where Hinjo's wasn't, because clearly that needed doing.
Indeed it seems at times that the other charactes only exist in order to give O-Chul opportunities to demonstrate how great he is. Mrs. Kapoor does solve a couple of problems that O-Chul couldn't, but there's also that sequence where she basically opens a conversation with "So O-Chul, I'd really like to hear some exposition of your background!" to give him the cue to tell us his childhood story.
And throughout the story he comes across as pretty much perfect. He's the best officer his commander has available. His diplomacy skills are unparalleled. He wins round the Sapphire Guard, causing them to mutiny against their commander - including Miko, the commander's protégé - in a matter of minutes. He has the best moral compass of anyone in the story including the actual celestial. And at the end he's the one who has to clean up the order of paladins. I understand that he's meant to be a model paladin but I can't see anything really approximating a character flaw or vulnerability in this story. The only thing he does which is even close to an error of judgment is tying up the hobgoblins, but that was both entirely reasonable in the circumstances (so doesn't really qualify as a mistake) and ends up having no negative consequences anyway.
Maybe I missed or have forgotten something, but the only character development for him happens before this story actually starts, which for an origin story seems strange.Last edited by Aedilred; 2017-05-16 at 11:24 AM.
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2017-05-16, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
'Flawless' characters and Mary Sues are NOT synonyms any more than "Surprise Endings" and "Deus ex Machina" are synonyms.
(I would also point out that O-Chul had to be convinced to do things AND had to be confronted with the ramifications of his actions)
===
I would also add that, strictly speaking, Mary Sues can ONLY exist in fan fiction as 'warping a pre-established universe to suit the authors wish fulfillment' is rather central to the whole point of Mary Sues.
========
Edited to add:
The knock against 'flawless characters' is that they are allegedly uninteresting to read about. Yet one of the most iconic characters in all of American Fiction is nearly the text book definition of flawless: Superman.
And, yes, plenty of people have claimed he is a uninteresting character. Yet it perhaps is unsurprising that the author of OOTS is NOT one of the people who hold that opinion.
What makes Superman interesting is when he is put in a situation where his views are challenged and he had to come up with a solution that doesn't just involve smashing his way out.
In the same way a Whodunnit is about figuring out what the mystery is, what makes a Superman story good is seeing how he navigates the personal challenges while upholding his ideals and role model for others. In a sense, the story is not: Will Superman 'Win', but How Will Superman Solve the Problem in a Just Way?
Much like O-Chul, one might say.
NB: Character Development is not the same as Character Growth/Change.
Finding out what makes a character tick is character development as one literally finding out more about them. That is, the character is being developed/
Also, following the adventures in a character in a seminal point of their lives is also character development, as you see what a character did and why during important moments.
Did O-Chul 'change' at all during HtPGHS? Debatable. I would say that already present characteristics were refined. Which is one of the things that makes it a great story.Last edited by Porthos; 2017-05-16 at 11:46 AM.
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2017-05-16, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
I read this differently. Hinjo does a good job, but his training hasn't prepared him to negotiate with hobgoblins like it has to negotiate with Azurites. When O-Chul explains why his approach worked better, it's to help Hinjo if he should end up in this situation again.
I felt like Saha Kapoor's willingness to listen to O-Chul spoke well of her character. She seems stern and deadpan in general, but this showed a softer side. She even spoke in such a way as to encourage him to confide in her. To me, this wasn't just about showing his character but also about showing hers.
I am sympathetic to your point. O-Chul does very well. However, I feel like an actual "perfect" character would've instantly come up with a solution that advantaged everyone and resulted in no one being injured or killed. That would be boring. What I actually read didn't bore me. There were dangerous times where it seemed like success was impossible and lots of people were in real danger.
To me, the overall message of this story is one of hope. It says that peace can win over war (at least, for a while). It says that you can try to be good and still achieve success. For me, the victory is for a certain way of life that O-Chul happens to embody, not for O-Chul himself."Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point."
~~~ C. S. LewisFirst Mate on board Hinjo's Junk
Theological Advisor of the Hinjo Fan Club
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2017-05-16, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
This is where my Superman analogy of 'How will O-Chul figure out a Just way to solve the problem' comes into play.
O-Chul didn't have an answer right away, as you note. In fact, his first solution would have been a catastrophic failure. It was only after listening to others (and a rather well timed intervention) did he strike on a solution.
And even there, he came pretty close to kicking the bucket.Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2017-05-16, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
While I think the standard, generally-accepted definition of "Mary Sue" has moved beyond its original narrow remit and certainly beyond the realm of fanfiction (to a point where, arguably, it has lost a lot of its meaning) I'm prepared to accept that, semantically at least, O-Chul here doesn't fit the mould. So can we leave that point behind and focus on the substance of the criticism rather than the labelling?
