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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I'll probably regret putting my 2 cp into this, but I always understood that the thing that distinguishes a Mary Sue is that their skills (either in quantity, degree, or both) far exceed what the setting and narrative warrant. I don't think O-Chul meets that standard: his insights into the way the Hobgoblin Chief or the Paladins serving under Gin-Jun are born of what he's seen in his dozen years as a soldier.

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    The "no female rulers" part might actually be it, though. That would explain why it's Shinjo's nephew who's expected to be his heir, rather than his sister.
    It could also be that his sister was older, or just in poor health. We know she died before the main story, after all.

    Anyway, all I can say about the story is this: Thank you, Rich. Thank you very much.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I don't have any shocking analysis to contribute; pretty sure all that can be praised has been, but I do have a typo;

    P. 74, Panel 9 "victoy" instead of "victory."

    Hadn't seen this one reported yet.
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    I really would rather Tarquin finally just went all George R. R. Martin on Nale.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Just got home from work and plunged right into this. Sooooo awesome. Thanks Giant.

    As they say he who waits for something good doen'st wait too long.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
    Did you find it boring? Were there no times when you thought "I don't know how they'll get out of this?" Or did you find yourself uninterested by whether they succeeded or not? I would be interested by your comments in this regard.

    I personally was drawn in by the story and found it almost perfectly paced. But taste is very subjective.
    There were times when I found it, if not "boring" per se, at least to be dragging a bit. It seemed like there were a few occasions where the characters just stood or sat around and blathered about the rights and wrongs of what they or other people were doing for longer than necessary. This even extended to sequences like fighting the Ettin, which I felt went on a bit long.

    I suspect that the medium has something to do with this. In the webcomic, most strips are the equivalent of a page in this book, or two at most. Because of the episodic format, the Ettin would probably have been dispensed with in one or at most two pages. Here because there was no such limitation, there was less impetus to distill the fight for maximum comedic and/or satirical punch, and I thought it outstayed its welcome as well as becoming rather heavy-handed. The same probably goes for a number of the dialogue scenes, and there were some pages that might have been cut altogether for the webcomic (page 26, for instance).

    I am aware that this is not a webcomic story and that the format offers opportunities to do things differently, but I'm not sure those opportunities were always used to best effect. In fact I think this is a problem with many of the longer OotS publications: I thought Origin and (the relatively short) Spoiler Alert had some of the same problems. I don't think a bit of editing would have gone amiss and the story could probably have been reduced in length without losing much if anything of value.

    With its being a prequel, obviously at no point did I feel Hinjo or O-Chul were in peril. I didn't really care that much about either of the other principal human characters (and the "fakeout death" for Mrs. Kapoor did nothing for me, and the same goes for the later "graveyard fakeout" with Zhou). I was taken aback by Pangtok's death, but the earlier bit with Mrs. Kapoor had lulled me into thinking that most of the characters were going to emerge unscathed.

    I did wonder how they were going to resolve the situation, but the characters themselves weren't in any direct peril - they were only going to get hurt if they chose to involve themselves - so the problem lacked real immediacy for me. And the situation also seemed contrived to be unnecessarily hard to resolve, with the Sapphire Guard commander as an even less reasonable version of Miko, completely impervious to any kind of sense, and also with a superweapon at his disposal. I did not anticipate O-Chul's method of solving the problem (I had expected him to do a Rocky and wear down Gin-Jun over the course of the duel). Moreover, the whole duel thing itself came out of nowhere, since it hadn't been mentioned until that point (that I noticed) and moreover the technicality of Hinjo's invoking it rather than O-Chul's didn't make a lot of sense given Hinjo told us only a couple of pages before that he was of a different clan to O-Chul and Gin-Jun and therefore would presumably not have any tradition of gyeoltu anyway. I won't go so far as to call it a deus ex machina since it did not in itself resolve the plot but it seemed like the plot backed itself into a corner and had to handwave its way out a bit.

    I also have to admit that I didn't find the story particularly funny. There were certainly moments that made me smile, but for most of its length it seemed rather wrapped up in its own importance, and some of the attempts at levity were weak, imo. It's unusual for OotS not to be entertaining in that sense even when it is dealing with weightier issues. The OotS can be a bit preachy at times, but it doesn't tend to get bogged down in it too badly or for too long, whereas I think this story did.

    The above probably comes across as harsh, and maybe it is. I certainly don't think it was bad per se, but I didn't think it measured up to the high standard set by most of the rest of the OotS works.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    I also have to admit that I didn't find the story particularly funny. There were certainly moments that made me smile, but for most of its length it seemed rather wrapped up in its own importance, and some of the attempts at levity were weak, imo. It's unusual for OotS not to be entertaining in that sense even when it is dealing with weightier issues. The OotS can be a bit preachy at times, but it doesn't tend to get bogged down in it too badly or for too long, whereas I think this story did.
    I actually feel that shoehorning absurdist comedy into stories that try to deal seriously with remarkable bloody and sordid subject material can be one of OOTS weaker points, so that might be more a feature than a bug. But again, haven't read the .pdf.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I just noticed at the top of pg 55(56?) a reference to Fiddler on the Roof: "Horse!" "Mule!" "Horse!" "Mule!"

    Was it deliberate? Probably not. But it made me laugh.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nith View Post
    She has been legally adopted by the adoption was done under specific terms, including that she couldn't inherit the lordship of the city. Maybe to appease nobles, who we know are influential and often very conservative. The problem being not that she was a woman but that she wasn't of noble birth.
    Miko was of noble birth, merely orphaned at a young age.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Hey guys. This is the all-spoiler thread for talking about the O-Chul prequel story that I just dropped into your inbox, if you were a Kickstarter backer
    Rich, this was every bit worth the wait. I love that O'Chul's scar (near his eye) is kept as a perpetual reminder of his duty, in a similar way to how Redcloak's patched eye serves as a perpetual reminder of his brother. They serve as neat counterpoints to each other.

    O'Chul has always been a favorite character of mine, and its great to see his deepened backstory here.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Wait, what is Spoiler Alert?
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Spoiler Alert is the Therkla short story.

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    d20 Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Ah, yes. Good one, too. Thank you.

    But back on topic, this is a great story, and I liked all the callbacks. or callforwards, I guess. Surprised Gin-Jun didn't fall, though...
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    There were times when I found it, if not "boring" per se, at least to be dragging a bit. It seemed like there were a few occasions where the characters just stood or sat around and blathered about the rights and wrongs of what they or other people were doing for longer than necessary. This even extended to sequences like fighting the Ettin, which I felt went on a bit long. <snip
    Thanks for sharing your experience in detail. I find it really interesting how different our experiences were. For instance, I liked the ettin encounter precisely because of its verbosity. The length of the attempt at sophistry was absurd and funny to me. And the times when they sat around and talked about right and wrong really resonated with me, because I think about that stuff a lot. I really appreciate you showing your point of view, as it highlights how one work can be many things to different people.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    There were times when I found it, if not "boring" per se, at least to be dragging a bit. It seemed like there were a few occasions where the characters just stood or sat around and blathered about the rights and wrongs of what they or other people were doing for longer than necessary. This even extended to sequences like fighting the Ettin, which I felt went on a bit long.
    It did seem to start lagging in a couple places, including the sequence with the ettin. I think it was supposed be symbolic of the "if you say it's wrong, but willingly go along with it anyway, do you really think it's wrong?" theme; but that was kind of complex to set up and drag the fight along with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    I didn't really care that much about either of the other principal human characters (and the "fakeout death" for Mrs. Kapoor did nothing for me, and the same goes for the later "graveyard fakeout" with Zhou). I was taken aback by Pangtok's death, but the earlier bit with Mrs. Kapoor had lulled me into thinking that most of the characters were going to emerge unscathed.
    Such lulling may have been the intent of Saha's fakeout death. I'm pretty sure Zhou's was simply parodying the "gravestone as implied death for the ending" type of scene.
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I really enjoyed this. It was a little less funny than the main story (though it still had its share of laughs and silly characters), but I think that's fine, given that O-Chul himself was never the funniest character, and it is very much his tale. I guess what I didn't expect going in, but I realized about halfway through, is that this was at least partially designed to reconcile the great problem of the Sapphire Guard: How can they have been the shining, virtuous heroes they mostly were in the story proper and also the bloodthirsty thugs they were in Redcloak's origin? The answer, of course we now know, is O-Chul himself. It seems likely that his promotion to Sapphire Guard, along with Hinjo's joining of the ranks, allowed commoners to join as well as brought some decency and ethics to the organization.