Yes, Superman is an iconic character and has few if any character flaws. But there are also a lot of really terrible, boring, Superman stories: the guy hasn't been done successfully in cinema since the 70s - and not every flawless character is as iconic as Superman. Indeed he's probably the exception there, rather than the rule, and not a particularly stable exception at that.
So while flawless characters are not necessarily bad, they nevertheless I think need to be handled carefully, and that what is a tricky area to navigate has been done successfully on occasion before doesn't mean it automatically gets a pass.
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the story overall (although I do think it's my least favourite of the backer stories so far). But I did have some problems with the characterisation in particular.Last edited by Aedilred; 2017-05-16 at 11:55 AM.
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2017-05-16, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Also - does anyone get what's going on at the end of page 52, with the card-playing hobgoblins? I initially thought it was showing Redcloak doing other stuff far away, but both of the characters are in hobgoblin boots, so that's not it. Is it just that the village priest is using high-grade abjurations to keep his silly card game honest?
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2017-05-16, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
It cannot be - the head paladin was convinced (convinced!) that RC was in the fortress because it was the only goblinoid settlement with an anti-scrying field.
I do believe that is RC and some other goblin chilling out at one of those points when Xykon is off doing other stuff.
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2017-05-16, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
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2017-05-16, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
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2017-05-16, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
You can see Redcloak's booties here.
(also that rain in the background suggest that the scene takes place at the rainy fortress seen a couple of times in SoD)Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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2017-05-16, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
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2017-05-16, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Yes.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-05-16 at 12:11 PM.
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2017-05-16, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Did you find it boring? Were there no times when you thought "I don't know how they'll get out of this?" Or did you find yourself uninterested by whether they succeeded or not? I would be interested by your comments in this regard.
I personally was drawn in by the story and found it almost perfectly paced. But taste is very subjective."Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point."
~~~ C. S. LewisFirst Mate on board Hinjo's Junk
Theological Advisor of the Hinjo Fan Club
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2017-05-16, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Much like most icons of pre-boomer nostalgia, 'flawless superman' is more an artifact of the comics code and ww2 propaganda than a real textual entity- if you actually go read the golden age version, he's anything but flawless. (And to be clear, I love that version.)
I would personally interpret the 'mary sue' as a character with no discernible weaknesses and no discernible flaws. It's perfectly possible to have a central protagonist that doesn't change, as long as you ask more and more from them by way of demonstrating their traits- which is to say, escalating sacrifice/risk, which requires some form of vulnerability.
I don't actually have the .pdf myself, so I can't really get into the details of what happens with O-Chul. But maybe that applies.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-05-16, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
This is the reason why I participated in the Kickstarter I don't know anymore how many years ago.
The story was amazing. Everything I could hope for.
I loved the POV shots from O-chul from the duel.
I just find strange that members of the SG could resign.
Thanks for the excellent work, Giant!Darn it Whisper !
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2017-05-16, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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2017-05-16, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Something that just occurred to me was that reminded me of Star Trek. The even-keeled leader with good but not perfect strategic instincts managing a gaggle of underlings of mixed competence and trustworthiness to try to bring peace to an area while doing as little damage as possible.
!
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2017-05-16, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-05-16, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)
And throughout the story he comes across as pretty much perfect. He's the best officer his commander has available. His diplomacy skills are unparalleled. He wins round the Sapphire Guard, causing them to mutiny against their commander - including Miko, the commander's protégé - in a matter of minutes. He has the best moral compass of anyone in the story including the actual celestial. And at the end he's the one who has to clean up the order of paladins. I understand that he's meant to be a model paladin but I can't see anything really approximating a character flaw or vulnerability in this story. The only thing he does which is even close to an error of judgment is tying up the hobgoblins, but that was both entirely reasonable in the circumstances (so doesn't really qualify as a mistake) and ends up having no negative consequences anyway.
But part of the reason it seems this way is because of O Chul's perspective on living with adversity. Life deals him some really bad cards, and he makes the best of them and learns from them.
I would also argue is that one of O Chul's flaws is also his greatest strength, which is his willingness to put himself in harm's way to protect others. Mortal danger is ultimately the undesirable result of that flaw, and there are quite a few situations where he does things that are tactically stupid and abusable because they are the right thing to do. But because it's an origin story, there is no true risk of mortal danger.
Also, side note that was a really cool touch that didn't click for me until just now: O Chul is Korean. The nomenclature of the family names and him calling his father's sister "Gomo" were nice little indicators.Last edited by busterswd; 2017-05-16 at 12:56 PM.