    While O-Chul does come across as uncommonly virtuous, I don't really see this as a problem. While everyone has flaws (and I'm sure O-Chul would gladly point out some of his own), the idea that a person being truly decent is unrealistic strikes me as little more than edgy cynicism. The fact is, for all his goodness, O-Chul makes decisions that are controversial, even among his friends, and while he does inspire some people to be better, it's hardly the case that his goodness magically fixes everything. Trying to do the right thing and save everyone is a hard, hard road, and there's usually a price to pay, whether it's the respect of your friends, the lives of innocents, or a big old nasty scar across your face.

    And while we are forbidden from political talk here, I do get the impression the story, particularly O-Chul's speech at the end, was given to airing some of Mr. Burlew's grievances about the world we now live in, perhaps giving some sense of comfort or inspiration to others who feel similarly. Can't say more on that front.

    Overall, I found this to be a fine addition to the Stickverse, and I'll probably read it again soon.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    It kind of felt like we where supposed to know the rangers daughter, is she someone who has shown up in the comic?

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Fantastic story. O-Chul has always been an engaging, interesting character and now he's fleshed out even more making him even more enjoyable.

    But Miko has always been my favorite character and seeing her again was definitely the highlight of the story for me!

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    It kind of felt like we where supposed to know the rangers daughter, is she someone who has shown up in the comic?
    I don't think so; the only ethnically Indian ('What is this "India" you speak of?') people we've seen have been stuff like the one panel from the montage in which Hinjo talks about the various Southern nations they've talked to.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2017-05-16 at 03:52 PM. Reason: grammar fix

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I noticed something interesting. O-Chuls reasoning when it comes to ethics seems to be fairly consequentialist, more specifically, utilitarian. He opposes fighting the hobgoblins since it might lead to war. He argues with Gin-Jun about the ethics of attacking the hobgoblins: Killing them leads to hobgoblin attacks against innocent farmers. Gin-Jun, on the other hand, argues that they only fight in self-defense, and any actions by the hobgoblins are on their conscience. He seems to likely adapt a more deontological view.

    Also note that Gin-Jun justifies killing non-Evil hobgoblins with "They are part of an Evil society". This strikes me as him worrying about the hobgoblins' moral character and less about the actual consequences of killing them. He also seems to consider himself a virtuous man, so perhaps he adheres to some sort of self-rightous brand of virtue ethics, where destroying Evil is right.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Thank you for that great story! I also really hope that helps a bit against some negative vibes coming from some Kickstarter backers.

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    I really hope for a release as a regular print book. I can only say I would really love to add this to my print collection

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    I don't think so; the only ethnically Indian ('What is this "India" you speak of?') people we've seen have been stuff like the one panel montage in which Hinjo talks about the various Southern nations they've talked to.
    which reminds me. the scene near the start where the general(?) says "We sympasyze with your plight but we can do nothing to actually help you" or something of the sort is AWFULLY REMINICENT of the Azurites looking for help after being exiled to a boat-city :P
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    I noticed something interesting. O-Chuls reasoning when it comes to ethics seems to be fairly consequentialist, more specifically, utilitarian. He opposes fighting the hobgoblins since it might lead to war. He argues with Gin-Jun about the ethics of attacking the hobgoblins: Killing them leads to hobgoblin attacks against innocent farmers. Gin-Jun, on the other hand, argues that they only fight in self-defense, and any actions by the hobgoblins are on their conscience. He seems to likely adapt a more deontological view.

    Also note that Gin-Jun justifies killing non-Evil hobgoblins with "They are part of an Evil society". This strikes me as him worrying about the hobgoblins' moral character and less about the actual consequences of killing them. He also seems to consider himself a virtuous man, so perhaps he adheres to some sort of self-rightous brand of virtue ethics, where destroying Evil is right.
    O-Chul argues on utilitarian grounds because he thinks that will be what gets through to the people he's talking to: soldiers, warlords, and the like.

    Plus, it makes for clearer storytelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    which reminds me. the scene near the start where the general(?) says "We sympasyze with your plight but we can do nothing to actually help you" or something of the sort is AWFULLY REMINICENT of the Azurites looking for help after being exiled to a boat-city :P
    Since these events take place before those, would it be preminiscent?
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2017-05-16 at 03:54 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    He opposes fighting the hobgoblins since it might lead to war. He argues with Gin-Jun about the ethics of attacking the hobgoblins: Killing them leads to hobgoblin attacks against innocent farmers.
    This is the argument he provides initially but when pushed his reasoning is a lot simpler - the goblins have the potential to be good if treated good. It's what saved his life as a child and is the motivating force behind everything he does - providing second chances to those who need it, believing in those who have given you no reason to believe in them, because you usually cause more good than harm by doing so.

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    By the way, I just caught a piece of personal irony: I keep reading Mrs. Kapoor's lines in my aunt's voice (who speaks with a Bombay accent), but the line "Sorry, I suck at healing," is funny because my aunt is a doctor.

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
    Thanks for sharing your experience in detail. I find it really interesting how different our experiences were. For instance, I liked the ettin encounter precisely because of its verbosity. The length of the attempt at sophistry was absurd and funny to me. And the times when they sat around and talked about right and wrong really resonated with me, because I think about that stuff a lot. I really appreciate you showing your point of view, as it highlights how one work can be many things to different people.
    Thanks; I'm glad we've been able to have a civil discussion at least

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It did seem to start lagging in a couple places, including the sequence with the ettin. I think it was supposed be symbolic of the "if you say it's wrong, but willingly go along with it anyway, do you really think it's wrong?" theme; but that was kind of complex to set up and drag the fight along with.
    I got the impression that the intention of that scene was at least in part to parody a particular trend in internet argumentation deployed by certain groups. Most notably, I think, the ettin's final line is telling. Given the much-discussed decision on Rich's part (acknowledged even within the comic text) to cut down on casual misogynistic insults thrown around by characters it's hard to read the choice of words there as anything but deliberate. And from what we know about Rich's views on such matters, such an interpretation would appear entirely consistent with them.

    If I'm right about the intention there, then I have no more love of such types than he does, but having picked up the parody about four or five panels into the ettin's appearance, I felt like much of the rest was belabouring the point and could have been tightened up rather.

    Such lulling may have been the intent of Saha's fakeout death. I'm pretty sure Zhou's was simply parodying the "gravestone as implied death for the ending" type of scene.
    I imagine so too, but having seen Hot Fuzz more times than I care to think about, not to mention Winter Soldier and that Sherlock episode I feel like the "gravestone as implied death" scene is these days used as parody more often than not, so it didn't work all that well for me, the "ominous" five panels leading up to it feeling like something of a waste.
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    O-Chul argues on utilitarian grounds because he thinks that will be what gets through to the people he's talking to: soldiers, warlords, and the like.
    I think he actually believes it though. For instance, "I do not give a damn about the ethical ramifications of revenge! I just want to save lives!" Of course, it is fairly safe to assume that O-Chul's brand of utilitarianism would be fairly strict, and in line with what a paladin might believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    [...]because you usually cause more good than harm by doing so.
    Still consequentialism, and arguably utilitarianism. He seeks the actions that are best for everyone, including goblins and hobgoblins. "But you are so concerned with whether or not your actions are Good you have forgotten whether or not they are for the best." Also, O-Chul is willing to lie if he believes it serves the greater good (see: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Looks like this will have been worth the wait. Unfortunately, as a non-Kickstarter backer it will be a little more of a wait for me, but I am definitely prepared to give anything to get a hold of the unlimited publication.


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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Something I just thought about: if there was an honorific along the lines of "Qui", the paladin commander would be Qui Gin-Jun.

    Now I imagine him wielding a lightsabre.

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    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    I found a continuity error. Hinjo is 16 here. The year is 1171, twenty two years after Redcloak assumed his title. Which means Hinjo was born in 1155, making him the same age as Miko and Roy. Was this intended?
    I don't think that's a continuity error, so much as "continuity". While I'd never given any thought to Hinjo's age, if asked I would have placed him at about the same age as the human OotS members, who are all (iirc) mid to late 20s. By the time of the main comic he is clearly not a complete novice but nor does he give the impression of being a grizzled veteran, so that would seem about right.

    Something that this story did make me wonder is who became commander of the Sapphire Guard after Gin-Jun - or more specifically, who the commander was at the time of the comic. They answer to Shojo, but he is presenting himself as mentally incapable so one presumes there would be a Guard commander too, if only for administrative reasons. Yet Hinjo assumes command after Shojo is killed - and Hinjo himself seemed to be outranked by Miko before that, as she was giving him orders in his first appearance. There's no indication of other command structure, save that O-Chul himself seems to be of officer-equivalent rank by the time of the attack on Azure City. I suppose the title of commander might have been abolished or left vacant at some point in an attempt to limit the independence of the Guard, and Shojo's apparent incapacity was a useful bonus in restraining them. Maybe Sato took over in the short term but was not replaced when she retired/died as by that point Shojo wasn't "fit" to appoint a replacement (assuming there's nothing else in the comic which would contradict that).
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  30. - Top - End - #150
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Sep 2007

    Default Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

    I enjoyed the story and I am very grateful that such a long and complex story is added as a bonus to the Kickstarter campaign. Honestly, I thoght these bonus comics would be 8-10 pages, maximum. From all Kickstarters I backed, the OotS-one ist the one I am getting the most out of for my money, easily.

    So again Mr. Burlew: thank you very much for all your hard work, it is appreciated.

    That said, I kind of agree with the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    There were times when I found it, if not "boring" per se, at least to be dragging a bit. It seemed like there were a few occasions where the characters just stood or sat around and blathered about the rights and wrongs of what they or other people were doing for longer than necessary. This even extended to sequences like fighting the Ettin, which I felt went on a bit long.

    (...)
    With its being a prequel, obviously at no point did I feel Hinjo or O-Chul were in peril. I didn't really care that much about either of the other principal human characters (and the "fakeout death" for Mrs. Kapoor did nothing for me, and the same goes for the later "graveyard fakeout" with Zhou). I was taken aback by Pangtok's death, but the earlier bit with Mrs. Kapoor had lulled me into thinking that most of the characters were going to emerge unscathed.

    I did wonder how they were going to resolve the situation, but the characters themselves weren't in any direct peril - they were only going to get hurt if they chose to involve themselves - so the problem lacked real immediacy for me. And the situation also seemed contrived to be unnecessarily hard to resolve, with the Sapphire Guard commander as an even less reasonable version of Miko, completely impervious to any kind of sense, and also with a superweapon at his disposal. I did not anticipate O-Chul's method of solving the problem (I had expected him to do a Rocky and wear down Gin-Jun over the course of the duel). Moreover, the whole duel thing itself came out of nowhere, since it hadn't been mentioned until that point (that I noticed) and moreover the technicality of Hinjo's invoking it rather than O-Chul's didn't make a lot of sense given Hinjo told us only a couple of pages before that he was of a different clan to O-Chul and Gin-Jun and therefore would presumably not have any tradition of gyeoltu anyway. I won't go so far as to call it a deus ex machina since it did not in itself resolve the plot but it seemed like the plot backed itself into a corner and had to handwave its way out a bit.

    I also have to admit that I didn't find the story particularly funny. There were certainly moments that made me smile, but for most of its length it seemed rather wrapped up in its own importance, and some of the attempts at levity were weak, imo. It's unusual for OotS not to be entertaining in that sense even when it is dealing with weightier issues. The OotS can be a bit preachy at times, but it doesn't tend to get bogged down in it too badly or for too long, whereas I think this story did.

    (...)
    It probably was an error to read the comments here before reading the story because I was immensely hyped before reading it and it fell short of that (self-induced) hype. It was less funny and more "on the nose" than I expected and O-Chul - easily one of my favourite characters from his appearance in the main comic - comes off as a bit too much for me.

    Still, that is a very minor critique. It is a good story, I liked it - it's just not my favourite and I certainly don't think it's on the same (very high) level as SoD.

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